Marth Match Up Thread. Being Redone Soon.

[Dart]

from what you say crimson blur im surprised not every falcon ive played has ever taken me there

 

[Niko45]

I really don't mind Kongo against fastfalling characters at all. What I do mind are characters like peach or jigglypuff there, because if they get a lead on that stage, it's just about impossible to win there. And its pretty common for them to get a lead, since that stage is absolutely enormous.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

from what you say crimson blur im surprised not every falcon ive played has never taken me there

Well Falcon has other good stages too. A lot of Falcons will take you to Dreamland or Pokemon Stadium instead. Some even counterpick FD. Kongo is probably Falcon's best stage in the matchup, but I'm sure some Falcons are more comfortable with a neutral like Dreamland.

But yeah, Kongo Jungle is really good for Falcon.

 

[P. O. F.]

Spacies will pick Pokemon Stadium all day anytime unless we ban it. I will probably never face a spacie on Kongo. lol.

As Marths, we should be banning Dreamland....always...unless it is a marth ditto. I kind of like Marth dittos there because Marths edge game is a bit diminished Vs Marth due to the wind. It usually messes my opponent up more so than me.

Yoshis Story is pretty much a hated marth ditto stage i've found generally.


Falcons pretty good on Kongo, definitely. I think hes better on Brinstar VS Marth though.

 

[Dart]

This is how it should be IMO

Fox/Falco: Ban PS, its random honestly and more times than not you are gonna get screwed over
Falcon:Ban DL or PS, falcon is deceptively good against marth on PS
Marth: i ban YS but thats just me.
Sheik: BF, you can hold up pretty well everywhere else
Ganon:DL...if you need to anyway...it really only lets him live longer
Peach: DL for obvious reasons
Puff: Brinstar, you can win everywhere else and not have a ruff time, just don't play against puff here ever

for everyone else theres master card/ johns/ im too lazy to think of more.

 

[P. O. F.]

I would argue Marth is good against Ganon on Dl.

We have a good edge game and rely on gimps....Ganon relies on quick kills and killing you asap. I think Marth prevails here.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

This is how it should be IMO

Fox/Falco: Ban PS, its random honestly and more times than not you are gonna get screwed over
Falcon:Ban DL or PS, falcon is deceptively good against marth on PS
Marth: i ban YS but thats just me.
Sheik: BF, you can hold up pretty well everywhere else
Ganon:DL...if you need to anyway...it really only lets him live longer
Peach: DL for obvious reasons
Puff: Brinstar, you can win everywhere else and not have a ruff time, just don't play against puff here ever

for everyone else theres master card/ johns/ im too lazy to think of more.

I agree with this for the most part though I ban DL against Fox/Falco. They are really good in Stadium in general, but they aren't nearly as dominant against Marth as other characters there. I like the initial transformations platforms; its generally a stage I like playing on. As far as counterpicks:

Fox/Falco: FD all day baybay; Fountain/Battlefield if its banned
Falcon: Fountain; YS/Battlefield if its banned
Marth: YS if I think he's a lot better than me and I need some tippers
Sheik: Yoshis. Stadium if its banned.
Ganon: Fountain or Yoshis
Peach: FD, Yoshis if its banned
Puff: Stadium, Yoshis if its banned

 

[P. O. F.]

Why would you take Peach to FD over Yoshis?

That's wrong....just wrong. FD is good but not as much as Yoshis.


I took two stocks off of Armada there. There is your evidence. lol.

 

[Niko45]

Falco is way way better on DL vs Marth than on Stadium...

Fox is pretty much equally good on DL/Stadium, player preference what you want to ban.

YS feels very random in Marth dittos, I usually go to FD.

Take Peach to FoD she sucks there for real (and ban DL). YS is good too.

Vs. Ganon DL is pretty good in my opinion just because Marth benefits from hugeness more (he kills a lot with dtilts and dairs which aren't dependent on stage size at all). I actually like FoD vs Ganon a lot...you have to watch out for dair through platforms but the actual KO barriers are surprisingly roomy on such a small stage.

Take puff to FoD or YS.

Take sheik to FoD.

I just find FoD to be fantastic for Marth and players in general are slightly less experienced on that stage than they are on other stages.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Why would you take Peach to FD over Yoshis?

