Marth Match Up Thread. Being Redone Soon.

[Archangel]

Marth vs anyone whos not in top/high tier is probably in his favor. It's hard to believe some of these MU's though. Like Mario for instance. Mario vs Marth is still probably in Marths Favor but Mario has alot of tricky/gay stuff he can use to give himself a shot. 70-30 in that Match-up seems kind of mean lol.

As for Falcon it depends. With Stadium as a CP vs Falcon if you strike out stages you'll likely end up on a small stage for the first match. Doesn't get much better for you in that case

All that aside though Marth vs Falcon overall is 55/45 simply because Marth has better neutrals now.

Marth vs Sheik is still a punch in the balls Match-up. No matter how many years you play and how good you get at the Match-ups you'll never be even with sheik. A good sheik will still easily kill you off the edge with some ****** ****.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Marth vs Pikachu is 60/40 imo, assuming both players are playing the matchup well.

70/30 if the Pikachu isn't Axe

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think most matchups have an antagonist and protagonist, and while there is no way to make it even at the base level, as each player gains understanding of the match-up it will approach being an even match-up as long as there is no unbeatable strategy.

Why? Because inexperience in the match-up means you don't understand your danger zones and mistakes. You underestimate or overestimate the opponent's capabilities. As you apply the knowledge you gain, you can avoid negative situations and abuse your positive situations.

I find watching hugs play samus to be a great example of this.


edit- or wobbles
edit- or many other great players XD

 

[_wzrd]

I think most matchups have an antagonist and protagonist, and while there is no way to make it even at the base level, as each player gains understanding of the match-up it will approach being an even match-up as long as there is no unbeatable strategy.

Why? Because inexperience in the match-up means you don't understand your danger zones and mistakes. You underestimate or overestimate the opponent's capabilities. As you apply the knowledge you gain, you can avoid negative situations and abuse your positive situations.

I find watching hugs play samus to be a great example of this.


edit- or wobbles
edit- or many other great players XD

I have been trying to understand the learning process in matchups more lately and this is a great post. I've been trying to understand and learn the capabilities of other chars spacing in relation to my range...and trying to figure out how to abuse it more consistantly...any tips when facing an unfamiliar matchup?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you're unfamiliar with the match-up, try to find similarities with other match-ups you know.

If I were to play against axe's pikachu, i have no experience in the match-up. My thought process would make me think he is going to be shielding my aerials because he won't be able to get inside my range otherwise. His main punish/approaching attack would probably be nair or dair and he will probably be looking to jump over my dtilt so he would probably try to bait that out by faking a grab approach. Out of shield, his best punish will probably be uair, especially if i'm behind his shield.

To counter this, i'd be trying to avoid him getting inside my range with a CC or shield, especially when he is at a low %. Mostly i'd be looking to space him out with tilts and aerials while trying to see through his tricks. tomahawk would certainly be on my mind.

i've never played marth vs pikachu before.

 

[Dart!]

If you're unfamiliar with the match-up, try to find similarities with other match-ups you know.

If I were to play against axe's pikachu, i have no experience in the match-up. My thought process would make me think he is going to be shielding my aerials because he won't be able to get inside my range otherwise. His main punish/approaching attack would probably be nair or dair and he will probably be looking to jump over my dtilt so he would probably try to bait that out by faking a grab approach. Out of shield, his best punish will probably be uair, especially if i'm behind his shield.

To counter this, i'd be trying to avoid him getting inside my range with a CC or shield, especially when he is at a low %. Mostly i'd be looking to space him out with tilts and aerials while trying to see through his tricks. tomahawk would certainly be on my mind.

i've never played marth vs pikachu before.

well, the only even remotely decent pikas i have played are AnDaLe's and Kels's

kels's i'd say has some merit because he originally was a pika main.

marth ***** pika, but like usual the character in question is more agile and has really ******** things off the ledge and combos that work insanely well on bad DI

 

[Archangel]

well, the only even remotely decent pikas i have played are AnDaLe's and Kels's

kels's i'd say has some merit because he originally was a pika main.

marth ***** pika, but like usual the character in question is more agile and has really ******** things off the ledge and combos that work insanely well on bad DI

I have a decent Falco and Sheik as secondaries. I would likely go sheik if I ever played Axe simply because....I have never played a good Pika before in my life. On the other hand Axe has played some of the better Marth's to ever pick up a controller.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I wouldn't go sheik. i love my insane range advantage too much vs the little bugger. If axe can trick me so often that he gets inside my range more than I keep him out, I'm sure switching characters isn't going to solve my getting ***** problem

 

[Winston]

I'm here to post my opinions about the extremely relevant Luigi vs Marth matchup!

