Marth in Ankoku's List for MLG Events

[Yuna]

Snake is the only one who stands a reasonable chance at beating him, that we know of for sure. But I guess that's still one =p. Yoshis claim they can with that pivot grab while a Yoshi player has yet to rank decently in a tournament. Donkey Kong/DDD have the tools, but it would be a shame to state that the outcome of such matches are representative of the highest level of play =p. Snakeee claims she goes neutral, but nothing's set in stone. This is a point on which many do not agree in and as it is the core of most pro-ban's arguments, I believe thorough analysis of these matchups are in order. Which gives the anti-ban camp reason as it is indeed too early to put forth such opinions (MK having no bad matchups) as fact.

What the hell is your threshold for "reasonable", anyway? 60:40 is perfectly reasonable in my book.

Fox, Sheik and Falco (to a lesser extent) gained from the very same lack of solid counterpicks, iirc. You then had 3~4 characters at the very top that were just as viable as the next.

60:40 =/= Counter

And Melee's depth allowed lower tiers to rise and shine (CF, Puff, etc). In Brawl, you have MK>Snake>>>>The rest, and a few honorable mentions (ie. anther in the west). What annoys people, I presume, is that MK is the only one in god tier.

Then why isn't MK Top 8:ing (all 8 spots) all tournaments, if he's sooooooo dominating?

Now you're just push forth your own standards.

Ask anyone credible and see if they think 60:40 is "unreasonable" or "not reasonable".

 

[BentoBox]

Honestly, I am not a big fan of theory crafting. Spitting numbers is fine, but for most of these we have no concrete evidence, just theories on paper. Hence why your threshold for reasonable means jack except for Snake, which is proven to be effective. Hence why I said we needed more time.

And about MKs not taking top 8 in all tourneys, maybe it's simply because there aren't 8 skilled MKs showing up in all tournaments? Maybe it's because not all top players have pulled an OS? Like seriously? D:

 

[Yuna]

Honestly, I am not a big fan of theory crafting. Spitting numbers is fine, but for most of these we have no concrete evidence, just theories on paper. Hence why your threshold for reasonable means jack except for Snake, which is proven to be effective. Hence why I said we needed more time.

And about MKs not taking top 8 in all tourneys, maybe it's simply because there aren't 8 skilled MKs showing up in all tournaments? Maybe it's because not all top players have pulled an OS? Like seriously? D:

How have the other characters not proven to be effective? Several characters have held their own against Meta Knight as a rule and come close to or even actually beating some of the best Metas in the U.S.

But that's not really proof of anything, now is it?

 

[BentoBox]

How have the other characters not proven to be effective? Several characters have held their own against Meta Knight as a rule and come close to or even actually beating some of the best Metas in the U.S.

But that's not really proof of anything, now is it?

If M2K was to clone himself and get his clones to main said characters with decent chances at beating MK, if they were to play a thousand of games together, would the trends be representative of our current matchup analysis? That's what I want to know.

Several characters having held their own against MK is as meaningful as Inui going against Atomsk and Bum and spreading wide open their buttcheeks to insert the ****. If they can't replicate such results on a regular basis, that is.

 

[Yuna]

If M2K was to clone himself and get his clones to main said characters with decent chances at beating MK, if they were to play a thousand of games together, would the trends be representative of our current matchup analysis? That's what I want to know.

That's what I want to know as well. But since we cannot do that, we can only rely on what we know through theory-fighter and deep analysis of the matches played.

Several characters having held their own against MK is as meaningful as Inui going against Atomsk and Bum and spreading wide open their buttcheeks to insert the ****. If they can't replicate such results on a regular basis, that is.

Hey, you use M2K as proof, then I can use Azen as proof. Azen's Lucario is doing just fine against MKs. Also, name the many, many, many characters who stand zero chance against MK and what proof you have of it.

Do you have video footage of MKs ****** everyone, giving them no reasonable chance of winning?

 

[∫unk]

Yuna imo you need to do something other than troll smashboards on a saturday night.

I mean I don't really give a **** if you don't I just feel bad for you whenever I see you on these posting sprees.

edit: im just here cause someone told me to check out the size of your e-***** and it's mad big congrats... and parties dont start til 10pm

 

[BentoBox]

Given the fact that matches at high level of play rarely feature non-high/top tier characters, proof is still lacking, on both sides. And some players simply refuse to let themselves be recorded. I looked up the top10 PR players of NJ and 70% of them don't have footage more recent than what had been put up in june~

 

[Yuna]

Yuna imo you need to do something other than troll smashboards on a saturday night.

I mean I don't really give a **** if you don't I just feel bad for you whenever I see you on these posting sprees.

I'd like to see you motivate that accusation. Exactly how am I trolling? And if I am, how come I'm not receiving any infractions for it? Heck, my language isn't even harsh at the moment. I'm calmly debating.

Given the fact that matches at high level of play rarely feature non-high/top tier characters, proof is still lacking, on both sides.

But then that plays into the "It's too soon" (as you said earlier, I believe) argument. It's way too soon to ban Meta if the evidence is so lacking.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Even with the counter-picks against Marth (pray tell, what stages? There are, like, two stage that I know of that are anti-Marth)

Mute City, Brinstar, Corneria, Green Greens, Pokefloats, Jungle Japes, ect.

And then you've got stages like DK64 and Dreamland, which are not neccesarily bad for Marth, just better for other characters.

Counterpicking against Marth works, that's why when you counterpick funky stages against Marths...they switch characters. Because obviously they don't want to risk going Marth.

It just happens that there's also a character that excels on most of the counterpick stages (Fox), who also has very few bad matchups (which are stage dependant anyway), so they just switch to him.

That doesn't mean that counterpicking doesn't work against Marth, or Fox players, it means that counterpicking does not work against Marth+Fox players.

 

[∫unk]

I'd like to see you motivate that accusation. Exactly how am I trolling? And if I am, how come I'm not receiving any infractions for it? Heck, my language isn't even harsh at the moment. I'm calmly debating.


But then that plays into the "It's too soon" (as you said earlier, I believe) argument. It's way too soon to ban Meta if the evidence is so lacking.

alright sorry not trolling but constantly lurking and correcting people for misuse of words.

if you spent half the time you did actually getting good at smash than correcting ridiculous grammar/logical errors on a internet message board you might be worth something (in smash at least).

 

[BentoBox]

edit: ^ Lol, does Sweden have an active scene?

But then that plays into the "It's too soon" (as you said earlier, I believe) argument. It's way too soon to ban Meta if the evidence is so lacking.

I don't know if I came off as biased to either camp but this illustrates my current stance. It is indeed to early. The burden of proof sits upon the shoulders of the whole community.

edit2: But then again, what are the odds that some top DDD player (example) decides to pick up Yoshi as a secondary to deal with MK? Since Yoshi players are so sparse and unlikely to make it that far in brackets, proof may actually never arise. Which is why some ask how much longer must we wait on the account of speculation.

 

[Yuna]

Mute City, Brinstar, Corneria, Green Greens, Pokefloats, Jungle Japes, ect.

I'm sorry, Mute City is merely anti-Marth since when? It's anti-everyone who's not Peach, Jiggz or Samus, pretty much. So no one's going to CP Marth on MC unless they play one of those characters, and even then they'll be fighting uphill battles.

I wasn't aware of Brinstar being vehemently anti-Marth. In fact, the ceiling is low-ish and he's floaty (does not get juggled by the acid). The stage also gives him several options for recovery instead of just 1 platform and edges. He can camp characters above him quite well on Brinstar.

In fact, it's a good stage for Marth against fastfallers, who hate Brinstar.

Corneria is anti-Marth? As whom, really? Marth loves the fin, it's camp-tastic. Marth also has no problems killing on stages with low ceilings. Tippers in general and U-tilt...

Green Greens, that I'll give you. How is Pokéfloats vehemently anti-Marth? Jungles Japes has a high ceiling, but then it's anti-everyone who's not Sheik Fairing you close to the edge of the stage. It's also occasionally banned.

And then you've got stages like DK64 and Dreamland, which are not neccesarily bad for Marth, just better for other characters.

Not anti-Marth CPs. And the same things can be said about several of the stages you mentioned above.

Counterpicking against Marth works, that's why when you counterpick funky stages against Marths...they switch characters. Because obviously they don't want to risk going Marth.