That's wrong....just wrong. FD is good but not as much as Yoshis.


I took two stocks off of Armada there. There is your evidence. lol.

The biggest advantage of FD is that you can keep her in the air for entire stocks. Having a lot of space really lets you use your speed against her, and no platforms allows for some really good full-hop fair approaches. Overall, FD makes the matchup really simple and limits her mobility a lot.

Yoshis is good too ofc; you can kill her really early and Peach has even fewer options than other characters when she is above you on a platform. However, her recovery becomes a lot more complicated since she can take the top platform (its still not that hard tho tbh), whereas its pretty easy on FD, while your recovery gets no bonus at all from the added platform.

Either are good stages against her but I like FD a lot better.

 

[Niko45]

The biggest advantage of FD is that you can keep her in the air for entire stocks. Having a lot of space really lets you use your speed against her, and no platforms allows for some really good full-hop fair approaches. Overall, FD makes the matchup really simple and limits her mobility a lot.

Yoshis is good too ofc; you can kill her really early and Peach has even fewer options than other characters when she is above you on a platform. However, her recovery becomes a lot more complicated since she can take the top platform (its still not that hard tho tbh), whereas its pretty easy on FD, while your recovery gets no bonus at all from the added platform.

Either are good stages against her but I like FD a lot better.

This is all good and all but a spacious stage is not what you want against peach. She's going to have more opportunities to pull turnips which really complicate this matchup. While she has no platforms, FD is also an enormous stage overall. She is going to live a long long time here. YS and FoD are too small for her to safely pull turnips consistently and platforms here either bother her on FoD or give you tippers for added KO options on YS.

I said to pick FoD with the assumption that they will ban YS (they will).

 

[P. O. F.]

All in all I say

FD > for aerial traps and keeping her above you but you suffer horizontally.

Fod and YS > for anti camp purposes and faster kills.


I just had a wonderful idea.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

All in all I say

FD > for aerial traps and keeping her above you but you suffer horizontally.

Fod and YS > for anti camp purposes and faster kills.

Yeah, it really depends on how you like to play imo. Marth ***** Peach so hard it is tough to pick which stage you like most

I just had a wonderful idea.

Do tell.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

my cps:

fox: fd or yoshis or fod
falco: anything but battlefield or stadium
sheik: stadium or yoshis or fd
peach: ys, fod, fd
falcon: ys, fod, fd

 

[iDoLiZeD]

I believe Marth vs Pika is a good match between both sides. Pika can combo Marth pretty well.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Pika can combo Marth pretty well.

This is very very true.

also @ Sveet's CP list

Falco: I know Falcos are comfy with Battlefield and all, but I actually like the stage against them sorta. It limits their recovery options, plus the platforms aren't bad for you in offensively either. They're just good for Falco. Aside from that, I don't particularly like FoD vs platform-oriented Falcos. It's useful vs laser/movement Falcos, but his platform game (shield pressure and combos) on that stage is really good imo

Sheik: Forfeit the match (I like FoD, Yoshis, and FD). I'm not sure how I feel about PS; that stage normally just pisses me off to begin with, and Sheik pisses me off too, so I can imagine myself just getting angry during the match. I like FoD because of the low platforms (idk why, i just do) and easytech ledges if they like to run off->nair

side tangent: What do people think about FD vs Sheik? You can combo her pretty well on that stage, but.... she can do that back to you. However, Sheik's platform techchases are f**king annoying, so the lack of platforms is nice in that aspect, but eh.

Peach: Anything pretty much except DL and maybe FoD imo. I don't like FoD vs peach that much because of the wide blast zones, high ceiling, d-smash platforms, and less space to move around.

 

[Dart]

This is very very true.

also @ Sveet's CP list

Falco: I know Falcos are comfy with Battlefield and all, but I actually like the stage against them sorta. It limits their recovery options, plus the platforms aren't bad for you in offensively either. They're just good for Falco. Aside from that, I don't particularly like FoD vs platform-oriented Falcos. It's useful vs laser/movement Falcos, but his platform game (shield pressure and combos) on that stage is really good imo

Sheik: Forfeit the match (I like FoD, Yoshis, and FD). I'm not sure how I feel about PS; that stage normally just pisses me off to begin with, and Sheik pisses me off too, so I can imagine myself just getting angry during the match. I like FoD because of the low platforms (idk why, i just do) and easytech ledges if they like to run off->nair

side tangent: What do people think about FD vs Sheik? You can combo her pretty well on that stage, but.... she can do that back to you. However, Sheik's platform techchases are f**king annoying, so the lack of platforms is nice in that aspect, but eh.

