Massive
Smash Champion
This is why I've started banning dreamland on Foxes (if they don't).
That and they can run away and camp platforms until timeout.
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Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff
- Thread starter Mahone
- Start date
That and they can run away and camp platforms until timeout.
Mahone
Smash Champion
where do you usually counterpick?
BlueFoxXT
Smash Journeyman
I personally like going to battlefield
Massive
Smash Champion
I counterpick FD or Battlefield on foxes.
On Battlefield the edges occasionally yield free stock from fickle ledge syndrome, the stage is too small to laser camp effectively, and the horizontal distance is conducive to low % rests.
FD is always nice because there is no platform camping and uthrow>rest cannot be thwarted by anything other than their DI.
On Battlefield the edges occasionally yield free stock from fickle ledge syndrome, the stage is too small to laser camp effectively, and the horizontal distance is conducive to low % rests.
FD is always nice because there is no platform camping and uthrow>rest cannot be thwarted by anything other than their DI.
Mahone
Smash Champion
Your reasons for each stage contradict each other lol.
On FD you get laser camped because it's not "too small", and the horizontal distance on FD is not conducive to low % rests.
I honestly think platforms help more than they hurt when it comes to rests. Sometimes they interfere with upthrow rest, but they make up for it with upair -> techchase -> rest.
idea
Smash Master
battlefield or fountain.
it used to always be battlefield, then i think someone on here reminded me fountain exists and i was like "oh yeahhh..."
fountain is like yoshi's except with a really high ceiling. and the weird platforms make it even easier to combo and rest people. partly cause they're usually pretty low, and partly cause the variable height can sometimes mess with people's timing on techs.
but i mean, dreamland isn't that bad either. if the fox plays more by-the-book it's a bit harder since they know how easily they can camp you there, but slightly more instinctual ones won't do that so much and it becomes a decent stage for jiggs again. i guess dreamland and yoshi's are sort of the "mix-up" counterpicks, where you really have to know the other person's playstyle. they're more...situational, you could say.
and then there's always brinstar.
jigglypuff just has a wealth of counterpicks
it used to always be battlefield, then i think someone on here reminded me fountain exists and i was like "oh yeahhh..."
fountain is like yoshi's except with a really high ceiling. and the weird platforms make it even easier to combo and rest people. partly cause they're usually pretty low, and partly cause the variable height can sometimes mess with people's timing on techs.
but i mean, dreamland isn't that bad either. if the fox plays more by-the-book it's a bit harder since they know how easily they can camp you there, but slightly more instinctual ones won't do that so much and it becomes a decent stage for jiggs again. i guess dreamland and yoshi's are sort of the "mix-up" counterpicks, where you really have to know the other person's playstyle. they're more...situational, you could say.
and then there's always brinstar.
jigglypuff just has a wealth of counterpicks
Massive
Smash Champion
They contradict each other by design.
If they are a laser camper I go BF.
If they are a platform camper I go FD.
If they're both I still go to FD, because laser camping is more manageable for me than platform camping.
I'd rather go for the sure thing with uthrow > rest than gamble on a techroll or slow getup.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
its nto a sure thing because DI
Massive
Smash Champion
There is no risk of wiffing a rest with an uthrow, DI being very visible makes it obvious when the rest is there and when it isn't.
However, If they don't DI perfectly (which even M2K messes up), the rest is almost guaranteed.
Mahone
Smash Champion
I don't think resting a techchase is any riskier, you can react to how they are teching before hitting down-b.
idea
Smash Master
it comes down to familiarity, really...in most cases upthrow rest is easier, but they can DI it in different ways that sometimes make it hard to tell if it'll still combo...
jiggs's upair weakens fox's platform camping past like 30% on the lower platforms. it becomes risky for him when he can easily get hit by or trade with upair and get into a techchase-able position on a small platform. and on the higher platform he's too far away to attack you anyway; the higher platform is just for safe transit between the lower two.