Yeah... if they play other characters. However, several people play Marth and only Marth and do just fine on these "funky" stages. You've basically "proven" that it happens that people switch out when counterpicked with "funky" stages, not that they are forced to do it due to the programming of the game.

It just happens that there's also a character that excels on most of the counterpick stages (Fox), who also has very few bad matchups (which are stage dependant anyway), so they just switch to him.

Yes, but Fox-only and Marth-only players could do just fine. They were not forced to go Marth+Fox.

That doesn't mean that counterpicking doesn't work against Marth, or Fox players, it means that counterpicking does not work against Marth+Fox players.

I never said there's no counter-picking Marth. You picked out a portion of a sentence to quote. Here's the full sentence again:
"Even with the counter-picks against Marth (pray tell, what stages? There are, like, two stage that I know of that are anti-Marth), he still dominated. He still had no real counters, suffering only slightly disadvantaged match-ups at worst."

 

[Yuna]

alright sorry not trolling but constantly lurking and correcting people for misuse of words.

How is this in any way trolling? Also, are you just making up stuff in your head? Since when do I lurk? Just because I haven't written anything in 2 or so weeks does not mean I've lurked. I just wasn't here. I don't lurk... ever.

If I don't write anything, I'm not here. If I read a thread, unless I find it uninteresting or that I have nothing to contribute to the thread, then I'll reply to it.

Also, why should I not correct people when they do something wrong, especially when their mistake is common? Not correcting them leaves them thinking they're right, allowing them to further spread their misconceptions until they're considered "truths".

if you spent half the time you did actually getting good at smash than correcting ridiculous grammar/logical errors on a internet message board you might be worth something (in smash at least).

Play me first, insult me later. I participate only in important debates. I don't spend hours arguing fanboy BS. Whether or not we ban a character is an important debate I feel I should participate in.

If you personally feel like I'm spending too much time debating it, fine, like I care. But don't you insult me for doing so.

edit2: But then again, what are the odds that some top DDD player (example) decides to pick up Yoshi as a secondary to deal with MK? Since Yoshi players are so sparse and unlikely to make it that far in brackets, proof may actually never arise. Which is why some ask how much longer must we wait on the account of speculation.

We can start by researching what we know insofar. Research is not limited to tournament matches alone. We can look through the match-ups in-depth so that we can determine whether or not, say, Diddy King stands a reasonable chance against MK.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

alright sorry not trolling but constantly lurking and correcting people for misuse of words.

if you spent half the time you did actually getting good at smash than correcting ridiculous grammar/logical errors on a internet message board you might be worth something (in smash at least).

...not to sound like I'm kissing Yuna's ***, but what the hell does making a semi-trolling him with posts like these help?

I may have disagreed with Yuna in the past (Melee vs. Brawl) but he isn't stupid, nor scrubish.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm sorry, Mute City is merely anti-Marth since when? It's anti-everyone who's not Peach, Jiggz or Samus, pretty much. So no one's going to CP Marth on MC unless they play one of those characters, and even then they'll be fighting uphill battles.

Fox can pick mute city as well.

Food for thought.

I wasn't aware of Brinstar being vehemently anti-Marth. In fact, the ceiling is low-ish

How does this help Marth in any way? Marth doesn't kill vertically.

and he's floaty (does not get juggled by the acid).

Neither do half the cast. It's pretty much only fast fallers who even half to worry about that.

The stage also gives him several options for recovery instead of just 1 platform and edges.

These extra recovery options really aren't helping him that much, because his up B's lag is terrible. Meanwhile, other characters with less laggy up Bs get the advantage of a new way to get around Marth's edgeguarding.

He can camp characters above him quite well on Brinstar.

He does that on any level. But at least now they have three oddly place platforms to help them get down.

In fact, it's a good stage for Marth against fastfallers, who hate Brinstar

It's a good stage for anyone against Fast fallers, because it's a terrible stage for fast fallers. It's still a bad Marth level, just not as bad as it is for Spacies.

Corneria is anti-Marth? As whom, really? Marth loves the fin, it's camp-tastic. Marth also has no problems killing on stages with low ceilings. Tippers in general and U-tilt...

Fox.

Green Greens, that I'll give you.

How is Pokéfloats vehemently anti-Marth?

More places to recover to makes it hard for Marth to edgeguard. The moving stage forces him into often disadvantageous positions. The lack of a main platform makes camping Marth easier, and edgeguarding Marth is easier because of his up B lag. The low ceiling also makes it easier to kill him.

Jungles Japes has a high ceiling, but then it's anti-everyone who's not Sheik Fairing you close to the edge of the stage. It's also occasionally banned.

It's not the high ceiling (for the last time, Marth shouldn't be focused on killing vertically anyway). It's the platform setup, with the two outer platforms being ideal for camping, with the main platform obstructed by a floating platform that is just a little too high for Marth to make effective use of. The river makes his edgeguarding less effective (they just go under him), and the blastzone on the right side is so very far off (and Marth has no real way of forcing his opponent to fight on the left side)

Not anti-Marth CPs. And the same things can be said about several of the stages you mentioned above.

They are counterpicks that are good against Marth when using (as in, they actually give Marth a stage disadvantage), thus they are anti-Marth CPs.

However, several people play Marth and only Marth and do just fine on these "funky" stages You've basically "proven" that it happens that people switch out when counterpicked with "funky" stages, not that they are forced to do it due to the programming of the game.

Fox players are not forced to switch when a Shiek counterpicks Brinstar against them. Captain Falcon players are not forced to switch when a Marth picks fountain of dreams. They voluntarily switch becuase they don't want to be put at a disadvantage.

Yes, but Fox-only and Marth-only players could do just fine. They were not forced to go Marth+Fox.

When was I ever arguing that they were forced to switch? That's just putting words in my mouth.

I never said there's no counter-picking Marth. You picked out a portion of a sentence to quote. Here's the full sentence again:
"Even with the counter-picks against Marth (pray tell, what stages? There are, like, two stage that I know of that are anti-Marth), he still dominated. He still had no real counters, suffering only slightly disadvantaged match-ups at worst."

I picked out that portion of the sentence because you specifically asked what stages Marth did bad on.

And Marth's dominance is not completely due to his matchups (considering he has more disadvantageous matchups and more bad stages than anyone in the top tier anyway), which is what is implied by you're third sentance.

 

[Vaul]

Realist View: Don't ban MK
Liberal View: Ban MK
Constructivist View: Hack Brawl

MK is one of the very few characters who is minimally impacted by Shield/L Canceling. Characters who were once regarded as incompetent are now battle-worthy with S/L Canceling and Wavedashing back.

One character example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmL0lnMSVDE

Counter Argument: MK will only pwn ever more with Melee's one-airdodge system due to his ridiculous gimp-game.

This is a valid point, and it's what made Jiggly so dominant in Melee (besides rest combos and what have you). Characters like MK, Jiggs, Pit, DDD, Kirby, ROB and Charizard to an extent would all see a boost in a Brawl where recovering isn't NEARLY as easy for over half the cast. My only counter-counter point as this time would be to hope that off-the-stage fighting becomes MK's forte instead of having EVERYTHING be his forte. MK has virtually nothing to gain from S/L canceling and everything to lose. Characters like Ganon (fair), Link (dair), and other low/mid-tier characters have everything to gain. If there's even a remote possibility that such characters can become competent fighters against the likes of MK, isn't that worth testing out?

Perhaps if this were to become the tournament norm, we wouldn't be having this discussion?

 

[Yuna]

Fox can pick mute city as well.

But how is it anti-Marth? Also, how is it so great for Fox? He has to either Over B (which lags) or Up B (which is quite predictable and easy to punish with no ledges to go for). And, Fox gets juggled by the road and cars (like on Brinstar).

How does this help Marth in any way? Marth doesn't kill vertically.

Yes he does. On stages with low ceilings, even if you DI, you're dead quite early from tippers. Brinstar is also just smallish in general, so Marth can kill both ways. Also, ever heard of U-tilt and U-air? And how does this translate into "Bad Marth stage"?

Neither do half the cast. It's pretty much only fast fallers who even half to worry about that.

Yes, but against the other characters, Marth still holds the upper hand even on Brinstar (I never argued Marth cannot be counter-picked, I argued he has few counter-pick stages and that he's not too bad off on them). And since when is Brinstar anti-Marth? How is Brinstar anti-Marth? Explain, please.

These extra recovery options really aren't helping him that much, because his up B's lag is terrible.

