Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[AppleAppleAZ]

So I call upon the help of anyone. It has been a while since I have posted anything due to the amount of time I've been devoting to playing. I thought that it would be easy to get help with puff living in Florida with the greatest puff main around. However, it is a lot more difficult than I originally thought. The main problem is I have a ton of time on my hands and I'm curious as to what to practice on my own time. Many people suggest watching videos of various puff mains to view different styles, and different match-ups to gain some insight as to how people struggle or beat the tricky match-ups. Other than reading info on the mu's and watching videos is there anything concrete to practice technically by yourself such as DI, techs, ,spacing, etc. or do you need to play with someone to apply and practice those things? Or is there something I'm missing which I can practice in my spare time?
Anyways focusing on the more concrete puff problems, there are several things which I am having issues with specific match-ups.

Falco: For the longest time this was one of my favorite match-ups. Take them to yoshi's or fountain so they can't bounce around everywhere and then just ****. In most instances I wouldn't even have to be safe and patient I could run in and ram their shield and then just dominate. Bait them into your shield then bthrow off into an easy edgeguard. However, just recently I have encountered trouble With safer and more precise Falco's. I tried to make myself more patient and react to what they did but it was difficult. The lasers are crazy gay when on DL and poke, they always make me approach and when I start approaching it all goes downhill. Anything to get around that camping style? Also is there any way to beat retreating dairs it seems to always beat by bair/fair even when I'm trying to space it correctly, and also full hope bairs/nairs seem weird when I'm trying to beat them. I'm most likely doing something wrong but I was curious whether that was something which was difficult for jiggs to beat.

Fox: Worst mu. Don't know how to beat the speed. The constant change up of grab->uthrow->uair, usmash OoS, dash dance laser camping, and dash dance ->grab/usmash/taunt everything is so **** and I've realized that I am completely lost in this mu.

Falcon: Getting better. Bait the Dash Dance grab by CC->Rest/Grab/fsmash is really ****, I found you can also CC low knees/uairs/and nairs at low % which is **** as well. Getting better at edgeguarding falcon which is super easy. you can always go out off stage and get it if you are patient and place aerials well. I still slightly struggle with speed against this character as well which makes things slightly tricky. Struggling to find a way to make jiggs seem faster then she really is.

Marth: Weird mu. CC is super ****, and you can beat his tricks if you place aerials correctly, but it still is difficult to focus sometimes because it is a lot easier for him to approach you than vice versa. I guess spacing is key in this mu, other than CC the dash attack are there other ways to rest marth? I constantly feel like it is easy if you get in but I may be wrong. I have some trouble against Marth but it is probably because I am impatient. Is there any way to get around sh fairs->grabs other than baiting them into doing it or retreating away when you see them approach?

Peach: Seems really easy for puff
Sheik: Also, seems fairly easy with CC and the rest game is pretty amazing
Ganon: Don't mess up rests or edgeguards.

Doc: Hands down worst mu. Probably worse than fox. I get super *****. Played SmashMac and got destroyed. He's super good but I still thought I would do a little better in that mu than how it turned out. Pills seem way too good, and Doc is just floaty enough to get many of my grabs and seems to get away with camping too easily as well as a decent grab game which I've now gotten consistent at DIing behind Doc when he dthrows to avoid the easy fair. Still is there anything which beats DOc's stuff other than poking his shield with bairs or fairs? Even so this matchup seems super tough to me for some reason.

For anyone who actually read this whole thing thank you soooo much. SOrry for the amount of questions I kind of wanted to get everything off my mind in one go rather than extreme multiple questions. the puff boards always have fantastic people who provide advice so thank you guys you are all awesome and amazing.

I also have these same exact problems. I second this.

 

[Massive]

Here's a few things I've learned from space animal experience in the several years I've been playing Jigglypuff, I don't know if it will help you specifically, but whatever.

A Fox usually wants you to be in one of these positions:

• Directly above him so he can usmash or uair/other aerial you.
• On the same horizontal plane as him so he can dashdance or force you to approach with lasers.
• Below him so he can bair/nair/dair you.
• In some kind of landlag/grounded state so he can grab or techchase you.

