Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[Massive]

The most annoying thing about falcon is that if you get grabbed, it's a guaranteed knee.

 

[Mahone]

i mean technically i think thats true, but if you mix up down and away, and up and in, most falcons will mess up occasionally because they get in a habit of punishing one, and don't react fast enough to the other one... so keep that in mind

 

[Massive]

i mean technically i think thats true, but if you mix up down and away, and up and in, most falcons will mess up occasionally because they get in a habit of punishing one, and don't react fast enough to the other one... so keep that in mind

The only falcons I play even semi regularly are Jace and Darkrain.

 

[Tamoo]

Yeah same, I've only got fuzzyness lol. A grab sure is a stock. Sure are a lot of ways to get into a falcon with smart play though so I can't complain.

 

[Mahone]

well.. ur both ****ed lol

 

[0Room]

I heard he could maybe grab you if he dash grabbed.
True/false?

 

[idea]

don't think so. marth can if he dash grabs, though.

 

[hungrybox]

Grabby playstyle beats falcon

Nair into crouch is godly

drill into shield and land behind him

uptilt rest almost always shield pokes

etc

 

[Strong Badam]

The most annoying thing about falcon is that if you get grabbed, it's a guaranteed knee.

I think you can rest him out of it with down & away DI. Sliq did it against Darkrain at POE2 IIRC.

 

[idea]

nah, that's only if they screw up
MAYBE at some weird percents or something, but afaik only if they mistime it
still probably worth it if you see them react slowly out of the throw, but i never really do that, i'd rather take my chances with DI.

and yeah, i forgot to mention drill. it just eats through shields.

 

[FoxLisk]

no if you DI down and away at the right angle you can always air dodge away and escape the knee. they can still uair you. magus made a thread about it a while ago.

 

[idea]

oh really? damn, i'll have to remember that.

 

[Manatee]

Hey Mahone, I got another match of mine recorded at a tournament and I was wondering if you could critique my play again. I know he sandbagging a lot, but I wanted to know if you, or anyone saw, something I need to improve on, stop doing, or do more of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIWMv9NiunM&feature=channel_video_title

 

[Mahone]

You did really good game 1.

The main issue was that you are constantly attacking. You need to start baiting and using stuff like empty hop and shielding more, because you were just constantly doing one move, then going right into another move, but lovage was fsmashing you because he knew that you would always go in... so basically sometimes instead of going strait for the ledge or strait for him, make it look like you're doing that, but then weave out and bait his attacks more.

Besides that i think you know the other problems, they all seemed like wrong inputs or nervousness, so again good stuff.

Game 2.

i can't believe this is the same puff from that peach match lol, you got a lot better. The main problem is that you play too grounded against falco. If you stay on the ground, he can laser to force you into shield and then shield pressure you.... you gotta get up in the air more to avoid those lasers.

I would give you more advice but you won lol

There isn't too much specific stuff i can see, most of the times you get hit its because his spacing is better imo, so just practice against falco more to get used to how fast his moves come out and where they hit. The other main issue was consistancy, you just do a lot of wrong inputs, just like i do when im in tournament... just watch the video and whenever you see a spot where u messed up (like in game 1 when you did the jump off the ledge on stage by accident instead of dropping of the ledge and hitting his firefox), just practice it alot with a cpu or a friend until you don't mess up.

 

[FoxLisk]

damn that combo at 2:57 was nasty.

anyway. most of what i would say is covered in mahone's post, but here's a couple other things:

First of all, get in the habit of punishing missed techs with jab when you can. it's a lot safer than going for an fsmash cause you have more time to react and less lag to be punished for.

secondly, i think a big problem is you dont deal with falco's shield pressure well. the fraction of times that lovage hit your shield that resulted in him getting a hit on you was way too high. i would recommend getting good at WD OoS, and then just figuring out where the gaps are that you can exploit with either that or buffer rolls.

 

[idea]

even if you really don't want to rest, jab reset fsmash is still better than just fsmash. they might even DI it like **** if they're expecting you to rest.

 

[Massive]

no if you DI down and away at the right angle you can always air dodge away and escape the knee. they can still uair you. magus made a thread about it a while ago.

If true, this is my holy grail.
Link/video/gif please?