Better than nothing.

Meanwhile, other characters with less laggy up Bs get the advantage of a new way to get around Marth's edgeguarding.

Not really. Jump out, Fair/Dair. How hard is it on Brinstar? Brinstar doesn't magically make it a lot easier to recover against Marth. You're assuming that Marth won't jump off the stage to edgeguard most of the time. Also, even without gimping characters through edgeguarding, Marth is still not crippled or "counter-picked". His advantage just goes down a bit.

He does that on any level. But at least now they have three oddly place platforms to help them get down.

Two of which are within Tipper range. Also, how does this make it anti-Marth?

It's a good stage for anyone against Fast fallers, because it's a terrible stage for fast fallers. It's still a bad Marth level, just not as bad as it is for Spacies.

How? You have yet to mention why it's so bad for Marth besides your flawed edgeguarding-argument.

Fox.

Marth can kill early on Corneria because even with DI, tippers are deadly. He also loves the fin. It's not a super-duper auto-loss for Marth against Fox on Corneria. It also not as much as bad stage for Marth as it's a good stage for Fox. I argued that very few anti-Marth stages exist.

More places to recover to makes it hard for Marth to edgeguard.

Only for those with very lagless Up Bs. And since when is Marth an edguard-or-lose character?! Since when does making it harder to edgeguard magically cripple Marth?

The moving stage forces him into often disadvantageous positions. The lack of a main platform makes camping Marth easier, and edgeguarding Marth is easier because of his up B lag. The low ceiling also makes it easier to kill him.

On Pokéfloats, you have to kill someone outright most of the time or they won't even need their Up B. You can only camp Marth if you're projectile spamming, and for that, you need to be on the same platform as Marth. Marth likes people above him, so you'll have to be below him if you wanna be safe, as well.

Also, anti-Marth how? With the lower ceiling, Marth can easily kill people as well. The Tipper is strong enough to kill vertically at lowish %s.

It's not the high ceiling (for the last time, Marth shouldn't be focused on killing vertically anyway). It's the platform setup, with the two outer platforms being ideal for camping, with the main platform obstructed by a floating platform that is just a little too high for Marth to make effective use of. The river makes his edgeguarding less effective (they just go under him), and the blastzone on the right side is so very far off (and Marth has no real way of forcing his opponent to fight on the left side)

Ever heard of U-Airs? Also, what, do good Marth just camp below the floating platform on Jungle Japes? Again, Marth = Edgeguard or die? Also, did you know, Fsmash, D-tilt, F-tilt and various aerials go under the stage, so even if you go "under him" and go for another ledge, he can still whack you?

You just described a stage that's anti conventional Smash as we know it, not anti-Marth specifically.

They are counterpicks that are good against Marth when using (as in, they actually give Marth a stage disadvantage), thus they are anti-Marth CPs.

Oh yes, he gets a slight disadvantage. Horrible! Anti-Marth! Whoaaa! DL64 isn't even a counterpick against Marth. People think DL64 is a Peach counterpick and anti-everyone else or something. Not true.

Fox players are not forced to switch when a Shiek counterpicks Brinstar against them. Captain Falcon players are not forced to switch when a Marth picks fountain of dreams. They voluntarily switch becuase they don't want to be put at a disadvantage.

The disadvantages they face are higher than when Marth gets CP:ed on any of your CPs besides Green Greens.

When was I ever arguing that they were forced to switch? That's just putting words in my mouth.

No, that's what I'm arguing.

I picked out that portion of the sentence because you specifically asked what stages Marth did bad on.

Yes, but the rest of the sentence elaborated further. I didn't ask what stages "Marth did bad on" at all. I specifically said "anti-Marth stages", as in stages that are by nature anti-Marth, not anti-Marth in one single match-up.

And Marth's dominance is not completely due to his matchups (considering he has more disadvantageous matchups and more bad stages than anyone in the top tier anyway)

Name these many disadvantageous match-up.s

which is what is implied by you're third sentance.

You seem to think that no consideration is taken to what stages are available as neutrals and counterpicks when match-ups are written. You're wrong.

 

[PeeP]

You know who was even more overpowered than marth then and mk now?

KEN!!!

Let's ban him.


I think the problem is not that Mk is overpwered, but that so many people main him that the metagame of other character's is not being advanced. I also think that if Mk was temp banned and then unbanned SBR would lose some credibility.


Lol at Yuna quoting Dark sonic 16 times in the same post

 

[PeeP]

Double Post sorry

 

[Dark Sonic]

But how is it anti-Marth? Also, how is it so great for Fox? He has to either Over B (which lags) or Up B (which is quite predictable and easy to punish with no ledges to go for). And, Fox gets juggled by the road and cars (like on Brinstar).

While it's not great for Fox, wouldn't you say that he'd have the advantage (easy edgeguarding, no platforms, cramped stage). It's hard for Marth to do his usual zoning here, so Fox gets to take advantage of his superior pressure game.

Yes he does. On stages with low ceilings, even if you DI, you're dead quite early from tippers.

Except that landing tippers is more of a secondary method of killing, with edgeguarding being the primary method. And brinstar's ceiling is not really "low" when you consider that Marth will be doing most of his fighting on the bottom platform anyway. Now if you're on the top platform it would make a difference, but setting up tippers on that small platform is very rare and very dificult.

Brinstar is also just smallish in general, so Marth can kill both ways. Also, ever heard of U-tilt and U-air? And how does this translate into "Bad Marth stage"?

Up tilt and uair will still not be killing until past 120%, which is hardly note worthy.

Yes, but against the other characters, Marth still holds the upper hand even on Brinstar (I never argued Marth cannot be counter-picked, I argued he has few counter-pick stages and that he's not too bad off on them). And since when is Brinstar anti-Marth? How is Brinstar anti-Marth? Explain, please.

I just explained! The platforms are badly set up, the stage is too small, the "up B through the floor thing" makes edgeguarding harder, the lava saves characters from gimps, as well as forces Marth to occasionally give up his best position on that stage (the lower platform).

These extra recovery options really aren't helping him that much, because his up B's lag is terrible.

Better than nothing.

Better for every other character though.

Not really. Jump out, Fair/Dair. How hard is it on Brinstar?

Against Fox, Falco, or Falcon? Not hard at all. Against characters who's recoveries don't suck balls? Much harder, since they can easily just recover high and land on that platform right above the edge (which is not completely in tipper range btw)

Brinstar doesn't magically make it a lot easier to recover against Marth. You're assuming that Marth won't jump off the stage to edgeguard most of the time.

The lava helps.

Also, even without gimping characters through edgeguarding, Marth is still not crippled or "counter-picked". His advantage just goes down a bit.

His advantage goes down a bit=the opponent's advantage goes up does it not?

Two of which are within Tipper range. Also, how does this make it anti-Marth?

No they're not (well, the inward edges are, but the one's near the ledge are not).

How? You have yet to mention why it's so bad for Marth besides your flawed edgeguarding-argument.

Let's see.
Edgeguarding becomes harder because of the lava and the pass through level. The platforms do not significantly help Marth and actually aid other characters in avoiding uair and fair juggles, as well as recovering. The uneven main platform makes maintaining spacing more dificult, the high upper platform helps other characters camp, the lava forces him towards those smaller platforms where he can't properly space...
I think that's reason enough for it to be a bad Marth level.

Marth can kill early on Corneria because even with DI, tippers are deadly.

Marth can kill early on Green Greens because even with DI, tippers are deadly.

He also loves the fin. It's not a super-duper auto-loss for Marth against Fox on Corneria. It also not as much as bad stage for Marth as it's a good stage for Fox. I argued that very few anti-Marth stages exist.

If a stage is better for other characters than it is for him, doessn't that mean that he's not good on those stages (comparitively).

Only for those with very lagless Up Bs. And since when is Marth an edguard-or-lose character?! Since when does making it harder to edgeguard magically cripple Marth?

Weakening a part of Marth's game=weakining Marth's game.

You can only camp Marth if you're projectile spamming, and for that, you need to be on the same platform as Marth.

Shiek can needle camp. And a lot of the platforms on Pokefloats are rather large anyway (Onyx, Lickitounge, Wheezing, ect.)

Marth likes people above him, so you'll have to be below him if you wanna be safe, as well.

Which is not that hard to do on a moving stage like Pokefloats, where there's multiple platforms to run to. So much for that idea.

