Marth in Ankoku's List for MLG Events

[Gea]

Neutrals should obviously be considered (since you are forced to play on them anyway and by definition they try to give as few character specific advantages as possible), but counterpicks? No, I think they're just considered when you're...counterpicking.

Eh, some neutrals are definitely counterpick in some matchups though. Certain matchups are very stage dependant. Marth's Story was called that for a reason. Counterpicks ARE important. If the matchup is evenish on neutral stages, and one character has two SOLID counterpick stages where the other person has one, its obvious at how that set would go in terms of whose favor it is in.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Am I the only one that thinks that matchups that are 60:40 in melee are easier to overcome than in brawl. It's just easier to punish a mistake in melee....

why don't we just play melee? Oh yeah, we should ban marth first.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Eh, some neutrals are definitely counterpick in some matchups though. Certain matchups are very stage dependant. Marth's Story was called that for a reason. Counterpicks ARE important. If the matchup is evenish on neutral stages, and one character has two SOLID counterpick stages where the other person has one, its obvious at how that set would go in terms of whose favor it is in.

If that's the case, then the matchup itself is still neutral. One character having a few extremely bad stages does not change the matchup. What it means is that those stages will have a large effect on the existing matchup!.

When those particular stages are in play, then there is nothing affecting the matchup.

 

[AlphaZealot]

It wasn't until this year that people really started to face the fact, that what should occur in theory doesn't always pan out in reality. Part of the large reason Marth got a boost in the newest tier list is because people could no longer ignore the real results, even if they felt Marth was not the best or even the second best character in the game, the results speak for themselves. There was and still is some sort of unquantifiable property in Marth that makes him excel, beyond just numbers. Maybe Mew2King was right and Marth is just easier to play at tournaments match in and match out, unlike other characters that heavily rely on tech skill (Fox/Falco), however, if that is the case, it would also help Sheik. Shrug.

 

[Nic64]

Yes. ROB, who has had hugely diminished tournament success since MK became dominant, will once again become a significant force. He's in the top tier of the official tier list, but several spots down on Ankoku's list. Why? MK. MK holds down the metagame by holding back characters that can't deal with him. Maybe it won't be a huge force, but there are several decent characters with terrible matchups against MK that would benefit from the ban.

MK holds back spammy projectile campers I LOVE IT

then again without him I might have more incentive to start playing tink again... =/

 

[EdreesesPieces]

It's unfortunate. Inui was doing a pretty good job at defending Meta, it was even making me reconsider some of my ideas, but Yuna had to go and mess it up and throw me back into my Anti MK stance. Good job =P

 

[brinboy789]

It's unfortunate. Inui was doing a pretty good job at defending Meta, it was even making me reconsider some of my ideas, but Yuna had to go and mess it up and throw me back into my Anti MK stance. Good job =P

yuna and inui are not for the MK ban.

actually, most top players besides overswarm that i know of dont support the ban

 

[rehab]

Edrees is like the most successful brawl Peach so far, brin. I don't think he cares that much.

 

[choknater]

Lol. I never really supported the MK ban, but I've just accepted now that I'd definitely have an easier time winning tournaments if he wasn't there. PP He's just another top tier to me.

 

[AlphaZealot]

For those listening to podcast, the first post has been updated.

 

[Xiivi]

I love that you're using that formula. Good stuff.

 

[TeeVee]

yuna and inui are not for the MK ban.

actually, most top players besides overswarm that i know of dont support the ban

lol

10youarereallywrongstopposting

 

[choknater]

good stuff AZ

 

[brinboy789]

But this early in Melee's life, Marth was not NEAR as dominant. Mk is off to an early, dominant lead, and unless someone in the cast has a freaking AMAZING secret up their sleeve, MK's metagame will get to be leaps and bounds above everyone else's. He's too prolific in tournaments, so until people start picking up other chars, he will remain in the lead.

I'm afraid, though I don't like to say it, that a ban on MK may be the only way to progress other characters. Then we could un-ban him...


But hopefully it will never happen.



EDIT: See above post.

reading this thread, and this post epicly fails. snake completely dominated smashes first half-year.

