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Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

Discussion in 'Jigglypuff' started by Mahone, Mar 3, 2011.

  1. Mahone

    Mahone
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    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2010
    Messages:
    2,938
    Location:
    Blacksburg, VA
    Mang0's original Stuff About Puff thread

    Camping
    Before we talk about puff stuff, we gotta get this out of the way...

    These are mango's thoughts on camping:
    Before I start all of this.. I got one thing to say..Once there was a great man named Gimpyfish who told me something..That Changed my life =). He said "u dont have to go to him if u dont want him". Which means is like when someone is camping u dont have to go to them all the time. JUST BE PATIENT!!! and keep ur spacing people!


    Here's my thoughts:
    This is one of the biggest issues with playing puff. If you play in a way that is even remotely safe you are going to be called gay.

    You have two options...

    1. Play aggressive and only beat people you are SIGNIFICANTLY better than (the mango approach)
    2. Screw the haters and just play smart, even if it’s considered "gay" (the right approach)

    I am so tired of fox players camping you for 8 minutes and then getting upthrow rested and then calling you gay and claiming they are better and it’s just jiggs…

    Jigglypuff gets camped harder than any other top tier!!

    ... So don't feel bad if you counter camp!!

    Jiggs is a slow character and does not have the shield pressure of the spacies so of course she is going to approach less and bait the opponent more…



    Matchups:


    The ***** Sheik
    Mahone Percentage: 60-40 Puff wins
    Actual Percentage: 60-40 Puff wins

    If you play a really bad, or even mid level sheik, you will probably think this matchup is like 80-20 puff, but if sheik plays it right it can be much more difficult. A good sheik will not give you all those free crouch rests (although you will still get some inevitably), but instead will camp with needles and space bairs while abusing platforms (using needles and fairs).

    I think this matchup is one of the few that you can be pretty aggressive in. In my experience if you don’t approach the sheik will just camp a platform while throwing needles at you. You need to watch for the sheik’s platform camping pattern and then punish it. For example, the sheik might run of the platform with a fair when you try to approach her on the platform, so you would want to bait that fair and hit her with a bair or grab her, etc.

    A lot of sheiks like to move around the platforms a lot, so just try to catch them with upairs from below, these should lead to very good combos and often times easy rests. Also pound is pretty ****, it can also lead to rests, but use it sparingly since it’s so laggy (and only use it when sheik is airborne... upsmash oos hurts). As for her ground game, that’s where you reign supreme… you can outspace her with fairs and bairs most of the time, I especially like going for bair/fair to falling upair on her shield (you can condition her to shield with the spaced bairs/fairs) because than can lead to an easy rest… plus if it doesn’t hit just land right in front of her and crouch and most sheiks will try to grab on reaction (at least the first time) and you can rest them, even if they don't grab, there isn't much she can do in that position… you can also mix up your approaches with empty hop to land in front of her… then just guess the timing of her letting go of shield and uptilt for a low risk/high reward rest setup.

    Because sheik is forced to shield if you can space your bairs well… you can grab her and downthrow her, which will often times result in a rest… if she di’s in at low to mid percents then you can just rest out of the downthrow, but if she di’s away on most stages, she will have to land on a platform and you have a chance at a techchase rest (just a tip… if you have no idea on their teching habits, tech in place seems to be the most common tech option).

    Edguarding is easy, just try to aerial her when she’s far off the stage and when she gets close, edgehog to force her to upb on stage and then rest her. Just make sure to practice your jump off the ledge timings so you don’t accidently get hit by the up-b when trying to rest her on stage… the timing can be pretty tight if she upbs really far on stage… also watch out for wall jump bair tricks if she is close enough to do so.

    Recovering is pretty easy, she will most likely grab the ledge and do bairs off of it... its the only real thing you have to avoid, so even though it has pretty good range, it is easy enough to avoid once you get used to it. Some aggro sheiks will also be willing to do quick run off fairs or wall jump fair stuff, but most will be too uncomfortable offstage vs puff to try those kind of tricks.

    Also remember than when she grabs you, di the downthrow AWAY and then the fair IN… if you don’t di the throw away, you can get upsmashed or upaired, which kill a lot earlier… sometimes if I know im dead to a dthrow fair, I will di up and in hoping that they mess up, but besides that I don’t ever see it being worth it.

    You can rest A LOT of her moves (listed below in the pros section) and she has the worst rest punish of the high tiers, which leads to some pretty fun games… I personally love going for nair rest, because if I miss at low percents I just eat an upsmash, which doesn’t do much, and if I’m at a really high percent, I was probably gonna die soon anyway, but if it hits it kills her at like 0% lol… poor sheik… oh well just take your free win, jiggs has enough hard matchups.

    Levels To Counterpick:
    Mangoland - she still dies quick but you don't
    Final Destination - is can be good because there are no platforms for her to camp

    Levels to Ban:
    Battlefield - It's platforms are just great for sheik to camp effectively and she can use them to move around

    GOOD MATCH TO WATCH: Hbox vs Amsah (notice the rest spamming)


    Postives In the Matchup

    • You can crouch her grab, ftilt, jab, and more and rest it!
    • Edguarding is easy, just try to aerial her when far off the stage and when she gets close, edgehog to force her to upb on stage and then rest her
    • nairing -> crouch or uptilt is ****, sometimes if i need it i just go for nair rest because....
    • She has one of the worst rest punishes (her best one imo is to fully charge needles and then grab slap you)
    • You can rest out of shield her dash attack if she misspaces, her fsmash, and i've heard her downsmash, but its hard
    • Easy rest setups, besides crouch you can: uptilt, upair, pound sometimes, downthrow to platform techchase rest (if she dis the downthrow so shes above you, rest her!) and all of these rests will kill her at very low percents.
    Negatives In the Matchup

    • Grab leads to a slap up to death percent
    • Needle and platform camping is hard to deal with sometimes

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    Freaking Marth
    Mahone Percentage: 60-40 Puff wins
    Actual Percentage: 55-45 Marth wins

    I don’t care what most puffs say… this matchup is not puff favor!!! I’ve been playing Marth players since I started playing (both my main training partners are marth mains)… so much that now it’s my best matchup, even though I ****ING hate it.

    Luckily most marths play the matchup horribly wrong so it doesn’t really matter…

    What you want to do in this matchup is play a lot more patient than you normally do… marth is one of the few, if not only, characters that can just outspace all of your moves. Normally it’s the other way around, where jiggs is the master of poking with single hits, but gets punished hard when the opponent gets in… but in this matchup, you will be the one getting zoned out and poked, but when you get in you can combo Marth hard.

    Make no mistake, you can still get comboed if Marth gets one of those stupid inside fairs, but that shouldn’t happen too often if you keep your spacing… also remember to di all of his hits AWAY, don’t worry about dying, his moves don’t kill until really high percents unless he gets a tipper.