A Falco usually wants you to be in one of these positions:

• On the same plane as him, or slightly above ground level so he can zone you with lasers.
• Below him so he can dair or bair you.
• Crossing him up vertically so he can intercept with bair/dair off his huge vertical jump.
• Grounded in some way that lets him fsmash you.

Both space animals want you to recover low so they can ledgeguard more effectively. Both can abuse any kind of landlag/getup/grounded state to major effect.

I can't say what the best practice is here, but I do know what I do and what I've seen other jiggs players do successfully:

• Try to stay at a diagonal above them (30°-60° above horizontal). Spacies have no effective moves to zone the diagonal in this case, Almost all of jigglypuff's moves hit below and to the side of her.
• Try to keep them off the high ground. If there are platforms, they will try to use them to put you into a position their moves are more effective. Both spacies cover vertical distances faster than jiggs, so you need to be proactive.
• When on the ground, stay low on the ground to reduce laser effectiveness. Wavedash under lasers is nice and effective.
• Don't try to crossup through their shield unless you KNOW it's safe (even then it probably isn't). Fox can usmash OoS and Falco can shine you into other unpleasant things.
• Abuse fair/bair/nair to gimp their recovery whenever possible.
• Try to rest below %s where you can be punished with a KO (<30%). Above that gets very risky, very fast.
• Don't go for rest when trading stock is a guaranteed reset. If you can kill in any other way, do it.
• When you land, try to go down with auto-cancelled nair or in a way you can react immediately (either through L-cancel, autocancel, or no move).
• Pound is very effective, but don't do it too frequently. Pound sends your opponent behind you, and can be a very effective ledgeguard, but pounding on the stage just above ground level is a free punish if it wiffs.

 

[Krynxe]

Something I picked up from hbox is, for versus falco, put yourself in positions under platforms where falcos have vertical advantage BUT be extremely ready to react to it. It's a simple bait tactic, the falco will want to drop and dair you, you just wavedash away from the dair you know is coming (because dair has such poor horizontal coverage that a single wavedash will make it whiff) and punish accordingly.

Like any bait, it's situational and you have to be smart about it and use it in moderation.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheiks are super duper easy with Puff until you have to play someone about as good as Tope or so. Because by that point we know how to SH fair and why attacking crouching characters can be good or bad depending on various factors. Most mediocre Sheiks below a certain skill threshold just fold to Puff's primary tools in the MU 'cuz they don't know the counters to all of them and each one they screw up against can usually be converted into a bair chain (if the percent is right) or a rest.

I think vs Fox's rainbow nair (since this seems to be one of his best tools in the MU) you guys should try to do what Darc used to do where he just jumps around and if they FJ nair he tosses out an uair. If it hits and they're over like 20% you can probably do a sick combo or kill them there. It often trades but oh well, nothing's perfect. Something HBox does and it seems really conservative (although that's not bad, since he doesn't get hit) is he just WDs against the nair since they're aiming for the back of his current position & its immediate options (WD back and jump back are the big ones here) so he just moves under it as it's passing overhead and then works from there. Sometimes he gets a soft positional advantage from doing it because he winds up having almost the whole stage behind him, and the Fox is left with barely any real estate. But I think the main thing is to avoid being hit.

I don't think you really beat a strong dash dance by "beating" the dash dance so much as you see if they'll mess it up. I say "mess it up" because good dash dancing is absurdly powerful unless you have something that actively shuts it down or boxes them out of a dancing space (Falco laser, Peach turnip to a lesser degree). Anyway, a solid answer vs most players is to look for clues as to what they're trying to do with their dash dance and you figure out their intentions. If their intentions can be countered easily (usually this means they're picking something greedy or aggressive) do so. Otherwise (defensive ones) you just sort of gradually zone them out of the stage and to the edge so their dance is limited. You could also overshoot but I dunno how you'd do that with Puff. Anyway, while you're pushing them to the edge where they have no room to move, they may decide you're trying to push them out and attack you... at which point you're supposed to recognize this change and hit them. You can also use moves that are hard to punish to zone them out, which is admittedly not a terrible idea a lot of the time (Sheik and Peach do this a lot). Provided you're not committed to playing ultra conservative and want to attack the Fox, I think you're going to have to find a way to poke with bair (range, option to DJ after SHing it) or nair (because it ACs from SH) and slowly press him away from the middle so that you can establish some stage presence. But this is mostly just IMO.