 

[AlphaZealot]

1. Marth = 2140.25
2. Falco = 1138
3. Ice Climbers = 1123.5
4. Fox = 793.125
5. Falcon = 366.625
6. Sheik = 170.875
7. Peach = 132
8. Jigglypuff = 118
9. Samus = 67.75


Through 9 tournaments, if there were as many tournaments as Ankoku's list then the gap would be even wider.

 

[ph00tbag]

Except M2K is known for CPing Fox, unless you can verify that for those tournaments he never used Fox once. Ken also used Fox once or twice, and won several matches as a result.

Ankoku splits points if there is sufficient evidence that more than one character significantly contributed to the win.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Ken rarely ever used Fox, in all the MLG games I saw him play in, he used Fox is probably less than 5 matches out of around 70 or so.

Same with M2K, he is NOT known for CPing with Fox, he very, very rarely does that. M2K/Azen/Ken using a character other than Marth in top 8 matches is largely an exception, I would say in less than 5-10% of their top 8 games did they ever switch off of Marth. Actually, Ken/Azen (in 2006) and Azen/M2K (in 2007) did Marth ditto's over switching.

 

[salaboB]

So he has less than double the nearest...

And it doesn't take the next 5 characters to equal his wins, now does it?

 

[Xiivi]

So he has less than double the nearest...

And it doesn't take the next 5 characters to equal his wins, now does it?

Let's just look at a lot of big brawl tournies and compare!

TOURNAMENT: Race's Garage Brawl Tournament V: Smashtoberfest
LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191335
DATE: October 18th, 2008
LOCALE: Pacific West
ENTRANTS: 110
ENTRY: $7.00
RESULTS:
1 Futile (Wario) 48
2 TKD (Meta Knight/Ice Climbers) 34
3 DSF (Meta Knight/Snake) 19
4 Boa (Marth/Meta Knight) 19
5 Ajax (Snake) 5
5 Shadowrob (ROB) 5
7 Edrees (Peach) 5
7 Leepuff (Mr. Game & Watch) 5

TOURNAMENT: HOBO 11
LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197642
DATE: October 4th, 2008
LOCALE: Southwest
ENTRANTS: 112
ENTRY: $10.00
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight) 70
2 Azen Zagenite (Lucario/Meta Knight) 49
3 Lee Martin (Meta Knight) 28
4 Dr. Mario Guy (Wario) 28
5 Roy_R (Marth) 7
5 DieSuperFly (Meta Knight/Snake) 7
7 Hylian (Mr. Game & Watch) 7
7 Edrees (Peach) 7

TOURNAMENT: EC Presents: Harry Potter and the Planking Meta Knight
LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197521
DATE: October 4th, 2008
LOCALE: Atlantic North
ENTRANTS: 97
ENTRY: $10.00
1 teh_spammerer (Meta Knight) 60
2 Inui (Meta Knight) 42
3 BUM (Donkey Kong) 24
4 Atomsk (King Dedede) 24
5 Snakeee (Zero Suit Samus) 6
5 NinjaLink (Diddy Kong/ROB/Marth) 6
7 ksizzle (King Dedede) 6
7 Keitaro (Falco) 6

TOURNAMENT: HOBO 10
LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192965
DATE: September 6th, 2008
LOCALE: Southwest
ENTRANTS: 118
ENTRY: $10.00
1 Stiltz (Olimar/Meta Knight) 74
2 D4vA (Meta Knight/Snake) 52
3 Dojo (Meta Knight) 30
4 DMG (Wario) 30
5 Gnes (Meta Knight/Kirby) 7
5 Hylian (Mr. Game & Watch) 7
7 Sandtrap (Meta Knight) 7
7 PowerNap (King Dedede) 7

TOURNAMENT: PAX Brawl Tournament
LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5255496&postcount=2207
DATE: August 30th, 2008
LOCALE: Pacific West
ENTRANTS: 256
ENTRY: $2.50
RESULTS:
1 Valdens (Mr. Game & Watch) 40
2 Praxis (Peach) 28
3 ??? (Meta Knight) 16
3 ??? (Wolf) 16
5 Rohins (Samus) 4
5 Zeionut (Snake) 4
5 Vista (Mr. Game & Watch/Wolf) 4
5