platform camping works best against jiggs when she tries to bair or fair fox when he's up on a lower platform. meaning, you are floating in line with the lower platforms, also able to cover the top one with upair. this can work, but you have to be fast about it, and it's often just not worth the risk.
it seems tempting, since you know he's going to jump back up there, but think about the positioning for a minute. you're now in the exact middle of, let's say, battlefield. he can hit you from any of the three platforms if he waits for you to whiff a move.
if you were instead waiting underneath one of the lower platforms, nearer to the middle of the stage than the ledge, he would have to run to the other platform to look for a safer opportunity. once he gets there you can be at the same spot underneath the other lower platform. any time fox has to come DOWN from a platform he has to move slower than if he were on the ground.
all platform camping really does against jiggs is make it safer for fox to run away. the real difficulty with platform camping is when they use it to run away then start to follow you afterward on the ground. and FD is all ground!
tl;dr: go under platforms and upair.
jiggs's upair weakens fox's platform camping past like 30% on the lower platforms. it becomes risky for him when he can easily get hit by or trade with upair and get into a techchase-able position on a small platform. and on the higher platform he's too far away to attack you anyway; the higher platform is just for safe transit between the lower two.
platform camping works best against jiggs when she tries to bair or fair fox when he's up on a lower platform. meaning, you are floating in line with the lower platforms, also able to cover the top one with upair. this can work, but you have to be fast about it, and it's often just not worth the risk.
it seems tempting, since you know he's going to jump back up there, but think about the positioning for a minute. you're now in the exact middle of, let's say, battlefield. he can hit you from any of the three platforms if he waits for you to whiff a move.
if you were instead waiting underneath one of the lower platforms, nearer to the middle of the stage than the ledge, he would have to run to the other platform to look for a safer opportunity. once he gets there you can be at the same spot underneath the other lower platform. any time fox has to come DOWN from a platform he has to move slower than if he were on the ground.
all platform camping really does against jiggs is make it safer for fox to run away. the real difficulty with platform camping is when they use it to run away then start to follow you afterward on the ground. and FD is all ground!
tl;dr: go under platforms and upair.
Keblerelf
Smash Ace
I've been thinking about how to use bair better, and I've came to the conclusion that I shouldn't be approaching with it. I think the majority of bairs done should be when I'm retreating (something about an extended hitbox?).
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Mahone
Smash Champion
I don't think side platform camping is the issue. At least for me, the issue is when they get the lead and then camp the top platform. Then you have to use so many jumps to get to them that they can usually react and reposition to have the advantage.
I'm not sure how you define approaching and retreating, but you should definitely approach with it at certain percents against pretty much all characters when it will combo into another bair, because when they are close to the ledge they have to either di in and eat more bairs or di away and risk getting edgeguarded.
But at low percents usually you just weave the bair out and take one at a time.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Mahone why do you suck?
Mahone
Smash Champion
Idk... but DoH moved to Nova, so I'm getting peach practice!!! Mabye I'll finally stop losing to Dop.Mahone why do you suck?
idea
Smash Master
oh. well, that is the kind of person i counterpick to yoshi's.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
'no risk of whiffing a rest' is not the same as it being a 'sure thing.' of course you're not going to just randomly commit suicide after you up throw, but it can it will usually be DI'd out of. uthrow -> techchase on platform is probably more reliable unless your opponent is so comfortable against jiggs that he does things like know not to try to tech the uthrow.
also when you uthrow to a platform you get to guess a roll and then rest if you guessed right, so it's up to your guess, whereas uthrow rest on FD you get to hope your opponent messes up, which is not the best way to play.
also they dont have to DI perfectly. it only has to be about 1/2 of full DI to be very difficult for the puff to get the rest in time.