Peach: Anything pretty much except DL and maybe FoD imo. I don't like FoD vs peach that much because of the wide blast zones, high ceiling, d-smash platforms, and less space to move around.

QFT if i knew you in real life i would buy you hookers for sex. thank you.

 

[Tee ay eye]

what are the real odds for sheik vs marth?

this is assuming the sheik knows how to play defensively and doesn't approach like a moron

 

[Tee ay eye]

edit: accidental DP

 

[P. O. F.]

I believe Marth vs Pika is a good match between both sides. Pika can combo Marth pretty well.

No, not at all. If the Marth is smart Pikachu really has little to no way to get in on Marth. His aerials don't even compete with Marth on any level. lol.

It's a 70-30 MU maybe 80-20.

what are the real odds for sheik vs marth?

this is assuming the sheik knows how to play defensively and doesn't approach like a moron

60-40. Although it may not seem like that its really pretty true. If Marth stays grounded and focuses on d tilt and retreating fairto get grabs it really is not too bad. You also have to try and mix up your DI from the D throw.....most of the time I DI in on the first d throw if I'm near the ledge because they expect the DI away for the free kill. Then I start mixing it up from there and DI all over the place. It's really our only hope once Sheik grabs us. Marths d tilt outranges everything she can do to us on the ground which is a godsend and if she dash attacks a CC ***** it for a free grab. If they approach from the air...u tilt. lol.

 

[Niko45]

Eh... I disagree about Pikachu. Just from playing N64 and watching Axe, its clearly a pretty decent matchup for Pikachu imo. Pika has a ton of punish and the argument that Marth can just wall characters out forever is kind of archaic at this point. Everybody finds ways in on Marth, its hard but not unreasonable since his moves lag/hitboxes don't stay out very long and people can anticipate and stuff. Plus pika has a projectile and is pretty mobile...he doesn't even seem like the best type of character to make a case for being unable to get in. It is hard, tho, which is why I'd say its more in the slight adv Marth - even range.

 

[Professor :3]

Poor POF. Trying to make a MU thread. Even though he sucks.

 

[ZoSo]

I've been playing and (I think) understanding this matchup (Sheik) a lot better lately, so I guess I'll post my thoughts.

Tai: Dtilt is pretty big in this matchup, as POF pointed out. Mostly you want to focus on establishing stage control with your dash dance and dtilt. Be prepared for needles at all times. I see a lot of players get hit by needles for no reason because they were doing dumb stuff across the stage. CC'ing is a boon in this matchup, so avoid needlessly taking damage. Stay out of the air as much as possible. If you're going to jump, you need to keep it compact since she can easily pick you apart once she gets you above her. Before you jump, consider asking yourself what you intend to land on.

90% of Sheiks just want to grab you in this matchup, so you need to do everything you can to abuse that. Late fair, L-cancel, dash away against shields. Intentionally underspacing the fair will make you appear more vulnerable and consequently make them more likely to flinch. This is a really good bait and honestly works even against good Sheiks. If they smarten up and start holding their shield, L-cancel to grab. However, DON'T attempt this unless you're completely sure they're going to clam up. Another option is dtilting their shield. If you hold away during the dtilt, you will turn around on the IASA frame and be completely safe from shield grab unless you started it right in their face. I don't know the exact spacing, but if you have AR you could test it with frame perfect shield grabs and stuff. If you see that you're too close, you can try to time a dash away, which will often work even though it's not guaranteed because nobody shield grabs frame perfect. Just be aware that it's possible to get shield grabbed regardless of anything in this situation.

