Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[Krynxe]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who didn't know this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMYxIIE4vWc&feature=endscreen

You're the only one who didn't know this

 

[KrIsP!]

Hbox just comes in here randomly with encouraging words. Not sure if he reads anything or not.

 

[Bones0]

This is amazing levels of BS. I want to learn to play ICs vs. Puff now. XD

 

[Mahone]

Don't link puff players getting ***** without any critique or insight in the puff boards man... thats kinda ****ed up, why wouldn't you just post that in the ics thread

 

[Massive]

ICs are a dumb character anyway.

You can't get grounded on them, and you cant do anything that will get grabbed. It's a more boring matchup than peach.

 

[Bones0]

Don't link puff players getting ***** without any critique or insight in the puff boards man... thats kinda ****ed up, why wouldn't you just post that in the ics thread

Cause ICs are lame. I heard all the cool guys go here.

Plus I was interested in what Puff players thought about the matchup. That blizzard desync **** literally looked impossible to do anything about. I have no insight because I am secretly awful at this game, and even more so with Jigglypuff. <-- (Jiggs getting hit by Fox usmash)

I will just balance it out.

 

[idea]

haha i don't mind, he's really good and i didn't know how to deal with blizzard

also i decided even before this tournament started that i was gonna switch mains, so for most of it i didn't have a puff mindset at all and played rly rly bad.

oh, but now i'm johning about that tourney as a whole, not that set ^ fly would have soundly defeated me either way lol

 

[Bones0]

Oh ****, I didn't realize that was someone who frequented SmashBoards... I just thought it was some random Puff, and I honestly just clicked the vid because of Fly. But not random in the sense that you're bad or something cause your Falco easily did better than mine would have. Now I feel like a ****. rofl My bad.

 

[ShroudedOne]

ICs/Puff can be really stupid. Puff can't do anything on the ground, and what she does in the air has to be more non-committal than usual. And yet, ICs can't do much to her if wobbling is banned, since they have no grab combos on her. If wobbling is legal, ICs probably beat Puff by a goood margin. Without it, Puff can be a little riskier, and it's probably closer to even. Puff just has to bair really, really safely, and not that often until she gets a hit.

Or you could do what Hbox did to Fly and just float in nair > rest a bunch. But I don't think that works with proper spacing on the ICs part (iirc, Fly didn't expect that trick).

IMHO

 

[Mahone]

no, nair rest is just the easiest vs ics cuz if u miss you hit nana

the few games ive been able to take off chu have been a result of resting the **** outta nana, and i really do think if you play like hbox did the mu is even

he played REALLY good vs ics, idk what happened but his gameplan was like 100000x better vs ics than before...

still not enough nair though, that move is tooo good against them, but it didnt look like he needed it

 

[Bieber]

this is actually my favorite matchup with puff (probably not my best but it's fun as **** to play, if you get one hit on nana you can zero to death her easy and then it becomes a battle of wits vs sopo), i definitely don't think it's in ic's favor; i've beaten nintendude and taken games off trail in tourney and they're both way better than me

@shroudedone wobbling doesn't make a huge difference, since you can get out of it at low percents and if you get grabbed with nana close by they can kill you mad early even without wobbling (weird grab combo--> upsmash). bair is actually pretty bad against both ic's in my experience, the distance at which you can safely bair them is very tight, so pretty much unless you're hbox and have flawless spacing they're gonna wd oos punish you a lot. weaving nairs is definitely the go to spacing move imo

nair rest doesn't actually work on nana if the ic light shields, which fly started doing like halfway through the set

 

[ShroudedOne]

Nair just seems so suspect to CC, and just general smashing of hammers...I don't feel like it's a move they can't challenge? In any case, I'll take your word for it. But Bieber, without wobbling, they're not going to kill you before 70, usually (and that's on Yoshi's) from grabs.