60-40 for Marth, not 70-30. Marth honestly is not as good at keeping Luigi out as people think, though he does have a reasonably good punish on him.

I would argue for 60-40 Marth vs Mario also but I'm not as sure about that one.

 

[Niko45]

I'm here to post my opinions about the extremely relevant Luigi vs Marth matchup!

60-40 for Marth, not 70-30. Marth honestly is not as good at keeping Luigi out as people think, though he does have a reasonably good punish on him.

I would argue for 60-40 Marth vs Mario also but I'm not as sure about that one.

Yea, sounds right. Off stage Luigi is just really in big trouble (although Marth's crappy elevated knockback ensures that he gets as many misfire opportunities as possible). On stage Luigi is pretty decent vs Marth. Those upward angled ftilts can break Marth spacing fair and I might be crazy but it seems like ftilt actually rivals Marth's dtilt. I'm not too experienced against Luigi though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

idk how luigi can get in on marth ever. luigi literally has no air momentum to approach with and very little range to speak of. other than wd->shield and wd->ftilt i don't see any other other viable options for breaking into marth's zone. Both of those can be beaten by dtilt, fair, nair, ftilt, shield, ect. IMO doc and mario do much better vs marth in general thanks to their increased fall speed and their range + momentum is much better.

 

[OverLord]

^this

and "Marth's crappy elevated knockback ensures that he gets as many misfire opportunities as possible"

man, you got a freakin' spike

probably it's just me, cuz I play PAL, so SPIKE to me sounds so GOOOOOOOOD

 

[Metal Reeper]

Amazing thread, also, I dare you to take Armada to BF.

 

[Dart!]

Amazing thread, also, I dare you to take Armada to BF.

why not, its a decent stage for the matchup

 

[Niko45]

Yea, definitely one of the better stages in that matchup imo.

Overlord: I did not know Marth's dair could spike. I will try that some time. No but seriously, idk how that had anything to do with any of the things I was saying. My point about Luigi getting the height to probably try for like 3 misfires per recovery attempt, there are occasional stocks where Luigi CAN live to +150%.

Sveet: Luigi gets in on Marth the same way every other character in the entire game does. It also doesn't help that Marth doesn't have much of a CC game on Luigi, so once your defenses are broken, it's not so easy to escape without taking a pretty solid punish. It's much easier to wall Doc imo because Doc can't potentially cover so much ground with so much speed like Luigi can. There is a nice distance where Luigi is outside Marth's range yet you are still inside his. Obviously he needs the stage to be not YS or FoD for this to happen. And as far as his aerial movement speed goes, you still need to respect it, because he'll be attacking you with decent range, priority, and a ton of power with his aerials.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Niko, please enlighten me on how "every other character in the game" gets in on marth, cause im really not sure. Except against falcon, sheik, fox and marth i dont think any other character can effectively get in on him. he has the most range and most disjointedness of any character in the game. he also has some of the fastest and least laggy moves.

Not to mention that his dtilt is one of his safest moves and stuffs every other ground approach in the game. Falcon does well against marth because dtilt is practically useless. Simply never leaving the ground and spacing carefully with dilts and ftilts is extremely hard to fight against. Now add in the fact that marth's air dominance is top of the line too.

Theres a reason he was tied for first in the game. It is quite difficult to fight a smart marth that doesn't space with fsmash or commit to laggy attacks.


To discuss luigi specifically, i dont see how luigi could ever escape a marth corner trap without the marth messing up. luigi simply doesnt have the air movement capabilities to get above and behind marth in any safe way. The only way to get through on the ground is if the marth doesn't space and gets hit by something (shouldnt happen as marth outranges luigi on the ground) or by rolling behind marth (.... obviously shouldnt be happening, easiest option to cover)

in neutral position, i think if marth stood in 1 spot dtilting luigi would have a decently hard time getting in. if marth actually attempted to space and zone out luigi, it really shouldnt be hard at all.

 

[Winston]

About Marth walling Luigi out: dtilt is the safest thing he can do and it's not completely safe, doesn't have a large reward when it hits (unless Luigi is right by the edge), and isn't really an approach. Fair, nair, ftilt, etc. all have significant weaknesses.

