Marth Match Up Thread. Being Redone Soon.

[KirbyKaze]

Fox is awesome on Dreamland.

 

[P. O. F.]

Yeah, its arguably his best neutral.

Luigi will be complete in just a few minutes.....

Edit:

Luigi completed. Mario to be done soon.

 

[Tero.]

Yeah, its arguably his best neutral.

Not really.
Still good tho.

 

[Dart]

for bans i usually go...stadium > dreamland > green greens/ corneria. unless i know they like green greens or corneria in which case i ban that first

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i really like the match for the puff demonstration. it shows not only how to play against a puff, but if u spam a dair oos against a good puff u will get rested. i know im not the one to be giving advice, but id say for that match up :if the puff can get within ur sword and ur forced to shield, dont chronically be caught doing the same oos move like dair (especially when something like uair comes out faster and can combo into ur death)

did i just critique m2k? lol

 

[DJMirror]

I think you just did critiqued m2k...

 

[AlcyoNite]

i really like the match for the puff demonstration. it shows not only how to play against a puff, but if u spam a dair oos against a good puff u will get rested. i know im not the one to be giving advice, but id say for that match up :if the puff can get within ur sword and ur forced to shield, dont chronically be caught doing the same oos move like dair (especially when something like uair comes out faster and can combo into ur death)

did i just critique m2k? lol

this *****....

 

[unknown522]

I like most of your numbers. Some are really high for marth though.....

 

[weon - X]

hello i'm here lo learn

 

[Staco]

when will the matchups be rewritten?

 

[P. O. F.]

when will the matchups be rewritten?

I've already redone Falcon, Marth, and Falco. I THINK I did Peach....I have to check.

I'll try to do the rest today because I actually should have a little bit of free time for once in a blue friggin moon. lol.

 

[Dart]

I've already redone Falcon, Marth, and Falco. I THINK I did Peach....I have to check.

I'll try to do the rest today because I actually should have a little bit of free time for once in a blue friggin moon. lol.

i think the ganondorf matchup should be a little more balanced now that people are really stepping up with him. but still ganondorf gets ***** by grabs and getting hit out of down b soooooooo
neutral on DL and BF and maybe FD good for marth Yoshis FoD and Stadium

 

[P. O. F.]

i think the ganondorf matchup should be a little more balanced now that people are really stepping up with him. but still ganondorf gets ***** by grabs and getting hit out of down b soooooooo
neutral on DL and BF and maybe FD good for marth Yoshis FoD and Stadium

Marth definitely has the advantage on Dreamland because Ganon is a quick killer and Marth kills Ganon by good edge guards. Since Dreamland is a big stage it takes Ganon to kill longer but Marth can still be gay near the edge. It's also not too bad to combo Ganon here either because he's extremely floaty and we can intercept him easily.

It's even for Marth I think on Yoshis and that's it. Ganons just as gay to Marth as we are to him here.

MU is definitely slightly Marths favor though. For sure.

 

[Dart]

Marth definitely has the advantage on Dreamland because Ganon is a quick killer and Marth kills Ganon by good edge guards. Since Dreamland is a big stage it takes Ganon to kill longer but Marth can still be gay near the edge. It's also not too bad to combo Ganon here either because he's extremely floaty and we can intercept him easily.

It's even for Marth I think on Yoshis and that's it. Ganons just as gay to Marth as we are to him here.

MU is definitely slightly Marths favor though. For sure.

I know this is a crappy defense but ganon can live for a long time on this stage, but i guess that would mean not getting gayed by marths AMAZING edge game.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

just spike ganon. seriously. if he ever downbs you get a free spike. if he ever upbs you get a free spike. just use it.

dreamland would be good for marth if it wasnt huge. the large stage makes it easy for ganon to escape marth's combos and get down from above him in situations that would be impossible on yoshis.

 

[Dart]

But...but...the punch.

 

[ComboTurtle]

if marth has such great odds vs everyone except shiek, fox and falcon assuming he goes even with fox and falcon like is stated on the front page, why do we only see fox falco jiggs and peach players doing well in tournaments? with the exception of m2k ofcourse who rarely even plays marth anymore and 75/25 puff? Falco, Fox and Jiggs are running it these days.

 

[Dart]

if marth has such great odds vs everyone except shiek, fox and falcon assuming he goes even with fox and falcon like is stated on the front page, why do we only see fox falco jiggs and peach players doing well in tournaments? with the exception of m2k ofcourse who rarely even plays marth anymore and 75/25 puff? Falco, Fox and Jiggs are running it these days.

cuz thats who all the top players are using right now.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ exactly

 

[Niko45]

Lol no, he's right, the matchup numbers in this thread are all high for Marth, and in many cases grossly high. (lmao @75/25 over puff)

 

[ComboTurtle]

yeah its ridiculous, fox and falco have it over him aswell and it sorta lowers the credibility of the thread seeing such ridiculously high numbers for marth in all the matchups on the marth boards.

