Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[KirbyKaze]

Mahone, I took a look at your guide.

I disagree about FoD vs Sheik. You want that level, I think. Only levels that give either character a big buff are Battlefield and FoD for Sheik & Puff respectively. FD depends on the Sheik... generally it's probably **** vs her but if they know how to function without platforms then Sheik is okay. Dreamland is really good if the Sheik is good at camping but can backfire if Puff gets an early lead ('cuz then... attrition! Yay, attrition!).

Dislike how much the MU can change based on which character is ahead and by how much 'cuz it's so much grinding on behalf of both parties but oh well.

 

[Mahone]

Ya, i agree that bf is the hardest for puff, i'll edit that now

I don't play against many sheiks so i don't really know what to think about most levels and i think tope banned dreamland against me the one time we played so i assumed sheiks thought it was bad as well

I agree with you on fd, i like it vs most sheiks but i remember plank actual seemed pretty good on it so i think it just depends on the sheik

I never thought dreamland was GOOD vs puff no matter what because it takes SOOOO long for sheik to kill, that even if puff doesn't get an early lead, she wins through attrition since she needs so many fewer hits, plus rest ***** sheik so hard that even at super low percent rests kills sheik on dreamland...

but maybe i just haven't seen a sheik camp it effectively

If you could convince idea to write the sheik guide that would be cool, I'm sure he knows more about it than most puffs... i know like nothing about the matchup but i just tend to do well because its really easy and most sheiks, even top level ones, fall for crouching tricks and other gimmicks

The weird thing about this matchup is there are no sheik or puff players so i think puff has a HUGE advantage cuz he has so much stuff to "cheese" sheik with... once you get past all the gimmics i don't even know what the mu would look like

edit: oh also could you explain ur reasoning for fod being so good? i guess in theory its because the platform heights aren't good for camping and then its just a stage with good dimensions since there isn't room for her to run and you kill off the sides and don't have to worry as much about dying off the top to like dtilt upair and stuff like that

 

[idea]

mm i could do that...

although it would probably be faster to just get kk to write it himself lol, he thinks about matchups way more than me...i kind of just realize stuff in hindsight, he likes sits down and makes graphs about how to beat which moves in which situations and

...okay there probably aren't actual graphs.

oh, and he always says fod is bad because i rest him on the platforms there all day ...which is probably true for the matchup in general but i also do that more than most puffs. like you know that dthrow in the middle of the stage thing? that works best on sheik, and best on fod, so that particular trick is about as good as possible in that matchup on that stage.

also random uptilt to rest, those platforms kind of mess up your DI on that, you might randomly end up on a platform and miss a tech when on other stages you could have DIed far enough to escape the combo. uh, i think.

the high ceiling is nice too. sheik's dthrow combos to either fair or upair up to like, i dunno, 90%...but you can DI it so that only one of those two will work at most of the percentages that will kill you. SO, on fod, you can DI so that only upair will combo, and with the high ceiling that lets you survive in cases where you might not otherwise.

but omg this matchup is the most boring thing in the world when sheik plays it right

 

[Bing]

Is it bad that I like Puff dittos because they become stressful?

 

[Krynxe]

Masochism?

 

[knightpraetor]

mahone do you remember how to DI falco's upthrow? i remember it changing on percent

 

[Mahone]

I always just di full behind and get out... I think at like 70-80 you have to just sdi the lasers and then after that you cn continue to full di behind

 

[idea]

yo mahone, what happened vs. g-reg =/ i think you can take him with puff...

i dunno why you cp'd to dreamland though, that's like the last place i would take a falcon

alsooo i dunno if you want advice or not but...you kept hitting him with like rising fair, and then trying to do another move after, usually by crossing him up, but he knew he wasn't still in stun at that point and kept hitting you right away.

 

[KirbyKaze]

He did the cross up thing a lot on shield too, which is typically accepted to be a big "no-no" for Puff.

He also got comboed to death a lot because he held away at the worst time and held in at the wrong time.

Kept getting grabbed out of jumps and stuff.

*shrug*

G-reg too good.

 

[idea]

DI is a harsh mistress.

 

[-Darc-]

Man, why can't we go back to the days where no one knew how to fight puff?

 

[ShroudedOne]

You mean....now?

 

[KirbyKaze]

DI is a harsh mistress.

I agree.

Man, why can't we go back to the days where no one knew how to fight puff?

How far back?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Double post 'cuz I'm a baller

 

[Mahone]

yo mahone, what happened vs. g-reg =/ i think you can take him with puff...

i dunno why you cp'd to dreamland though, that's like the last place i would take a falcon

alsooo i dunno if you want advice or not but...you kept hitting him with like rising fair, and then trying to do another move after, usually by crossing him up, but he knew he wasn't still in stun at that point and kept hitting you right away.

i would appreciate advice if you wanna give it

 

[idea]

'k i'll look at it more closely later.

