hungrybox
Smash Legend
battlefield is the worst stage against sheik, campy or not
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Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff
- Thread starter Mahone
- Start date
Mahone
Smash Champion
Did you get my PM?
idea
Smash Master
why?
it seems neutral. even with the platform setup.
it seems neutral. even with the platform setup.
Summonedfist
Smash Lord
lmaoooo this
We know enough.
Mahone
Smash Champion
idea
Smash Master
haha, where's that from?
Mahone
Smash Champion
his backroom application
idea
Smash Master
honestly, i can play falco for hours and hours and not really lose any stamina...but jiggs, when i'm trying my absolute hardest, is just mentally exhausting.
of course, with other characters your hands get tired faster. with the exception of my left thumb, which gets tired fastest with jiggs.
of course, with other characters your hands get tired faster. with the exception of my left thumb, which gets tired fastest with jiggs.
Summonedfist
Smash Lord
if no one realised how hard puff is to play, then why aren't there more mango's and bhox's?
also, playing falco for hours and hours is tiring if you're really technical with him =p
also, playing falco for hours and hours is tiring if you're really technical with him =p
idea
Smash Master
meh, it depends. imo comboing someone takes less energy than trying to hit them from a neutral position. jigglypuff spends less time comboing than most characters since most of her kills are either gimps or one or two moves that combo into rest. falco on the other hand routinely gets into extended combos.
samus is probably mentally exhausting too.
btw i'm not trying to say something requires more skill than something else, or any such thing, i'm just saying it's really obvious to me that jiggs tires my brain out faster. that could have lots of implications, none of which i wanna deal with right now =P
samus is probably mentally exhausting too.
btw i'm not trying to say something requires more skill than something else, or any such thing, i'm just saying it's really obvious to me that jiggs tires my brain out faster. that could have lots of implications, none of which i wanna deal with right now =P
JMOAN
Smash Apprentice
Needs some Zelda match up info... :-P
Mahone
Smash Champion
ya could you help with that?
idea
Smash Master
alright here's what i learned about zelda from playing the_lake in teams pools at pound <_<
1. don't get kicked
2. don't go after her in the air, due to kicks
3. she's defenseless when she's not kicking you
also CC her fsmash and you can rest her out of it.
1. don't get kicked
2. don't go after her in the air, due to kicks
3. she's defenseless when she's not kicking you
also CC her fsmash and you can rest her out of it.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
i disagree though. like, i main falco and play jiggs in friendlies with some frequency. with falco i just expend a lot more mental energy because i'm focusing on getting my spacing right and working on whatever i'm trying to improve that day and making sure i dont get grabbed and trying to pick up on my opponent's habits and stuff... it's a lot more work because i take it more seriously. with jiggs im in the neutral position more, it's just not as tiring because i dont care as much, i guess. not that i dont try to win with her, it's just not important.
JMOAN
Smash Apprentice
You can chase Zelda in the air, as long as you stay underneath her. Zelda only has horizontal strength, but vertically downward, she can't do much. Jiggs's uair frightens Zelda. Also, it can be really hard for Zelda to get down off of platforms if Jiggs positions herself underneath well.
Be careful, don't get greedy. Let her bair/fair whiff, and then punish her with your own. Realize, that she's gonna try to do the same thing right back at you. If you miss a rest, it's not really that bad since her best punisher is still sweetspot bair (granted, the move is pretty powerful).
Don't forget that she can sweetspot the ledge from far above the stage.
If she tries up-b stalling on the edge, I think you can probably grab the ledge, and then watch her up-b straight up, and fall to her death. I haven't tested this.
Strictly speaking, Zelda CAN chase Jiggs in the air with her highly disjointed-hitbox uair. But, this rarely happens, because the uair has such a large startup and has so few active frames. Still, I have taken a few Jiggs players' stocks with a well-placed, unexpected uair high above the stage...
Counterpick1: Dreamland. Yeah, it's one of Zelda's best stages too, but Zelda finds it much harder to recover than Jiggs, and Jiggs can gimp her sometimes. Plus, Zelda can get semi-trapped on the platforms. On small stages, Zelda is too likely too kill Jiggs quickly with a handful of lucky bairs.
Counterpick2: Brinstar. When the lava is high, and Zelda is trying to recover, she must either hit the lava and bounce above Jiggs (which, again, she hates), or she must land on a platform. If she opts for a platform, wait on the platform, rest. Beware of frame perfect up-b ledge stalls underneath the lava... o.O
Ban: ?? FD maybe, since Zelda likes the lack of platforms. Yoshi's Story maybe, to avoid quick deaths from Zelda.
