Marth is Dropping

[Remzi]

So the new Character Rankings are out, and it's pretty shocking overall, not to mention our boy Marth has dropped. We went from 4th to 9th. I want to dedicate this topic to discussing what everyone's biggest problems that they face in tourneys are. We can talk about solutions to these problems. We can also talk about the characters that are giving us trouble, because I fear some of our matchups may be inaccurate if we're falling this low. Our amazing matchups that we have listed just don't match up to a #9 ranking. I don't see how we could fall to this kind of ranking from only one real disadvantage (Meta).

Discuss.

 

[Zankoku]

Wow stop overreacting to about four weeks' worth of tournament data. I can only guess what would've happened if I released this last weekend when Falco was ABOVE Meta Knight.

 

[Shaya]

Or at lol various points when Chudat outranked meta knight, I mean kirby (wait I don't think that was at any point longer than a weeks worth of data though).

And its over the course of only one month of data, not multiple (I guess Ankoku is doing fresh for the new year).

Who cares? I don't care. I know I havn't been to any tournaments during the month of December, and many of the top 8 "regulars" we know of probably aren't either. It's not "Marths" problem that his community largely consist of people who dont even regularly go or dont at ALL go to tournaments or dont use Marth primarily (but wait, same applies everywhere, or does it? [maybe not MK])

 

[Pierce7d]

I personally have been doing rather poorly in tourney lately, so I guess I'm slacking on earning points for us. Unfortunately I'll only be going to three tourneys in the next two months, so I won't be able to rectify the situation for a while.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Hmmm....

I think I'll make a tournament with only level one Marth CPUs, I'll enter as well, and make the prize One Trillion Dollars. That's legal right?

 

[TLMSheikant]

Marth is dropping? The only matchups that I find hard as marth are DDD, snake and rob. And even those are managable . MK is another topic.

 

[PKNintendo]

Wow stop overreacting to about four weeks' worth of tournament data. I can only guess what would've happened if I released this last weekend when Falco was ABOVE Meta Knight.

Oh dear lord...

Hey Ankoku, not sound like a pushy *****, but when's the next ranking list coming out?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Lol, you're three places above Sonic. Shame on you.

 

[Remzi]

Wow stop overreacting to about four weeks' worth of tournament data. I can only guess what would've happened if I released this last weekend when Falco was ABOVE Meta Knight.

Why release this data then?

If it's really that inaccurate you should have just waited it out IMO. I mean I know we can be impatient SOBs sometimes, but it's better than getting bad info if you ask me.

 

[Darxmarth23]

This is a good topic, and to me, needs to be discussed.

EL predicted this a long time ago, and as usual, he is right.

I suppose its because a lot of charcters have been finding useful ATs. Recently the boards have been having good finds. Heck, even the falcon metagame got revolutionized with the finding of flubbed kneee combos and n-air combos.

Marths metagame doesn't really have any way to advance...at least for quite a while.

He is a simple character, with a simple and effective playstyle.

Ill post more on this later. >.>

 

[VietGeek]

Marth is dropping because everyone knows how to counter Marth. Playing as Marth, you need to have experience, and know what the **** you're doing.

Because if you don't, and all you do is try to space fairs, you're gonna get ***** because everyone knows how to fight you, the question is if you know how to fight them. With Marth, you can't 'go by the book' and expect easy wins, he's not that type of character.

In other news, I (still) suck with Marth. It's okay though, I've learned to accept this.

It's painful, but I must live on. For Steel2nd's amusement

 

[∫unk]

Unless some godly Marth develops with complete matchup knowledge/experience + godly mindgames... Marth won't move above top of high.

 

[Steel]

you're the man for the job junk, go for it

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah but Marth isn't going to drop very far in the tier rankings even if he does drop. I expect King Dedede to fall a bit but yeah, weekly basis means nothing.

 

[Ulevo]

Ankoku already stated that this is merely a months worth of data. It should be considered, but it isn't significant obviously.

That being said, Marth will drop. He has two heavy weaknesses that many characters easily abuse regardless of their match up with Marth, and this will make him an overall less effective character choice.

Those two hinderances I'm referring to is his terrible vulnerability at regaining momentum when attempting to return to the stage, and his overly difficult task of landing knock outs.

You can either be a poor Marth or a fantastic Marth, all depending on your knowledge and application. You can improve by being elaborate. But no matter what your method to madness may be, you won't eliminate these two problems.

 

[∫unk]

Thanks bro <3

Yeah I can see him going as low as the bottom of high or top of mid before someone goes super saiyan

You forgot rolling behind marth is an incredibly easy and effective tool for other chars

 

[Zankoku]

Why release this data then?

If it's really that inaccurate you should have just waited it out IMO. I mean I know we can be impatient SOBs sometimes, but it's better than getting bad info if you ask me.

Because of guys like this:

Oh dear lord...

Hey Ankoku, not sound like a pushy *****, but when's the next ranking list coming out?