    Just try running up and shielding when Marth is walling you out, and then fair out of shield… or try to get a well spaced bair in to disrupt his wall, but really you are just waiting for him to mess up or get predictable. I like to pound when I have a good read on my opponent because even though its risky, it will lead to insane combos, bair chains, and sometimes rest, also it has good range and its hitbox stays out long, so it can catch a lot of marths off guard. The best move you have for comboing marth is upair, if you can get an upair off when he messes up and you get in, it will lead to more upairs to rest or to bairs that will get him off stage.

    Once you get marth with a bair close to the ledge, he will usually be dead because he will either have to di in and get baired again or di out and die to the final bair plus edgehoging. Edgeguarding marth is pretty simple… it’s similar to sheik, just bair him when he’s far away and edgehog when hes close to force an up-b onstage and rest it… but unlike sheik, marth can defend himself against your bair offstage pretty well, and can use his side-b to mess up your ledge invul timing… I like marthkiller(ask someone in this thread to explain it if you don't know what this is) a lot because it prevents his timing mindgames when he has to recover low.

    One of the hardest parts of this matchup is coming down against marth. He can safely go for upairs when he is below you because your dair sucks and you have no move that can outspace it from above, so he gets free chances to hit you with upair… and once it hits he gets to do it all over again… what I do is use a lot of jumps to avoid it and most marths with do some sort of laggy move predicting you will come down, like uptilt or fsmash, and that’s when you can finally come down safely (and maybe even punish them). If they don’t fall for your tricks, just land on the top platform to regain your jumps and try to juke the marth out horizontally… hopefully they will eventually mess up, as it is actually pretty hard for the marth to keep his spacing while moving around and trying to watch for what you are doing.

    On the ground you just have to watch out for grabs, make sure that you duck if you predict it and you can rest him, also some marths like to dash attack, but if they misspace it you can rest it out of shield. Besides that most marths won’t really be approaching you on the ground, they will just be fairing trying to get single hits. If you do get grabbed, make sure to di DOWN so they can’t tipper you (that should be good enough vs most marths, the full grab/di mixup stuff is pretty complicated, i won't get into here).

    The spacing I like being in this matchup is just outside of tipper spacing, it can be really risky at first because you could be wrong and you know… get tippered, but I’ve played the matchup so much I am used to it. When starting out though, you can just stay a little farther outside of tipper spacing… then be patient and wait for him to misspace; you also should quickly move forward when its safe and shield to throw off his spacing so you can hopefully punish. You will also be forced to retreat a lot since he will try to move into tipper spacing … just watch out for ftilt… that move is too good (but no marth’s use it for some reason). You can also choose to try to play more in the air, trying to stay outside the fair and fsmash arcs and then fall down on him with aerials (that you will have to weave out at cc percents).

    Also, BE PATIENT. It can be annoying when you keep getting outspaced and you can't get in but don't be impatient, remember that those are just single hits and he can't even kill you until crazy high percents so the damage isn't that big a deal. Just wait for the marth to mess up, they eventually will. Also remember to bait stuff and move around to mess up his spacing, you should be able to get a good read on your opponent because while they are putting up their wall and you are at a safe distance, you can focus 100% of your mind on what their aerial patterns are, their reactions to certain movements you do, etc.

    Levels To Counterpick:
    Dreamland - he can't ever kill you, most marths will start spamming side-b hoping to combo into uptilt, but you can di it and it is easy to outspace/bait marth because hes so eager for the kill
    Battlefield is the next best stages, but its pretty neutral, not a huge advantage like dreamland.

    Levels To Ban:
    Yoshi's Story - you can die at zero from random throw to tipper, and overall you die too early, but sometimes you can get quick kills via edgeguards and rests (downthrow will lead to a follow up no matter where you start it on this stage)
    Pokemon Stadium - This is actually pretty good for marth because he has space to move around and can kill early, but I would still ban Yoshi's because if you mess up your di just once on that stage it can mean death.

    GOOD MATCH TO WATCH: Mango vs. M2k (notice the fairs oos and the patience)


    Postives In the Matchup

    • Jiggly Can Combo HARD once she hits (mango's advice)
    • Marth cant really kill besides the dumb tipper (mango's advice)
    • Up Air RAPES MARTH (mango's advice)
    • You can crouch standing/jc grab to rest (or running grab if you start crouching as he grabs)
    • Rest oos misspaced Fsmash, downsmashes, dash attack
    • You can actually crouch uptilt (and getup attack i think) to rest if you are close enough lol
    • Edgeguarding is easy

    Negatives In the Matchup

    • Random fthrow, dthrow mixup to tipper kills early (make sure to di down/down and away)
    • Can keep you out forever
    • When you are above marth you are kinda ****ed
    • If he gets an inner fair, you are going to be taking a few more aerials before you can get out

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    Stupid Fox
    Mahone Percentage: 50-50
    Actual Percentage: 60-40 Fox wins

    Puff rapes aggro fox, but gets ***** by camping fox. And when i say campy, i don't mean running around for 8 minutes after shooting one laser, which is what most people think of... I mean dash dance camping, a little top plaform camping maybe, and only lasering to force you to approach or to put you in kill percent if you're close to it.

    Against aggro fox, just wd back to grab and just keep bairing all of his approaches. You should be able to get a lot of edgeguards and upthrow rests against this type of fox. This type of fox will try to force running upsmashes against you when you are in kill percents. Remember that if they misspace the upsmash on your sheild you can rest it oos, otherwise wd oos and grab foxes that upsmash. Against this type of fox you won't need to do empty hops and tricks as much because he won't be shielding as much... just space bairs and wd back and don't worry if people call you gay.

    Against campy fox, you are going to have to get really tricky. Most of your rests are going to be trades because a smart fox will laser you to kill percent every stock before they start actually approaching (I'm overexaggerating, it won't be JUST lasers to rack up the damage, you will also get hit with some safe shines and aerials) and they will di the rests down. I think you should still take all of these rests because you need them even if they trade since this is a losing matchup (and you benefit from both players being at last stock, since you can be at 999% and still rest for the win).

    You are going to have to approach, so make sure you weave out with all of your aerials so that you can't get shield grabbed. Against this type of fox i think the most important thing is abusing his shielding. You have to be spot on and quickly notice when he starts shielding because he predicts aerials... then you have to empty hop and grab him or do something like falling upair to uptilt. Another tip is that most puffs uptilt right away which will probably work the first time when the fox is caught off guard and tries to react right away, but eventually they will wait in shield so you will have to wait also and predict when to uptilt... its really easy to get a feel for this, just think about when you would try to get out of shield if you were fox and its usual the same timing as them.

    You will also benefit from watching their approach habits and general jump habits and getting upairs off, at super low percents, you can usually get sh upair to grab to upthrow rest if you hit one of their approaches, because that whole sequence is very hard to react to. In my experience, fox is too fast to react to, you will usually have to predict when you go for upairs, but this is essential since upair leads to the strongest punishes, along with grabs. Which is also why you need to make many finite adjustments to your spacing and just try to always stay just out of range of fox's approaches so you can get a grab.