Finally, be ready for a long match...
Be careful, don't get greedy. Let her bair/fair whiff, and then punish her with your own. Realize, that she's gonna try to do the same thing right back at you. If you miss a rest, it's not really that bad since her best punisher is still sweetspot bair (granted, the move is pretty powerful).
Don't forget that she can sweetspot the ledge from far above the stage.
If she tries up-b stalling on the edge, I think you can probably grab the ledge, and then watch her up-b straight up, and fall to her death. I haven't tested this.
Strictly speaking, Zelda CAN chase Jiggs in the air with her highly disjointed-hitbox uair. But, this rarely happens, because the uair has such a large startup and has so few active frames. Still, I have taken a few Jiggs players' stocks with a well-placed, unexpected uair high above the stage...
Counterpick1: Dreamland. Yeah, it's one of Zelda's best stages too, but Zelda finds it much harder to recover than Jiggs, and Jiggs can gimp her sometimes. Plus, Zelda can get semi-trapped on the platforms. On small stages, Zelda is too likely too kill Jiggs quickly with a handful of lucky bairs.
Counterpick2: Brinstar. When the lava is high, and Zelda is trying to recover, she must either hit the lava and bounce above Jiggs (which, again, she hates), or she must land on a platform. If she opts for a platform, wait on the platform, rest. Beware of frame perfect up-b ledge stalls underneath the lava... o.O
Ban: ?? FD maybe, since Zelda likes the lack of platforms. Yoshi's Story maybe, to avoid quick deaths from Zelda.
Finally, be ready for a long match...
idea
Smash Master
yeah, that sounds more like it has to do with you not trying to win as hard. also friendlies aren't always the best for judging these things, unless people in your region camp jiggs as much in friendlies as they would in tourney. not everyone does.
meh, but it could just be me, sometimes i try to make jiggs do things she doesn't really have to to win.
edit: agreed.
Mahone
Smash Champion
thank you jmoan, that was very helpful
Mahone
Smash Champion
lol, naw its straight, there isn't much else to discuss
Massive
Smash Champion
I played Cosmo in bracket at SMYM. That match is basically hell.
Zelda almost always has the option of timing you out on nearly any stage. Talk about infuriating.
I think a lot of the strain of playing Jigglypuff is due to the high-risk, high-reward nature of rests.
You're basically gambling a stock for a stock every time you hit down-b.
That can take a serious toll on you if you're invested in the outcome of the match.
Also, she's really light. That makes you particularly on edge for that random smash/aerial poking through your shield or slipping by a bair/fair/nair that will kill you at ~70%.
Zelda almost always has the option of timing you out on nearly any stage. Talk about infuriating.
I think a lot of the strain of playing Jigglypuff is due to the high-risk, high-reward nature of rests.
You're basically gambling a stock for a stock every time you hit down-b.
That can take a serious toll on you if you're invested in the outcome of the match.
Also, she's really light. That makes you particularly on edge for that random smash/aerial poking through your shield or slipping by a bair/fair/nair that will kill you at ~70%.
LatexRhombus
Smash Journeyman
be warned. zelda can transform into sheik.
idea
Smash Master
oh god no, please don't change into something i can kill faster.
Summonedfist
Smash Lord
[insert debate about needle/bair campy sheik vs. puff game]
Massive
Smash Champion
Jigglypuff is a balloon-type Pokémon.
Needles are super effective.
Needles are super effective.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Minimize is hard for Sheik to deal with. Her moves have low accuracy as it is.
edit:
Mahone, you're still F-smashing too much vs Dop when he's grounded. F-smash is hard to land on Peach. Grabs, conversely, are easy. Grab him more. You're sometimes F-smashing when it won't even kill.
Spacing was better than last time, but you're still moving into him too much when he's close. Your priority should be to either do something that's fast when he's close or get sufficient space so your slower moves will work.
Don't go for combos until Peach is at like 40. And at 40 only go for combos with hard aerials. Soft ones wait to like 70 or a situation where they can't go for Nair (or other moves) to break the combo.
You have to avoid turnips better. You take too much damage from stray turnips. You can be a bit more aggressive when he's holding one. She can't D-smash or dash attack when she's got one, and her aerial moveset is "float stuff" and "turnip throw" so you can definitely take advantage of the limitations of her holding one more effectively. Unless it's a stitch, you can afford to be pretty fearless until it leaves her hand.
edit:
Mahone, you're still F-smashing too much vs Dop when he's grounded. F-smash is hard to land on Peach. Grabs, conversely, are easy. Grab him more. You're sometimes F-smashing when it won't even kill.