 

[Remzi]

Point made...

 

[PKNintendo]

Ouch.

Next time, let's wait a year okay.
;]

 

[Darxmarth23]

Man! This was getting good. I was about to say what i Know and thats not much!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ankoku already stated that this is merely a months worth of data. It should be considered, but it isn't significant obviously.

That being said, Marth will drop. He has two heavy weaknesses that many characters easily abuse regardless of their match up with Marth, and this will make him an overall less effective character choice.

Those two hinderances I'm referring to is his terrible vulnerability at regaining momentum when attempting to return to the stage, and his overly difficult task of landing knock outs.

You can either be a poor Marth or a fantastic Marth, all depending on your knowledge and application. You can improve by being elaborate. But no matter what your method to madness may be, you won't eliminate these two problems.

Why didn't you just say average recovery and unsafe kill moves?

And these weaknesses are nothing new.

And lol@ regardless of their match-up with Marth as if his weaknesses go beyond his match-ups or something or they play a bigger part in his match-ups then any of his opponents weaknesses.

These weaknesses has been discussed to death and it's been widely accepted that they don't hinder Marth that much.

If they did Marth would simply be incapable of winning or placing well.

And since this isn't the case....

I'll leave it at that.

 

[TheRazaman]

Thanks bro <3

Yeah I can see him going as low as the bottom of high or top of mid before someone goes super saiyan

You forgot rolling behind marth is an incredibly easy and effective tool for other chars

You mean NEO is in a hyperbolic time chamber for another month and when he gets out he's going to be up there with M2K and NinjaLink.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I love the switches. The only thing that this shows is just that we gotta d better as a community. REP THOSE MARTH's Peeps!

Seeing CF where he is is pretty amazing. And Falco... Dayumm!

 

[adumbrodeus]

Haven't been going to tournaments much recently (should be around the scene till school gets back in) but... everyone who's been in threads with me knows super theory brothers is my favorite game.

Lol, so anyway, a few points.

1. 55-45s are real disadvantages. They're not pretty highly significant, but they definitely have an effect. That's why we have them listed as a disadvantage.

2. DDD, it's been suggested both by quite a few respected players that DDD has a 60-40, not a 55-45 on Marth, including some people who've already posted on this thread. Looking at the match-up, I'm not totally convinced, but I definitely see where they're coming from. At the very least this match-up leans more towards 60-40 then 50-50.

3. MK isn't just any disadvantage, MK is the most common character in tournaments. Period. That makes a disadvantage to him more significant then a disadvantage to any other character. Granted, most of the cast has a disadvantage to him...

4. The composition of our match-ups. Realistically, having tons of small advantages and only one or two disadvantages is a great position for a top character in the game, but it's not a particularly good position for anything below. Generally below that, ability to do well in the metagame will depend on ability against the top char (especially when as omnipresent as MK) and/or number of **** match-ups. Marth unfortunately, does poorly in both categories.

5. We need more good Marth players. Marth is a pretty difficult character, and cosmetically plays similar to MK, who you get more bang for your buck with anyway. This both makes it difficult to get players, and get them to high levels. *Looks at self* I need to get better.

6. As Ankoku said, it IS only one point of data.


That concludes this game of Super Theory Brothers!

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Hmm....I'm still not really understanding this. Why is Marth in for such a large drop? I can't really think of anything matchup wise that should bring him down besides the matchup info that already stand.

 

[VGSteve]

I personally don't get why this is cause for concern. So some Marth players didn't fare that well in tournaments, all that means is that the other characters' players matched better. This reflects nothing on Marth himself as a character. As Emblem Lord said, even though Marth may have "weaknesses", they're ways around them, and in my opinion, Marth has a pro to every one of his cons. So instead of worrying about how the other Marths are placing, I'm just going to focus on making sure that my Marth can hold his own.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

I'm sure if more Marth players played like Neo in tournaments we wouldn't even be having this discussion. He's too good. ._.

 

[VGSteve]

That's half the problem right there, we can't rely on one person to drag Marth up the ranking list.

 

[Ulevo]

lol@ regardless of their match-up with Marth as if his weaknesses go beyond his match-ups or something or they play a bigger part in his match-ups then any of his opponents weaknesses.

It depends on the match up. But against many characters, including most Top/High/many Mid Tier characters, these are heavily exploitable weaknesses.

These weaknesses has been discussed to death and it's been widely accepted that they don't hinder Marth that much.

These weaknesses have been discussed to death by the same people who don't attend tournaments regularly (yourself), or who don't win at all. Where is the importance in your statement here?

I'm providing my opinion. If you wish to confront it, I'm okay with that. Please do not attempt to overthrow it with the credibility of the Marth boards though.

If they did Marth would simply be incapable of winning or placing well.

No character is incapable of placing well, or even winning. The point to note here is that it is significantly more difficult to do so with Marth.

And since this isn't the case....