    If they are plaform camping, it can be hard, especially if it's the top platform. The problem with the top platform is that it takes you to many jumps to get up to him and he can just drop down shine jump back up and repeat or mix in some aerials. A much better way to approach is to get on the side platforms and then approach horizontally with bairs or from underneath with upairs. Basically what you have to do against platform camping is get one good upair off, because it will lead to so many upairs or rest if you want. Just wait for fox to tech and then upair, you can cover all the options if you space correctly under the platform. Once you get enough upairs you will have to land (or to be quicker waveland) on the platform and then continue with more upairs or finish with a rest or bair -> edgeguard opportunity. Another tip is that when you are pressuring a fox when they are near the ledge, they like to waveland the platform -> bairing you or just getting to the top platform so try to predict it and catch them with upair.

    Make sure you tech shines. If you don't, fox can reactively grab rolls so you basically have a mixup between getup or not getup attack, and when you are right nothing happens, but when you are wrong you get grabbed to upthrow upair... so make sure you get used to situations where you get shined because its really fast and hard to react to.

    You have to master sdi'ing foxes upair. If you can get full di behind fox on his upthrow you will usually just get a bair so that's a good option, but fox can still hit an upair and foxes are getting better at this. It's actually easier and better in my opinion to not di the upthrow and then smashdi the upair the way that the fox is facing. If you do di, you will have to use your judgement to decide how to sdi, usually its the opposite of which way they are running because they are likely to overshoot, but some foxes will undershoot so just use your judgement. Also at high percents, like ~70+, i always sdi the upair up, and i have a 90%+ rate of getting out, so DO THAT!! Also, if they upair you by overlapping you instead of just hitting with their feet you can rest them out of it. I don't think i can react quick enough to do it consistently, but you should try in out and friendlies and get a feel for it, also it might be worth it at like 0% to go for it, since the risk/reward is in your favor even if you are doing it just predicting they mispace.

    EPIC MANGO QUOTE --> "go all out because ur going to die at 70 percent anyways"

    Levels To Counterpick:
    Mangoland - He has to start killing with bairs at 150 or get random upsmashes (which is good for you because you can punish random upsmashes HARD). He will probably resort to camping though, so keep that in mind.
    Fountain of Dreams and Battlefield are also pretty good. Fod has a high ceiling and Battlefield takes away some of their recovery options.

    Levels To Ban:
    OH GOD... this is the worst!

    Pokemon Stadium - He can camp easily and then get kills hella early because of the low ceiling, also the transformations are random and annoying.
    Yoshi's Story - He gets kills hella early but at least back throw anywhere gets him off stage and you can get a lot of edgeguards, also rest will kill at very low percents even if they di, but so will the rest punish :(

    Final Destination - Some foxes **** on this stage because they can dash dance and laser camp really well and can get upthrow upair galore, but on the plus side i find it simpler to figure out their habits and outspace them since platforms aren't a variable.

    GOOD MATCH TO WATCH:

    Aggro: Mango vs. Armada (I know its Armada's fox, but its a good example of aggresive fox, notice the wavedash backs)

    Campy: Hbox vs Jman (notice everything, great match)


    Postives In the Matchup

    • Backthrow off the stage to edgegaurd is really good, you can kill at zero if you guess right.
    • Nair to fsmash or dash attack at high percents, at low percents weive out with all your nairs
    • Wavedash back to grab rapes! Even if they di the upthrow you can get a lot with upairs to regrab or pound to jab reset, platform rest opportunity, etc.
    • Upair to upair to upair to upair to upair to upair to upair to upair to upair to upair to upair to finish
    • Fox players usually fall apart in real life after low percent rest kills or gimps, as well as good wall of pains
    Negatives In the Matchup

    • If they are smart you are almost always in kill percent
    • Lasers mean you always have to approach if they want
    • Upthrow upair!!!!!
    • Random upsmashes trading with your aerials or after they bait you
    • You can actually get shine spiked if you are too impatient with your recovery
    • Fox is just too fast and has so many great options, you usually just have to be smarter to win


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    Eh Falco
    Mahone Percentage: 50-50
    Actual Percentage: 50-50

    Playing falco can be frustrating because lasers are annoying and the sheild pressure is really good, but if you play the matchup right you can deal with both of those problems.

    You have to stay in the air a lot. If you stay on the ground you will be forced to shield because of lasers and if you are forced to shield you will get shield pressured and grabbed a lot, so don't do that. If you do get grabbed: if the falco upthrows make sure that you di full behind sdi the lasers behind if you get hit with them, otherwise you are going to get hit with dairs and upairs. For dair you can tech and falco will have to guess your techs and techchase or you can just di the lasers and not have to tech at all, which one you pick is situational and depends on your opponent’s habits. You should assume the falco will upthrow when he grabs you and di accordingly, and then reactively adjust your di and decide whether to tech if they downthrow (you should have enough time during the dthrow animation but its hard so you should practice it).

    If you stay in the air, falco can't do much, just float over the lasers towards falco and then mixup how you come down... falling nair is ****, make sure to hit his head with it and then start weaving out so that it is safe. You also need to mix in just landing outside of his grab/shine range and going for grabs. Bairs are really good when you are horizontal and close to falco because it will lead to more bairs and then you have to techchase, and if you guess right, falco will usually be off the ledge and you can go for easy edgeguards. One tip is that if you catch them off guard they will likely miss the tech so space the bair to hit missed tech and then land and immediately start jumping to continue the bair chain. Fairs are good for when you are kinda close and are just spacing him out, just weave out all this ****!! I can't stress that enough!!! When you are getting shield pressured pay attention to what type of pressure falco is exerting (late aerial to shine to grab vs. early aerial to shine vs....) because that will determine how to beat the pressure. You can wd oos away after the shine and fsmash them if they try to do repetitive aerial shield pressure, or roll oos after the shine usually if they are just going to do a retreating aerial or shinegrab or most other stuff, but rolling isn’t the best with jiggs and the falco can read it and start dairing your roll, which can lead to a lot. If they are going to retreating aerial afterwards, then holding shield would be better than rolling and losing stage, but you really just have to decide what to do based on what you think they are going to do. There are a lot of different shield pressures and they all have different correct responses so I won’t get into all that in this basic guide (especially since I’m not good at this aspect of the matchup). But as you can see, you’re better off just not being in shield, so try to focus a lot on not lingering in shield and staying in the air.

    Also, wavedash back is really good in this matchup because it will force the falcos to overshoot their aerials otherwise they will get grabbed.