Also, anti-Marth how? With the lower ceiling, Marth can easily kill people as well. The Tipper is strong enough to kill vertically at lowish %s.

Try setting up a tipper on Squirtle's head, Or on Venasuar, or on any platform of that stage in general. If by lowish %s you mean early 90s or so, then yes. You don't think that Marth will be landing tippers on the higher (and more uneven and cramped) parts of the stage do you?

Ever heard of U-Airs?

Where do you get this idea that Marth's uair is strong? Marth's uair has never been a primary kill move against anyone except extremely floaty characters.

Also, what, do good Marth just camp below the floating platform on Jungle Japes?

There's not much else he can really do. Approaching the other platforms is predictable and extremely dangerous (since it's too small to actually space attacks to avoid punishment).

Again, Marth = Edgeguard or die?

If you weaken a major part of a character's game, then you weaken the character do you not?

Also, did you know, Fsmash, D-tilt, F-tilt and various aerials go under the stage, so even if you go "under him" and go for another ledge, he can still whack you?

Did you know that said ledges are so far enough appart that Marth cannot cover all of them? And that f-tilt actually does not hit under the stage (where'd you get that idea from)?

You just described a stage that's anti conventional Smash as we know it, not anti-Marth specifically.

Marth's options being limited=anti-Marth.

Oh yes, he gets a slight disadvantage. Horrible! Anti-Marth! Whoaaa! DL64 isn't even a counterpick against Marth. People think DL64 is a Peach counterpick and anti-everyone else or something. Not true.

Slight disadvantage>No disadvantage.

Also, where'd you get Peach from? I was talking about Fox and Captain Falcon.

The disadvantages they face are higher than when Marth gets CP:ed on any of your CPs besides Green Greens.

What's your point. If Marth is at a disadvantage on a stage...then it's a stage counterpick. It doesn't matter if it's a slight disadvantage or "zomg impossible stage," it's still a counterpick.

No, that's what I'm arguing.

If picking a certain stage gives you an advantage against a certain character...then you've counterpicked them. Whether it be a hugh advantage like Falcon on FoD, or be a slight advantage like Marth on Jungle Japes, it's still an advantage.

Yes, but the rest of the sentence elaborated further. I didn't ask what stages "Marth did bad on" at all. I specifically said "anti-Marth stages", as in stages that are by nature anti-Marth, not anti-Marth in one single match-up.

Stages Marth does bad on and anti-Marth stages are different?

Name these many disadvantageous match-up.s

Shiek and Falcon (kinda stage dependent though)
Compared to Fox's...Falco?
Shiek's....does she even have any (maybe Fox, though I could've sworn it's even now).
Falco's...I really don't know Falco that well, but I'll just throw Peach out there.

Notice I said more, not many.

You seem to think that no consideration is taken to what stages are available as neutrals and counterpicks when match-ups are written. You're wrong.

Notice that I said Falcon's advantage on Marth is stage dependant. Falco's advantage on Fox is stage dependant. I know full well that matchups take into account stage advantages and disadvanages. But do they take all of the neutrals and counterpicks into consideration? Do you think they take Brinstar into consideration for Fox's matchups? No, they take neutrals into consideration, not counterpicks! Why? Because counterpicks are just that, picking a stage to counter a character.

So you're wrong. They don't take counterpick stages into consideration when making matchups, because conterpicks are by nature a way of hindering one character while helping another, and scew the matchup as a result.

 

[Yuna]

While it's not great for Fox, wouldn't you say that he'd have the advantage (easy edgeguarding, no platforms, cramped stage). It's hard for Marth to do his usual zoning here, so Fox gets to take advantage of his superior pressure game.

Who the hell gets edgeguarded on Corneria? You just die outright. Marth has the fin to camp and none of those things makes it a rabid anti-Marth stage. It's just a counterpick for Fox (against everyone, really).

Except that landing tippers is more of a secondary method of killing, with edgeguarding being the primary method. And brinstar's ceiling is not really "low" when you consider that Marth will be doing most of his fighting on the bottom platform anyway. Now if you're on the top platform it would make a difference, but setting up tippers on that small platform is very rare and very dificult.
Up tilt and uair will still not be killing until past 120%, which is hardly note worthy.

So we're assuming Marth will do all his KO's on the bottom platform while everyone else will do it on the top? It's not anti-Marth. The ceiling is low-ish. This makes it pro-Marthish. 120%:ish is better than 140%:ish.

I just explained! The platforms are badly set up, the stage is too small, the "up B through the floor thing" makes edgeguarding harder, the lava saves characters from gimps, as well as forces Marth to occasionally give up his best position on that stage (the lower platform).

You cannot stall forever before Up B:ing. Marth his has to shield your Up B and there goes a grab/Fsmash/U-tilt/Aerial. It's not hard. Trust me, I've faced many Marths here, it's not anti-Marth.

I skipped the rest because it's 6 A.M. and I'm going to bed.

Notice that I said Falcon's advantage on Marth is stage dependant. Falco's advantage on Fox is stage dependant. I know full well that matchups take into account stage advantages and disadvanages. But do they take all of the neutrals and counterpicks into consideration? Do you think they take Brinstar into consideration for Fox's matchups? No, they take neutrals into consideration, not counterpicks! Why? Because counterpicks are just that, picking a stage to counter a character.

So you're wrong. They don't take counterpick stages into consideration when making matchups, because conterpicks are by nature a way of hindering one character while helping another, and scew the matchup as a result.

BS, of course common counterpick stages are taken into consideration! If a character has some really bad counterpicks outside of neutrals, of course that's going to play a part in how good his match-ups are! Or vice versa.

 

[RedPeppers]

I have a very simple question. If the OP is correct, and Marth won more 100 plus tournaments than any other character in Melee's lifespan, why wasn't he (at least) tied for top position on the tier list until just recently? Obviously the SBR didn't feel the same way about Marth as some do about Meta Knight.

 

[Yuna]

I have a very simple question. If the OP is correct, and Marth won more 100 plus tournaments than any other character in Melee's lifespan, why wasn't he (at least) tied for top position on the tier list until just recently? Obviously the SBR didn't feel the same way about Marth as some do about Meta Knight.

Sheik's advantage over Marth was exaggerated for years upon years.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Who the hell gets edgeguarded on Corneria?

Sorry, I was thinking of Mute City.

You just die outright. Marth has the fin to camp and none of those things makes it a rabid anti-Marth stage. It's just a counterpick for Fox (against everyone, really)

It's a good counterpick for Shiek too. And Samus. Falco's not bad against Marth here either (though there's better options).

So we're assuming Marth will do all his KO's on the bottom platform while everyone else will do it on the top? It's not anti-Marth. The ceiling is low-ish. This makes it pro-Marthish. 120%:ish is better than 140%:ish.

Marth will have a hard time landing up tilts on the upper platform, because that is just generally a bad position for Marth to be in to begin with. And uair is going to be killing much later.

And since when is 120% low, or even low-ish? Do you play Peach or something?

You cannot stall forever before Up B:ing. Marth his has to shield your Up B and there goes a grab/Fsmash/U-tilt/Aerial. It's not hard. Trust me, I've faced many Marths here, it's not anti-Marth.

I've faced many Marth's there too, I've even done Marth dittos there (lol?). You can use the lava to get closer to the stage as a last resort (better than getting F-smashed) and recover to one of the platforms, giving Marth...a uair. You can stand on the top platform above Marth and run to one of the side platforms if Marth tries to jump up there (just like on Dreamland lol). And the Marth will eventually have to go up there anyway to avoid the lava.

But I guess the level is just pro-everyone else (except spacies) right?

 

[RedPeppers]

Sheik's advantage over Marth was exaggerated for years upon years.

Marth also had a matchup advantage over the top 2 at the time Fox/Falco. Based on AZ's argument he should have been higher.

 

[kr3wman]

MK's advantages are exaggerated now. You can say it either way.

I feel MK's advantages are underrated.

 

[Yuna]

Last post for the night (morning):

Sorry, I was thinking of Mute City.
It's a good counterpick for Shiek too. And Samus. Falco's not bad against Marth here either (though there's better options).

But it's not magically anti-Marth.

Marth will have a hard time landing up tilts on the upper platform, because that is just generally a bad position for Marth to be in to begin with. And uair is going to be killing much later.

I'm assuming that he'll occasionally U-air chase you when you're in the air.