About corner trap: yeah, it's troublesome, but invincible ledge wavedash exists and while it doesn't get Luigi out for free, it at least forces a mixup game instead of just losing always.

About edgeguarding: Marth edgeguards Luigi fine, but not as well as Fox, Sheik, Ganon, Falcon, etc. do. Obviously it's easy to spike if he's side Bing in at a certain height, but Marth doesn't have really great ways of sending Luigi offstage low. As long as Luigi avoids ken combos/has good survival DI on fsmashes he'll frequently live to like 150.

It's possible that every Marth I've played/have seen play this matchup is playing this matchup incorrectly, though. Most try to focus on aerial spacing and that basically doesn't work at all vs Luigi. the optimal style could just be something like dtilt, ccing, and grabbing.

 

[Niko45]

About Marth walling Luigi out: dtilt is the safest thing he can do and it's not completely safe, doesn't have a large reward when it hits (unless Luigi is right by the edge), and isn't really an approach. Fair, nair, ftilt, etc. all have significant weaknesses.

It's possible that every Marth I've played/have seen play this matchup is playing this matchup incorrectly, though. Most try to focus on aerial spacing and that basically doesn't work at all vs Luigi. the optimal style could just be something like dtilt, ccing, and grabbing.

Yea, pretty much agree. Though I honestly don't find many good spots to CC. Not sure if you can CC grab a spaced luigi ftilt, and I'm not sure how long you can CC Luigi's ftilt at all (I know Marth can't cc sheik's ftilt passed 35% without being knocked down...such BS).

 

[OverLord]

I really think staying on the ground is the best thing, go in the air just to finish combos, Luigi gets ***** by Marth combos

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dont try to CC grab luigi. just CC fsmash. use ur '05 brain dog

 

[Niko45]

Nvm .

 

[Niko45]

Nvm .

 

[ChivalRuse]

Although u-throw is pretty good against Luigi since Marth can uair trap him pretty well.

 

[Bob Money]

not to toot my own horn but... TOOOT TOOOT!

This is how you play the shiek match up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l80FCfLD8A

starts at 5:45

Sfat is one of the best players in Norcal. He's a little above my skill level if not even..so here ya go!

1. CC everything!
2. Dont approach unless you know you have a very high chance of hitting
3. Make shiek jump before you (Azen mantra)
4.Get at least 30-40 percent off every grab at low percent
5. Camp the **** out of her with movement outside her dash attack range, mix that up with wd in down tilts and safe approaches to make think her second guess about throwing needles and jumping for no reason.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

... but u lost

 

[Dart!]

obviously he was trying to convey the message that we're supposed to play like that AND LOSE, duh sveet

 

[OverLord]

Bob is right, he plays VERY well against Sheik, he loses cause of random errors. (Like spamming neutral b on the ledge)

<3

 

[Niko45]

Nothing better than Strawhat Dahean vids for the Sheik matchup, no hate to Bob of course!

 

[Winston]

Doesn't strawhat dahean play in a version where Sheik can't dthrow combo though?

 

[Niko45]

Doesn't strawhat dahean play in a version where Sheik can't dthrow combo though?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UTQGZraKoo&feature=related

There are about 10 vids there, all in NTSC.

 

[Bob Money]

Nice! Never seen these before. Thanks.

 

[DJMirror]

not to toot my own horn but... TOOOT TOOOT!

This is how you play the shiek match up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l80FCfLD8A

starts at 5:45

Sfat is one of the best players in Norcal. He's a little above my skill level if not even..so here ya go!

1. CC everything!
2. Dont approach unless you know you have a very high chance of hitting
3. Make shiek jump before you (Azen mantra)
4.Get at least 30-40 percent off every grab at low percent
5. Camp the **** out of her with movement outside her dash attack range, mix that up with wd in down tilts and safe approaches to make think her second guess about throwing needles and jumping for no reason.

Hmmm I'll watch whenever I can. I'll favorite it for now. Thanks Bob$

... but u lost

****kkkkkk So mean! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UTQGZraKoo&feature=related

There are about 10 vids there, all in NTSC.

oooooohhhhhhhhhhh Strawhat.....

 

[townes]

This thread is amazing. I would like to see how the odds look today compared to when this was made. DrPP makes marth vs shiek look possible when he plays M2K. The format of each matchup is really clean too. I'm reading through the ask Cactuar thread and I'm still in the 2010 posts. It's just too much and too combobulated.