 

[Mahone]

@shroudedone wobbling doesn't make a huge difference, since you can get out of it at low percents and if you get grabbed with nana close by they can kill you mad early even without wobbling (weird grab combo--> upsmash). bair is actually pretty bad against both ic's in my experience, the distance at which you can safely bair them is very tight, so pretty much unless you're hbox and have flawless spacing they're gonna wd oos punish you a lot. weaving nairs is definitely the go to spacing move imo

nair rest doesn't actually work on nana if the ic light shields, which fly started doing like halfway through the set

i believe if you do wobbling correctly/a certain way, then you can't get out at 0%...

also it changes the rest punish from a double upsmash to instant death, which i think is a pretty big difference, since resting can be somewhat common in this mu

ya, its like jabs while blizzarding into dthrow upsmash or something like that, kills pretty early relative to the rest of the cast vs jiggs

i also find bair pretty hard to use and easily punishable in this mu, nair is just too good

i didn't know that about the light shield thing, thats good to know

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, I'll keep nair in mind, then. I guess I don't like engaging ICs quite in that kind of way, but yeah, sounds good.

Can someone tell me why, exactly, positional advantage via stage control (pinning Puff at the ledge and having her above you) doesn't matter as much for Puff? I think that a viable strat against her is smart use of shield that she can't challenge safely (because she doesn't have shield pressure aside from tomahawks) that forces her to cede stage space to you, but everyone says that "pinning Puff doesn't matter." It's not like being closer to the blastzones is something that any character wants, and she WANTS space to set up her walls and stuff, right? Or is there something I'm missing?

It's like saying that Sheik/Marth want to be at the ledge, so that they can gimp spacies. Sure, you can be good at back throw BS, but that doesn't make the edge a GOOD place for you, so much as it makes you a player who is competent at the ledge.

 

[Strong Badam]

Pinning puff to the ledge matters, its just usually for dmg/single hits rather than powerful edgeguard scenarios like against most of the other chars. Mango really pressures hbox at the ledge (watch bh2 vids) as an example. her vertical speed is awful so she can't really go above you; she can regain the center usually by getting a good hit/knockdown or a pretty hard read only, but she has a lot of attempts unlike most chars (6 jumps, not susceptible to combos). again it matters just not as.. rewardingly? hope that explanation helps.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, I see. People make it sound like Puff at the ledge is just "Oh well, doesn't really mean much if you pin her," and I assumed they meant that because of her aerial mobility + several jumps. But like you said, she can't jump over you to regain the middle, and she can't roll in or anything. It's just not like having a spacie (or any other character I guess) trapped at the ledge where you can then knock them offstage and edgeguard them quickly. And I guess part of it "not mattering as much" is due to the fact that, even if you knock Puff off...it's Puff. But yeah, that helps. Thanks, Strong Bad.

And yeah, Mango plays vs Puff almost perfectly (from a theoretical standpoint), and I see good examples of him pinning Hbox, and then doing stuff to him.

As an unrelated side note to all Puffs: Please learn to ledge tech.

 

[Bieber]

i hate being pinned to the ledge. almost nobody keeps me on the ledge so it's usually not an issue, but my main training partner plays falco and he's really good at this. between lasers, utilt, and bair, unless he messes up or i play SUPER gay he can keep me on the ledge for an entire stock

i'm not too sure about against other characters because nobody else does it to me but against a patient falco the ledge is an awful place to be

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, that's my fav thing about the matchup. Falco has a lot of tools to zone Jiggs at the ledge.

 

[idea]

Oh ****, I didn't realize that was someone who frequented SmashBoards... I just thought it was some random Puff, and I honestly just clicked the vid because of Fly. But not random in the sense that you're bad or something cause your Falco easily did better than mine would have. Now I feel like a ****. rofl My bad.

aha don't worry, if you knew me in person you'd know how difficult it is to offend me

yeah, a lot of that stuff about ICs ^ is right, you have to play really safe and cover their approaches and stuff. same with luigi, marth, sheik, peach sort of, falcon sort of, samus sort of, dashdance-camping-fox. this is why i don't play puff anymore, i have 0 patience in melee

 

[Kaizer]

What are you guys thoughts about that buffered instant jump thing (shield + c-stick up in grab)? Even tho the timing of the jump is pretty embedded in my fingers by now, getting guaranteed instant jump on first frame (if it really is that, maybe i've misunderstood.) feels pretty good. I've tested it w/ cpus today, and it's quite awkward w/ high percentages since u maybe want to jump more than once, but on lower % u got more time to read the di and react (i know, cpus, but you know what i mean). Is it just a weird gimmick, or is there something in it? dthrow is marvelous, since the timing for me is really awkward.