TOURNAMENT: Axis Gaming West Coast Majors
LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192048
DATE: August 30th, 2008
LOCALE: Pacific West
ENTRANTS: 302
ENTRY: $20.00
RESULTS:
1 DieSuperFly (Meta Knight/Snake) 378
2 Futile (Wario) 264
3 Plank (Meta Knight) 151
4 SK92 (Falco) 151
5 Aero (King Dedede) 38
5 TC1 (Diddy Kong) 38
7 Three Inch (Snake) 38
7 ShadowROB (ROB) 38

TOURNAMENT: Oxnard Brawl Tournament
LINK: http://www.allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=1116
DATE: August 16th, 2008
LOCALE: Pacific West
ENTRANTS: 98
ENTRY: $7.00
RESULTS:
1 Futile (Wario) 43
2 Leepuff (Mr. Game & Watch) 30
3 Connor (Snake) 17
4 Teba (King Dedede) 17
5 BoA (Lucario/Meta Knight/Marth) 4
5 Bardull (Marth) 4
7 MikeHAZE (Marth) 4
7 Vicegrip (Ness) 4

TOURNAMENT: Ketubato X-01
LINK: http://www.youtube.com/queensaki
DATE: August 7th, 2008
LOCALE: Japan
ENTRANTS: 94
ENTRY: $5.00
RESULTS:
1 akira (Meta Knight) 29
2 gano (Diddy Kong) 21
3 masashi (Pit) 12
4 ikki (King Dedede/Zero Suit Samus) 12
5 papepia (King Dedede) 3
5 waniki (Wario) 3
7 hoshikabi (King Dedede) 3
7 hangar (King Dedede) 3

TOURNAMENT: Brawl in Oakland
LINK: http://www.allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=2220
DATE: August 2nd, 2008
LOCALE: Pacific West
ENTRANTS: 112
ENTRY: $10.00
RESULTS:
1 DSF (Snake/Meta Knight) 70
2 SK92 (Falco) 49
3 Meep (Snake) 28
4 t0mmy (ROB) 28
5 Ajax (Snake) 7
5 TANJ (Meta Knight) 7
7 GERM (Wolf) 7
7 Peapo

TOURNAMENT: Critical Hit 3
LINK:
DATE: July 05th, 2008
LOCALE: Atlantic North
ENTRANTS: 112
ENTRY: $10.00
RESULTS:
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight) 70
2 Azen Zagenite (Lucario) 49
3 Chillindude829 (Falco) 28
4 NEO (Marth) 28
5 Forte (Meta Knight) 7
5 PC Chris (Snake) 7
7 Plank (Meta Knight) 7
7 DieSuperFly (Snake) 7

MK: 880/2560 points = 34% of the total points

Looking at Marth's Melee run....
2140.25/6050.125 = 35% of the total points

Oh, looks like Marth just outclasses MK by 1%. Poor MK needs to work harder!

 

[M15t3R E]

"It is far more interesting to look at the number/variety of characters used in the top 8 then simply to look at who won, because usually the same names will appear frequently and the best players are simply the best players.

For example, HOBO 11 is often used as evidence that MK should be banned, but look at the results again:
1: M2K (meta)
2: Azen (lucario/meta)
3: Lee (meta)
4: DMG (wario
5: DSF (snake/meta)
5: Roy_R (marth)
7: Edrees (peach)
7: Hylian (GW/meta?)

There are 7 characters represented in the top 8."


Uhh... AZ, don't you see a pattern? 5/8 people in the sample used MK. Some used him exclusively while others CP'd with MK. As has been said innumerous times, MK is dominating tournaments. Go look at Ankoku's Character Ranking data- it shows that MK alone has won more than 25% of all tournaments from the extensive tournament data he's collected.
There would be a much more even spread of victories across the board for all the characters if MK was just taken out of the picture.