    One really difficult thing that’s good is taking the laser to fair to grab. It is hard to time, but if you get good at doing aerials after taking a laser, the matchup will be a little easier. After the fair you will get the grab usually because they will be so surprised and it is very quick. Learning how to take lasers effectively in general is great and unexplored territory for the most part… something like sding a laser away and then wavelanding could be really powerful, so remember to try moving after the lasers hitlag is over (it’s a lot less than you might think) and experiment with different options (sometimes airdodge might be good for example if you don’t think you have time to move out of falco’s way).

    One random thing to note is that you can duck under the lasers (unless they shoot really low ones) which comes in handy when you are trying to move around on the ground... just wavedash while crouching or what I usually do is duck under one laser and then jump over the next one and get up in the air again.

    EPIC MANGO QUOTE --> "Falco Can be hard but eh its kinda easy but hard at the same time."

    Levels To Counterpick:
    Fountain of Dreams - I actually like this stage more than dreamland in this matchup. Falco can't camp you out with lasers and there just isn't a lot of room for him to move around like he wants. Also the high ceiling can be nice and you can get a lot of edgeguards.
    Mangoland - This stage can still be good, but you are probably going to get camped. I would say you should pick this against aggresive falcos, but against campy falcos its still not bad.... probably like 55-45 in jiggs favor, but i think Fod is slightly better.

    Levels To Ban:
    Yoshi's Story - He gets kills off the top sometimes and he can get good combos with the platform, but laser camping isn't as strong and you can get gimps off bthrow. I would ban this against aggresive falcos.
    Pokemon Stadium - This stage is perfect for falco to camp and occasionally be aggresive. I would ban this against campy falcos.

    GOOD MATCH TO WATCH: Hbox vs. PP (notice everything, upair against platform camp, resting the sideb, dealing with lasers, etc.)

    Postives In the Matchup
    • Upthrow rest, upair to rest, pound to MangoCombo sometimes, rest the phantasm
    • Gimps are sooo easy (unless the falco is really good at mixing it up), and if he up-bs hes done
    • Wavedash back grabs ****, wd oos to fsmash or bair can get out of their pressure and put you on the offensive
    • If you stay in the air and play smart, his lasers aren't a big problem
    Negatives In the Matchup
    • Lasers are sometimes hard to get around if you get pinned down
    • Falco can counter bair spam with his bair spam along with lasers to turn you around
    • Some stages allow for shine off the top
    • Overall... its FALCO, great shield pressure, great dair, great uptilt, just a good moveset thats hard to deal with
    • Dair to dair to dair... your techroll sucks and falco can techchase really well sometimes

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    BiAtch Peach
    Mahone Percentage: 45-55 Peach
    Actual Percentage: 55-45 Puff

    *This matchup guide is written by Idea

    You’re both good at being floaties but jiggs is better at it.

    Bair should be your default move in this matchup. Rely on it more than any other moves. It outranges most of peach’s moves, and she can’t move very quickly in the air or on the ground, so unless she is explicitly running away from you, it’s hard for her to dodge it. She’ll probably have to shield.

    Peach has medium range and high move priority. You have high range and slightly lower move priority. Therefore, bair.

    (to clarify, without bair, jiggs would only have low-medium range)

    One of my favourite tricks works very well on peach: dthrow her onto a platform and techchase rest. It’s pretty easy to grab peach since she shields all the time against jiggs (to block all those bairs and fairs). And she’s in the right weight class for it to work at maybe 0-40%. The reason it’s not higher is that she can usually double jump past that point (being a floaty). It’ll work at higher percents on dreamland (but possibly not at 0...i can’t remember). Anyway, a lot of peach players will tech even when they don’t strictly have to, so expect it. Also they’re all going to DI away and tech in place, trust me =3

    There are kind of two conflicting forces in this matchup.
    1. Peach can’t reliably punish rest
    2. It’s hard to hit peach with moves that combo into rest

    You have to balance the desire to try for uptilts and falling upairs with the safety of your bair and fair. Play it by ear. It’s tricky, cause it’s REALLY good to rest peach, since she has so much trouble coming back from the stock deficit, but the setups aren’t likely to work since she’ll probably be spamming crouch cancel (she’s peach). And getting your uptilt CCed into her dsmash is not fun.

    The most reliable ways to rest her are that dthrow thing, and getting behind her shield and uptilting. (why do jiggs’s tricks work on like every character?) she can’t do anything about it except get out of the way. To be evil, jump behind her and wait half a second before uptilting. Hopefully she’ll get scared and try to jump OOS, only to get caught in the delayed uptilt. Uptilt combos into rest extra-easily on peach because her double jump goes nowhere.

    Bair/occasionally fair to rest in the air can work if she DIs badly. See Mango vs. Armada...one of the matches on FD =P I remember hearing that Mango asked Fuzzyness for peach advice and he said to do this. Makes sense. Resting on peach is not very risky.

    Oh, and you can rest her dash attack OOS. Just jump straight up. If you CC it, which you shouldn’t be doing against peach, that works too.

    Fair is also pretty good in this matchup. I find its main use is to hit her out of her float. If she is floating facing you (which she probably will be if she is floating at all) then she is going to fair. Fair will pretty much beat all your moves. You have to either not be in its way or stop it before it starts. The latter is a pretty good option, you just have to be a bit aggressive. Jump after her with fair. You don’t even have to time it cause weak fair combos into strong fair. Just try to hit her with fair, at all, before her own fair comes out. Once you hit with one, you can often fair and/or bair until she’s offstage.

    Fair is inferior to bair for shield pressuring peach since there’s a greater chance she’ll be able to nair OOS after you hit her shield. But y’know, it can be situationally good too. Sometimes doing this will still end up catching her out of her float.

    Turnips aren’t really that scary. Just don’t get caught in their slow, predictable arc. You should probably either run/float far enough back that it won’t hit, or nair through it. The first option isn’t all that bad because by the time she pulls another one you’ve probably gotten a lot closer to her anyway. Just be patient, they can get in the way but they don’t actually do very much. (oh, but if you do get hit, DI away just in case she’s trying to fair you afterward)

    Edgeguarding!

    If she goes high: float after her, she can’t do very much to you.

    If she’s trying to float back from the side, it’s just about timing your bair or fair. Just be careful cause she might try to fastfall, which isn’t all that ‘fast’ anyway. if she is falling back over but not parasoling—meaning falling normally—then she is probably going to try to do a move early to block your aerials. So wait for that, then hit her afterward.

    If she’s trying to float over then fall down onto the stage from above, you should upair. BUT, beware of her dair—it can cut through your upair, and then combo into nair, if you’re not careful. (or maybe it’s not a true combo...? but it doesn’t matter, watch out for it anyway.) you should try to bait the dair then upair after it finishes. Or, you could try hitting her offstage again with bair.

    If she goes low: parasol outprioritizes everything, so don’t be anywhere near its range. You can try to fair or bair her against the stage and hope she doesn’t tech. A better option, though hard to time, is to grab the edge and nair with invincibility. Hopefully it’ll stage spike her. If not...some bull**** will happen, she’s not getting back after that anyway. lol

    Edgeguarding peach is all about timing. Wait for her to make herself vulnerable. She always does, it just takes a while.

