Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[idea]

s0ft, pretty sure i already saw those (i'll check when i'm not in class) and your puff reminds me of mine so it should be easy for me to critique it later

one thing i remember is that near the end of the set with chinesahh (lol still haven't clicked those links) is that he went to yoshi's, and started dash dancing more and being more patient, and you were getting kind of antsy and trying to force hits. then next match you counterpicked to dreamland. that would have been good IF you weren't being all aggressive and impatient already.

i mean the main problem was trying to force hits, but taking him to dreamland, which normally would have been good, actually made it worse.

I've never seen a fox dashdance so much and usmash so little.

You probably dont play against foxes who know the match-up.

LOL my thoughts exactly...dash dance is like the MAIN thing to do in that matchup, and upsmashes are often obvious and give free punishes.

 

[Massive]

You probably dont play against foxes who know the match-up.

I'd argue that they know the matchup exceedingly well. They dashdance plenty, they just know when to usmash as well.

There is not a punish for a correctly spaced usmash, especially if you're airborne, it's a shieldpoke, or they pop you up with a jab.

It's so hard to connect rests reliably on them that I've started missing opportunities against foxes who don't know the matchup as well out of habit.

 

[idea]

videos?

in my experience the fox needs to pseudo-predict you to hit with an upsmash. like okay, if you fullhop while near to fox, and he runs under you and upsmashes, then that'll probably work, but that's your own fault for making yourself vulnerable. usually i get hit by upsmash when they catch me at the start of my jump.

i dunno why it would shieldpoke, that like never happens to me maybe you're shielding too much and your shield is always low?

jab upsmash is pretty legit though.

 

[Bing]

Kyle, if we play on the 25th, remind me to dashdance to Upsmash a lot. Thanks

Also, Pound rests are amazing...

 

[Mahone]

DAMN shots fired...

lol... i like how no one actually helped soft...

 

[Massive]

DAMN shots fired...

lol... i like how no one actually helped soft...

I would, but apparently the foxes I play aren't good enough for my opinions to be valid, lol.

 

[Mahone]

naw, upsmash can be good...

it can trade sometimes, if u predict the puff is gonna nair to get down u can get em with upsmash, also tipped upsmash isn't that risky.... until i learn to shield smash di that **** in!!

but ya, it's dumb to say u don't play good foxes or good foxes don't upsmash or whatever...

fox is the most versatile character in the game... there are a million ways to play him...

also i played shiz's fox, his falco is much better against puff imo, not sure why he goes fox... or maybe im just bad against falco idk

 

[Tekk]

also tipped upsmash isn't that risky.... until i learn to shield smash di that **** in!!

word

10words
s0ft you're legit, but I really don't know why you went for that rest the last match, did you give up ? cause you could've bairchained the fox out of uthrow to gimp him, and THEN rest him on his last stock..

 

[idea]

lol, i'm not trying to be mean, i just don't think upsmash is all that good in that matchup. it's certainly not the MAIN kill move...

 

[Massive]

lol, i'm not trying to be mean, i just don't think upsmash is all that good in that matchup. it's certainly not the MAIN kill move...

Hilariously enough, it's pretty much the only way I seem to die against the foxes around here. Stocks I lose are almost always a baited jab > usmash or a well timed usmash trade with a fair/nair. Like Mahone said, we're very likely playing completely different-styled foxes here.

also tipped upsmash isn't that risky.... until i learn to shield smash di that **** in!!

Elaborate please.

 

[idea]

in that case, post videos, maybe i'll find something to tell you about and you can become unkillable

trading upsmash with moves intentionally is also pretty legit...

if they're upsmashing so much, why don't you try to bait it? it's a really good smash, but still a smash, and most of the time it's punishable when they miss...

 

[S0FT]

Tekk I thought there was a possibility that he would di poorly and I would survive. I did not really think about bair chaining him. I just knew at the rate that match was going I was probably going to lose. It was probably because I was not being patient enough like idea said.

Also I had a really bad mindset going into the last match which is pretty disappointing. I wasn't really focussed on the match at hand more on how I should have won the last match, but that is just something I have to work on.

Im not really looking for general comments more like specific things that will, in your opinion, improve my play, kinda like what tekk posted.

 

[idea]

okay, i'll probably rewatch those at some point when i'm bored and look for specific stuff...it was a pretty good set anyway.