Massive
Smash Champion
Someone who has moderate experience with decent jiggs players will not fall for platform rests reliably...
idea
Smash Master
what do you mean "fall for"? once they hit the platform it's technically inescapable. you can react to whatever they do and rest them in time. if you're paying enough attention they don't even have the option to getup attack.
they get thrown/hit to a platform...you jump up and assume they will tech in place...if they do, rest; if they miss the tech, same timing, rest; if they tech roll either way, they will get to the edge before their roll length ends, and afaik you can always get there in time.
lately though, i've been trying to manipulate it so that people die off the top and i don't get punished. so sometimes i'll upthrow them to a platform then just jump up there and wavedash down and try to grab them again. it's not as reliable since they can still DI the upthrow, but in practice, if you upthrow someone with jiggs 2-3 times, they're not going to DI it optimally every time. it's a really fast move. you have to be holding the direction well before she grabs you.
(this is why you should never grab + jab spacies with jiggs, it just gives them time to set up their DI...you need that element of surprise)
also it's just kind of **** to keep a combo going with jiggs when you technically could have ended it already. it makes them lose morale =D
they get thrown/hit to a platform...you jump up and assume they will tech in place...if they do, rest; if they miss the tech, same timing, rest; if they tech roll either way, they will get to the edge before their roll length ends, and afaik you can always get there in time.
lately though, i've been trying to manipulate it so that people die off the top and i don't get punished. so sometimes i'll upthrow them to a platform then just jump up there and wavedash down and try to grab them again. it's not as reliable since they can still DI the upthrow, but in practice, if you upthrow someone with jiggs 2-3 times, they're not going to DI it optimally every time. it's a really fast move. you have to be holding the direction well before she grabs you.
(this is why you should never grab + jab spacies with jiggs, it just gives them time to set up their DI...you need that element of surprise)
also it's just kind of **** to keep a combo going with jiggs when you technically could have ended it already. it makes them lose morale =D
Tekk
Smash Lord
I love doing that to spacies if I'm not sure my upair will connect after Uthrowing them.
It really messes with their head, and is almost inescapable if you have quick enough reactions.
Tekk
Smash Lord
Legit double post:
I just had a thought for the peach matchup that could be useful: always light shield instead of "normal" shield. I don't know if it's something known, but when peach Dsmashes your shield, you always get shieldstab'd on the last hit, whereas the knockback your lightshield undergoes gets you away from peach during the first 3 hits or so.
I tested it out while playing with #51 and it worked out perfectly.
I just had a thought for the peach matchup that could be useful: always light shield instead of "normal" shield. I don't know if it's something known, but when peach Dsmashes your shield, you always get shieldstab'd on the last hit, whereas the knockback your lightshield undergoes gets you away from peach during the first 3 hits or so.
I tested it out while playing with #51 and it worked out perfectly.
Mahone
Smash Champion
Ya i feel like this is one of those things that makes sense and works, but no one does it lol
King5280
Smash Journeyman
this thread is sick shoulda been stickied/finished. good **** mahone.
Mahone
Smash Champion
thanks man...
i asked tec0 to sticky it but he wouldn't cuz it was inactive... which i thought was sorta dumb cuz it was only inactive because it wasn't stickied and therefore not on the front page... but i didn't feel like arguing so i just let it die
I actually thought about going back and rewriting a lot of it, since i got a lot better since i wrote this, and mabye finishing some more matchups, but it seems like a waste since the thread isn't stickied... so you can just pm me if u have any questions or ask in stuff about puff
i asked tec0 to sticky it but he wouldn't cuz it was inactive... which i thought was sorta dumb cuz it was only inactive because it wasn't stickied and therefore not on the front page... but i didn't feel like arguing so i just let it die
I actually thought about going back and rewriting a lot of it, since i got a lot better since i wrote this, and mabye finishing some more matchups, but it seems like a waste since the thread isn't stickied... so you can just pm me if u have any questions or ask in stuff about puff
idea
Smash Master
lol i never did get around to doing any more of this. oh well, still could someday if there's interest.
Mahone
Smash Champion
you guys should just ask tec0 to sticky it.... maybe he'd listen if multiple people asked him
once its stickied you should write more idea, the peach matchup stuff was really good
once its stickied you should write more idea, the peach matchup stuff was really good
Here i got you.