When you land a grab, you mostly want to stick to uthrow. On platform stages, it sets you up to play your platform game (you can cover every tech option including no-tech with a timely uair), which can lead to big damage if you can read their double jump. On FD, you can squeeze in an utilt if you time it well and they're bad at jumping out. If they're good at jumping out, they will probably do so, which puts them in a horrible position. There are other little things that you'll just have to devise counters for on the spot. For example, I believe M2K does neutral DI on the uthrow and falls with a nair. If you grab them at mid percents (40-60 or so), do uthrow > full jump fair and follow up accordingly. This is a really good setup that I stole from Tec0, but it only works if they DI the uthrow to either side. If you grab them at high percents where you can't connect with anything from an uthrow, you can either uthrow and just try to keep them in the air for as long as possible, or dthrow/fthrow and try to tech chase with a tipper or something. Stuff like this is kind of why this matchup is so gay, but I'll get to that later.

When edgeguarding, it's usually best to just play it safe. Edgehog, avoid their up-B poof with stand invincibility, punish accordingly. Usually you'll just end up dthrowing them off again. This should be your staple edgeguard against Sheik. However, this won't actually kill them, so eventually you'll have to do something fancy like waveland from the edge to tipper. If they're at a really high percent and you just want the kill, do reverse utilt (your sword should swing around and hit the top of their head as they're starting to stand up). You can also try to abuse their DI and do fthrow tipper, which works if they DI toward you. Obviously, this is dependent on your opponent and your ability to read their DI. If you see that they can't sweetspot, by which I mean they can't recover above the edge then aim down, you can just dtilt or tipper them as they appear. If they weren't very far off the stage, a lot of Sheiks will try to up-B immediately and sweetspot the edge. I think it's worth mentioning that you can punish this by fsmashing RIGHT at the edge as soon as possible. If you instead decided to just edgehog (which I recommend most of the time) and they recovered as far into the stage as possible, you can kill them with tipped fsmash or dsmash depending on their percent and how you read their DI. If they're not at a killable percent just grab or dash attack and follow up accordingly.

Eventually you will get grabbed. It sucks. Against bad Sheiks who pretty much only dthrow > ftilt, you can DI completely in either direction and smash DI the ftilt away to escape. Against good Sheiks, you're probably going to get ***** no matter what, but slight DI away is pretty effective at low percents. If they grab you with your back to the edge, just DI toward them because the last thing you want is to eat an offstage slap. You might eat an uair and die, but... them's the breaks. Sheik is gay.

When recovering, save your jump and try to stay out of zones where they can needle you. Sometimes you will have to recover extremely low to avoid an invincible bair. Try to recover onto the stage because they can drop, double jump bair, and regrab the edge to edgehog you. Obviously you'll want to grab the edge if you see an opportunity.

The sad reality of this matchup and the main thing that makes it gay is that you just don't have a safe, reliable way to kill Sheik at a reasonable percent. You have to do dumb stuff like kill them with utilts at 150%. Honestly, I've always tried to avoid playing the matchup in tourney (that might change soon), but I think it's completely doable. You just have to outplay them.

 

[Niko45]

I have a question Zoso:

If I stand from the ledge and sheik up Bs into the ledge am I just standing up too early or is there no way to actually cover the ledge while standing with ledge stand and you need to mix in rolls from the ledge to hold the ledge longer?

And just a general comment on being forced to kill her at 150+: I think all Marths should be advised to keep this in mind and avoid it at all costs. In situations where you have a lot of control (like a grab), its really important to be aware of how you are building damage on sheik and be very selective with what you hit her with. While its not avoidable to deal with painful stocks like this, I think marth has to be very aware of the fact that the combos are free below 65% and that if you don't get her off stage before that % things are going to get tricky, so be as selective as possible in how you build damage. For example, if you just try to wall her out the whole time, you will lose.

 

[ZoSo]

I have a question Zoso:

If I stand from the ledge and sheik up Bs into the ledge am I just standing up too early or is there no way to actually cover the ledge while standing with ledge stand and you need to mix in rolls from the ledge to hold the ledge longer?

I'm pretty sure you can always cover the edge by standing as long as you time it correctly. They might be able to catch it with some weird horizontal up-B, but again, if you see that they're not in a position to sweetspot you should just dtilt them as they appear.