 

[S0FT]

Ok so in the yoshi story match on my third stock I upthrow and it turns out I coudlve just rested and won the whole set. But it looked like he was going to land on that top platform.

So the question is when you upthrow fox and he is super close to being able to tech a platform do yall think its good to go for the rest or not go for the rest. We will say last stock

 

[boomrested]

@SOFT-I used to have that problem, until I saw hungrybox do something that pretty much covers all their options. For an example, go to 31:50 in this video:
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=B18EuHxBn1w
It's Genesis 2 crews, you'll see that Hungrybox upairs them right before they're about to land on the platform. If they were going to tech the initial impact on the platform, then they will miss the tech of the upair because 40 frames need to pass between tech inputs, and the upair doesn't have enough knockback to give them the time to tech. Hope this helped.

 

[FoxLisk]

@SOFT-I used to have that problem, until I saw hungrybox do something that pretty much covers all their options. For an example, go to 31:50 in this video:
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=B18EuHxBn1w
It's Genesis 2 crews, you'll see that Hungrybox upairs them right before they're about to land on the platform. If they were going to tech the initial impact on the platform, then they will miss the tech of the upair because 40 frames need to pass between tech inputs, and the upair doesn't have enough knockback to give them the time to tech. Hope this helped.

that does not cover all their options, it covers the option of "trying to tech the uthrow when you land on the platform." it just becomes a mixup; you force them to choose which one to try to tech.

when i got good at teching uthrow on platforms, mahone started uthrow uairing me, but he did it pretty much every time for a while so i just got good at teching that, and then its not any better (maybe worse; youve committed to the upair and have a little bit less freedom to follow up).

it's definitely a powerful option but all it gives you is a 50/50 once your opponent can tech both.

 

[idea]

if i upthrow below a platform and i'm not confident i can just rest them, i usually do 1 of 2 things:

1. jump up + waveland onto platform, techchase grab. if they DI the next throw, either they went to another platform and you can do the same thing, or they went toward the edge and you can hopefully hit them offstage. or...you're on pokemon stadium. lol
2. upair. they will very often land on the platform and miss the tech (they were probably timing the tech for the upthrow alone), so watch for that and rest them.
[edit 2: technically foxlisk is right, but people miss the tech on that upair quite often.]


edit: oh yeah, the EVEN BETTER option, but you have to read them a little.

just let them tech, follow it and rest. people are usually scared ****less when jigglypuff upthrows them so they do predictable things, and their DI often indicates their tech choice if they don't know the matchup. too bad i don't have the relationships memorized, i just sometimes can call it really reliably when i see the DI. maybe you already know what i mean.

 

[FoxLisk]

@idea: i know that people miss that particular tech a lot. i just wanted to drive home that it's not a silver bullet. the do nothing and follow them option is so scary though o.o

 

[Bing]

I love reading Idea's posts on puff tips because I suck at the anyone vs Puff MU. So in turn by reading how he ***** me, I learn.

 

[_Rocky_]

I love reading Idea's posts on puff tips because I suck at the anyone vs Puff MU. So in turn by reading how he ***** me, I learn.

hoho

speaking of which: Idea, if you remember our MM at apex, what are/were your thoughts on it? I remember getting rested a bunch

 

[S0FT]

I guess I asked the question wrong. I mean if you are slightly to the left or right of a platform and you throw them up and you cant tell if they are close enough to tech or not. Like the upthrow on yoshis?

 

[Mahone]

ya i don't take it, i just try to hit an aerial, hopefully you keep your advantage and can continue to pressure...

but tbh, it seems more times than not, when it looks unclear, it tends to be restable

 

[idea]

s0ft: in that case i would still probably upair and just see what happens.

hoho

speaking of which: Idea, if you remember our MM at apex, what are/were your thoughts on it? I remember getting rested a bunch

honestly that was like a month ago and i don't remember it that well...why, did you want advice on the matchup?

 

[_Rocky_]

honestly that was like a month ago and i don't remember it that well...why, did you want advice on the matchup?

yeah loll

np if you don't remember it

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Trying to incorporate autocancel nairs into my game, when do you guys using them?
post 666, maybe I shouldn't use them lol

 

[idea]

you should use autocancel nairs against falcon. there, i answered both questions

note to self: come back here after handing in essay

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

auto cancel nair into duck? Do you ever auto cancel nair through their shield into another auto cancel nair?