 

[Dart]

Lol no, he's right, the matchup numbers in this thread are all high for Marth, and in many cases grossly high. (lmao @75/25 over puff)

yeah its ridiculous, fox and falco have it over him aswell and it sorta lowers the credibility of the thread seeing such ridiculously high numbers for marth in all the matchups on the marth boards.

thats probably because most of the characters he has high numbers over weren't changed since like 05-07 where ken was god marth was top and those other characters didn't have top players...sans puff *king i guess?* but still ken made marth too good back then.

 

[ComboTurtle]

yeah well it needs to be changed for the times imo. also i fed your thing a digitreat

 

[Dart]

thanks ^_^ its a "pokeplushie" but its a digimon. Idk XD

 

[P. O. F.]

75/25 over puff)

Made it before people started ****** w puff son. (looks to Hbox and MaNg0)

Yeah, its AT BEST 50-50 for Jigs.

I'll rewrite/do my giant update when I have time. I have a presenation this Saturday and mid terms coming up. Sorry.

I definitely want to do 2-3 min clips of video discussion of match ups when I get a chance too.

 

[Niko45]

Haha, it feels so long ago that Marth was on top...but it really wasn't.

 

[P. O. F.]

I still strongly believe that Marth is third best and at worst 5th maybe?

Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Jigs

for me.

 

[Niko45]

I think he's distinctly 5th. People joke about a "marth tier" but it's kinda true. He's kinda noticably better than CF/Peach but noticably worse than Spacies/Jiggs/Sheik.

 

[Mars-]

I still strongly believe that Marth is third best and at worst 5th maybe?

Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Jigs

for me.

I agree with this.

 

[Staco]

I think he's distinctly 5th. People joke about a "marth tier" but it's kinda true. He's kinda noticably better than CF/Peach but noticably worse than Spacies/Jiggs/Sheik.

Its funny how people just look at the dominating players and rate the characters based on them.
Everyone rates Marth bad, because M2K isnt the best with Marth at the moment, loosing to different Jiggs players and Armada.
But dont forget:
Armada also beat M2Ks Fox!
Mango also ***** M2K with Falco etc.

Its not Marth, its just not that good Marth players beeing there at the moment.
Some time ago when Marth dominated we had Ken, Azen, M2K.
And this players dominated, there were not much players beeing as good as them.
Now we just have M2K as the only marth on top level and he is worse than Mango, Armada, Hbox, not just because of the character, they are simply better than him.

The only things that really limit Marth a bit are some counterpicks (Marth can also be very good on a lot of CPs if the player knows how to play them, watch Ken) and Shiek (its still arguable if Marth can make a 60:40 or nearly even MU against Shiek, if its played correctly; watch Strawhat Dahean, he does so much better than M2K vs. Shieks).

The top 5 imo is Fox, Falco, Marth, Jiggs, Shiek; all beeing pretty close to each other, Peach also beeing pretty close to them?

 

[Europhoria]

So yeah me and IB were talking and

Can someone explain to me how in hell Marth is considered 3rd by anyone... like ever... while getting like 65/35'd by Sheik? might even be 70/30... The other 4 characters usually mentioned in that top 5 bracket are considered to have no match ups below a 45/55 margin by almost everyone.

 

[Heart Break Kid]

M2K does fine in the Marth/Sheik matchup, I think your in love with that 1st match of him vs Over a bit too much... And didnt Strawhat lose to Drephen at Pound? I dnt know how much better he can be vs Sheik. Maybe in PAL cuz dthrow isnt as broken but in NTSC Sheik is tearing Marth a new one.

I know I joke about how terrible/awesome Marth is but hes definitly not 3rd

 

[Turazrok]

Armada also beat M2Ks Fox!

Did you watch the 2nd match? I firmly believe if M2K went fox all 3 he would've won.

 

[Niko45]

Staco your argument just sucks... We don't have any good Marth players? How about Marth has no safe kill move from 100-170 on like 90% of the cast? How about the fact that unlike other top tiers he has extremely snaggy matchups that other characters don't have? Sure if Marth just has to play spacies the whole time he can win tournaments just fine, but look at HBK in the pound bracket - best Ganon followed by gayest sheik. It's extremely difficult to overcome that kind of draw with Marth. If he'd gotten foxes the whole time who knows how far he would have gone. Pretty sure IB drew KK in bracket too. The problem with Marth is you can't control who you come up against in tournament and those tough matchups will make consistency impossible with marth.

 

[Mars-]

Staco your argument just sucks... We don't have any good Marth players? How about Marth has no safe kill move from 100-170 on like 90% of the cast?

He does. It's this cool thing called edge guarding.

but look at HBK in the pound bracket - best Ganon followed by gayest sheik.

Of course, it's completely absurd somebody would lose to the best ganon.

It's extremely difficult to overcome that kind of draw with Marth. If he'd gotten foxes the whole time who knows how far he would have gone. Pretty sure IB drew KK in bracket too. The problem with Marth is you can't control who you come up against in tournament and those tough matchups will make consistency impossible with marth.

Those draws didn't stop Ken or azen when they were playing.

 

[Niko45]

He does. It's this cool thing called edge guarding.

Of course, it's completely absurd somebody would lose to the best ganon.

Those draws didn't stop Ken or azen when they were playing.