----------------------------------------------

Okay in terms of how you were approaching him...
1. too much fair
2. don't always do rising aerials (as soon as you jump), he just kept reacting to them. Specifically you did this a lot with your fairs. you don't want to be jigglypuff and predictable at the same time, everyone can react to your **** with a little bit of foresight.

You can do a double fair thing on falcon’s shield the same way jiggs usually uses bair...and it can sometimes be more helpful than doing the same thing with bair vs. falcon, because it gets you closer to him, which is good...but you weren’t doing this, you were fairing once and then trying to do something else. Rising fair through falcon (i.e. aiming to land behind him) is like one of the most punishable things you can do in this matchup and you did that several times

in other words you needed to stay on him but not try to cross him up so much. more bairs probably would have been better.

he kept stomping you. sometimes uptilt can catch falcon out of his jump and he gets raaaaped but if they know about this they can be more careful and not get hit by it ever. two things you can do about that...
1. upair instead of uptilt. it's slower since you have to jump, and still trades somewhat often or gets beaten, but can still be helpful since jigglypuff trades are so heavily in her favour.
2. wait for him to stomp and either shield or get out of the way. Ideally the second one since then you can hit him or something.

i don't even really know what happened on dreamland, you just got hit by everything lol. again though i wouldn't CP falcon to dreamland, his only strength in the matchup is his ability to run circles around you, so i tend to go for smaller stages. but yoshi's is still a bit risky, as with fox, since he can kill you so fast.

i actually kind of like FD in the matchup, even though that seems to contradict what i just said. i figured out why i like it once but now i forget. <_<

falcon puff is sort of weird, it's campy and not campy at the same time. you camp him...somewhat aggressively...for position, and once you're near him and/or he's in shield you can do whatever you want. but he still has that initial ability to keep you out if he does all his aerials really early.

also. you spent too much time in the air. falcon wants you to jump so he can hit you with upair and nair and such. you want to play this matchup more horizontally...unlike vs. fox, jigglypuff doesn't gain anything when coming from above falcon's head.

i think you should have stuck to the ground more and shielded more. not TOO much more shield, but definitely more--sometimes he was being a bit reckless with aerials himself, but it was working because you were trying to attack at the same time.

for the most part in this matchup though, crouch replaces shield. it's probably faster to say you should crouch more. but like, sometimes he would jump across the stage and dair, and that's when you should shield, so...in this case kind of start with shield and once he starts punishing it switch to crouch.

Hmm...i guess this entire matchup is trying to get falcon to shield and then punishing the hell out of him for it. being up in the air not only lets him hit you more easily, but also makes it much harder to punish him in time when he shields or misspaces something. thus you want to carefully zone him, largely with bairs, until you get close to him, at which point you win the matchup

i'm glad i did this actually, i think i clarified this matchup more for myself in the process. and...this is way too long but rather than edit it i'm just going to leave everything. mostly out of laziness but also since it might be more helpful this way.

oh and, DI. that one combo at like 0:45 was just bad DI. but yeah i figure you know that already.

also for future reference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pmg4pCoYmk&t=9m22s
you don't actually have time to wd oos and regrab here, fox can actually just upsmash you first

 

[Mahone]

aiight, i haven't read it yet but thanks

 

[knightpraetor]

hey mahone..you didn't respond to my email but I hope you're doing well. it was fun getting to watch matches of you while here in korea...anyways keep getting better while i'm getting worse lol

 

[Redd]

I'm getting worse too.. now that BOTH OF YOU are gone, lol. </3

Josh, when are you coming back?

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, not till next semester..i've only gotten to play once in korea..i did fine (it's really strange how you always play close to your skill level regardless of whether you are doing totally random stupid moves..it really just goes to show how little the stuff we argue about on the boards matters...at the end of the day...neutral game and spacing off of your movement is 100x more important than move selection or accurate tech skill)...but i can't perform any tech skills...and things that used to be guaranteed 60-80% for me now are just two hits..so i have to work harder and go for simpler stuff....learned a lot of ICs vs sheik while i was here...want to play it again

 

[Redd]

Who is even there to play? LOL

Bummer @ all Summer. Now I'm screwed T_T

 

[unknown522]

The WD oos comment vs u-smash that you made Kyle is wrong. You can grab in time. He was just too slow.

But might as well rest or pound oos anyway

 

[idea]

are you sure? it reaaallly doesn't seem like it

edit: actually watching it again i think you're right, fox was just close enough. i will revise it to: doing this is not the best idea anyway because it's easy to mistime and if you mistime it you die at that percent.

however i think jump oos rest would have worked there too (and more reliably), now that i'm reminded you can do that why do i always forget about rest oos...

 

[unknown522]

So good eh?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Fair OOS is such a waste with Puff a lot of the time. I often think there's something better. Including dair grab, jump into them and rest (situational), pound (situational), you can probably jump into them and uair sometimes, etc. I guess a lot of that requires faster reaction and has less room for error, but it feels like when people do it, they could have gotten something better in a lot of common situations.