Mahone
Smash Champion
As long as it remains active and or updated it should be stuck, so make sure it stays that way! :3
King5280
Smash Journeyman
good **** and jungle hit me up to smash sometime if your ever free its been forever
King5280
Smash Journeyman
you should put the falcon mu thats a few pages in on the op. pretty common matchup and that was some good stuff in there.
Mahone
Smash Champion
Ya sure, im actually rewriting the guide right now, so i'll make sure to add that too.
boomrested
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2011
- Messages
- 215
Good guide, I noticed you said something in the fox section about being able to punish missed upsmashes. Could you elaborate on this? I have a lot of trouble hitting him with anything after he upsmashes, I consider myself lucky if I can even land a nair on him.
Mahone
Smash Champion
ya sure, basically if they hit too close with the upsmash, you can jump out of shield towards them and rest them because upsmash has a lot of cooldown...
It is a very difficult thing to do at first though, because the timing is tight and you have to wait for the upsmash's shield stun to end before trying to jump out of shield...
Ask a friend to practice it with you and you should get the hang of it...
If they space it better, or you just don't want to take the chance of resting... you can wavedash out of shield and grab them... a lot of times this will work even if you are a little slow because most foxes will shield after they miss a upsmash on your shield, because they are expecting that rest (or nair in your case), plus as a bonus, they are usually surprised by this so they don't di if you upthrow...
I'll try to find a video of this to help you out
As a funny sidenote... i played mango's fox at ROM 4 in a mm, and we were on brinstar and i had broke those egg things to split up the stage... and later in the match he upsmashed my shield on the top platform, and i tried to rest him oos but i missed (i think cuz i was nervous, but mango might have just spaced it to make it look like i could idk) and as a result i was falling of the right side of the platform sleeping and he started laughing before anyone else did because he knew i would fall right through the ****ing gap i had made in the stage and there was no lava to save me... Mango's too good
It is a very difficult thing to do at first though, because the timing is tight and you have to wait for the upsmash's shield stun to end before trying to jump out of shield...
Ask a friend to practice it with you and you should get the hang of it...
If they space it better, or you just don't want to take the chance of resting... you can wavedash out of shield and grab them... a lot of times this will work even if you are a little slow because most foxes will shield after they miss a upsmash on your shield, because they are expecting that rest (or nair in your case), plus as a bonus, they are usually surprised by this so they don't di if you upthrow...
I'll try to find a video of this to help you out
As a funny sidenote... i played mango's fox at ROM 4 in a mm, and we were on brinstar and i had broke those egg things to split up the stage... and later in the match he upsmashed my shield on the top platform, and i tried to rest him oos but i missed (i think cuz i was nervous, but mango might have just spaced it to make it look like i could idk) and as a result i was falling of the right side of the platform sleeping and he started laughing before anyone else did because he knew i would fall right through the ****ing gap i had made in the stage and there was no lava to save me... Mango's too good
idea
Smash Master
you can't always rest that oos 
the fox basically has to misspace it. also, i don't think it's possible to wavedash oos to punish it ever, everyone always spot dodges first. (i should really just start waiting for the spot dodge )
the fox basically has to misspace it. also, i don't think it's possible to wavedash oos to punish it ever, everyone always spot dodges first. (i should really just start waiting for the spot dodge )
boomrested
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2011
- Messages
- 215
So it's basically the same as resting falco's fsmash oos, you can only do it if they seriously misspace it?
Mahone
Smash Champion
ya its the same idea, different spacing and shieldstun though
DOOM DOOM
DOOM DADOOM
good stuff mahone =)
DOOM DADOOM
good stuff mahone =)
Krynxe
I can't pronounce it either
Subbed. Hopefully this thread will be more active about MUs and actual match advice.
Mango's thread just became the puff social thread lol.
Mango's thread just became the puff social thread lol.
King5280
Smash Journeyman
this thread will be too legit once more mus are up