 

[idea]

hmmm okay...

autocancel nairs are weird and generally a mix-up. meaning, they tend not to work very well as a main strategy; they work when you do them instead of something else the other person was prepared for.

they do lead well into one of my favourite combos, wait to uptilt. uptilt starts at jiggs' feet so if you can get them to wait in shield for a second, it's that much likelier to shield poke, and NO ONE is ready to DI getting hit through their almost full shield.

they actually do work pretty well on falcon, just as a pressure tool, since he happens to be one of the characters jiggs is better at pressuring.

from a neutral standpoint jiggs has to be careful about approaching falcon, mainly because of his run speed. like fox, falcon has deceptive range because you have to combine his moves + the amount of space he can cover before you can get out of the way...consequently, he has a lot of range, but because you have to add in running + jumping it's not as safe as, say, marth's fair. so falcon can randomly do a lot of damage if you're not careful.

i'd be scared of playing a falcon who can make little reads. all it takes sometimes is for him to call me on floating a certain way after hitting his shield, that could be an upair to knee for the stock, or something. or stomp to stomp to knee. he has these weird combos.

but if jiggs can maintain control, she completely destroys falcon. she can use crouching and...pretty much all her aerials except dair to close the distance, then pressure him with even more aerials and crouching.

basically, against falcon, any time you want to shield, train yourself to crouch.

(so, as a falcon main, you should watch for when the jiggs shields and grab her; and you should have a plan for dealing with her spamming crouch, like stomp, or knowing what percentage you can knee her without her being able to hit you back)

conversely, if you're a falcon main, you wanna be running around like a ***** at all times jiggs can't catch you if you do it right, but she is still going to try to, and that's when you run in and upair or whatever.

be very careful about grabbing jiggs as falcon. NEVER standing grab unless she is in shield. you want to super overshoot dash grabs, if anything. it is worth it to figure out the landing and/or wavedashing back patterns of any particular jiggs player because grabs lead to free knees or upair juggling. again, superior run speed lets falcon continually upair jiggs a lot of the time even if it doesn't combo just 'cause she has a hard time getting back to solid ground. if you're fast enough, sometimes it DOES combo anyway, and even upair to upair is significant on a character that dies so early.

i'm hungry.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

autocancel nairs are weird and generally a mix-up. meaning, they tend not to work very well as a main strategy; they work when you do them instead of something else the other person was prepared for.

This. Is exactly what I needed to hear. thanks

 

[idea]

lol no problem.

nair's still pretty good, it's just situational and kind of hard to...you know what, just go watch a bunch of King videos.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Feels like nair is better than fair for a lot of close-range pressure stuff because of the autocancel. And retreat nair feels like it has some kind of godlike priority.

 

[knightpraetor]

yo great mahone..how does marth beat the invincible puff?

and tell me honestly, how much do you sandbag after the initial 3 matches against my marth?

10%? 30%? 50?

 

[Krynxe]

Only puff players can quantify sandbagging

 

[hungrybox]

Nair is great

 

[Tekk]

thanks hbox =l

 

[ShroudedOne]

The man of few words.

When I was having friendlies with Idea at Apex (Peach/Puff), he was just crossing me up with nairs, and I didn't exactly know what to do. It just stopped me before I could position myself.

 

[FoxLisk]

The man of few words.

When I was having friendlies with Idea at Apex (Peach/Puff), he was just crossing me up with nairs, and I didn't exactly know what to do. It just stopped me before I could position myself.

low float bair oos?

thats what mafia does to me whenever i try to crossover aerial with him. which is like 90 times a game because i suck, incidentally

 

[idea]

The man of few words.

When I was having friendlies with Idea at Apex (Peach/Puff), he was just crossing me up with nairs, and I didn't exactly know what to do. It just stopped me before I could position myself.

yeahhh, that doesn't actually work on peach sometimes i just do things.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You said to me that day, too. It's just weird, if you don't expect it. I need more Puff practice.

 

[Wake]

You said to me that day, too. It's just weird, if you don't expect it. I need more Puff practice.

I'M gonna be the Puff slayer, ShroudedOne. Just stop.