M2K stuff about Marth (big update first post)

[mario-man]

We could also play Melee......or your idea. lol I think I'm leaning towards the first option, but we'll see how Brawl actually plays.

BTW, 1800 posts FTW!!

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Sidenote: If Marth is cheaper, I vote to ban him from tourneys.

Anyway, I don't just main Kirby for goodness sakes. I have other mains high on the tier list. But my problem is that why buff an already good character? It makes no sense whatsoever. Especially when the other characters as good as Marth was are nerfed.

You really don't understand the finer points of a competitive fighting game. First off, you will never have a balanced character roster. There will always be imbalances in a game like this. Certain characters will have advantages over others despite the programmers better efforts.

Marth will never be banned from tournaments. This is like arguing Falco will be banned for Laser-Lock and Bowser will be banned for Klaw Hopping. It's ridiculous.

Second. Marth actually got debuffed. His over b recovery was removed, his nuetral b has a much smaller hitbox, he's actually bigger, so in essence his sword is smaller. There is no stun time so he doesn't chain moves together. His grabs can't link. Marth got debuffed. The problem is the whole game engine got changed, and these changes just happened to not really bother Marth at all.

If you care so much about the competitive scene, go play melee while the rest of the world plays Brawl.

No one is forcing you to play competitively. It's perfectly reasonable to play casual matches. Some of us were just hoping for a game that had a nice balance of the play like melee. Fun for both casuals and serious players alike.

 

[spoonyd]

in anycase, its become clear of a few things through this tread.

1. m2k isnt happy
2. njzfinest is a smash64 fan
3. brawl is indeed a different game.
m2k, no offence man, but i feel like your not treating brawl like brawl. i'm not exactly sure what your feelings were going into the game, or if you just trying to clarify marth is a melee sense in brawl, but its clear that your treating brawl like a new melee. brawl is not anything like melee in a technical sense. i apperciate the information your giving us, but we get it that marth isnt marth anymore. i really value your opinion, but not about when its based on anger. I dont know, it just might be me but i think you need to try and stray away from melee techs and find brawl techs. or, not even. i think this is a great example of why people just need to play the game. find, discovering, re-disconvering moves and **** is awsome, but just play. this post wasnt a bash on you, in no way is it. all i'm saying is try the game from the other side of the fence man, the grass is always greener.


wether or not you fully read the post, take it in with a grain of salt.

I don't think his judgement is based on anger at all. M2K doesn't work like that. Maybe a lil bias at BEST but he's still the robot and will give the most objective opinion after studying something.
The lack of techskill and things that don't come overnight are the things in a game that cause it to be competitive and have depth. It's very obvious that a lot of those things are gone now. All that is pretty clear in the videos and in his descriptions and data.

 

[Miggz]

Marth in melee was really unfair such as fox and shiek were too


In melee marth had longrange, speed, good dmg, greatstun(meaning you can combo),Great grab combos,Mabye the best Edge guard game,he could take a hit and give one right back with a spamable Fsmash Fair Dair Uair Dtilt.

he was easily cheap all this was

much easier to do then Fox cheap attacks as well.

How in the world you get to that? Marth had like NO projectiles. Of course he needed those elements. Also, EVERY character in melee had a so-called "cheap" tactic. I've seen a Game and Watch destroy wicked Fox players. So please, don't bore us with that kind of claim. Learn...to...play.

 

[XxSubzeroxX]

miggz is right. not to bash my main but marth isnt rlly the godly char. most peeps think he is. a good pikachu player cudve easily owned marth in melee, its rlly all about strategy and how ur playstyle is

 

[mario-man]

While we're on the subject of characters being underrated

Mario is one of the most underrated characters in Melee. No, don't just look at my screen name and avatar AND sig, and say that I'm just a huge fanboy. It's because I am a Mario main that I have seen many things that are possible with him that almost no one else has either cared or been able to see. He has so much more potential than he gets credit for. If I have to name drop to get credibility, then I will. Gimpyfish (who is not a Mario main) has said on recent, multiple occasions that he feels the same way. You can ask him yourself if you feel so inclined to disbelieve me.

Back on Marth now. He is a VERY good character, and has alot of things about him that are cheap. For example, his grab range is so huge it's insane. If the player was any good at spacing, then you could basically forget about shield grabbing him, cuz he would be out of your range. On top of that, he could then proceed to grab you because you WERE within HIS grab range. Just because a character has alot of cheep moves doesn't mean that they cannot be beaten, as stated by others before this post.