I remember HBox saying that it pays to have a good ground game vs Fox so that might be worth looking into as well. I also think the MU becomes way easier if you can semi-reliably (or better, ideally) SDI the uairs to avoid the KO. Nobody does 2nd hit only vs Puff yet so this is still a good way to stave off death. If you can do it with good consistency, this also massively buffs your shield in the MU in terms of it being a good "I probably won't die for using this" kind of option.

 

[Shadocat]

I just saw a Puff Sing-Ledge-Infinite(whatever the **** you wanna call it) a samus on the pittburgh stream when said samus was right a the edge. Plus that samus got timed out.

What in the world.................

 

[KirbyKaze]

Singstall Infinite

 

[Bones0]

I thought that was banned. I did that to someone the other day and just said, "Well, seven minutes left. How's life?"

 

[KrIsP!]

Perfect way to get to know someone new. I suggest doing this on yoshi's as the happy go lucky music can really soothe the frustration.

 

[Bones0]

For my most recent blind date from eHarmony, I brought her to my parents' basement and sing-stalled her for a solid ten minutes. Then, when I suggested we take a rest, her eyes lit up. That's when I chose my moment to strike. She didn't see it coming, got upset, and left. I yelled "no johns" as she left, but she's just another scrub who doesn't know what it means to play to win. What a dumb *****.

 

[Mahone]

For my most recent blind date from eHarmony, I brought her to my parents' basement and sing-stalled her for a solid ten minutes.

is that what the kids are calling it nowadays

 

[JKJ]

is that what the kids are calling it nowadays

I literally DIED.

 

[KrIsP!]

He really did! Literally.

After I pound my girl I usually lay her to rest.

 

[Mahone]

ahahah wtf....

u realize "lay her to rest" is an euphemism for burying her body


thats pretty dark krisp, even for me

 

[Bones0]

I usually pound my girl after I lay her to rest.

 

[Massive]

I sometimes rollout when I intend to pound.

My love life has not gone so good.

 

[KrIsP!]

Sometimes I break my shield and that just ruins everything for me.

 

[Mahone]

This is not social thread guyzzzzzz




http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=316838&page=19

 

[Bones0]

Jigglypuff's GUA on her back is only invincible for 15 frames out of the total 49 (first hit on 19).

 

[Massive]

Jigglypuff's ledgestand invincibilty is always 2 frames longer than her ledgeroll invincibility, and the animation ends 16-20 frames earlier.

 

[Bones0]

I didn't know Jiggs could do anything other than jump off the ledge.

 

[Mahone]

Jigglypuff's ledgestand invincibilty is always 2 frames longer than her ledgeroll invincibility, and the animation ends 16-20 frames earlier.

thats good to know

i feel like u still need to use roll though since if you get hit you don't count as being on the ledge anymore, which comes up a lot against certain recoveries, like doc...

am i right or is it just in my head?

 

[Bones0]

I think ledge occupancy lasts as long as the animation does, which is why rolling is better. Maybe it's a completely independent factor though. Idk for sure.

 

[KrIsP!]

Yeah, I haven't tested it out myself but I could quote at least 20 people who have said that. I think he meant if your opponent is on stage its a better option. I always just get off the ledge and use aerials onto the stage though.

 

[Strong Badam]

puff suxxxxx

 

[KrIsP!]

puff suxxxxx

Actually kirby sucks, puff blows.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

ahahah wtf....

u realize "lay her to rest" is an euphemism for burying her body


thats pretty dark krisp, even for me

That's when you pound them again

 

[Bieber]

i literally lose to every single fox that camps me (especially platform camping)

i try to approach but then i get *****

i don't wanna just sit there and wall out because it's super gay


hate fox what do i do halp

 

[KrIsP!]

Here's what you need to do. You need to sit him down and say "don't camp the top platform". He'd have to be pretty gay to not listen to you and I'm not going to lie, I like thecut of his jib.