 

[Bieber]

I think Fair OOS is such a waste with Puff a lot of the time. I often think there's something better. Including dair grab, jump into them and rest (situational), pound (situational), you can probably jump into them and uair sometimes, etc. I guess a lot of that requires faster reaction and has less room for error, but it feels like when people do it, they could have gotten something better in a lot of common situations.

i like the dair to grab oos suggestion, i'd never really thought of that before. but what about for getting in against a walling marth? those other things you mentioned lead to better combo setups but i can't think of anything besides a quick fair or bair oos that really works for cutting in between marth's wall of fury

 

[KirbyKaze]

Against Marth you may have to accept that cutting damage for speed will often be necessary.

Although it seriously hurts me when he f-smashes a Puff shield with half baked spacing (not a tipper yet, but somewhat spaced) and the go-to response is fair.

 

[boomrested]

So I've been trying this bait against foxes where I purposely misspace a full hop nair to bait a grab. There's a small, small window after the nair where you can jump before you hit the ground. There's not enough time for another aerial, however. If you can get the timing right to consistently jump in that time, you avoid hitting the ground. Since foxes get accustomed to grabbing you after you whiff a full hop nair, they'll try it. You can dair->grab or do whatever punish you want. Sounds easy but it's hard to time, plus it works pretty well. Try it out.

 

[Metà]

Against Marth you may have to accept that cutting damage for speed will often be necessary.

Although it seriously hurts me when he f-smashes a Puff shield with half baked spacing (not a tipper yet, but somewhat spaced) and the go-to response is fair.

I do OOS n-air more than I do f-air. OOS u-air is great for situtations like that as well, because even if you mis-time it, you can land behind them and hit their shield when it inevitable goes up, and you can't be punished.

 

[Krynxe]

shffl uair oos can be great behind a space animal's shield or just after they do something you can expect a jump from, like a mid-air shine on your shield. If you catch them jumping, you usually get a jab reset

 

[KirbyKaze]

So I've been trying this bait against foxes where I purposely misspace a full hop nair to bait a grab. There's a small, small window after the nair where you can jump before you hit the ground. There's not enough time for another aerial, however. If you can get the timing right to consistently jump in that time, you avoid hitting the ground. Since foxes get accustomed to grabbing you after you whiff a full hop nair, they'll try it. You can dair->grab or do whatever punish you want. Sounds easy but it's hard to time, plus it works pretty well. Try it out.

This sounds kind of cool.

 

[boomrested]

This sounds kind of cool.

Getting trolled by KK... great way to start the summer. <3

 

[Mahone]

I genuinely thought it was cool if that makes u feel any better... i thought kk was being sincere as well, but idk.

 

[knightpraetor]

gosh mahone i always think you aren't actually in the thread cause i don't see a post by you in ages, but you're always lurking here somehow

 

[KirbyKaze]

Getting trolled by KK... great way to start the summer. <3

I wasn't trolling. I was legitimately unaware Puff can DJ after nairing in a FJ. I knew you could do it with her other aerials, but not nair.

 

[boomrested]

I wasn't trolling. I was legitimately unaware Puff can DJ after nairing in a FJ. I knew you could do it with her other aerials, but not nair.

My bad. I'm used to sarcastic comments by my friends whenever I do something "cool" with puff. Sorry.

 

[Kaizer]

So I got this problem when i meet Falcon, all i do is fullhop bair -> utilt (dat King), which gets shielded/tech/punished way more than getting hits. Thing is, when it first works, it works like heaven and I'll get at least a ton of damage + pressure, if not a stock. But I'd like to spice it up, do something else. Feels like fullhop bairs are pretty risky against Falcon too, atleast more aggresive bairs. What approach do you guys tend to use in general + getting an utilt?

 

[idea]

first of all fullhopping anything against falcon is kind of risky (with a few exceptions)

second, next time, try not even doing the bair, just jump over and land behind him and uptilt. it scares the **** out of them

and if they wait in shield the whole time, their shield will get smaller, increasing your ability to shield poke with said uptilt. this works even better on ganon btw.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My bad. I'm used to sarcastic comments by my friends whenever I do something "cool" with puff. Sorry.

After fiddling with it, I don't really like it because of how long Puff has to hang out in the air without a hitbox after nairing into DJ. But that doesn't really mean it's bad. I don't like how Puff feels in general. Just something you should be aware of though.

It is nice that, although you're naked without a hitbox for a while, you do get to move around with Puff's massive aerial mobility so barely dodging things is a legitimate plan in this instance.

 

[Mahone]

well if they think they can punish landing lag, im thinking you could jump back pound and catch them off guard at least the first time...

i don't play this game anymore cuz i have no setup or people to play but thats just what i FEEL