Spacing was better than last time, but you're still moving into him too much when he's close. Your priority should be to either do something that's fast when he's close or get sufficient space so your slower moves will work.
Don't go for combos until Peach is at like 40. And at 40 only go for combos with hard aerials. Soft ones wait to like 70 or a situation where they can't go for Nair (or other moves) to break the combo.
You have to avoid turnips better. You take too much damage from stray turnips. You can be a bit more aggressive when he's holding one. She can't D-smash or dash attack when she's got one, and her aerial moveset is "float stuff" and "turnip throw" so you can definitely take advantage of the limitations of her holding one more effectively. Unless it's a stitch, you can afford to be pretty fearless until it leaves her hand.
Mahone
Smash Champion
Ya thanks alot, i felt bad cuz i didn't really follow any of your advice from last time until game 3. I told my friend after that i knew i was being ******** with fsmashes, but i was just too scared of his spacing... i felt that the longer it went on, the more of an advantage he had, so i just tried to get lucky with fsmashes, but it didn't work at all.
I'm gonna work really hard at analyzing these videos and i promise next time i'll beat him. Thank you for all your advice, I'm starting to get better at thinking about the game, as i noticed almost everything you said after i played him.... problem is i need to think of it while im playing
idea
Smash Master
i left some comments on the videos.
it's the opposite really, the longer it goes on the more jiggs has the advantage cause she can rest at any point. peach is more afraid of you than you are of her.
it's the opposite really, the longer it goes on the more jiggs has the advantage cause she can rest at any point. peach is more afraid of you than you are of her.
Mahone
Smash Champion
I know, i think its jiggs favor, but i meant that dop's spacing is better than mine, so the longer it went on, the more i was at a disadvantage.
Also, thanks for the comments, i really appreciate it.
Also, thanks for the comments, i really appreciate it.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
yo mahone, KK and Idea covered the subtle things better than I ever could, but I think you really need to work on your DI. Just really focus on it for a few practice sessions. You get combo'd way too hard in situations where you could DI out.
edit: finished watching the set. yhis isnt as big a problem as it seemed at first. you just stay too close to peach a lot of the time. like you'll bair her, hit her shield, drift out but then drift back inb ecause you want to keep the pressure up, but that just gets you FH naired. things like that.
also your last stock on game 3 looked like you were overcompensating. like, when you were bairing dop you were spacing them a lot better and staying out of danger zones, but you were staying too far away in the neutral position and getting turnip camped. that's a hella hard middle zone to hit right though, but you're obviously getting way better at it.
edit: finished watching the set. yhis isnt as big a problem as it seemed at first. you just stay too close to peach a lot of the time. like you'll bair her, hit her shield, drift out but then drift back inb ecause you want to keep the pressure up, but that just gets you FH naired. things like that.
also your last stock on game 3 looked like you were overcompensating. like, when you were bairing dop you were spacing them a lot better and staying out of danger zones, but you were staying too far away in the neutral position and getting turnip camped. that's a hella hard middle zone to hit right though, but you're obviously getting way better at it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Haha don't sweat it; just remember to clear your head during matches and think a bit when it's not a high stress situation. Nice thing about Puff Peach is that you can make the match a bit slower at times and think about your mistakes in a safe environment much more than you could vs like Fox or something.Ya thanks alot, i felt bad cuz i didn't really follow any of your advice from last time until game 3. I told my friend after that i knew i was being ******** with fsmashes, but i was just too scared of his spacing... i felt that the longer it went on, the more of an advantage he had, so i just tried to get lucky with fsmashes, but it didn't work at all.
I'm gonna work really hard at analyzing these videos and i promise next time i'll beat him. Thank you for all your advice, I'm starting to get better at thinking about the game, as i noticed almost everything you said after i played him.... problem is i need to think of it while im playing
F-smash is not really good when the opponent is on the ground unless they're in lag or something. If they're in the air and you're finishing a combo then sure, whatever. If you're using it to trade with an aerial or something then sure. If you're edgeguarding them then that's great too.
The problem you have with it is that you're not really use it for what it is good for, basically.
I know Peach is really frustrating because you want to put it away and make her dead but that's playing directly into her hands
Doing things out of desperation is usually what the opponent wants you to do and is a good way of making yourself really predictable.
If you and Peach are both rushing each other while facing each other, aim for her head. It's the part of her body least protected by Nair.