But seriously that is pretty gay, all you can do is weave lasers and trap him at the edge. Get On the middle Platforms for height when approaching, take him to FD. You probably know all that so I'll let someOne who doesn't suck give you some trade secrets, I just want to make a troll reference post but I've made too many of those lately

 

[Prince_Abu]

i literally lose to every single fox that camps me (especially platform camping)

i try to approach but then i get *****

i don't wanna just sit there and wall out because it's super gay


hate fox what do i do halp

if fox is camping the top platform approach from the side w/ bair

and if its the lower platforms up air is good

 

[Bones0]

i don't wanna just sit there and wall out because it's super gay

What? lol This type of strategy is exactly why hardcore camping never works in Melee. Abuse it. Any Fox that laser camps and calls walling bairs gay is a scrub.

 

[Massive]

Get On the middle Platforms for height when approaching, take him to FD.

If the fox is good at camping, FD isn't always the best decision because fox can still easily run away. I'm actually a fairly strong advocate of banning Dreamland vs. Fox since camping the top platform and runaway lasering has become such a prevalent strategy lately.

So take them to Yoshi's Story. There's nowhere to run on Yoshi's Story.

 

[ShroudedOne]

They'll probably ban FoD, I guess. But Yoshi's is ballsy for a Puff (I like it!)

 

[KrIsP!]

I love yoshi's but that's assuming the fox literally can't play aggressive or you plan to out play them. I personally hate FD but if they banned FoD I'd be scared of yoshis. I guess it depends, if I feel like I'm better than them and camping is the issue then maybe but personally I think I'd just go to BF.

What would constitute stalling? I remember having this argument and I feel like I shouldn't have to approach a bad situation when someone camps there but I remember someOne saying I would be stalling by waiting at the ledge for them to drop down.

 

[Bones0]

Stalling is when you are in an unapproachable situation. I think the only true stalls are Peach wall-bombing, ICs wobbling past a certain %, and wall jumping on the bottom of BF. Rising Pound isn't a permanent stall, but it is still usually banned. Circle camping isn't stalling, just really good spacing. If you're losing, you'll have to approach.

 

[KrIsP!]

This is gay, but I will concede and work to beat something like that instead of incessantly johning like most people.

 

[Bieber]

What? lol This type of strategy is exactly why hardcore camping never works in Melee. Abuse it. Any Fox that laser camps and calls walling bairs gay is a scrub.

nah i don't care what the fox or anyone else calls it, it's what i think of it. i have 0 fun playing the game that way. you can beat camping without camping back (i can do it against most other characters), i'm just not good at it against fox yet so i'm trying to ask for advice on good ways to approach a camping fox


Abu, that's what i usually try to do but let's say fox is on the top platform and i try to come at him from the side, then he'll usually just jump away to the other side as soon as i get within range

Massive, i've been thinking about yoshi's as a counterpick against campy fox but it's a pretty scary decision since up smash is dumb and trades with like, all my moves. i'll probably try it out next tourney though

i think what i need to work on is stopping fox from ever getting on the platforms in the first place, since once he's there and committed to running away i don't know how to catch him without eating a bair. so basically i need to call when the fox is going to jump onto a platform and then punish the **** out of him for it. hbox is really consistent at this; every time someone jumps up he's there with a bair to shut them down. since foxes are usually by the edge (to laser me) when they jump onto a platform, if i guess their jump correctly it should be a stock. so uhh any tips for calling a fox's jumps, or on other ways to keep fox off platforms? is it a matter of just watching him until you can figure out his jumping patterns?

 

[hungrybox]

Rejoice, my puffs. For our time has come.

 

[Wake]

We bout to church!

 

[Bieber]

hbox win rom please

 

[Landry]

Hey guys -

What's the best way to fight a really aggressive Falco?

I'm not entirely sure how to stop his short hop > dair > shine > utilt. He can usually do that to me until I get hit or have to drop shield. I guess I should just be avoiding that more since shielding against Falco is not really the best option.

Also, I don't know how to come back from off stage. Most of my approaches are pretty easily countered by Falco's range and he can usually bair me away or just straight up dair me to death.

Luckily, I've been doing a good job capitalizing against Falco with up throw > rest and back throw > dair which has actually let me split my matches with this Falco player.

Anyway, any advice is good. Sorry for not being too specific.