 

[Bones0]

How do you avoid getting faired OoS by Marth when you're spacing bairs?

 

[Krynxe]

Stop trying to space bairs versus marths who aren't dumb

 

[KirbyKaze]

How do you avoid getting faired OoS by Marth when you're spacing bairs?

Get up close and personal instead because it's a stationary, shielding Marth?

 

[hungrybox]

How do you avoid getting faired OoS by Marth when you're spacing bairs?

Stay low. Your objective against Marth is to grab him, contrary to popular belief.

Wavedashing is your best friend. You should use bair frequently, but stay the **** down.

 

[Winston]

Fair oos is actually fast enough to hit spaced bair -> retreat? That seems like it shouldn't work at all...

 

[KirbyKaze]

It isn't but if he's waiting for you, rush him the **** down since he's basically giving you a free opening to get your crouch game going in front of him.

 

[KrIsP!]

^good idea. Worst thing I can think of is you have to crouch cancel a fair.

Let's say I need to touch the ground to refresh jumps and a fox is approaching with a nair, what should I do. Someone had told me to buffer an upsmash, shielding doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

[Strong Badam]

you can't buffer an upsmash....

 

[Bones0]

Get up close and personal instead because it's a stationary, shielding Marth?

He only shields when I leave the ground, and then he fairs on reaction as soon as I'm within range. It seems impossible to get in when airborne, and staying on the ground is just too slow.

Stay low. Your objective against Marth is to grab him, contrary to popular belief.

Wavedashing is your best friend. You should use bair frequently, but stay the **** down.

Should I be doing a lot of WDing back away from the fair and then trying to punish the whiff, or should I be trying to get him to fair and then come in with stuff like WD turn around grab? For low bairs, do just just mean SH AC bairs to keep him honest?

Fair oos is actually fast enough to hit spaced bair -> retreat? That seems like it shouldn't work at all...

Maybe I am going to deep with my bairs, but even when I space them well and fade away, I just end up giving up space.

It isn't but if he's waiting for you, rush him the **** down since he's basically giving you a free opening to get your crouch game going in front of him.

^good idea. Worst thing I can think of is you have to crouch cancel a fair.

Let's say I need to touch the ground to refresh jumps and a fox is approaching with a nair, what should I do. Someone had told me to buffer an upsmash, shielding doesn't seem like a good idea.

I CC a lot and it tends to work a decent amount, but then I get to higher %s and I'm just recovering for days and even fairs won't get CCed.

Thanks everyone for all the help. I at least have enough to think about.


For refreshing your jumps, I can't give you the good, safe option, but my crazy and reckless suggestion would be to try to triangle jump (where you land right before the airdodge stalls out) towards him, or even ballsier, you could pound towards him and just try to outprioritize him. I'm sure other people have better ideas though. lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

Empty jump?

If he's waiting for the thing to hit his shield then just jump in but don't hit his shield.

These are real basic mixups Bonesey.

If he's fairing on reaction it can be bait-punished. DJ back and pound or something to trade or outspace it. I dunno. I'm just not seeing how Marth's shield > fair OOS can stop Puff's aerial mobility. Stationary play by Marth loses to movement-based play by Puff IMO because lower aerial mobility makes knee-jerk responses a liability. Weave in the air better. I dunno.

Or just WD in and crouch (back to Marth) and go from there. Bair OOS on him if he swings with fair, otherwise enjoy your stage since Marth can't really challenge crouching Puff that well unless he's good with d-tilt (so basically he's PP).

 

[Bones0]

He's not waiting for me to hit his shield. He's fairing as soon as he sees me coming in, and if I feint, then he fairs again (SH double fair) before I can punish the first. I've been FHing most of my bairs, so maybe that is the issue. That's also why I don't use a lot of empty hops now that I think about it. I'm too high off the ground to just land next to him without him reacting. My weaving is also probably just bad though.

 

[Massive]

Let's say I need to touch the ground to refresh jumps and a fox is approaching with a nair, what should I do. Someone had told me to buffer an upsmash, shielding doesn't seem like a good idea.

It's likely dependent on how he's approaching with nair, but generally I'd say it's good practice to waveland back (for shorthop nair)/forward (nairplane) instead of just hitting ground and letting it smack your shield/spotdodge.