 

[Kirin]

I can't wait for Brawl personally. I didn't get into the competitive Melee scene early enough to get all of the advanced techniques down pat either, but I respect M2K's opinions greatly. He was just an unstoppable beast in Melee and one of the more well-known Melee players. I agree that Brawl won't be the competitive game that Melee was, but there will still be tournaments. The gameplay is changed but it is still a great game I'm sure. (I haven't played it yet but from videos it looks great)

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Level 9s do the same **** in melee and break combos and powershield perfectly or a majority of the time as I am very sure you are aware, and I think they wiggle but Im not sure so maybe you should answer that.

I don't care how good m2k is at melee I'm not ignorant like a majority of the ****ing brawl boards. Yes he probably was better starting off at brawl than most melee players "just cuz"and while in terms of analysis i think he is held in slightly higher regard but in terms of opinion I don't give a ****.

Also why are people saying there is no hitstun in brawl if there was none then you would go flying in a neutral position and could react at anytime but there is at least a little and he didnt even say there was no hitstun in brawl. Alot of moves have noticably low hitstun but you can still combo in brawl it's just wierder. I played the game so don't just write me off as someone watching videos all day.

This is nonsense. CPUs can't break out of combos (or do anything, for that matter) while they are in stun. Wiggling doesn't decrease your stun time either, it just makes you return to a neutral position at the earliest possible moment.

For example, if you waveshine a CPU, they can only break out if you mess up.

Just because you are not stunned doesn't mean you are in a neutral position, the neutral/sent flying positions behave the same way in Brawl as in Melee.

If you can react almost immediately after getting hit, there is obviously very little stun, there's no way of getting around that. Add to that increased floatyness and slower movement in the air, and it is nearly impossible to combo.

I trust Mew2King on this because what he writes makes sense, as opposed to you.

Also, we're mixing up our terms here. Hitstun is the time in which you "freeze" before you go flying from being hit by a move, stun time is the time in which you can do nothing because you have been hit by a move. During hitstun you can perform SDI (or ASDI on the last frame), during stun time only regular DI.

 

[Turbo Ether]

As I was playing Brawl last night, I was annoyed by the reduced hit stun and I thought about this thread. Reduced hit stun makes it almost always unsafe to try to link attacks and gives a huge advantage to characters with higher priority and disjointed hitboxes. Characters that have no projectile or disjointed hitbox get ***** by this, like Sonic. He's fast and is supposed to be able to combo, but he gets punished easily if he tries to. Keeping a projectile, sword or high priority attack out at all times makes things super hard for sonic.

 

[ChaosKnight]

Rawr M2k i want to face you at chus biweeklies when you come down with my ike and stuff : p

 

[Ryan-K]

Also, we're mixing up our terms here. Hitstun is the time in which you "freeze" before you go flying from being hit by a move, stun time is the time in which you can do nothing because you have been hit by a move. During hitstun you can perform SDI (or ASDI on the last frame), during stun time only regular DI.

That's hitlag buddy. The 18 frames where you can DI in samus' charge shot in melee is hitlag. Hitstun is stun. How could hitlag affect comboing in the game if there was little?

Also I was talking about brawl for wiggling since there may be something or there may not be.

Hey look! I can call people nonsensical randoms too.

 

[ssbm rocks1]

Go Marth!!!

marth sounds like such a beast now

 

[OTRU...]

yo chaosknight!! next time i see u, were gonna have to get some matches in vs my metaknight!

 

[Emblem Lord]

superryan: Whoa...whoa..no..no don't do that this bro. brawl ahs no combos. Also when people talk aboutt he stun time a person receives from being attacked, they use the term hitstun. Hitlag is usually the lag that a character recieves from landing a hit on an opponent.

 

[Emblem Lord]

superryan: Whoa...whoa..no..no don't do that this bro. Brawl has no combos. Also when people talk aboutt he stun time a person receives from being attacked, they use the term hitstun. Hitlag is usually the lag that a character recieves from landing a hit on an opponent.

No one is saying there is no hitstun, just for little to do any longer combos.

 

[BentoBox]

^
You suck at brawl. its true.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

superryan: Whoa...whoa..no..no don't do that this bro. Brawl has no combos. Also when people talk aboutt he stun time a person receives from being attacked, they use the term hitstun. Hitlag is usually the lag that a character recieves from landing a hit on an opponent.

No one is saying there is no hitstun, just for little to do any longer combos.

Generally though, the hitlag is the same as the hitstun, so the terms can often be used interchangeably, although I suppose that would be slightly inaccurate. One exception would be electro attacks like the shine, which have 1.5 times more hitstun (person that gets hit) than hitlag (person that attacks).