And since when is 120% low, or even low-ish? Do you play Peach or something?

125%< is lowish in my book. Also, Fsmash tipper kills pretty well on Brinstar and Corneria. No, before 120%.

I've faced many Marth's there too, I've even done Marth dittos there (lol?). You can use the lava to get closer to the stage as a last resort (better than getting F-smashed) and recover to one of the platforms, giving Marth...a uair. You can stand on the top platform above Marth and run to one of the side platforms if Marth tries to jump up there (just like on Dreamland lol). And the Marth will eventually have to go up there anyway to avoid the lava.

Yes, because the acid will always be there. What's stopping Marth from not getting edgeguarded by using the same tactics? It goes both ways, really. Who the hell jumps into the acid and ends up on the top platforms?

But I guess the level is just pro-everyone else (except spacies) right?

It's not in any way anti-Marth. It's pro-a-bunch-of-others. Not anti-Marth.

 

[Dark Sonic]

BS, of course common counterpick stages are taken into consideration! If a character has some really bad counterpicks outside of neutrals, of course that's going to play a part in how good his match-ups are! Or vice versa.

Then I guess that means that Marth completely destroys Falcon, since he can pick brinstar, while Falcon has no such level to pick against Marth (the best he can get is a slight advantage). And Shiek completely wrecks Marth too, cause she can pick Green Greens, and Marth can pick no such level against her.

Really? I'm pretty sure only neutrals are taken into consideration in matchups, cause if counterpicks were considered...matchups would look quite different.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

1st match: Neutral
2nd-7th match: Counter-pick

In a best-out-of-3 (most common), you'll get CP:ed once at most. So you still have to have CP:s yourself and be good at neutrals. In bo5, 2, in bo7, 3.

That's not to mention Stage Striking where one stage goes. Next up, what the hell's so pro-Sheik about Green Greens? What, Marth's just gonna get dthrow-Uaired one bazillion times without being able to fight back?

So you need several counterpicks. One really good one is not enough if your opponent bans it and/or it's best out of 5/7.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

There were two Marths in the melee tourney top eight, and five MKs in the Hobo tourney top eight.

Sorry if that's been mentioned.

 

[Dark Sonic]

But it's not magically anti-Marth.

I guess not, it's just a great level for a bunch of characters to pick against Marth.

I'm assuming that he'll occasionally U-air chase you when you're in the air.

Marth's uair still isn't that strong anyway. It won't be killing most characters for quite a while.

125%< is lowish in my book.

Then we're reading very different books

Also, Fsmash tipper kills pretty well on Brinstar and Corneria. No, before 120%.

Notice I was talking about uair and up tilt, showing that they are not primary kill moves, and would only be used when the opponent is well into killing percentages anyway. Yes, Marth's tipper kills pretty well on Brinstar and Corneria. It kills well everywhere (even dreamland), but so do other character's kill moves.

Yes, because the acid will always be there.

It comes fairly often yes.

What's stopping Marth from not getting edgeguarded by using the same tactics?

Nothing is stopping him from doing that, except that he generally doesn't like being above his opponents and finds it harder to get down than most characters.

It goes both ways, really. Who the hell jumps into the acid and ends up on the top platforms?

People who got knocked of the stage at decent percentages. That's if the lava's high of course. If not then their best bet is to just try to go under the stage so they have more places to land after they up B (platforms, ledges, ect.)

It's not in any way anti-Marth. It's pro-a-bunch-of-others. Not anti-Marth.

Pro-a-bunch-of-others-more-than-marth, means that it's a disadvantage to Marth against a bunch-of-others, doesn't it? If Marth is disadvantaged (well, more disadvantaged than previously) against a bunch of characters on that stage...then it's against Marth, which is anti-Marth.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Next up, what the hell's so pro-Sheik about Green Greens? What, Marth's just gonna get dthrow-Uaired one bazillion times without being able to fight back?

Not much, but Shiek already had the advantage in the matchup, and Green Greens is just adding to it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So you need several counterpicks. One really good one is not enough if your opponent bans it and/or it's best out of 5/7.

Well, against Falcon as Marth I've got FoD, Brinstar, Corneria, and Mute City (if anyone thinks of more bad Falcon stages let me know)

That's 4 counterpick stages, 3 if he bans one. Not to mention that I've still got the advantage on Battlefield that I could pull on random.

So with this Marth completely wrecks Falcon, since he can take Falcon to bad stages on counterpicks?

edit:****, I was hoping someone would post before me. Sorry tripple post.

 

[Shaya]

I pose a question to those who state Marth used to be dominant.
How dominant, I ask, in comparison to Meta Knight.

Since May, the tournament results that Ankoku has been keeping record of show that 31.03% of all first placements used Meta Knight.

Let me help you visualise a 'graph'. May is excluded due to it only containing 5 tournament results.

June had 18.86% of first placements go to SNAKE. Meta Knight was lagging behind with 16.98% of first placements. Out of 124.52%

->

July had Meta Knight obtain 28.78% of first placements. Snake at this point was 19.69%. Characters King Dedede and Marth's first place percentages had seemingly been halved and added to Meta Knight and Snake. Out of 131.81%

->

August showed Meta Knight take the gap further, leading Snake 37.87% to 24.24%. As can be seen, both Meta Knight and Snake combined were making the rest of the characters nearly unworthy of competitiveness. Out of 134.84%

->

September showed recline of both Meta Knight and Snake dominance, down to 34.14% and 19.51% respectively. The main cause of this was a 're-awakening' of King Dedede. Out of 129.26%

->

October as of now shows Meta Knight's dominance to have skyrocketted to 43.33%, Snake being literally less than half at 20.00%. Characters such as King Dedede's placements have plummetted. Out of 150%
To take note here is the 'out of' skyrocketting to 150% as well as MK's first placements. This links with the fact that a lot of first placements are using their 'main' and MK to achieve their first place rank.

*Note: These are by tournaments not by total placements. In other words the total ratios of first place would be well over 100%, However, a percentage indicates that out of all first placements the player was using said character. So 43.33% really means that that many tournament firsts had MK. THE TOTAL FIRST PLACEMENT PERCENT WAS 133.71%

Character Points [Ratio of Total Points] - [ Ratio of total: 1st / 2nd / 3-4th / 5-8th ] 

Handling: May 08 [5 tourneys]
Snake 88.12 [31.71%] - [ 80.0% / 20.0% / 40.0% / 10.0% ]
Meta Knight 66.12 [23.79%] - [ 20.0% / 40.0% / 10.0% / 5.0% ]
Lucario 29.22 [10.51%] - [ 40.0% / 0.0% / 10.0% / 0.0% ]
R.O.B. 22.66 [8.15%] - [ 20.0% / 0.0% / 10.0% / 5.0% ]
Olimar 14.0 [5.03%] - [ 0.0% / 20.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% ]
Falco 10.56 [3.80%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 10.0% / 5.0% ]
King Dedede 9.92 [3.57%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 25.0% ]
Peach 7.53 [2.71%] - [ 0.0% / 20.0% / 0.0% / 5.0% ]
Donkey Kong 6.2 [2.23%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 20.0% / 5.0% ]
Wario 5.52 [1.98%] - [ 20.0% / 0.0% / 10.0% / 5.0% ]
Wolf 4.56 [1.64%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 5.0% ]
Pokemon Trainer 4.0 [1.43%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 10.0% / 0.0% ]
Pit 3.45 [1.24%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 10.0% / 0.0% ]
Ganondorf 3.0 [1.07%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 10.0% / 0.0% ]
Mr. Game & Watch 1.0 [0.35%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 5.0% ]
Zelda/Sheik 0.75 [0.26%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 5.0% ]
Toon Link 0.75 [0.26%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 5.0% ]
Ike 0.43 [0.15%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 5.0% ]
Totals: [180.0/100.0/140.0/90.0]