He's not waiting for me to hit his shield. He's fairing as soon as he sees me coming in, and if I feint, then he fairs again (SH double fair) before I can punish the first. I've been FHing most of my bairs, so maybe that is the issue. That's also why I don't use a lot of empty hops now that I think about it. I'm too high off the ground to just land next to him without him reacting. My weaving is also probably just bad though.

Then stop approaching with bair and start using shorthop nairs.

There's also always the option of making him approach. It's not like he can shoot lasers at you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bones

Sounds like a weaving thing

Marth has like no range when he jumps OOS to fair because he's not starting it with a dash nor is it using WD momentum

You can probably SH towards him and fade back as an effective bait tbh so long as you stay outside of his jump forward fair range (or dip in for like a split second and then leave ASAP)

This doesn't sound complicated to beat

 

[Bones0]

It's likely dependent on how he's approaching with nair, but generally I'd say it's good practice to waveland back (for shorthop nair)/forward (nairplane) instead of just hitting ground and letting it smack your shield/spotdodge.


Then stop approaching with bair and start using shorthop nairs.

There's also always the option of making him approach. It's not like he can shoot lasers at you.

Yeah, I actually realized last night watching vids that I could AC nair into grab. I do a lot of AC nairs, but he ends up just shielding and I was too afraid to land in front of him and get grabbed. I guess I should also try crouching under grab. I guess that just feels gimmicky to me because I'm not used to it.

Bones

Sounds like a weaving thing

Marth has like no range when he jumps OOS to fair because he's not starting it with a dash nor is it using WD momentum

You can probably SH towards him and fade back as an effective bait tbh so long as you stay outside of his jump forward fair range (or dip in for like a split second and then leave ASAP)

This doesn't sound complicated to beat

Dear KirbyKaze,

Thanks for your letter critiquing my weaving. I will be sure to implement the stuff you have sent me.

Sincerely,
Bones

 

[KrIsP!]

you can't buffer an upsmash....

You'd be the one to tell me, perhaps they meant utilt I can't really remember nor do I know.

Last night my weaving and and general movement felt a lot better, I finally got a CRT in my room rather than an HD Tv and its really just a matter of practice and implementing what's been discussed here. Glad to see people are actually talking now that I'm back into practicing, for a top tier we don't have many posters but there's quality here.

Now, what I need some help with is DI, how would you DI a falcon's downthrow? In? Any general comments on non-survival DI? Obviously most of it is specific to the situation but I've never really read anything on DI besides how to do it, mostly just learn from playing.

 

[Strong Badam]

there is no attack that you can buffer in this game, other than dthrow via c-stick for some reason

 

[KrIsP!]

there is no attack that you can buffer in this game.

r-really? Now I know people have talked about it to me before which had just confused me because I didn't understand what they were talking about. This actually clears up a lot of **** I was trying which isn't possible, I've got to pick and choose who I listen too cause it never made much sense to me.

 

[knightpraetor]

"Yeah, I actually realized last night watching vids that I could AC nair into grab. I do a lot of AC nairs, but he ends up just shielding and I was too afraid to land in front of him and get grabbed. I guess I should also try crouching under grab. I guess that just feels gimmicky to me because I'm not used to it."

this is how i play the matchup as jiggs but i get the feeling it's not optimal most of the time because you cut your range too much. That said, if you're down and need a rest it's the way to go.

I feel like mahone only uses nair approaches when he's down massively and needs a rest setup to have any chance of winnig.


i don't see how full hopping with jiggs would be able to have a guaranteed punish after baiting marth's fair. However, he should have to retreat the DJ fair if he wishes to be safe, so you do get some stage space, but you would have gotten more off of a weaved sh bait.

you can force marth to come to you, but 100% camping will get you wrecked if the marth is good. predicted movement is really easy to punish on both sides in this matchup, so you really ought to be balancing your offense and defense and adapting to your opponent. If you go into a match thinking you are just going to camp the marth and he just plays to eat up stage space and predicts your retreats you're going to get wrecked so hard

 

[Massive]

you can force marth to come to you, but 100% camping will get you wrecked if the marth is good. predicted movement is really easy to punish on both sides in this matchup, so you really ought to be balancing your offense and defense and adapting to your opponent. If you go into a match thinking you are just going to camp the marth and he just plays to eat up stage space and predicts your retreats you're going to get wrecked so hard

This is generally true about almost every matchup in the game, honestly.