Mahone
Smash Champion
Ya, thanks a lot, i definitely see what you are saying. I've actually decided that from now on, I'm striking down to FD or Dreamland, because even though Peach likes FD, i think it gives me more time to think and adapt, which will hopefully give me an advantage in game 2 and 3.Haha don't sweat it; just remember to clear your head during matches and think a bit when it's not a high stress situation. Nice thing about Puff Peach is that you can make the match a bit slower at times and think about your mistakes in a safe environment much more than you could vs like Fox or something.
F-smash is not really good when the opponent is on the ground unless they're in lag or something. If they're in the air and you're finishing a combo then sure, whatever. If you're using it to trade with an aerial or something then sure. If you're edgeguarding them then that's great too.
The problem you have with it is that you're not really use it for what it is good for, basically.
I know Peach is really frustrating because you want to put it away and make her dead but that's playing directly into her hands
Doing things out of desperation is usually what the opponent wants you to do and is a good way of making yourself really predictable.
If you and Peach are both rushing each other while facing each other, aim for her head. It's the part of her body least protected by Nair.
I'll definitely get rid of the desperate fsmashes and think about hitting her head.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
you got this
Mahone
Smash Champion
Ya sure, i was gonna add it, but i feel like there are like 2 jiggs players left lol, so i wasn't sure it was worth writing if no one was gonna read it...
If you want i can just talk to you about it at G6 if you want, or if u have any questions about it you can just ask here.
If you want i can just talk to you about it at G6 if you want, or if u have any questions about it you can just ask here.
idea
Smash Master
meh, i can say some stuff about falcon later.
idea
Smash Master
lol
alright so...it's kind of weird...i feel pretty confident against falcon, but i'm never 100% sure what i'm actually...doing. i think that whatever i do naturally just happens to work on falcon, and i kind of go off of that.
off the top of my head (even though i know i'm going to type way too much):
- fair is pretty good in this matchup once you're close to him. you know that thing where you fair the top of their shield so they can't really punish it? that works on falcon. from a neutral position, though, bair is better.
- the only advice i've ever gotten from the falcon side is: falcon wants jiggs to go high up so he can upair her. good advice. don't do that. jump is overrated in this matchup.
- so is shield. falcon REALLY wants to grab you, but if you crouch, he cannot possibly grab you ever. maybe someone has tested this extensively and can prove me wrong...but as far as i can tell...falcon just cannot grab crouching jigglypuff. so...spam that.
- on bad falcons you can honestly just crouch, then shield when they jump, and they'll have no clue what to do. not really good advice against a more experienced one but...it's funny.
- edgeguarding...mostly comes down to patience. jiggs is better than a lot of characters at covering falcon when he does that "which way am I going?" thing with his up-b. she can wait a little ways into the stage and still have time to bair him if he DIs back toward the edge. or, if you're at low percent, wait right at the edge and rest him when he goes anywhere onstage. on dreamland/battlefield/yoshi's it's often good to wait on the platform.
- that's if he has good DI. if he has bad DI, force him onstage then rest.
- falling upair to rest is pretty good. falcon is up in the air a lot, so upair is just good in general. just watch out for his stomp. speaking of which, if he jumps at you and starts his dair early, uptilt will probably go through it (or its hitbox won't be out yet, whatever). so if falcon short hops and does an early dair, try uptilt rest.
- be aware that he's really ****ing fast. he could be on one side of the stage dash dancing, then all of a sudden slamming his knee into your face. and it's pretty easy to trade knee with jiggs' aerials. this also goes back to the "don't go too high up" thing.
- being aggressive is pretty good in this matchup, as long as you're a bit careful about it. basically, falcon wants to dash dance, so if you can shut that down you kind of win.
- this is true of a lot of characters but is worth mentioning anyway: jiggs' uptilt has part of its hitbox at her FEET. which means it's good at shield poking. so that thing where you do a bunch of aerials then land and uptilt behind their shield is good against falcon. especially if he panics and quickly tries to dair you OOS, cause then your uptilt will just beat that too
- uhh, what else...nair isn't that good most of the time. it's decent once you've gotten him to sit in shield (i.e. not dash dancing anymore), and in those cases i like to keep nair out as long as i can, then either nair again or land behind him and uptilt.
- which reminds me...jiggs' grabs are okay against falcon, but they don't really give you that much. none of them directly lead to rest or anything, but they're good for control. sometimes you can dthrow then techchase rest on a platform. yeah, dthrow is pretty much your best throw in this matchup. if they DI in sometimes you can rest off of that. i guess what i'm saying is, jiggs' grab can be good but is unreliable; and you should usually dthrow. bthrowing him off the edge, however, is as good as always.