Handling: Jun 08 [53 tourneys]
Snake 636.91 [17.94%] - [ 18.86% / 16.98% / 17.92% / 11.79% ]
Meta Knight 486.17 [13.69%] - [ 16.98% / 30.18% / 12.26% / 11.79% ]
King Dedede 390.96 [11.01%] - [ 15.09% / 13.20% / 8.49% / 5.66% ]
Marth 253.44 [7.14%] - [ 13.20% / 3.77% / 9.43% / 7.07% ]
Mr. Game & Watch 232.03 [6.53%] - [ 9.43% / 11.32% / 6.60% / 4.71% ]
R.O.B. 212.59 [5.98%] - [ 5.66% / 3.77% / 12.26% / 8.01% ]
Wario 198.62 [5.59%] - [ 5.66% / 1.88% / 7.54% / 4.71% ]
Falco 168.51 [4.74%] - [ 5.66% / 5.66% / 4.71% / 5.18% ]
Lucario 144.49 [4.07%] - [ 5.66% / 5.66% / 2.83% / 4.71% ]
Olimar 114.52 [3.22%] - [ 1.88% / 5.66% / 7.54% / 4.24% ]
Fox 91.33 [2.57%] - [ 3.77% / 0.0% / 0.94% / 1.41% ]
Wolf 83.24 [2.34%] - [ 1.88% / 3.77% / 2.83% / 4.71% ]
Ice Climbers 78.81 [2.22%] - [ 1.88% / 5.66% / 2.83% / 1.41% ]
Donkey Kong 73.98 [2.08%] - [ 5.66% / 1.88% / 2.83% / 1.88% ]
Pit 71.96 [2.02%] - [ 1.88% / 3.77% / 0.0% / 1.88% ]
Kirby 65.25 [1.83%] - [ 0.0% / 3.77% / 5.66% / 2.83% ]
Ness 32.62 [0.91%] - [ 1.88% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.94% ]
Peach 31.49 [0.88%] - [ 0.0% / 1.88% / 1.88% / 2.35% ]
Toon Link 24.36 [0.68%] - [ 1.88% / 1.88% / 2.83% / 1.41% ]
Diddy Kong 23.39 [0.65%] - [ 0.0% / 1.88% / 0.94% / 4.71% ]
Pikachu 18.18 [0.51%] - [ 1.88% / 0.0% / 2.83% / 0.94% ]
Luigi 18.0 [0.50%] - [ 1.88% / 1.88% / 0.0% / 0.47% ]
Samus 17.25 [0.48%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.94% / 1.41% ]
Bowser 16.25 [0.45%] - [ 0.0% / 1.88% / 0.0% / 0.47% ]
Zelda/Sheik 14.61 [0.41%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.88% / 1.88% ]
Zero Suit Samus 9.8 [0.27%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.88% / 0.0% ]
Sonic 9.20 [0.25%] - [ 1.88% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.94% ]
Jigglypuff 7.0 [0.19%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.94% / 0.47% ]
Ike 6.68 [0.18%] - [ 0.0% / 1.88% / 0.0% / 0.94% ]
Mario 6.45 [0.18%] - [ 1.88% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.94% ]
Lucas 6.18 [0.17%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.94% / 0.94% ]
Link 2.0 [0.05%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.94% / 0.0% ]
Pokemon Trainer 1.65 [0.04%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.94% ]
Captain Falcon 1.0 [0.02%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.47% ]
Yoshi 0.5 [0.01%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.47% ]
Ganondorf 0.06 [0.00%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.47% ]
Totals: [124.52/128.30/120.75/103.30]

Handling: Jul 08 [66 tourneys]
Meta Knight 732.03 [20.06%] - [ 28.78% / 22.72% / 24.24% / 14.77% ]
Snake 616.01 [16.88%] - [ 19.69% / 21.21% / 16.66% / 9.46% ]
Mr. Game & Watch 241.72 [6.62%] - [ 12.12% / 6.06% / 11.36% / 7.95% ]
King Dedede 229.88 [6.30%] - [ 10.60% / 9.09% / 9.09% / 8.33% ]
Wario 227.08 [6.22%] - [ 7.57% / 4.54% / 3.78% / 1.13% ]
Marth 194.54 [5.33%] - [ 3.03% / 12.12% / 9.84% / 6.81% ]
Falco 160.35 [4.39%] - [ 1.51% / 10.60% / 6.81% / 4.92% ]
Donkey Kong 145.69 [3.99%] - [ 10.60% / 4.54% / 3.03% / 3.03% ]
Diddy Kong 127.35 [3.49%] - [ 3.03% / 9.09% / 3.03% / 4.92% ]
Lucario 122.82 [3.36%] - [ 3.03% / 3.03% / 3.78% / 3.03% ]
R.O.B. 110.96 [3.04%] - [ 3.03% / 6.06% / 3.78% / 6.81% ]
Kirby 78.18 [2.14%] - [ 1.51% / 6.06% / 3.03% / 3.03% ]
Ice Climbers 69.51 [1.90%] - [ 7.57% / 3.03% / 4.54% / 0.75% ]
Olimar 61.81 [1.69%] - [ 1.51% / 1.51% / 3.03% / 4.16% ]
Peach 55.65 [1.52%] - [ 3.03% / 3.03% / 2.27% / 2.27% ]
Zero Suit Samus 51.56 [1.41%] - [ 1.51% / 0.0% / 3.03% / 1.13% ]
Sonic 43.09 [1.18%] - [ 1.51% / 0.0% / 1.51% / 0.75% ]
Ike 42.93 [1.17%] - [ 1.51% / 1.51% / 2.27% / 1.51% ]
Zelda/Sheik 42.11 [1.15%] - [ 0.0% / 3.03% / 3.78% / 3.78% ]
Wolf 40.91 [1.12%] - [ 1.51% / 3.03% / 0.75% / 5.30% ]
Lucas 40.5 [1.11%] - [ 1.51% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 1.89% ]
Fox 38.07 [1.04%] - [ 3.03% / 1.51% / 0.75% / 1.89% ]
Pikachu 33.5 [0.91%] - [ 1.51% / 1.51% / 3.78% / 1.89% ]
Pit 28.20 [0.77%] - [ 1.51% / 1.51% / 2.27% / 1.13% ]
Jigglypuff 21.75 [0.59%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 0.0% ]
Pokemon Trainer 18.81 [0.51%] - [ 1.51% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 0.75% ]
Toon Link 15.72 [0.43%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 2.65% ]
Ness 12.95 [0.35%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 2.27% ]
Link 12.33 [0.33%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 0.37% ]
Samus 8.27 [0.22%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% ]
Bowser 6.93 [0.19%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.51% / 0.0% ]
Yoshi 6.57 [0.18%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 2.65% ]
Mario 5.26 [0.14%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.89% ]
Captain Falcon 1.96 [0.05%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% ]
Luigi 1.87 [0.05%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.13% ]
Ganondorf 0.71 [0.01%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.37% ]
Totals: [131.81/134.84/133.33/114.39]

Handling: Aug 08 [66 tourneys]
Meta Knight 1134.02 [24.13%] - [ 37.87% / 13.63% / 19.69% / 12.5% ]
Snake 763.71 [16.25%] - [ 24.24% / 15.15% / 13.63% / 9.84% ]
Wario 377.02 [8.02%] - [ 7.57% / 4.54% / 0.75% / 3.03% ]
Falco 341.81 [7.27%] - [ 6.06% / 7.57% / 5.30% / 7.57% ]
King Dedede 279.74 [5.95%] - [ 6.06% / 15.15% / 10.60% / 5.30% ]
Mr. Game & Watch 249.29 [5.30%] - [ 9.09% / 7.57% / 9.84% / 6.43% ]
Marth 187.64 [3.99%] - [ 4.54% / 9.09% / 9.84% / 7.95% ]
Lucario 169.19 [3.60%] - [ 3.03% / 4.54% / 6.06% / 3.03% ]
R.O.B. 157.08 [3.34%] - [ 1.51% / 4.54% / 5.30% / 6.06% ]
Diddy Kong 132.53 [2.82%] - [ 0.0% / 3.03% / 2.27% / 3.78% ]
Kirby 116.43 [2.47%] - [ 3.03% / 4.54% / 3.03% / 4.16% ]
Pikachu 104.29 [2.21%] - [ 6.06% / 4.54% / 2.27% / 3.78% ]
Peach 86.70 [1.84%] - [ 1.51% / 9.09% / 0.75% / 1.13% ]
Wolf 79.17 [1.68%] - [ 3.03% / 1.51% / 6.06% / 4.54% ]
Pit 74.6 [1.58%] - [ 0.0% / 3.03% / 2.27% / 2.27% ]
Olimar 57.45 [1.22%] - [ 0.0% / 3.03% / 4.54% / 3.03% ]
Donkey Kong 55.07 [1.17%] - [ 1.51% / 1.51% / 5.30% / 2.27% ]
Zelda/Sheik 51.67 [1.09%] - [ 4.54% / 0.0% / 1.51% / 3.78% ]
Pokemon Trainer 37.62 [0.80%] - [ 1.51% / 1.51% / 0.0% / 0.75% ]
Ice Climbers 33.14 [0.70%] - [ 3.03% / 1.51% / 2.27% / 3.78% ]
Zero Suit Samus 26.99 [0.57%] - [ 0.0% / 1.51% / 0.75% / 3.40% ]
Fox 24.04 [0.51%] - [ 3.03% / 0.0% / 2.27% / 1.89% ]
Mario 23.63 [0.50%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.51% / 1.89% ]
Luigi 23.28 [0.49%] - [ 1.51% / 1.51% / 1.51% / 1.51% ]
Toon Link 14.16 [0.30%] - [ 1.51% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 3.78% ]
Bowser 13.31 [0.28%] - [ 1.51% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 0.37% ]
Ness 12.25 [0.26%] - [ 0.0% / 1.51% / 0.0% / 2.27% ]
Yoshi 12.02 [0.25%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 1.89% ]
Ike 12.01 [0.25%] - [ 0.0% / 1.51% / 0.75% / 0.75% ]
Link 10.93 [0.23%] - [ 0.0% / 1.51% / 0.0% / 0.0% ]
Samus 9.03 [0.19%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 2.65% ]
Lucas 7.57 [0.16%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 1.51% ]
Jigglypuff 7.5 [0.15%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 0.0% ]
Ganondorf 5.33 [0.11%] - [ 1.51% / 1.51% / 0.75% / 0.0% ]
Sonic 4.19 [0.08%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.75% / 1.51% ]
Captain Falcon 3.95 [0.08%] - [ 1.51% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% ]
Totals: [134.84/124.24/123.48/118.56]