1) I'm talking about the neutral position, not edgeguarding. He doesn't have a sheik fair, fox/falco bair that can just kill outright when % gets out of hand. In fact, he really has a hard time getting people off stage at all at that point because nothing is killing and the trajectory for DI on nairs or fairs is so high that edgeguarding is very difficult.

2) I guess the fact that he's the BEST ganon is irrelevant once we're in the pound 4 bracket people are going to be good. Based on the kind of tier list you seem to be describing, it does sound pretty odd that a Marth, top 3 character, would lose to a lowly high tier character like Ganon. Unless you're just saying HBK sucks, which I guess is actually your argument since you're inferring that there are no good marths.

3) Ken played fox too. Azen played everything too. We could go round and round with that argument. Ken was no where near Mango's level of consistency now, but there were more majors back then, etc etc. You're also assuming that Melee 4-5 years ago still applies to Melee today. I'll leave it at this - I'm going to keep playing Marth, so I really hope you're right, but you're almost undoubtedly wrong.

Just in general - I think to write off Marths now like "there are no good Marths now" is just a terrible argument. Why are the Ken/Azen years of dominance more credible than the last 3 years of Melee, during which the metagame has been very clearly developed beyond where it was during the MLG era. I mean, vids from 06 are like unwatchable now, so why are people so sure that because Marth dominated during an outdated and clearly less evolved period of melee, the reason that presently Marths are not dominant is because there just must be no good marths anymore?

 

[P. O. F.]

So yeah me and IB were talking and

Can someone explain to me how in hell Marth is considered 3rd by anyone... like ever... while getting like 65/35'd by Sheik? might even be 70/30... The other 4 characters usually mentioned in that top 5 bracket are considered to have no match ups below a 45/55 margin by almost everyone.

Marth really honestly only has one BAD match up. (sheik) and goes even with most high tiers or is stage dependent.

So does Falco (Jigs)

There is no doubt in my mind Falco > Marth simpy because he does really good against tourney viable characters more so than Marth. He takes of care of Falcon, Sheik, and Fox better than Marth does.

Sheik destroys the rest of the low tiers better than any other character in the game but Marth does better against the higher tiers than Sheik while Marth still wins the lower tier match ups. He still has a lot of advantages....but they aren't as high.

Marth does better than Sheik in

Jigs
Ice Climbers
Fox

While Sheik fairs more so in Ganon and Captain Falcon which are lower tier characters. I think they both do equally as nice VS Falco and Peach etc

 

[Mars-]

1) I'm talking about the neutral position, not edgeguarding. He doesn't have a sheik fair, fox/falco bair that can just kill outright when % gets out of hand. In fact, he really has a hard time getting people off stage at all at that point because nothing is killing and the trajectory for DI on nairs or fairs is so high that edgeguarding is very difficult.

2) I guess the fact that he's the BEST ganon is irrelevant once we're in the pound 4 bracket people are going to be good. Based on the kind of tier list you seem to be describing, it does sound pretty odd that a Marth, top 3 character, would lose to a lowly high tier character like Ganon. Unless you're just saying HBK sucks, which I guess is actually your argument since you're inferring that there are no good marths.

3) Ken played fox too. Azen played everything too. We could go round and round with that argument. Ken was no where near Mango's level of consistency now, but there were more majors back then, etc etc. You're also assuming that Melee 4-5 years ago still applies to Melee today. I'll leave it at this - I'm going to keep playing Marth, so I really hope you're right, but you're almost undoubtedly wrong.

Just in general - I think to write off Marths now like "there are no good Marths now" is just a terrible argument. Why are the Ken/Azen years of dominance more credible than the last 3 years of Melee, during which the metagame has been very clearly developed beyond where it was during the MLG era. I mean, vids from 06 are like unwatchable now, so why are people so sure that because Marth dominated during an outdated and clearly less evolved period of melee, the reason that presently Marths are not dominant is because there just must be no good marths anymore?

1.) Marth has many ways to finish off people. You are either making really bad johns here or don't know how to play your own character. And lol@u saying falco can ko easier than marth.

2.)It kinda isn't irrelevant. The best ganon vs a good marth. The best ganon should be able to beat a good marth, there is a reason he is the best. And lol keep that inferring bull**** out of here. It's clear you can't comprehend my statement let alone infer something from it.

3.) That's true but ken and azen played mostly marth against all the matchups you are crying about. And you might be right about it being old, however we will see PC chris is outdated lets see if he comes back to the top cause if he can do it I'm pretty **** sure so could azen and ken.

 

[Niko45]

Marth does better against the higher tiers than Sheik

Marth does better than Sheik in

Jigs
Ice Climbers
Fox

Your first statement is proven false by your second. Those characters you listed are the only characters marth does better against than Sheik in the entire game.

Among high tiers, sheik does better against:

Sheik
Marth
CF
Ganon
Doc
Samus

1.) And lol@u saying falco can ko easier than marth.

aaaand we're done.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you can't get a kill or start and edgeguard before 100%, you're doing it wrong.

If you can't kill with fair, maybe you should try one of marth's high knockback moves that are comparable to fox's nair or falco's bair.