^ most of this is the, uh, interesting stuff you can do. at the start of the match, you kind of want to gradually move toward him without full hopping too much. a lot of this matchup is waiting for the opportunity to hit him. you don't want to throw out moves and hope he'll run into them, cause he really won't. spaced aerials are not as safe against falcon as they are against some other characters, mostly because of how fast he is and how far he can jump.
this matchup's pretty fun
alright so...it's kind of weird...i feel pretty confident against falcon, but i'm never 100% sure what i'm actually...doing. i think that whatever i do naturally just happens to work on falcon, and i kind of go off of that.
off the top of my head (even though i know i'm going to type way too much):
- fair is pretty good in this matchup once you're close to him. you know that thing where you fair the top of their shield so they can't really punish it? that works on falcon. from a neutral position, though, bair is better.
- the only advice i've ever gotten from the falcon side is: falcon wants jiggs to go high up so he can upair her. good advice. don't do that. jump is overrated in this matchup.
- so is shield. falcon REALLY wants to grab you, but if you crouch, he cannot possibly grab you ever. maybe someone has tested this extensively and can prove me wrong...but as far as i can tell...falcon just cannot grab crouching jigglypuff. so...spam that.
- on bad falcons you can honestly just crouch, then shield when they jump, and they'll have no clue what to do. not really good advice against a more experienced one but...it's funny.
- edgeguarding...mostly comes down to patience. jiggs is better than a lot of characters at covering falcon when he does that "which way am I going?" thing with his up-b. she can wait a little ways into the stage and still have time to bair him if he DIs back toward the edge. or, if you're at low percent, wait right at the edge and rest him when he goes anywhere onstage. on dreamland/battlefield/yoshi's it's often good to wait on the platform.
- that's if he has good DI. if he has bad DI, force him onstage then rest.
- falling upair to rest is pretty good. falcon is up in the air a lot, so upair is just good in general. just watch out for his stomp. speaking of which, if he jumps at you and starts his dair early, uptilt will probably go through it (or its hitbox won't be out yet, whatever). so if falcon short hops and does an early dair, try uptilt rest.
- be aware that he's really ****ing fast. he could be on one side of the stage dash dancing, then all of a sudden slamming his knee into your face. and it's pretty easy to trade knee with jiggs' aerials. this also goes back to the "don't go too high up" thing.
- being aggressive is pretty good in this matchup, as long as you're a bit careful about it. basically, falcon wants to dash dance, so if you can shut that down you kind of win.
- this is true of a lot of characters but is worth mentioning anyway: jiggs' uptilt has part of its hitbox at her FEET. which means it's good at shield poking. so that thing where you do a bunch of aerials then land and uptilt behind their shield is good against falcon. especially if he panics and quickly tries to dair you OOS, cause then your uptilt will just beat that too
- uhh, what else...nair isn't that good most of the time. it's decent once you've gotten him to sit in shield (i.e. not dash dancing anymore), and in those cases i like to keep nair out as long as i can, then either nair again or land behind him and uptilt.
- which reminds me...jiggs' grabs are okay against falcon, but they don't really give you that much. none of them directly lead to rest or anything, but they're good for control. sometimes you can dthrow then techchase rest on a platform. yeah, dthrow is pretty much your best throw in this matchup. if they DI in sometimes you can rest off of that. i guess what i'm saying is, jiggs' grab can be good but is unreliable; and you should usually dthrow. bthrowing him off the edge, however, is as good as always.
^ most of this is the, uh, interesting stuff you can do. at the start of the match, you kind of want to gradually move toward him without full hopping too much. a lot of this matchup is waiting for the opportunity to hit him. you don't want to throw out moves and hope he'll run into them, cause he really won't. spaced aerials are not as safe against falcon as they are against some other characters, mostly because of how fast he is and how far he can jump.
this matchup's pretty fun
Cool, thanks. I like knowing what I need to look out for, on both sides.
Basically from what I've heard is that this MU for Falcon is like the Marth/Jiggs for Jiggs.
Be patient, it's almost impossible to get in, but once he does, he can absolutely wreck.
Basically from what I've heard is that this MU for Falcon is like the Marth/Jiggs for Jiggs.
Be patient, it's almost impossible to get in, but once he does, he can absolutely wreck.
idea
Smash Master
kinda. except it's easier to get in on falcon AND you can wreck him even harder.