Handling: Sep 08 [41 tourneys]
Meta Knight 538.41 [26.49%] - [ 34.14% / 24.39% / 18.29% / 15.85% ]
Snake 201.48 [9.91%] - [ 19.51% / 12.19% / 9.75% / 10.97% ]
King Dedede 160.53 [7.90%] - [ 12.19% / 2.43% / 12.19% / 5.48% ]
Mr. Game & Watch 102.14 [5.02%] - [ 0.0% / 12.19% / 7.31% / 8.53% ]
Olimar 95.98 [4.72%] - [ 4.87% / 4.87% / 7.31% / 4.87% ]
Falco 86.89 [4.27%] - [ 7.31% / 0.0% / 7.31% / 7.31% ]
Wario 84.32 [4.14%] - [ 4.87% / 4.87% / 7.31% / 0.60% ]
Peach 71.99 [3.54%] - [ 2.43% / 4.87% / 3.65% / 1.21% ]
Pikachu 64.90 [3.19%] - [ 7.31% / 4.87% / 1.21% / 2.43% ]
Diddy Kong 62.73 [3.08%] - [ 4.87% / 2.43% / 7.31% / 3.65% ]
Lucario 61.15 [3.00%] - [ 7.31% / 2.43% / 2.43% / 3.65% ]
Kirby 58.54 [2.88%] - [ 0.0% / 7.31% / 3.65% / 5.48% ]
Marth 55.82 [2.74%] - [ 0.0% / 2.43% / 7.31% / 12.19% ]
R.O.B. 47.02 [2.31%] - [ 4.87% / 2.43% / 2.43% / 5.48% ]
Ice Climbers 44.70 [2.20%] - [ 0.0% / 2.43% / 2.43% / 3.04% ]
Wolf 44.36 [2.18%] - [ 4.87% / 2.43% / 2.43% / 3.65% ]
Sonic 39.78 [1.95%] - [ 4.87% / 2.43% / 3.65% / 3.04% ]
Donkey Kong 32.40 [1.59%] - [ 0.0% / 7.31% / 2.43% / 3.65% ]
Zelda/Sheik 30.45 [1.49%] - [ 2.43% / 2.43% / 3.65% / 3.04% ]
Zero Suit Samus 27.46 [1.35%] - [ 0.0% / 2.43% / 2.43% / 0.60% ]
Toon Link 27.11 [1.33%] - [ 0.0% / 2.43% / 0.0% / 5.48% ]
Pit 20.96 [1.03%] - [ 2.43% / 0.0% / 1.21% / 1.21% ]
Luigi 17.20 [0.84%] - [ 2.43% / 4.87% / 0.0% / 0.60% ]
Bowser 16.39 [0.80%] - [ 0.0% / 4.87% / 0.0% / 1.21% ]
Fox 9.29 [0.45%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 2.43% / 1.21% ]
Captain Falcon 6.30 [0.31%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.21% / 1.82% ]
Mario 5.89 [0.29%] - [ 0.0% / 2.43% / 0.0% / 1.21% ]
Pokemon Trainer 4.37 [0.21%] - [ 2.43% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% ]
Link 3.46 [0.17%] - [ 0.0% / 2.43% / 0.0% / 0.0% ]
Yoshi 3.12 [0.15%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.21% / 0.0% ]
Ike 1.81 [0.08%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.21% ]
Ness 1.55 [0.07%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.21% / 0.60% ]
Jigglypuff 1.03 [0.05%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.60% ]
Samus 1.03 [0.05%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.60% ]
Lucas 0.68 [0.03%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.21% ]
Ganondorf 0.54 [0.02%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.60% ]
Totals: [129.26/124.39/121.95/122.56]

Handling: Oct 08 [30 tourneys]
Meta Knight 477.14 [27.54%] - [ 43.33% / 26.66% / 26.66% / 16.66% ]
Snake 220.93 [12.75%] - [ 20.0% / 20.0% / 21.66% / 13.33% ]
Wario 136.03 [7.85%] - [ 6.66% / 3.33% / 5.0% / 2.5% ]
Mr. Game & Watch 93.79 [5.41%] - [ 6.66% / 3.33% / 5.0% / 8.33% ]
King Dedede 89.89 [5.18%] - [ 3.33% / 20.0% / 6.66% / 7.5% ]
Marth 89.39 [5.16%] - [ 10.0% / 3.33% / 13.33% / 10.0% ]
Donkey Kong 76.47 [4.41%] - [ 3.33% / 10.0% / 6.66% / 5.83% ]
Lucario 70.57 [4.07%] - [ 10.0% / 3.33% / 5.0% / 4.16% ]
Diddy Kong 52.95 [3.05%] - [ 0.0% / 3.33% / 8.33% / 5.0% ]
Ice Climbers 46.06 [2.65%] - [ 3.33% / 13.33% / 1.66% / 2.5% ]
R.O.B. 36.32 [2.09%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 10.0% / 6.66% ]
Pit 33.47 [1.93%] - [ 3.33% / 6.66% / 1.66% / 1.66% ]
Falco 31.82 [1.83%] - [ 0.0% / 3.33% / 8.33% / 4.16% ]
Zelda/Sheik 31.22 [1.80%] - [ 3.33% / 10.0% / 1.66% / 2.5% ]
Sonic 31.18 [1.80%] - [ 10.0% / 3.33% / 0.0% / 4.16% ]
Zero Suit Samus 28.21 [1.62%] - [ 0.0% / 3.33% / 1.66% / 3.33% ]
Olimar 26.06 [1.50%] - [ 0.0% / 3.33% / 6.66% / 2.5% ]
Kirby 24.25 [1.39%] - [ 0.0% / 6.66% / 0.0% / 4.16% ]
Ike 19.55 [1.12%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 6.66% / 0.83% ]
Peach 18.62 [1.07%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.66% / 3.33% ]
Wolf 15.19 [0.87%] - [ 3.33% / 0.0% / 3.33% / 2.5% ]
Pikachu 14.59 [0.84%] - [ 6.66% / 3.33% / 1.66% / 0.83% ]
Lucas 11.13 [0.64%] - [ 3.33% / 3.33% / 1.66% / 1.66% ]
Bowser 11.12 [0.64%] - [ 3.33% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.83% ]
Luigi 8.73 [0.50%] - [ 3.33% / 0.0% / 1.66% / 1.66% ]
Fox 7.73 [0.44%] - [ 3.33% / 0.0% / 1.66% / 1.66% ]
Toon Link 6.37 [0.36%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 2.5% ]
Captain Falcon 5.45 [0.31%] - [ 3.33% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.83% ]
Link 4.53 [0.26%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 5.0% ]
Mario 4.25 [0.24%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.66% / 1.66% ]
Jigglypuff 3.25 [0.18%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.66% / 0.0% ]
Yoshi 3.06 [0.17%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.66% ]
Pokemon Trainer 1.30 [0.07%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 1.66% ]
Ness 0.78 [0.04%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.83% ]
Ganondorf 0.45 [0.02%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.83% ]
Samus 0.37 [0.02%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.83% ]
Totals: [150.00/150.00/151.66/134.16]