    EPIC MANGO QUOTE --> "All her are dumb"

    Levels To Counterpick:
    It's really just personal preference. I prefer small stages because i have a hard time killing her so I pick Yoshi's Story, but you might like living forever and if you are good at getting rests then Mangoland is probably the best choice.

    Levels To Ban:
    This one is really weird, it all depends on what type of peach you are playing

    Final Destination - I like platforms in this matchup, i feel like they help me get around turnips and get some rest opportunities and good upairs, so I usually ban this, but i would say that it is just personal preference and if you don't mind the turnips and think you can just outspace her, this stage should be fine.
    You might even want to ban Yoshi's Story, just ban whatever you think is best, honestly no stage is that bad for this matchup.

    GOOD MATCH TO WATCH: Mango vs. Armada (notice the edgeguarding)

    Postives In the Matchup
    • Bair most of the time
    • Fair her quickly when she’s floating
    • Wavedash back after hitting her shield
    • Float behind her shield and uptilt, rarely
    • Grab her
    • Be really patient...but not necessarily campy (she wants you to give her that space to move around)
    Negatives In the Matchup
    • Shield. Peach has good shield pressure with all her float-cancelling stuff. She also likes to grab you and combo dthrow into nair. Float around and use aerials instead.
    • Crouch cancel. It doesn’t really work on her. And sooner or later you’re gonna CC a dsmash and take like 50%.
    • Miss L-cancels. She’s fast enough on the ground that she can punish you for stuff like that. As jigglypuff matchups go, peach can be a surprisingly technical one.
    • Nair. It’s not really that useful. You need the range on peach, her moves will just outprioritize or trade with nair, which is always worse for you


    [collapse]
    [/collapse]


    Smexy Falcon

    *This matchup guide is written by Tekk

    Tekk percentage: 99-1 Puff wins
    Actual percentage: 60-40 Puff wins

    Bad falcons will make this matchup seem like a free win for Puff, but actually it's kinda tricky. Falcon is probably the character that punishes puff the hardest (with fox), but luckily he also suffers really disadvantaging flaws.

    Your neutral position in this matchup should be crouching/WDing, because jumping around is pretty bad against falcon, since all he is looking for is an opportunity to land a grab or a mid% upair on you.
    Remember this: once falcon catches you, he WON'T let you go. If you start to get combo'd, be sure do DI/SDI away as hard as you can, and to airdodge whenever he misses a timing. A good way not to get punished on your shffls is to wavedash away whenever you touch the ground.
    A routine that works well for me is: SH nair=>fade back=>WD away. This way, if falcon tries to stomp you out of shield, you'll get a free grab.

    About falcon's oos options: good falcons will often bait you with their shield and stomp you on your grab (especially if you're in their back). SH Uair beats that.

    Falcon is easy to grab if you condition him to. spamming shffl naifs and bairs is a good way to do that. Then, when you get a grab, upthrow is the best option at low and mid%, and it leads to an easy upair rest if falcon doesn't DI (and a very few actually do). At high%, Fthrow is okay and Dthrow can work, on the ledge (if they DI inward you get a free fair/bair).
    Falcon's most exploitableweakness in this matchup is his fastfalness+his weight… The guy's a real sandbag, and he's dead whenever you land an upair on him at mid%, since it leads to puff's every other move.

    Some possible oos rests: on falcon's sideB, fsmash, downB
    possible crouch rests: on falcon's jab, low% knee, upsmash…
    Resting falcon after he Dthrows you is a matter of reaction; with practice you'll see when his knee isn't safe. Tip: if he tries to knee you with his thigh hitbox, you can rest him. If he tries to stomp you, rest.

    Crouch is realllyyyyyy good in this matchup as well: always crouch when you land in front of him: bad falcons will try to grab you which is a free rest/grab, other falcons will try to stomp you oos (and good ones will mix it up, lol).
    Nair is my favorite move in this matchup: almost always leads to a grab when it connects at low%, good grab bait and pressure tool: a lot of falcons will roll when you try to pressure them, and with puff's great air mobility, you can hit them with a weak air, fade back and punish the roll.

    A trick of mine that works well on falcon (as well on fox/falco): on a platform stage, when you get to uthrow him onto a plaform, follow him, waveland then react to his techroll (which is very slow) with another grab/fsmash to send him offstage.
    About edgeguarding falcon: Be patient. Don't chase him offstage. Wait for him to try to recover, then punish with a bair that'll send him a bit further. If he tries to recover from below the edge, Dsmash is a really good option, since this move is so hard to tech. If the falcon often goes for a sweetspotted upB below the edge, go for that good ol' edgehog, and if you misread his upB and he does make it to the ledge, that edgehop dair => grab hbox does will give you another chance. I usually just grab the edge whenever I send him offstage and react to his recovery.


    Levels To Counterpick:
    Fountain of Dreams - falcon hates this stage, and puff loves it. But it'll get banned anyway
    Dreamland - you can tank pretty well here, and falcon doesn't benefit from this as much as you do i.e. the stage being wide doesn't prevent him from getting edgeguarded.

    Levels To Ban:
    Pokemon Stadium: biggest stage, plenty of room for falcon to run…
    Final Destination: Same as PS, except the stage doesn't transform.
    Yoshi's Story (?): Kind of a wild card; falcon doesn't have a lot of space, but a knee will kill you at 55%

    Other stages are pretty neutral to me.

    Postives In the Matchup
    -falcon is the easiest character to combo, especially from a mid% upair
    -he can't do much when you pressure him
    -grabs often put him in a really bad situation
    -bad recovery vs best edgeguarder in the game
    -pretty easy to rest if you have good reaction
    -he's scared of your crouch

    Negatives In the Matchup
    -It's really hard to escape once he lands his hands or feet on you
    -fullhopping is bad vs him, will get you upair'd a lot
    -you die at 90% max on big stages, watch for that spaced knee when you're at high%
    -falcon is kind of hard to catch when he's on his dashdance routine


    [collapse]
    Jigglypuff
    [collapse]1) Magus on what to do against a ledge camping Puff 6/17/10
    2) S2J on the optimal way to play Puff 7/22/10
    3) Grinin on cutting Puff down to size 1/19/11
    4) Etwist on what move is the best against Puff 4/22/11
    5) Thumbs on Puff 4/22/11
    6) JPOBS on the dangers of grab 4/22/11
    7) Nando on Hax advice 4/22/11
    8) BigD on what's safe and what's not 11/23/08
    9) Scar on Jiggs 11/23/08
    10) Scar on pressure 1/6/09
    11) G-Reg on the importance of patience 7/5/09
    12) Hax on Jiggs 7/14/09
    13) PureKorea on jiggs 8/27/07
    14) Mogwai on jiggs 7/14/09
    [/collapse][/collapse]


    Hey-oh Yoshi

    Ferrish Percentage: 50-50
    Actual Percentage: 60-40 Puff

    Yoshi can be a nightmare if you aren't familiar with his deep bag of tricks. His eggs can give you a real headache. He has lots of ways to trade with you, is tough or impossible to edgeguard/combo before about 80%, and his air speed is almost as good as yours (better with smart wavelands on plats). He can combo you better than most char's thanks to his glitchy auto-cancel insta-land on plats during his dj, even when ascending. He can dj armor Rest and punish you with fair which combos into fair or uair, both of which suck to get hit by. His moves in general are very powerful. His shield pressure should not be underestimated. The good news is Puff has the tools to deal with all that.