@Superryan:

As explained above:

Hitstun: Time in which person that gets hit is frozen

Hitlag: Time in which an attack is frozen from hitting a destructable object/character.

Stun time: Time in which you are immobile save for DI.

Also, you said : "Level 9s do the same **** in melee and break combos and powershield perfectly or a majority of the time as I am very sure you are aware, and I think they wiggle but Im not sure so maybe you should answer that."

Relevant parts are highlighted. The way you structured your post, meant that CPUs in Melee wiggle out of stun, not Brawl, even if you meant Brawl.

Lastly, I claimed that your post was nonsense, not you.

 

[dirty_rice88]

I don't care how good m2k is at melee I'm not ignorant like a majority of the ****ing brawl boards. Yes he probably was better starting off at brawl than most melee players "just cuz"and while in terms of analysis i think he is held in slightly higher regard but in terms of opinion I don't give a ****.

You're just a hater! =P The reason why most of the smash community is "ignorant" is because the majority of us have not played Brawl yet. Of course we're going to believe things that he says over you because he has a lot more credibility, not only in Smash, but in video games in general. HAVE you gone through his video games analysis page? It's freaking ridiculous. He has algebraic formulas for some of his analysis. He broke that **** down to a science.

I don't care that you're stating your own opinion but everyone else is entitled to have his or her own opinion and you don't have to be such a hater! =P

 

[Dark Sonic]

First of all, CPUs do not break out of combos. If they are able to move than it really isn't a combo at all in the first place, and a human player could break out of it as well. CPUs do not reduce the stun time by wiggling, they simply use it to return to a neutral position. They may be frame perfect, but they do not do anything that a human player could not technically do. If combos don't work on them, then they won't work on humans (at high level play anyway).

 

[BentoBox]

You're just a hater! =P The reason why most of the smash community is "ignorant" is because the majority of us have not played Brawl yet. Of course we're going to believe things that he says over you because he has a lot more credibility, not only in Smash, but in video games in general. HAVE you gone through his video games analysis page? It's freaking ridiculous. He has algebraic formulas for some of his analysis. He broke that **** down to a science.

I don't care that you're stating your own opinion but everyone else is entitled to have his or her own opinion and you don't have to be such a hater! =P

If you believe he has more credibility regarding a game he has barely any experience to build opinions upon, then you're just being a stupid tool, just like most of this community.

 

[dirty_rice88]

I don't personally believe anything anybody says until I experience it, but I was just saying that I can understand why people would give m2k more credibility than some other random person. Dude no reason to get feisty! geesh. Chillax dude!

 

[BentoBox]

I'll jack your bike.

 

[dirty_rice88]

You can jack my bike as I jack your car! (I don't have a bike, good luck)

 

[User33]

I think that before any of this "no combo" talk can be taken seriously, it needs to be tried on a human opponent.

Using computers as a basis means nothing.

 

[rubiksfriend]

M2K was the original base of knowledge for Melee. He tested almost every aspect of that game, and it finally payed off. Don't say crap like that.

 

[User33]

And there's no way for this to be proven unless it's actually tried against a human. I don't care what he did for Melee, he has no proof that this works on a human. If it so happens that only computers can do this and we take it as fact that it can't be done with humans, then everyone would be ignorant.

 

[BentoBox]

And what does any of that change when it comes to brawl? Respect is due accordingly, but I don't go blindingly preach someone else's words because he built up a reputation in an adjacent domain.

 

[User33]

Exactly. I respect M2K for everything he's done for Melee, but blindly believing everything he says for an entirely new game is ignorant. I'm not saying M2K can't be right, I'm saying it has to be proven to work on a human before we can accept it as fact.

 

[Ryan-K]

You're just a hater! =P The reason why most of the smash community is "ignorant" is because the majority of us have not played Brawl yet. Of course we're going to believe things that he says over you because he has a lot more credibility, not only in Smash, but in video games in general. HAVE you gone through his video games analysis page? It's freaking ridiculous. He has algebraic formulas for some of his analysis. He broke that **** down to a science.

I don't care that you're stating your own opinion but everyone else is entitled to have his or her own opinion and you don't have to be such a hater! =P

I wasn't talking in terms of brawl again, I was talking about melee because people have the impression that disagreeing with a big name means you don't know who they are.

Right sorry for the misunderstanding and confusing wording witchking

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Exactly. I respect M2K for everything he's done for Melee, but blindly believing everything he says for an entirely new game is ignorant. I'm not saying M2K can't be right, I'm saying it has to be proven to work on a human before we can accept it as fact.