 

[salaboB]

MK: 880/2560 points = 34% of the total points

Looking at Marth's Melee run....
2140.25/6050.125 = 35% of the total points

Oh, looks like Marth just outclasses MK by 1%. Poor MK needs to work harder!

Since I was referring to win counts (ie, first places) and not points (Since that's one of the most common points) I'm not quite sure why you needed to do such a spammy run-through.

 

[Sharky]

Let's just look at a lot of big brawl tournies and compare!

*said results*

MK: 880/2560 points = 34% of the total points

Looking at Marth's Melee run....
2140.25/6050.125 = 35% of the total points

Oh, looks like Marth just outclasses MK by 1%. Poor MK needs to work harder!

lolpwn'd. Good stuff Xivii. I really need to come back up to rochester sometime. =/

 

[Tien2500]

"It is far more interesting to look at the number/variety of characters used in the top 8 then simply to look at who won, because usually the same names will appear frequently and the best players are simply the best players.

For example, HOBO 11 is often used as evidence that MK should be banned, but look at the results again:
1: M2K (meta)
2: Azen (lucario/meta)
3: Lee (meta)
4: DMG (wario
5: DSF (snake/meta)
5: Roy_R (marth)
7: Edrees (peach)
7: Hylian (GW/meta?)

There are 7 characters represented in the top 8."


Uhh... AZ, don't you see a pattern? 5/8 people in the sample used MK. Some used him exclusively while others CP'd with MK. As has been said innumerous times, MK is dominating tournaments. Go look at Ankoku's Character Ranking data- it shows that MK alone has won more than 25% of all tournaments from the extensive tournament data he's collected.
There would be a much more even spread of victories across the board for all the characters if MK was just taken out of the picture.

By comparison there seems to be a fairly even distribution of Sheiks, Foxes, and Marths in the Melee tournaments.

 

[Mortimer]

MK: 880/2560 points = 34% of the total points

Looking at Marth's Melee run....
2140.25/6050.125 = 35% of the total points

Oh, looks like Marth just outclasses MK by 1%. Poor MK needs to work harder!

Wow, way to misread the question.

FAIL.

 

[Sharky]

Wow, way to misread the question.

FAIL.

He answered a slightly different question, yes, but it still shows that marth had GREATER dominance in major tournaments than MK.

 

[salaboB]

He answered a slightly different question, yes, but it still shows that marth had GREATER dominance in major tournaments than MK.

No, it shows Marth was more popular.

Dominance is from wins, and ratio of wins over anyone else at that.

Brawl CF could be the most popular character ever with 90% of people using him, and while that would likely be enough to have him placing and showing up in Ankoku's list he wouldn't be winning against the top players (Unless they were silly enough to be playing as him too -- but the top players are insistent you don't need to play as MK to win, so for the analogy they wouldn't be playing as CF).

 

[Mortimer]

He answered a slightly different question, yes, but it still shows that marth had GREATER dominance in major tournaments than MK.

True. But the question is about the circumstances surrounding that dominance.

These numbers are completely random, so they may or may not have any bearing on reality:

Case A:
Marth 35%
Fox 25%
Sheik 20%
Falco 20%
Everybody else <1%

Case B:
Meta Knight 34%
Snake 16%
Everybody else <8%

In Case A you have 4 viable characters, and while Marth has greater dominance than the rest, they're still all within striking distance.

In Case B you have 2 viable characters, though Meta Knight is farther above Snake than Marth is above any of the next three.

So, in these imaginary cases, while Meta Knight's total dominance is lower than Marth, if you compare his lead to other characters it's significantly greater. The question is if reality is anything like this, or does Marth maintain the same lead over individual characters than Meta Knight enjoys?

 

[Sharky]

No, it shows Marth was more popular.

Bull. Pure bull. A good part of the ban-MK argument entails so many people using MK. You can't say Marth was more popular.

 

[Tien2500]

We're also missing the point that Brawl's cast is about 1/3 larger. So theoretically this means that Meta should be less prolific by virtue of more options.