I'll leave it at that.

I have nothing to respond to this with, since you can't even appoint me to more than a few players who even win consistently, let alone at all, who use Marth exclusively.

 

[Zankoku]

Ulevo has just been elevated to Kel status in my list.

Watch out, I work with negative numbers.

 

[Darxmarth23]

You mean NEO is in a hyperbolic time chamber for another month and when he gets out he's going to be up there with M2K and NinjaLink.

You know how the time chamber increases your age by one year every day?

NEO would be quite old for smash

 

[magikguy]

Wise , but no reflexes

 

[Jim Morrison]

Wooow, Hyperbolic Time Chamber explanation needed:

The maximum amount of time you can spend in there is 1 day, equalling 1 year in there. You can only go in 2 times in your life. Frankly, 1 month would be impossible.

 

[Punishment Divine]

To be honest, Marth just isn't worth the trouble

I was once in the group that believed Marth's weaknesses could be overcome, but now I'm iffy.

Characters with projectiles make it extremely difficult for Marth to do anything. ROB, especially, who can do stuff when you get up close. Then characters like DK who can outrange you and then gimp your mediocre recovery very easily.

Marth just doesn't seem as worth it to me to use in tourney anymore. Maybe I just need to push myself harder but even after pushing myself to be a good player, but then I then have to work 50x harder than all MKs and Snakes to win.

meh. Maybe it's more me losing faith in myself, but I don't think Marth is helping T_T

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

It's ok, I know how you feel.

Don't worry, if you chose to main someone else we'll only hate you for forever and a day [instead of the more typical, forever and a week].

/kidding.

 

[Remzi]

To be honest, Marth just isn't worth the trouble

I was once in the group that believed Marth's weaknesses could be overcome, but now I'm iffy.

Characters with projectiles make it extremely difficult for Marth to do anything. ROB, especially, who can do stuff when you get up close. Then characters like DK who can outrange you and then gimp your mediocre recovery very easily.

Marth just doesn't seem as worth it to me to use in tourney anymore. Maybe I just need to push myself harder but even after pushing myself to be a good player, but then I then have to work 50x harder than all MKs and Snakes to win.

meh. Maybe it's more me losing faith in myself, but I don't think Marth is helping T_T

We get it a lot better than most characters. And we definitely do have enough strengths to overcome our weaknesses. Can we completely eliminate our weaknesses? No, of course not, but we have the tools to make up for it. Our match ups are still great, our tourney results are still far above average, we just need to work on getting around a few of our weaknesses.

I agree that ROB's camping can be a problem. The gyro's are nothing IMO, shield it and it dies, and it's usually pretty obvious when it's coming. The laser's always catch me by surprise and work well for gimping.

As for DK, it's a disadvantage, but it's nothing too big imo. Regarding getting gimped, I tend to recover low against DK. They usually aren't comfortable going low because their vertical recovery is bad. If an obvious bair is coming I may counter or AD.

Anyways, I'm glad you presented some problems, that was the original purpose of this thread. Anyways, don't get down, Marth is still an awesome character, just keep at it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

To be honest, Marth just isn't worth the trouble

I was once in the group that believed Marth's weaknesses could be overcome, but now I'm iffy.

Characters with projectiles make it extremely difficult for Marth to do anything. ROB, especially, who can do stuff when you get up close. Then characters like DK who can outrange you and then gimp your mediocre recovery very easily.

Marth just doesn't seem as worth it to me to use in tourney anymore. Maybe I just need to push myself harder but even after pushing myself to be a good player, but then I then have to work 50x harder than all MKs and Snakes to win.

meh. Maybe it's more me losing faith in myself, but I don't think Marth is helping T_T

Welcome to competitive fighters.

Suck it up bro.

If you feel this way think about how low tier players feel.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I know I need to work on my Marth and all. I'm just speaking from someone who uses a lot of characters, but mains Marth.

I played D3 the other day against some characters I was having trouble with as Marth. It was soooo much easier. It really got me thinking. I think Marth players everywhere are just exasperated from trying to excel beyond their potential as smash players, that their prowess as a Marth main is being hindered. Marth is an amazing character, but he requires insane amounts of thought and always doing the right thing. When you can dthrow someone over and over again, is it worth that trouble? When the most skill it takes to play a different character who we know is way better is just shielding before grabbing, is it worth the thought of how to approach your opponent? When we're trying to figure out how to safely land a fsmash, there's a Snake somewhere using his Ftilt, whose power and safety we would love, to rack up damage, knowing he has like 4 other safe kill moves. Is it worth working in that mindgame?

It's late and I'm just thinking about random crap, idk.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude it's Brawl.

I think you might be playing the wrong game if you want thought to be rewarded.

You might want to try Guilty Gear.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Dude it's Brawl.

I think you might be playing the wrong game if you want thought to be rewarded.

You might want to try Guilty Gear.

lol I play Guilty Gear XD