    Yoshi's strengths in this MU are all in his defensive zoning and ability to trade favorably. His approaches are situational at best and gimmicky at worst. Due to the nature of his dj, he can either go low or cover horizontal distance but generally not both at the same time. What this means for you is that if you are grounded or very low, Yoshi can't approach you willy-nilly unless he has low% and center stage, if he has plat wavelanding shenanigans, or if you have high% and he nails you with an egg. Even then, you can generally counter with basic stuff like wavedash back, uairs, retreating bairs. This means you can easily be at a range where you are threatening bair but still be pretty safe from him, except maybe eggs. Watch for his backwards sh bair which covers a ton of space and trades way more often than it should (or maybe I just suck), and also watch out for plat malarkey that can get him to center stage where he really wants to be.

    If you get stuck in your shield, keep in mind that he has decent shield pressure. His jabs and tilts are pretty good, and his dj-canceled nairs are fast and can stay out of grab range. He can easily adjust to cover the distance of your wavedash oos unless you are really perfect with that timing, but there's no reason to when rolling away from him does a much better job. Again, his dj's nature means he has a tough time following a simple roll--maybe dash attack, but that's not exactly a top-tier shield pressure move.

    All in all, his inability to approach you and the relative ease with which Puff can escape make it very difficult for Yoshi to challenge your hit-and-run game. That being said, don't try to beat Yoshi with just bairs. There's a reason he's still around when all the other dinosaurs are dead, and that's because he powershielded the asteroid like a boss has a million ways to trade with you. His fsmash/usmash/dash attack give him invinc head. His powershield and CC give him opportunities to close the gap, if not counter you outright. He can tank through your aerials with his dj until about 80%, and because the "hinge" of his turnaround dj is about the base of his tail, if you aerial him from behind his dj will get him way closer to you than it appears. His afore-mentioned bair trades too often. He doesn't suffer shieldstun, so if you aerial his shield on a plat he can shield-drop and throw out an aerial or an egg. Plus, when you break his dj you have to hit him again to actually send him flying, so you might end up bairing him up until 120% on every stock. That's a lot of opportunities for him to trade with you, and you can bet that good Yoshi's are going to make good use of them.

    You can totally go for tomahawk/ac grabs, or try to bait him into a position where you can get a grab. I generally find that fthrow is best just because of damage, but other throws have uses too. Utilt or low uairs at low% scare the crap out of him even if it doesn't chain into Rest. Fsmashes can also freak him out. Getting a stock lead off of a Rest can give you control of the entire match and force him to rely on his bad approaches. Keep in mind that you do have to work your top-tier tomfoolery into a hit-and-run strategy. You can't get in, start trading blows, and still expect to win. You also can't go for Rest willy-nilly, because eating a Yoshi fair is unappetizing and leads to an uair or just another fair and techchase.

    Moral of the Story: You win this MU if you can play smart, not get lost in his trick-or-treat bag, and keep him guessing if you're going to wall him out with bairs or go in for top-tier malarkey.

    Levels To Counterpick:
    Final Destination - Without plats to waveland on or hide under, Yoshi can't keep up with you in the air or throw eggs very safely.
    Fountain of Dreams - The high ceiling really helps you out. Plus, half of the stage becomes FD once that plat sinks into the ground.
    Yoshi's Story - Kind of double-edged, but if you want to go for janky Rest combos, you want to make sure they KO.

    Levels To Ban:
    Pokemon Stadium - The low ceiling makes approaches harder and side plats make egg camping easier.
    Battlefield - No real reason, it just seems like that is the favorite stage of many Yoshi's and the one they practice on the most.

    Positives in the MU
    Yoshi doesn't have a reliable response to Puff's hit-and-run game
    Puff can easily edgeguard Yoshi if he loses his dj
    Yoshi fears Rest combos even if they don't actually lead to Rest
    Puff can roll out of Yoshi's shield pressure

    Negatives in the MU
    Egg camping
    Yoshi has many tricks to take center stage and can keep you out once he gets there
    Yoshi has many tricks to give him trading opportunities and his moves are quite powerful
    Yoshi can dj armor the Rest
     
    #1 Mahone, Mar 3, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2014
  2. idea

    idea
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    Smash Master

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    cool =)

    alright, i'm gonna be honest...this is a lot of text and i don't intend to read most of it. instead i'm going to gradually write up my own stuff for the same matchups, and if there happens to be overlap, that's just a good sign.

    the operative word is "gradually." i probably won't get much done before march 19th because i have three essays due between now and then.
     
  3. Tamoo

    Tamoo
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    Smash Master

    Joined:
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    4,499
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    England, Orpington, S.London
    Meh I was wondering why Yoshi's is a ban stage vs fox but kinda forgot that you guys have crappy NTSC :)

    EVERY single fox bans Yoshi's against me now in the UK, it's just tooooo good in Pal you guys have no idea.

    FOD is so legit in that matchup though, hate the stage but found it gaves watered down advantages Yoshi's gives but with bigger blastzones. Battlefield I kinda hate though, ppl just circle camping all day, I can kinda beat it but it's boring as ****.


    Really appreciate an updated guide btw, just started getting a bit more interested in jiggs and the only thing holding me back atm is the falco matchup but hoping these tips can help me out a little.
     
  4. idea

    idea
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    Smash Master

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    that's a personal difference too, i like yoshi's against fox. but i usually reason that battlefield or FoD are better choices. the only thing i don't like about yoshi's is that fox's rest punish almost always kills me.

    falco isn't my strong suit but i'll do him first anyway just for you =D

    (it boils down to, float above lasers and kill him off a single hit, lol)
     
  5. Ocean

    Ocean
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    Smash Debater

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    ugly and unorganized.

    but the context is good from what I can tell.

    EDIT:: if you don't mind, may I go through it and organize it? I'll keep the context the same, just tighten it up and organize it.
     
  6. Mahone

    Mahone
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    Smash Champion

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    2,938
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    Blacksburg, VA
    lol what, if you are serious then sure i guess, but how is it unorganized?
     
  7. Ocean

    Ocean
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    Smash Debater

    Joined:
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    okay, it's not exactly unorganized, but the clashing colors are driving my brain insane.
     