And just a general comment on being forced to kill her at 150+: I think all Marths should be advised to keep this in mind and avoid it at all costs. In situations where you have a lot of control (like a grab), its really important to be aware of how you are building damage on sheik and be very selective with what you hit her with. While its not avoidable to deal with painful stocks like this, I think marth has to be very aware of the fact that the combos are free below 65% and that if you don't get her off stage before that % things are going to get tricky, so be as selective as possible in how you build damage. For example, if you just try to wall her out the whole time, you will lose.

I sort of agree, but this applies to all of Marth's matchups to some extent. When you say, "not avoidable," I think you're suggesting that it happens some of the time but not usually, which I would say is a bit of an understatement. Actually, I think it's what you should expect MOST of the time against a good Sheik. Then again, I've never played you or seen you play, so I'd like to see how you approach the matchup.

 

[Niko45]

I'm pretty sure you can always cover the edge by standing as long as you time it correctly. They might be able to catch it with some weird horizontal up-B, but again, if you see that they're not in a position to sweetspot you should just dtilt them as they appear.

I'll take the particular situation I'm thinking of when this happens. Down throw sheik off stage and take the ledge. She attempts to up B extremely close at the corner of the stage so that she will poof just above the corner. From here she can still explode you if you don't do anything, teleport horizontally on stage, or teleport down on to the ledge if she sees you get off it. Marth is below 100 so its the quick stand up. Once sheik sees me stand up she reacts and teleports down on to the ledge.

I may just be getting scared and doing it slightly too soon but I've been trying to figure out what the issue is. I've wondered if I possibly need to time my ledge grab so that I get a few extra frames of just ledge invincibility and then stand up or something. I just don't know for sure what is happening there.

 

[ZoSo]

Abusing ledge invincibility helps, but I don't really see how the situation you're describing would be problematic. You'd have to show me.

 

[P. O. F.]

I agree with zoso on everything. Cc, d tilt, u tilt, u throw and simple edge guarding are key.

Pika does not do good against marth. Its a 70-30 simply because pikas projectile is horrible and can we jabbed and his range/priority is bad. Maybe its not ****....but its 70-30 for sure

 

[P. O. F.]

I agree with zoso on everything. Cc, d tilt, u tilt, u throw and simple edge guarding are key.

Pika does not do good against marth. Its a 70-30 simply because pikas projectile is horrible and can we jabbed and his range/priority is bad. Maybe its not ****....but its 70-30 for sure

 

[Tee ay eye]

okay thanks

also about pikachu

walling a good pika out isnt as easy as it sounds, and if they're proficient against it, they have time to grab or nair you or something

and if you shield, they'll do uair to catch you out of shield, which you can continue to shield and uair or something

i play with axe like, 4 times a week

i used to be able to do it better; idk if i stopped doing something or if he figured it out

 

[P. O. F.]

I played axe at pound 4 and he complimented my Marth and said I played pretty well against him. I got him down to one stock at mid % on BF.

I really don't mind that match up that much. U throw to wait and aerial or if they don't jump u tilt to crap. Dont mess up on edge guards.


Thats the match up in a quick two sentences. lol. If pikachu approaches on the ground d tilt and if in the air retreating fair.

jab projectile.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco: I know Falcos are comfy with Battlefield and all, but I actually like the stage against them sorta. It limits their recovery options, plus the platforms aren't bad for you in offensively either. They're just good for Falco. Aside from that, I don't particularly like FoD vs platform-oriented Falcos. It's useful vs laser/movement Falcos, but his platform game (shield pressure and combos) on that stage is really good imo

you need more ways to limit falco's options? i can understand fox's, but not falcos. The only difference is he can't sideb sweetspot easily so you can jab no matter what. when he upbs he is dead no matter what stage it is.

for FoD... its a small stage with huge blast zones. The fact that you can DI and live longer than you can on YS, PS or BF is huge. The platforms favor you more than him because marth excels on the ground while birds like the air.