 

[M15t3R E]

We're also missing the point that Brawl's cast is about 1/3 larger. So theoretically this means that Meta should be less prolific by virtue of more options.

This was the valid point Edreese made on tonight's podcast.

When 1, just one particular character, out of 35 characters in the game is winning over 25% of tournaments around the country, he seriously needs to be taken out of the picture.
It's just ridiculous that not everyone sees this.

 

[memphischains]

this has become so out of hand

 

[BentoBox]

Still irrelevant.

 

[salaboB]

Bull. Pure bull. A good part of the ban-MK argument entails so many people using MK. You can't say Marth was more popular.

Points do not necessarily indicate dominance, because popularity can influence them. Winning indicates dominance, and I was talking about winning -- which while it may be true, the huge wall of results quoted at me was irrelevant for.

As well, it's only *part* of the pro-ban argument. You can't take it apart piecemeal and claim you've debunked it when all of it together is still overwhelming. Nobody has said Marth wasn't popular to use in Melee by the end, ever. If they have, I'll join you in ridiculing them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Who cares if the cast is larger? Consider this. We have a game "brawl+". Brawl+ is the same thing as brawl except with 20 more characters. These 20 new characters are all similar to Captain Falcon except they have no B moves, cannot midair jump, can't shield and roll, have no airdodge or spotdodge, and do varying amounts of lesser damage with their standard attacks (every one of their moves is always strictly inferior to Captain Falcon's version). Now, it's obvious that these 20 new characters are horrible, and they will never be used. Does it make any of the returning characters any more broken? Of course not. Pragmatically, the game is exactly the same game.

The point here is that what matters is not the percentage of viability but the number. Brawl having more characters doesn't make a character with n% wins any more broken.

I think another issue snagging people is the way the rest of the list looks. In AlphaZealot's melee stats, sure, Marth does just as well as Meta Knight does in Ankoku's (admittedly more complete) brawl stats. More complete melee stats would be very interesting, but for the sake of argument let's assume that AlphaZealot's stats are roughly in line with the game as a whole (though they obviously give too little credit to, say, Jigglypuff). As Xiivi demonstrated, Marth's roughly 35% dominance (actually 35.37530216%) is pretty similar to Meta Knight's about 34% (sorry, no exact number here). Of course, look at how the rest of AlphaZealot's list looks. Only 8 more characters are even represented (which makes it look like the other 18 characters in melee didn't exist at all), and there's a pretty clear and solid "second place" crowd. In brawl, those remaining 65 percentage points are more spread out... but if you think about it rationally, it's not fair to say that makes Meta Knight more dominant.

Consider if melee had new, completely unique playstyle characters. Let's say there are five of them. Now, while these characters play completely uniquely, it just happens that their matchups are not unique. Against tournament viable characters, they all are exactly the same matchup wise as a character already in melee. To be specific, they mirror Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach, and Captain Falcon. Now, since their matchups are the same, they are equal tier-wise to those characters. What we would expect to happen to the metagame would be that the points for all six of those would roughly divide in half and be shared between the old character and the new character. Marth did not get a partner with similar matchups; he would remain at the top and would seemingly gain in dominance... but would he really be better? No, of course not. Of course, this reveals another folly of the system. Characters like the Ice Climbers who were good but didn't get a "partner" would stand to move up despite not being any better. Let me construct the "new" list to demonstrate.

1. Marth = 2140.25
2. Ice Climbers = 1123.5
3. Falco A = 569
4. Falco B = 589
5. Fox A = 396.5625
6. Fox B = 396.5625
7. Falcon A = 183.3125
8. Falcon B = 183.3125
9. Jigglypuff = 118
10. Sheik A = 85.4125
11. Sheik B = 85.4125
12. Samus = 67.75
13. Peach A = 66
14. Peach B = 66

Notice that the Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, and Samus all moved up on the list. Now the Ice Climbers are the "second best" in the game, Jigglypuff is above Sheik, and Samus is above Peach. In fact, rename Marth to "Meta Knight" and Ice Climbers to "Snake" and this list should look relatively familiar in terms of how it pans out...