 

[FoxLisk]

i dont feel like looking for it... use the search button

 

[Massive]

Every character except for Jiggs and Kirby can escape d-throw knee by DIing -30° (starting from the down+away notch go 1/3 towards away) and either teching if you're not really floaty or DJ/wiggle out of tumble -> airdodge in an away direction. The airdodge needs to be in an away direction since you are vulnerable during the startup and moving away during that time is what keeps you out of range.

Ideally, the moment before it connects you'd smash away (wiggling out of tumble only requires a single tap to the side) directly into L/R on the following frame, then quickly switching to survival DI in case you didn't do it right and eat the knee (or they u-aired instead which is inescapable). DJing away into the airdodge is slightly easier but can obviously waste your jump if you mess up and still get hit.

This DI makes d-throw knee fail on a lot of characters that people think it combos on. Even G&W can tech out of it and he's extremely light (less lag on the throw) as well as somewhat floaty. Zelda is one of the few that can't tech it, but unlike Kirby/Jiggs you are guaranteed a very small opening to act before he can get to you when you DI the throw that low.

If it'd put you offstage and he has room to dash into the jump without the jump canceling at the edge though it'd be better to go for inbetween SH and FJ knee height since airdodging wouldn't be an option, and instant DJ knees are slower and harder to combo. On the other hand, if you're right near the edge do the low trajectory since he can run off DJ knee easily but won't be able to dash SH knee to get you far offstage.

You got my hopes up and it turned out the Grail was a lie.
I guess I'll keep working on my "wavedash under nairs, don't get grabbed" strategy.

 

[Mahone]

Foxlisk reminds me of a mix between Bamesy and Rubyiris

 

[FoxLisk]

oh ****. sorry guys. i guess that only helps everyone except you.

**** you mahone

 

[Mahone]

oh ****. sorry guys. i guess that only helps everyone except you.

**** you mahone

and kirby.....

 

[FoxLisk]

but there arent any kirby players... that was the joke....

 

[Mahone]

have u seen my kirby, they call it the falcon slayer

 

[FoxLisk]

yeah i saw it lose to my falcon.

 

[idea]

yo whatever, kirby *****

he has like 11 jumps

roughly

typing like this is fun sometimes
holy **** this isn't invisible anymore

 

[Manatee]

Thanks Mahone and FoxLisk for the critique; I really appreciate it. I've been trying to incorporate wave dashing out shield more into my play but I keep messing it. Do you guys have any tips for that? (I always shield with R and I always wave dash with R as well. Should I be trying to L instead?)

Also, I always have trouble with my Falcon match up. What do you guys think I should be doing against him?

 

[FoxLisk]

Thanks Mahone and FoxLisk for the critique; I really appreciate it. I've been trying to incorporate wave dashing out shield more into my play but I keep messing it. Do you guys have any tips for that? (I always shield with R and I always wave dash with R as well. Should I be trying to L instead?)

Also, I always have trouble with my Falcon match up. What do you guys think I should be doing against him?

yes. you should use different button for shield and wavedash. For some reason everyone I tell that to gets like extremely angry and defensive though, so feel free to just learn it with one button if you like; it's definitely doable.

tips for what, though? WDing oos or doing it in game? For just doing it, you go home and practice a lot, and for doing it in game, you spam it until it comes naturally... same way you learn any technique. there's no tricks, just get good at it.

e: vs falcon, i think very safe play is rewarded best. like, focus more on not letting him get anything started than on getting in on him. I dont play jiggs though so completely disregard that when you get real advice

 

[idea]

wavedash out of shield: just practice really. i...think i shield with L and wavedash with R. it's not a big difference though, mostly you just have to get used to the timing.

falcon: i made a big post about that a page or two back actually =P

 

[Mahone]

does anyone know up to what percent u should be cc grabbing fox's nair?

and how do u beat full hop nair??? Obviously u can space out of its range and grab it or at low percent cc it, but im trying to beat it... when i try to sh->any attack, it beats it, and ive been working with upsmash, but it always seems to trade, and except if ur at 0 and they're at like 20, it seems like the trade isn't worth it... but at percents around that, you can usually not have to tech and jab reset them... so idk.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Uair maybe?