AC Nair to crouch is a bread-and-butter jiggs tactic. Hell, crouching should be considered a bread-and-butter jiggs tactic.

If you're willing to try to crossup your opponent, AC nair>utilt shieldpokes like a mother****er. On a quasi-related note, Dair > usmash is also pretty awesome/effective vs Marth, mostly because dair shieldpokes pretty well. It can also set up for dair>rest at higher %s if he goes into tumble.

 

[BairJew]

So I call upon the help of anyone. It has been a while since I have posted anything due to the amount of time I've been devoting to playing. I thought that it would be easy to get help with puff living in Florida with the greatest puff main around. However, it is a lot more difficult than I originally thought. The main problem is I have a ton of time on my hands and I'm curious as to what to practice on my own time. Many people suggest watching videos of various puff mains to view different styles, and different match-ups to gain some insight as to how people struggle or beat the tricky match-ups. Other than reading info on the mu's and watching videos is there anything concrete to practice technically by yourself such as DI, techs, ,spacing, etc. or do you need to play with someone to apply and practice those things? Or is there something I'm missing which I can practice in my spare time?
Anyways focusing on the more concrete puff problems, there are several things which I am having issues with specific match-ups.

Falco: For the longest time this was one of my favorite match-ups. Take them to yoshi's or fountain so they can't bounce around everywhere and then just ****. In most instances I wouldn't even have to be safe and patient I could run in and ram their shield and then just dominate. Bait them into your shield then bthrow off into an easy edgeguard. However, just recently I have encountered trouble With safer and more precise Falco's. I tried to make myself more patient and react to what they did but it was difficult. The lasers are crazy gay when on DL and poke, they always make me approach and when I start approaching it all goes downhill. Anything to get around that camping style? Also is there any way to beat retreating dairs it seems to always beat by bair/fair even when I'm trying to space it correctly, and also full hope bairs/nairs seem weird when I'm trying to beat them. I'm most likely doing something wrong but I was curious whether that was something which was difficult for jiggs to beat.

Fox: Worst mu. Don't know how to beat the speed. The constant change up of grab->uthrow->uair, usmash OoS, dash dance laser camping, and dash dance ->grab/usmash/taunt everything is so **** and I've realized that I am completely lost in this mu.

Falcon: Getting better. Bait the Dash Dance grab by CC->Rest/Grab/fsmash is really ****, I found you can also CC low knees/uairs/and nairs at low % which is **** as well. Getting better at edgeguarding falcon which is super easy. you can always go out off stage and get it if you are patient and place aerials well. I still slightly struggle with speed against this character as well which makes things slightly tricky. Struggling to find a way to make jiggs seem faster then she really is.

Marth: Weird mu. CC is super ****, and you can beat his tricks if you place aerials correctly, but it still is difficult to focus sometimes because it is a lot easier for him to approach you than vice versa. I guess spacing is key in this mu, other than CC the dash attack are there other ways to rest marth? I constantly feel like it is easy if you get in but I may be wrong. I have some trouble against Marth but it is probably because I am impatient. Is there any way to get around sh fairs->grabs other than baiting them into doing it or retreating away when you see them approach?

Peach: Seems really easy for puff
Sheik: Also, seems fairly easy with CC and the rest game is pretty amazing
Ganon: Don't mess up rests or edgeguards.

Doc: Hands down worst mu. Probably worse than fox. I get super *****. Played SmashMac and got destroyed. He's super good but I still thought I would do a little better in that mu than how it turned out. Pills seem way too good, and Doc is just floaty enough to get many of my grabs and seems to get away with camping too easily as well as a decent grab game which I've now gotten consistent at DIing behind Doc when he dthrows to avoid the easy fair. Still is there anything which beats DOc's stuff other than poking his shield with bairs or fairs? Even so this matchup seems super tough to me for some reason.

For anyone who actually read this whole thing thank you soooo much. SOrry for the amount of questions I kind of wanted to get everything off my mind in one go rather than extreme multiple questions. the puff boards always have fantastic people who provide advice so thank you guys you are all awesome and amazing.