My list makes it look like we're just "adding clones" who are easy to spot and weed out, but remember that I said they played differently. We can presume they'd have more creative names too, and the scores wouldn't be exactly even (just close). Hell, let's say low tiers were just buffed to have those styles of matchups. Then the list could look like:

1. Marth = 2140.25
2. Ice Climbers = 1123.5
3. Falco = 572
4. Link = 588.25
5. Fox = 396.5625
6. Pikachu = 392.5
7. Falcon = 183.3125
8. Mr. Game & Watch = 181.825
9. Jigglypuff = 118
10. Sheik = 85.4125
11. Kirby = 79
12. Samus = 67.75
13. Peach = 66
14. Ness = 62.125

That's pretty much the same list... I bet you have a different feeling than from the previous list, right? Well, that's why you can't trust feelings. The fact of the matter is that even with this "new reality" the game still plays about the same. Sheik is still better than Jigglypuff; her score is just worse because Sheik has more competition for her metagame role than Jigglypuff does for hers. Marth isn't any more dominant; he just stands out more because his peak is pretty much unshared. What really makes a character good isn't how much that character should be used in a stable metagame; what makes a character good is how well a user of that character could expect to do in a stable metagame. It's pretty much impossible to quantify that second value, but it's definitely substantially different from the first type of value that we have been looking at this whole time. There's a very good reason Ankoku's thread was labeled "this is not a tier list"; it not only is really biased by popular trends in the in reality very unstable metagame, but that sort of statistic just doesn't contain accurate information about how good a character is.

 

[dainbramage]

lots of writing

That's pretty much the same list... I bet you have a different feeling than from the previous list, right? Well, that's why you can't trust feelings. The fact of the matter is that even with this "new reality" the game still plays about the same. Sheik is still better than Jigglypuff; her score is just worse because Sheik has more competition for her metagame role than Jigglypuff does for hers. Marth isn't any more dominant; he just stands out more because his peak is pretty much unshared. What really makes a character good isn't how much that character should be used in a stable metagame; what makes a character good is how well a user of that character could expect to do in a stable metagame. It's pretty much impossible to quantify that second value, but it's definitely substantially different from the first type of value that we have been looking at this whole time. There's a very good reason Ankoku's thread was labeled "this is not a tier list"; it not only is really biased by popular trends in the in reality very unstable metagame, but that sort of statistic just doesn't contain accurate information about how good a character is.

Except that that is an invalid analogy, as if there were different characters, each tourney viable, then they'd detract from the popularity of all top/high tier characters (read: including marth), not just fox, falco, shiek, peach and falcon.

Talking about exact clones of a character is foolish, as you'll find that G&W isn't an exact clone of Falco (I think). Again, the analogy doesn't apply.

EDIT: You also contradict yourself. How can two characters play differently (presumably by a large margin) yet have the exact same role in the metagame?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You don't understand the idea of the same role. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Peach and Marth both have an advantage against Falco and have a similarly sized advantage. Let's further say that it's because Peach can use her floating to really limit Falco's offense while Marth's grab game is especially devastating to Falco (I don't care if any of this is true or not so don't bother commenting on it). Now, you can say "Marth and Peach are totally different!" all you want, but as far as Falco is concerned, they are the same. The matches will LOOK a lot different, but the result (Falco is at a disadvantage of magnitude N) is the exact same. If this process repeats against all significant characters, they will occupy the same role in the metagame regardless of how different their playstyles are.

Matchup wise, these proposed new characters aren't able to accomplish what Marth is at all. They would have no impact at all on Marth's usage, assuming a rational playerbase (it may shrink slightly anyway just because people are dumb). However, they can accomplish what those other characters accomplish so they would detract from them. Consider a dummy game of simple triangular balance.

A > B > C > A

We would expect that A, B, and C would be used 1/3 in a stable metagame. However, let's introduce a D who is the same as B. Our new numbers are A and C being used 1/3 each while B and D are used 1/6 each. That's the stable metagame, and it's parallel to my example.