  8. Dark Hart

    Dark Hart
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    Rejected by Azua

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    I don't approve of your avatar, Mr. Crack Rock

    Puff players can't be super sayains

    especially the best one

    kid gohan

    no no no

    let my people go
     
  9. Mahone

    Mahone
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    Smash Champion

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    People who can't beat me in falco dittos cannot talk about my main in a disrespectful manner lololololol

    Also... if you use the crown its like she has super sayain hair lol get *****
     
  10. Mahone

    Mahone
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    Smash Champion

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    Just quote it, change the stuff and pm me.
     
  11. Beanman

    Beanman
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    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
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    73
    I actually like the variety of colors; It helps it look less like HUGEWALLOFTEXTNOONEWILLREAD. Navigating it is much easier with the colors.
     
  12. Mahone

    Mahone
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    Smash Champion

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    Thank you i appreciate that
     
  13. Ocean

    Ocean
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    Smash Debater

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    I agree colors, can be used to enhance text, and make it more interesting to read.
    but when you go from yellow to white, and switch yellow from being title to context, and use pink on a gray background...

    eh no.
     
  14. Mahone

    Mahone
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    Smash Champion

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    Can you explain why PAL would be different?

    FOD is so good, i agree, and honestly pretty much everyone who plays this game hates it, so we're lucky that its actually good for puff.

    My falco guide is probably the worst of my matchups since its my worst matchup irl, but i asked hbox to take a look at it and give his thoughts so hopefully he'll do that.
     
  15. Republican0fHeaven

    Republican0fHeaven
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    Smash Ace

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    STICKY this sh**!!!

    Well done. You gonna do peach/falcon?
     
  16. Tamoo

    Tamoo
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    Smash Master

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    We just don't have to worry any where near as much as you guys do about that upsmash.

    It's crazy weak in this game in comparison to yours, we can survive quite a lot of rest punishes even if they DI off the side.
     
  17. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
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    Smash Legend

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    Jigglypuff's Fair hitbox does not overextend horizontally until far into its duration. And even then it's not much.

    It's easier to beat Firefoxes by positioning yourself so they hit the lowest side of her feet or body. The intersection between her feet and body is also a good place. This is pretty easy to do with double jumps, which is kind of cool.
     
  18. idea

    idea
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    Smash Master

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    ^ yeah. in other words, kick fox in the face.

    if there's no falcon or peach i'll do those soon. and...i think someone asked me to talk about falco like a week ago. so i'll do those soon. except more soon than the last time i said 'soon' cause now i kind of feel like it.

    [1 hour later] omg, i wrote up peach just now and it's TWO PAGES in ms word. and like 95% of it is stuff i learned from those few weeks when KK wanted to try out peach :laugh:
     
  19. idea

    idea
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

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    it's a bit disorganized, but so was mango's stuff and i liked it that way. anyway, i can organize it more later if need be.



    Jigglypuff vs. Peach

    You’re both good at being floaties but jiggs is better at it.

    Bair should be your default move in this matchup. Rely on it more than any other moves. It outranges most of peach’s moves, and she can’t move very quickly in the air or on the ground, so unless she is explicitly running away from you, it’s hard for her to dodge it. She’ll probably have to shield.

    Peach has medium range and high move priority. You have high range and slightly lower move priority. Therefore, bair.

    (to clarify, without bair, jiggs would only have low-medium range)

    One of my favourite tricks works very well on peach: dthrow her onto a platform and techchase rest. It’s pretty easy to grab peach since she shields all the time against jiggs (to block all those bairs and fairs). And she’s in the right weight class for it to work at maybe 0-40%. The reason it’s not higher is that she can usually double jump past that point (being a floaty). It’ll work at higher percents on dreamland (but possibly not at 0...i can’t remember). Anyway, a lot of peach players will tech even when they don’t strictly have to, so expect it. Also they’re all going to DI away and tech in place, trust me =3

    There are kind of two conflicting forces in this matchup.
    1. Peach can’t reliably punish rest
    2. It’s hard to hit peach with moves that combo into rest

    You have to balance the desire to try for uptilts and falling upairs with the safety of your bair and fair. Play it by ear. It’s tricky, cause it’s REALLY good to rest peach, since she has so much trouble coming back from the stock deficit, but the setups aren’t likely to work since she’ll probably be spamming crouch cancel (she’s peach). And getting your uptilt CCed into her dsmash is not fun.

    The most reliable ways to rest her are that dthrow thing, and getting behind her shield and uptilting. (why do jiggs’s tricks work on like every character?) she can’t do anything about it except get out of the way. To be evil, jump behind her and wait half a second before uptilting. Hopefully she’ll get scared and try to jump OOS, only to get caught in the delayed uptilt. Uptilt combos into rest extra-easily on peach because her double jump goes nowhere.

    Bair/occasionally fair to rest in the air can work if she DIs badly. See Mango vs. Armada...one of the matches on FD =P I remember hearing that Mango asked Fuzzyness for peach advice and he said to do this. Makes sense. Resting on peach is not very risky.

    Oh, and you can rest her dash attack OOS. Just jump straight up. If you CC it, which you shouldn’t be doing against peach, that works too.

    Fair is also pretty good in this matchup. I find its main use is to hit her out of her float. If she is floating facing you (which she probably will be if she is floating at all) then she is going to fair. Fair will pretty much beat all your moves. You have to either not be in its way or stop it before it starts. The latter is a pretty good option, you just have to be a bit aggressive. Jump after her with fair. You don’t even have to time it cause weak fair combos into strong fair. Just try to hit her with fair, at all, before her own fair comes out. Once you hit with one, you can often fair and/or bair until she’s offstage.

    Fair is inferior to bair for shield pressuring peach since there’s a greater chance she’ll be able to nair OOS after you hit her shield. But y’know, it can be situationally good too. Sometimes doing this will still end up catching her out of her float.

    Turnips aren’t really that scary. Just don’t get caught in their slow, predictable arc. You should probably either run/float far enough back that it won’t hit, or nair through it. The first option isn’t all that bad because by the time she pulls another one you’ve probably gotten a lot closer to her anyway. Just be patient, they can get in the way but they don’t actually do very much. (oh, but if you do get hit, DI away just in case she’s trying to fair you afterward)

    Edgeguarding!

    If she goes high: float after her, she can’t do very much to you.

    If she’s trying to float back from the side, it’s just about timing your bair or fair. Just be careful cause she might try to fastfall, which isn’t all that ‘fast’ anyway. if she is falling back over but not parasoling—meaning falling normally—then she is probably going to try to do a move early to block your aerials. So wait for that, then hit her afterward.

    If she’s trying to float over then fall down onto the stage from above, you should upair. BUT, beware of her dair—it can cut through dair, and then combo into nair, if you’re not careful. (or maybe it’s not a true combo...? but it doesn’t matter, watch out for it anyway.) you should try to bait the dair then upair after it finishes. Or, you could try hitting her offstage again with bair.