You do not need a human to prove that combos are nearly nonexistant. In fact, CPUs are better because if a CPU can do it (break out of a combo) a human definitely can, and CPU's break out of imporperly done combos very well.

If you can't combo a CPU, then there's no way in hell you can combo a human, since they actually DI as well, whereas CPU's don't.

 

[User33]

Or Nintendo could of made it so Level 9s had properties that regular people couldn't do. They do it in every other game, I don't see why they wouldn't do it in this game.

 

[dirty_rice88]

I don't think we're argueing enough.

 

[Mew2King]

i doubt computers would be given special abilities like that, still, humans DO air dodge between marths F throw f smash, and grab me. lord knight does that to me so now i have to F throw into charged f smash or forward B combo or someting

nothings truely reliable

if this game is to be competitive, it should be more skillbased. Luck and skill should not go hand in hand or rather, luck should be minimized whenever possible.

best chance for brawl (it will succeed anyway only due to its MASS popularity) is to have patches or updates to the game to make it better for competitive purposes. Melee had 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and PAL, to fix up the game. Why can't brawl have something like that, although they would have to make great changes, and if Sakurai is in charge of that, there's no much hope, but I don't feel the game is very good as a competitive fighter as it is when you compare it to the potential we know melee has.

The game is going to "evolve" more than melee most likely, due to the fact that tons play it and it's online, but that doesn't mean it has more COMPETITIVE POTENTIAL

 

[Ryan-K]

I am not saying it does or doesnt have more competitive potential but I am disagreeing with how you seem to think it's impossible to do like anything when that is hardly the case.

 

[rubiksfriend]

He didn't say or imply that it is impossible to "do like anything", just impossible to perform techniques which lend themselves to increased speed and, therefore, competitiveness. The game was specifically targeted at new players. Read "Iwata Asks". http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/ssbb/vol1_page1.jsp

 

[Hydde]

i doubt computers would be given special abilities like that, still, humans DO air dodge between marths F throw f smash, and grab me. lord knight does that to me so now i have to F throw into charged f smash or forward B combo or someting

nothings truely reliable

if this game is to be competitive, it should be more skillbased. Luck and skill should not go hand in hand or rather, luck should be minimized whenever possible.

best chance for brawl (it will succeed anyway only due to its MASS popularity) is to have patches or updates to the game to make it better for competitive purposes. Melee had 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and PAL, to fix up the game. Why can't brawl have something like that, although they would have to make great changes, and if Sakurai is in charge of that, there's no much hope, but I don't feel the game is very good as a competitive fighter as it is when you compare it to the potential we know melee has.

The game is going to "evolve" more than melee most likely, due to the fact that tons play it and it's online, but that doesn't mean it has more COMPETITIVE POTENTIAL

well m2k...and what about trying to play the game in a different way?. Im referring to that little example you gave with marth... the Fthrow difference. Well it seems we will have now to play marth for exmaple, in a total different way... because it seems the marth of old is just too similar but a the same time too different from the new marth.

Hylian made a great post in the general discussion topic about the samus from melee and the one from brawl. He agrees with you on something; that the games now is focused on spacing and predicting rather than comboing and speed pressuring.

Im very sure brawl will not be as flashy as melee.... but maybe, just maybe if we try to find another exiciting and comeptitive way to play it...


the patches... well i think they are a better idea than just releasing different ciopies of brawl...also in that way when people play online.. they will all have the same version... otherwise online play will just not work in a lot of cases.

 

[peachori]

whereas competitive melee relied heavily on thinking AND execution, it seems as though competitive brawl will only rely heavily on thinking. execution has been dumbed down by virtue of actually making things easier and also by slowing the game speed severely.

i think a lot of people are mistakenly thinking that in brawl you have to think more, when in reality you just don't have to think as fast; thinking quickly does not necessitate thinking less.

i'm willing to give the game more time though.

 

[Irow]

Peachori, I'm sorry, but Brawl does take more thinking to play.

You can't just rack up damage with set combos now, you have to strike at good moments. And like chess, your mind has to be ahead of your opponent. I have no problem with Brawl being more cerebral.

 

[BentoBox]

The game is now more about spacing and patience and its suddenly ruined? oh noes!? How many fighters have you played m2k?

 

[mario-man]

umm guys, the reason Melee was such a good game competetively is because it was DIFFERENT from other fighters. It was different in speed and stuff like that. You are trying to morph Brawl/any smash game into a Street Fighter or DoA or something. This is Smash Bros. NOT Street Fighter. It is deifferent. If you want a slow game wich requires practically no tech skill, go play that, or, apparently, you have a new choice in Brawl. (hopefully wrong on that part)