Of course, in the real game, characters don't quite match up 1 to 1, but regardless there are frequently clashes between radically different characters to do the same "job". I really don't feel like giving an example here, but pretty much every character is affected by this to some degree (and some to much bigger degrees than others). It's the reason Ankoku styled lists are interesting curiosities but not legitimately good foundations for character quality evaluation (though I'd hesitate to call such stats useless).

I didn't contradict myself; you just didn't understand.

 

[choknater]

i think AZ's argument is legit

 

[AlphaZealot]

The main point is that you can't cite Ankoku's list for your evidence.

If there is a best character in the game, or even something close to it, and if there are consistent dominant players using that character, then it will be elevated to roughly where Marth was in Melee/MK is in Brawl.

The reason is because that character (Marth in Melee with Azen/M2K/Ken or MK with M2K/DSF) consistently gets 1st while there are multiple characters getting second. According to the math then MK/Marth will consistently get their base 10 points (call this 100%), while there will be more than one character competing for 2nd and the base of 7 points (so if this is 70%, and there are two characters competing for it, then those characters will get roungly 35% ie half of 70%).
Essentially, because of the way the system is set up and assuming there are multiple characters competiting for second (like there was in Melee and is in Brawl) then the difference between 1st and 2nd in Ankoku's points will ALWAYS be around double - triple, this is just a function of the way the math works, not of how dominant a character really is.

 

[complexity1234]

AZ, ignore the nubs. They need to look at the facts. Marth wins just as much or more than MK is doing. . And yet Marth wasnt banned. So they need to stop using that for a reason. Marth could HARDLY be counter picked. Hes playable against any character on any stage. Thats a fact. But hes not unbeatable like MK.

It also has to do with a few REALLY good players using those particular characters, like ken/m2k with marth, KDJ with shiek. etc. So the results get inflated because they win ALOT. Imagine marth results without ken/m2k, or results of MK without m2k/dsf for example. They would be alot less and more balanced.

Another problem with the results thread is it DOES NOT take into account matchups. All it looks at is the win. So if a brawl marth were to constantly win alot, it doesn't necessarily mean hes better than MK. Maybe that marth is just playing very well and WINNING ALOT. That would inflate the results and make it look like marth dominates the game, which we know isn't necessarily true.

m2k is winning alot, why dont we just stop there and think about it.......




It just so happens hes using MK. If he were using DEDEDe, there would be alot more W's under the DEDEDe results thread, which is how it was BEFORE he switched.

If theres no m2k, guess how much less wins MK would have.... alot less compared to the rest of the cast.


Snake/ddd/falco/gw are still gonna dominate with no MK, and sonic/mario are still gonna get wrecked by them. Snake > meta, unless snake gets gimped, btw. MK doesn't even COMPARE to akuma. Too many scrubs on smash boards b1tchin instead of trying to get better.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Hes playable against any character on any stage. Thats a fact.

Well....playable yes, but you could put him at a severe disadvantage with Fox+Green Greens. Or Shiek+FoD. Generally picking a counterpick stage is enough to give you a slight advantage against Marth (if you're actually good on that stage).

Snake/ddd/falco/gw are still gonna dominate with no MK

Well, at least you can counterpick them. And why Falco?

and sonic/mario are still gonna get wrecked by them.

I can't speak for Mario, but out of that group Sonic only gets "wrecked" by G&W (it's 3-7).

Snake > meta, unless snake gets gimped, btw.

How? MK has more range on his attacks (well, except the second hit of f-tilt, which he just outspeeds), he juggles Snake forever, he d-tilt traps him forever...and gimps as well (and don't tell me to just recover higher, cause then Snake gets juggled and put back off the stage again).

MK doesn't even COMPARE to akuma.

So? Are you saying that you have to be Akuma to be bannable? As far as I'm concerned, Akuma is an extreme case where it's plain as day that there doesn't even need to be a debate in order to ban him. He's so broken that banning him is just common sense.

But where is the borderline between bannable and not bannable? It's obviously not Akuma, since his ban was pretty much agreed upon from the beginning. MK doesn't have to compare to Akuma to be bannable, because Akuma is not the borderline case to start with.