    If she goes low: parasol outprioritizes everything, so don’t be anywhere near its range. You can try to fair or bair her against the stage and hope she doesn’t tech. A better option, though hard to time, is to grab the edge and nair with invincibility. Hopefully it’ll stage spike her. If not...some bull**** will happen, she’s not getting back after that anyway. lol

    Edgeguarding peach is all about timing. Wait for her to make herself vulnerable. She always does, it just takes a while.

    ---------------------------------

    What you should do:
    - Bair most of the time
    - Fair her quickly when she’s floating
    - Wavedash back after hitting her shield
    - Float behind her shield and uptilt, rarely
    - Grab her
    - Be really patient...but not necessarily campy (she wants you to give her that space to move around)

    What you shouldn’t do:
    - Shield. Peach has good shield pressure with all her float-cancelling stuff. She also likes to grab you and combo dthrow into nair. Float around and use aerials instead.
    - Crouch cancel. It doesn’t really work on her. And sooner or later you’re gonna CC a dsmash and take like 50%.
    - Miss L-cancels. She’s fast enough on the ground that she can punish you for stuff like that. As jigglypuff matchups go, peach can be a surprisingly technical one.
    - Nair. It’s not really that useful. You need the range on peach, her moves will just outprioritize or trade with nair, which is always worse for you.

    Please excuse the strange capitalization, i typed this up in ms word and it only auto-corrected it sometimes.
     
  20. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
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    fix 'd
     
  21. Mahone

    Mahone
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    Thanks guys, I'll add your stuff to the OP soon idea
     
  22. Massive

    Massive
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    Other jiggs dudes, what do you do against someone who is really good at laser camping/running away?
    I got demoralized in this fashion at SMYM and it took a nap and 2 hours to get my mojo back.
     
  23. Mahone

    Mahone
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    lol, i assume you mean fox? If so, i wrote some stuff up in the guide, but its hard man, it is definitely the hardest thing for puff to deal with, so don't feel bad, just play someone and tell them to camp you and just practice even though it sucks.
     
  24. FoxLisk

    FoxLisk
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    yo Idea, I don't play puff or peach but I've watched mango vs armada like four hundred times, and one thing I noticed that mango was really persistent about was always chasing him and never letting him grab turnips. I think you're more or less right that turnips aren't particularly scary, but peach having one allows her to dictate the pace somewhat. basically, armada would try to run away from mango and grab a turnip and he just never allowed it.

    i figure since he's mango he was probably doing the right thing, so you might wanna add that to your guide.
     
  25. idea

    idea
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    "campy gay fox" as KK calls him :awesome: is jiggs' worst matchup. and by a pretty large margin, imo. i mean, telling you what i know about how to beat campy gay fox involves telling you basically everything i know about jigglypuff =P but i'm still gonna get around to fox eventually.

    yeah, you're right. basically you want to keep pressuring peach without getting TOO close to her. turnips aren't scary, but the fact that i had to say that means that they do help her somehow. and that somehow is that they let her direct your movement a little by throwing turnips in your way.

    i'll add that in...if i remember =P

    also, armada is especially good with turnips, and mango gets bored if he's not being aggressive, so all of that makes sense.
     
  26. Mahone

    Mahone
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    yo idea what color do you want? I gave you LIME
     
  27. Massive

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    Fox is the worst offender, for sure. It actually happened with falco this time though, which was the weirdest way I've ever seen him played.

    It felt like the entire match was lasers, jumping from platform to platform, and then getting a random bair off to kill me. I wanted to pull my hair out.
     
  28. idea

    idea
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    lol, i'm seriously gonna look through all the colours available later and pick one.

    campy falco is a bit easier. he can't run as fast or jump as far. it's more about avoiding the lasers than anything else.

    if he's on a platform, upair from below (not too predictably, he'll just jump and dair), or get above him and nair onto his head. actually nair onto falco's head is a good thing to do anyway.

    if, say, it's on FD, you can either WD around beneath the lasers, or (as i prefer) float in the middle range where his fullhopped or short hopped lasers won't hit you.


    basically if i were you i would put all my effort into not getting hit by lasers and getting ABOVE falco.
     
  29. reactor

    reactor
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    puf doesn't have any problem with the animals, becoz it can rest them.
     
  30. Tamoo

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    oooh rest them, gotta try that out next time X.X
     
  31. Massive

    Massive
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    FD was our second match, it was a lot easier to approach but I think I just got outplayed. CunningKitsune is a hell of a player.
     
  32. FoxLisk

    FoxLisk
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    OH HELL YEAH

    this ***** knows whats up i mean check out that join date!!!!!!!!!!
     
  33. Mahone

    Mahone
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    H/O guys i gotta update the OP becuase i just found out YOU CAN REST FOX/FALCO after upthrow.... it needs futher experimenting, but its something lol
     
  34. Ocean

    Ocean
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    EGAD!
     
  35. _Xanatos_

    _Xanatos_
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    Nice guide! The colors are just fine by the way.

    Speaking of organization, I honestly thought that, despite the messiness,
    Mango's guide was pretty organized and easy to read/understand.

    What I like about yours is that it elaborates and explains things in detail.

    Good job.
     
  36. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
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    It's "Evil Gay Fox" Kyle can't you click my sig oh my gaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwd.

    I think Puff just turns her back to Fox in Puff Fox and like zones with the threat of her gigantic hitbox and wafts from him in Bair spacing, since it's one of her only safe moves vs something that fast with that much U-smash power. At least in defensive play. Puff has a lot of answers to Fox approaches if she just moves back from an adequate distance and outprioritizes his move.

    More generic defenses that don't abuse aerial mobility include the classic WD back, ducking under stuff, and u-tilt. U-tilt is really good.

    For aggressive play I really have no idea lol.
     
  37. idea

    idea
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    honestly i don't know why the fox mains ever approach puff

    like what are they thinking =/

    aggressive play vs. fox is pretty...fun. it kind of only works when you're not in kill percent. cause one of the main things (imo) is actually spacing fair, and you can't do that when upsmash will kill you, cause it might trade. MIGHT. jiggs's fair can still interrupt even that move if you get it out early enough.

    her fair is underrated just cause of how good her bair is, but if she couldn't spend most of her time being defensive puff still wouldn't be that bad of a character. she'd just be like, only high tier, and fun to watch.

    :bee:
     
  38. Mahone

    Mahone
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    Thank you, i really do appreciate it!

    The problem is that fox moves so god damn fast and it is VERY VERY hard to maintain that spacing at all times, especially when, if you are too far he can laser :(
     
  39. Ocean

    Ocean
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    oh my I was so confused.
    I thought "how does kirbykaze know my name and why is he talking to me?"
    but then I remembered that idea's name is kyle too.

    and now I'm sad because you don't love me.
     
  40. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
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    Yeah that's why Puff loses

    Ocean, I clearly love you oh my gaaawwwwwd
     

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