I know Darc tosses out Uairs when Fox does FJ Nairs and if he trades at low percent / beats the Nair he gets a free Rest.

 

[FoxLisk]

shouldnt CC grab do it? FH nairs tend to be pretty weak by the time the fox player lands (unless he's waiting til the last second to throw them, but thats rare), so you can CC them until high percents.

 

[idea]

does anyone know up to what percent u should be cc grabbing fox's nair?

and how do u beat full hop nair??? Obviously u can space out of its range and grab it or at low percent cc it, but im trying to beat it... when i try to sh->any attack, it beats it, and ive been working with upsmash, but it always seems to trade, and except if ur at 0 and they're at like 20, it seems like the trade isn't worth it... but at percents around that, you can usually not have to tech and jab reset them... so idk.

yeah, fox's fullhop nairs are kind of weird for jiggs...they just take up so much space...

basically my thought process on this was the same as KK's. "maybe upair would work...i know darc uses upair a lot...*go watch videos* yup, that's one of the times he uses it"

you have to upair pretty early though, the move has a bunch of startup lag.

of course, you could always just get out of the way.
and...if they space FJ nair to try and hit behind you, to cover the running away option, that puts them far enough out that sometimes you can go under them and bair where they land.

CC grab can work too. actually i'd like to know the % where that stops working too.

 

[FoxLisk]

problem is that the % where CC grab stops working depends on too much stuff. It depends on when he starts his nair and how well he spaces it. Like, if he starts the nair early but hits you with the tip of his foot it probably wont work at even like 30-40%, but if he starts it early and hits the middle of your body it'll probably work to like 70%ish. Fox's nair gets really, really weak towards the end. It's more of an experience thing than something that can be defined easily.

 

[Sliq]

I think you can rest him out of it with down & away DI. Sliq did it against Darkrain at POE2 IIRC.

It's pretty unreliable, but it's your best option against being murdered.

essentially, if you land it once, they will be more cautious about the down throw knee from then on, maybe going so far as to up air instead. Your best option is to just duck the grab and then rest him.

 

[pyrotek7x7]

I have a question: why was the Sheik matchup apparently so bad some years ago, but now it's positive? What changed?

I'm wondering because I'm a Marth main, but I'm planning on subbing Jiggs to cover his bad matchups.

 

[Mahone]

Well, in the past there were only a few jiggs players, so most sheiks didn't bother learning the matchup, but now that there are more jiggs, they have started learning some of the tricks of the matchup.

Honestly you should still definitely learn jiggs as a secondary for marth, i think its a great idea and have taught my friend the jiggs sheik matchup because he keeps losing to sheik (as marth) in tourney.

Even with sheik playing the matchup right, its still definitely jiggs favor, and probably sheik's worst matchup besides mabye ICs. Also, there still aren't too many jiggs so sheiks still don't really know all the tricks, so you can get them with a lot of rest setups that shouldn't really work.... kinda like how most marths know that if you fsmash jiggs shield, you can get rested so they shouldn't do it, but most marths will probably still go for fsmashes out of habit unless they play a jiggs regularly. I hope that makes sense...

Sorry if i gave the wrong impression in my guide, it definitely is a really easy matchup, but i didn't wanna just say it was easy, because that seems against the idea of making a guide

 

[Manatee]

What does everyone think about using Z for aerials? I started using it recently and it's really improving my edge guards and wall of pains.

Hmmm... Now that I think about it... edge guards and wall of pains are kind of the same thing for Jigglypuff...



Edit: So I recently played in a money match and got it recorded. Can you guys critique my play? They really help!

Here's part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYgtXCU8Ho

and part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjmUdGex1z0

 

[username12345678]

What does everyone think about using Z for aerials? I started using it recently and it's really improving my edge guards and wall of pains.

Hmmm... Now that I think about it... edge guards and wall of pains are kind of the same thing for Jigglypuff...



Edit: So I recently played in a money match and got it recorded. Can you guys critique my play? They really help!

Here's part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYgtXCU8Ho

and part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjmUdGex1z0

im pretty sure Mr.Box uses Z for aerials

 

[idea]

oh right, this thing

someone pick a matchup and i'll write some stuff about it, if anyone wants =P