Total Results:
Meta Knight 3433.93 [21.54%] - [ 31.03% / 22.98% / 19.73% / 13.79% ]
Snake 2527.18 [15.85%] - [ 21.83% / 17.24% / 16.09% / 10.72% ]
King Dedede 1160.95 [7.28%] - [ 9.57% / 11.49% / 9.38% / 6.80% ]
Wario 1028.61 [6.45%] - [ 6.89% / 3.83% / 4.59% / 2.49% ]
Mr. Game & Watch 920.00 [5.77%] - [ 8.04% / 8.04% / 8.42% / 6.99% ]
Falco 799.96 [5.01%] - [ 4.21% / 6.13% / 6.32% / 5.93% ]
Marth 780.84 [4.89%] - [ 5.74% / 6.89% / 9.57% / 8.23% ]
Lucario 597.46 [3.74%] - [ 5.74% / 3.83% / 4.21% / 3.54% ]
R.O.B. 586.66 [3.68%] - [ 3.44% / 3.83% / 6.51% / 6.60% ]
Diddy Kong 398.96 [2.50%] - [ 1.53% / 4.21% / 3.63% / 4.31% ]
Donkey Kong 389.83 [2.44%] - [ 4.59% / 4.21% / 4.21% / 3.06% ]
Olimar 369.84 [2.32%] - [ 1.53% / 3.83% / 5.36% / 3.73% ]
Kirby 342.65 [2.14%] - [ 1.14% / 5.36% / 3.25% / 3.73% ]
Ice Climbers 272.25 [1.70%] - [ 3.44% / 4.21% / 2.87% / 2.20% ]
Peach 272.01 [1.70%] - [ 1.53% / 4.59% / 1.91% / 2.01% ]
Wolf 267.45 [1.67%] - [ 2.68% / 2.29% / 3.06% / 4.40% ]
Pikachu 235.48 [1.47%] - [ 4.21% / 2.68% / 2.49% / 2.10% ]
Pit 232.66 [1.45%] - [ 1.53% / 2.68% / 1.72% / 1.62% ]
Zelda/Sheik 170.83 [1.07%] - [ 1.91% / 2.29% / 2.49% / 3.16% ]
Fox 170.48 [1.06%] - [ 2.68% / 0.38% / 1.53% / 1.62% ]
Zero Suit Samus 144.04 [0.90%] - [ 0.38% / 1.14% / 1.91% / 1.62% ]
Sonic 127.47 [0.79%] - [ 2.68% / 0.76% / 1.14% / 1.72% ]
Toon Link 88.49 [0.55%] - [ 0.76% / 0.76% / 0.95% / 3.16% ]
Ike 83.44 [0.52%] - [ 0.38% / 1.14% / 1.53% / 1.14% ]
Luigi 69.10 [0.43%] - [ 1.53% / 1.53% / 0.57% / 1.05% ]
Pokemon Trainer 67.77 [0.42%] - [ 1.14% / 0.38% / 0.38% / 0.76% ]
Lucas 66.08 [0.41%] - [ 0.76% / 0.38% / 0.76% / 1.43% ]
Bowser 64.01 [0.40%] - [ 0.76% / 1.14% / 0.57% / 0.47% ]
Ness 60.17 [0.37%] - [ 0.38% / 0.38% / 0.38% / 1.53% ]
Mario 45.50 [0.28%] - [ 0.38% / 0.38% / 0.57% / 1.53% ]
Jigglypuff 40.53 [0.25%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.76% / 0.19% ]
Samus 35.96 [0.22%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.19% / 1.34% ]
Link 33.27 [0.20%] - [ 0.0% / 0.76% / 0.38% / 0.67% ]
Yoshi 25.29 [0.15%] - [ 0.0% / 0.0% / 0.57% / 1.43% ]
Captain Falcon 18.69 [0.11%] - [ 0.76% / 0.0% / 0.19% / 0.67% ]
Ganondorf 10.12 [0.06%] - [ 0.38% / 0.38% / 0.38% / 0.38% ]
Totals: [133.71/130.26/128.73/116.28]

 

[aeghrur]

Hey, look, sonic is #22. That's pretty good for such a low tiered character. I'm happy. ^_^

 

[Yuna]

Well, against Falcon as Marth I've got FoD, Brinstar, Corneria, and Mute City (if anyone thinks of more bad Falcon stages let me know)

According to you yourself, Brinstar, Corneria and Mute City are anti-Marth. Well, Brinstar is more anti-CF, so it's valid. Corneria, how is it so anti-CF? MC is anti-everyone who's not Peach, Jigglypuff or Samus, pretty much.

I don't even know what you're on about FoD. What makes FoD such a great CP for Marth vs. CF?

So with this Marth completely wrecks Falcon, since he can take Falcon to bad stages on counterpicks?

Do you have the statistics for the match-up on those stages? Or have you just heard that "they counter CF" and assume that means an 8-2?

 

[Overswarm]

Yuna, CF did poorly on FoD due to his inability to perform free-form shuffled aerials at will; the platforms height often messed him up. This was the opposite for marth, who could hit CF onto the platforms and **** from there.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, CF did poorly on FoD due to his inability to perform free-form shuffled aerials at will; the platforms height often messed him up. This was the opposite for marth, who could hit CF onto the platforms and **** from there.

But why would CF be shuffling aerials on the moving platforms to start with? CF's aerials lag so little that even without shuffling, he can still combo off of his aerials and throws on the platforms.

I'm not seeing the Marth-CF-****. FoD is not one of CF's best stages, but it's not some kind of anti-CF Marth CP.

 

[Dark Sonic]

According to you yourself, Brinstar, Corneria and Mute City are anti-Marth. Well, Brinstar is more anti-CF, so it's valid. Corneria, how is it so anti-CF? MC is anti-everyone who's not Peach, Jigglypuff or Samus, pretty much.

Well, for Corneria I've got fin camping and Falcon can't do much about it, and the section on the right is too small for him to do any dash dance camping.

Mute City is just small so Falcon can't camp. So really it's just another small stage to give Marth the advantage

I don't even know what you're on about FoD. What makes FoD such a great CP for Marth vs. CF?

Didn't you know that FoD is one of Falcon's worst stages? The platforms interupt all his short hops, the small stage prevents dash dance camping and forces him off the stage often (not exactly where he wants to be), and basically there is nothing on that stage that helps him. And the top platform interupts full hops too. So much for Falcon using aerials...at all (well, he can use them, he's just really limited in how he uses them)

Marth takes full advantage of all of this, making great use of the platforms and getting even more opportunties to make use of his amazing edgeguarding. He can hit under the platforms with his aerials (Falcon can too, but he's got to get through Marth's sword first), he can juggle from platform to platform, he can reach the platforms from the ledge, he can tip people under the platforms. FoD is actually one of Marth's best stages.

Do you have the statistics for the match-up on those stages? Or have you just heard that "they counter CF" and assume that means an 8-2?

There are no statistics for the match-up. There are no written down statistics for any matchup (or at least the ones written down are outdated and not neccesarily reliable).

My point is that counterpick stages shouldn't be considered when discussing the matchup, because the entire point of counterpicking (the only point of counterpicking actually) is to tip the match more in your favor, by using a stage that's good for you or bad for them (or both). If the entire point of using counterpick stages is to scew matchups from what they previously were, then why should they be considered when trying to make objective matchups?

Neutrals should obviously be considered (since you are forced to play on them anyway and by definition they try to give as few character specific advantages as possible), but counterpicks? No, I think they're just considered when you're...counterpicking.

 

[Justin Wiles]

But why would CF be shuffling aerials on the moving platforms to start with? CF's aerials lag so little that even without shuffling, he can still combo off of his aerials and throws on the platforms.

I'm not seeing the Marth-CF-****. FoD is not one of CF's best stages, but it's not some kind of anti-CF Marth CP.

Hahaha!

10charplz.