Sheik: Forfeit the match (I like FoD, Yoshis, and FD). I'm not sure how I feel about PS; that stage normally just pisses me off to begin with, and Sheik pisses me off too, so I can imagine myself just getting angry during the match. I like FoD because of the low platforms (idk why, i just do) and easytech ledges if they like to run off->nair

side tangent: What do people think about FD vs Sheik? You can combo her pretty well on that stage, but.... she can do that back to you. However, Sheik's platform techchases are f**king annoying, so the lack of platforms is nice in that aspect, but eh.

i can't help you with your rage issues. PS helps a lot with the large open ground and good platforms in the neutral. Sheik is the only matchup for marth where the transformations don't favor the other person a ton. The transformations where you can camp, marth does it better than sheik. In the non-campy ones, its only slightly worse than neutral.

FoD and BF are sheik's 2 best stages. The platforms and and ground really favor sheik in about every way.

I like FD vs sheiks because sheik has bad aerial movement and DI so you can usually get decent combos on her, and i like having my space vs sheik. Only reason i like YS over FD is because the platforms on YS are way too good for marth.

Peach: Anything pretty much except DL and maybe FoD imo. I don't like FoD vs peach that much because of the wide blast zones, high ceiling, d-smash platforms, and less space to move around.

idk why you're falling for dsmash on platforms... seriously.

less space favors marth in this MU. The biggest issue of DL isn't the size of the blastzones but the height and width of the stage. Its very difficult for marth to cover all options vs her recovery on that stage. On FoD you can basically cover everything if you're patient enough, just like you can on FD because there are no platforms for her to get to.

 

[iDoLiZeD]

Yeah, 70/30 sounds right for Pika.
Even though Axe ***** Mango's Marth, Marth still has reach, the tipper, his grab range. And his taunt.

Pika has:
Fast and strong up smash, his Tail, his ledge game. Up smash can kill Marth around 80%. He also can juggle really well, which leads into some great combos. However, Pika suffers a poor shield and poor grab range. Which Marth just capitalizes on.

 

[Mind Trick]

Yoshi
Odds: 85/15

made me lol

 

[Niko45]

FoD is Marth's best stage imo bc you get the large blast zones on a small stage and weird platforms can create circumstantial openings, like an fthrow against a floaty could force them to tech and give you an fsmash opportunity, whereas normally they could just jump out of fthrow or something. I think it's very good against Falco bc it doesn't allow him to have a consistent laser game and the top platform is too low to camp safely. I don't find that any of the unique combos falco gets on FoD extend into kill % (like they do on YS) so I just take Falco there pretty much always and win.

 

[P. O. F.]

made me lol

At best for Yoshi its 70-30 but I still think its 80-20

Yoshi is one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Mind Trick is adamant that yoshi does really well against marth lolol

 

[knightpraetor]

90% of Sheiks just want to grab you in this matchup, so you need to do everything you can to abuse that. Late fair, L-cancel, dash away against shields. Intentionally underspacing the fair will make you appear more vulnerable and consequently make them more likely to flinch. This is a really good bait and honestly works even against good Sheiks. If they smarten up and start holding their shield, L-cancel to grab.

When you land a grab, you mostly want to stick to uthrow. On platform stages, it sets you up to play your platform game (you can cover every tech option including no-tech with a timely uair), which can lead to big damage if you can read their double jump. On FD, you can squeeze in an utilt if you time it well and they're bad at jumping out. If they're good at jumping out, they will probably do so, which puts them in a horrible position.

so i don't understand this line: "intentionally underspacing the fair wil....and make them more likely to flinch.

what does underspacing the fair mean. do you mean landing on top of them with a fair? or landing away? not sure why either is good..if you land outside of range with a fair they will punish your lag and if you land inside tipper range you will probably be able to dash through with a late fair but they may grab you. though of course you should try to run through if you do misspace..but yeah i don't get what you're saying here.

I also don't understand what you mean by covering every tech option with upthrow onto platform into upair.. i can agree that you get 3/4 but don't see how it's possible to get more than that..if you upair at a time that can hit tech in place the back end of the upair will catch a roll in but it won't catch a techroll in the other direction. while if you just wait of course you can cover everything but tech in place.

 

[Mind Trick]

Yoshi easily does the best of the low tiers against Marth, you guys just dont know yet ^^
ask any Marth in Europe who's played me lol (including Amsah, Adam and many many more)

 

[Dart]

Yoshi easily does the best of the low tiers against Marth, you guys just dont know yet ^^
ask any Marth in Europe who's played me lol (including Amsah, Adam and many many more)

it all makes sense now.