M2K stuff about Marth (big update first post)

[memphischains]

It sure as hell isn't. What does that prove?

that is shouldn't be treated like it is

 

[GreenKirby]

you, however, are just ignorant.

marth is not cheap, at all, his metagame has just been more developed than most characters.
there are more places to find out abotu more things about marth, than say, kirby. your name entails that you like to use kirby, wether or not you acually use kirby is besides the point but a great example. the average marth player is better than the average kirby player. not because of tiers, but because more people learned the stregnths of marth because more people took the time to develope marths mtea game.

there are more marth players and kirby plays, not a proven fact, but a strong assumption. tell me if you disagree. if anyone does at all.



In short, do everyone a favor and never speak agian until you understand whats going on

So you mean to tell me that a character who's naturally better than most of the other characters is NOT cheap? BTW, I don't cheap as in one simple attack does 50% damage.

And I like how you tell me to shut up because I wrong about one **** thing.

 

[bluezaft]

So, GreenKirby, your definition of cheap is someone who plays a better character than you? If you play the character your name suggests then EVERYONE is cheap.

memphischains: the thing is, Melee was amazing. Speaking as someone who doesn't like many video games at all, and has never liked a fighting game besides Melee, I'm disappointed in Brawl. It's a whole new game and I was expecting that, but that doesn't mean it's BETTER. It looks boring, and though I'll give it a try of course, I'll probably just end up considering it "another video game." We all know it's a different game. That doesn't mean it's FUN. Having the word "Smash" in the title does not automatically make it a fun game.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

Marth in melee was really unfair such as fox and shiek were too


In melee marth had longrange, speed, good dmg, greatstun(meaning you can combo),Great grab combos,Mabye the best Edge guard game,he could take a hit and give one right back with a spamable Fsmash Fair Dair Uair Dtilt.

he was easily cheap all this was

much easier to do then Fox cheap attacks as well.

 

[Aesir]

Hal should have developed brawl, not nintendo it's self... thats where the problem is....>_>

 

[GreenKirby]

Hal should have developed brawl, not nintendo it's self... thats where the problem is....>_>

Do you ever shut up? This even the sub forum to talk about that. Geez

So, GreenKirby, your definition of cheap is someone who plays a better character than you? If you play the character your name suggests then EVERYONE is cheap.

Obviously, it depends on the Smash game. lol

Anyway, I don't just main Kirby for goodness sakes. I have other mains high on the tier list. But my problem is that why buff an already good character? It makes no sense whatsoever. Especially when the other characters as good as Marth was are nerfed.

 

[memphischains]

So, GreenKirby, your definition of cheap is someone who plays a better character than you? If you play the character your name suggests then EVERYONE is cheap.

memphischains: the thing is, Melee was amazing. Speaking as someone who doesn't like many video games at all, and has never liked a fighting game besides Melee, I'm disappointed in Brawl. It's a whole new game and I was expecting that, but that doesn't mean it's BETTER. It looks boring, and though I'll give it a try of course, I'll probably just end up considering it "another video game." We all know it's a different game. That doesn't mean it's FUN. Having the word "Smash" in the title does not automatically make it a fun game.

i totally agree with you. it havent said it but it LOOKS disapointing to me too, but thats what i thought about melee until t really started to develope. i thought i would never stop playing smash 64 for melee, but i learned that you can't judge a book by its cover. we reAlly just need to wait likemost of us did for melee.

 

[thumbswayup]

we can all agree that when a character gets hit it makes sense for him to get knocked back. hence the brilliance of melee. but when characters violate this rule, it no longer is a game of skill. it'll be just running into each other and hoping you knock him back further than he knocks you. hit and run. any noob can do this. brawl tournys are decided by luck.

 

[memphischains]

ok, i'm going to say this one last time...
(and prove me wrong if i'm way off with viable proof)

we really need to wait for the game to develope before we can say that this game is really based on luck.
yes, i do agree, by the looks of things that is true to a point.
but we all had our skeptics about melee at around the same time, and look at what the game turned out to be.

just because m2k says one thing about one character does not mean we should judge the game entirely, HOWEVER, it is a viable opinion that should be greatly considered WHEN COMPARING TO MELEE because that is what was asked of him. he answered our question with his truthful opinion.

does that make sense?

 

[icraq]

I consider Brawl competitive.
If competition means speed, then Melee would be in turbo mode.
If competition means combos, then explain Street Fighter 2.
Don't all jump on the same bandwagon just because someone said so.

 

[GreenKirby]

ok, i'm going to say this one last time...
(and prove me wrong if i'm way off with viable proof)

we really need to wait for the game to develope before we can say that this game is really based on luck.
yes, i do agree, by the looks of things that is true to a point.
but we all had our skeptics about melee at around the same time, and look at what the game turned out to be.

just because m2k says one thing about one character does not mean we should judge the game entirely, HOWEVER, it is a viable opinion that should be greatly considered WHEN COMPARING TO MELEE because that is what was asked of him. he answered our question with his truthful opinion.

does that make sense?

Yes it make sense. But sense isn't a common trait among humans anymore. And while I do respect a pro like M2K, he went overboard and crazy and started an online petition to put wavedashing back in Brawl. So as far as the M2K's opinion on Brawl, I don't really take it to heart.

But that's just me though.

 

[thumbswayup]

he started an online petition to put wavedashing back in brawl? when was this?

 

[GreenKirby]

Back at EforAll in October when we first found out that it was gone.

 

[thumbswayup]

that's crazy. though im more pissed that they took out the L cancel. nintendo can go **** themselves.

 

[memphischains]

i bet well find new techs like these in brawl. its a new game. dont stress over melee. if you dont like it, then im sure there will still be many melee players who didnt change over.

its all good

 

[PR3Y11]

this is awesome info thanks M2K =]
and that sucks that you wont be able to play online =( even though you'd probably sandbag me and i'd still get ***** ... it would have been a really cool experience to play you

hope you update with more info as you find it

*subscribed*!

 

[Aesir]

Do you ever shut up? This even the sub forum to talk about that. Geez

No I don't because it's a valid point...>_>

When Hal Made smash it was good.

Nintendo makes brawl, so far it's nothing great. x_x

 

[BentoBox]

Aesir, shut up. Smash's motto has always been about intuitive gameplay which is why they decided to remove all that crap your cherished. The extent to which we pushed ssbm were not foreseen by the developers, so you can't simply state that they ruined the game by not leaving in something they didn't want in the first place. And the fact that it might not have a as big tourney scene does't mean **** when the series were never cattered to competitive players in the first place. Get your head out of your buttocks and quit posting stupid ****.

Pretty Please.

Yes, the game's engine can't be abused to the same extent, we already know that.
Yes, you can foresee years of metagame after 2 weeks, you keep telling yourself that.

 

[Aesir]

They didn't intend for? Lol

This is like talk I would expect from scrubs LOL.

l-canceling was intended, maybe not in 64 but in melee it was.

edit: I'm not dising the games metagame I know it's still developing I'm saying it's ******** to remove something like l-canceling. it just makes the faster characters better then the slower characters again.

 

[memphischains]

Yes, you can foresee years of metagame after 2 weeks, you keep telling yourself that.

everyone thinks it before we even get the american version.

apperently people of SWF > brawl & nintendo

 

[BentoBox]

They didn't intend for? Lol

This is like talk I would expect from scrubs LOL.

l-canceling was intended, maybe not in 64 but in melee it was.

edit: I'm not dising the games metagame I know it's still developing I'm saying it's ******** to remove something like l-canceling. it just makes the faster characters better then the slower characters again.

I was clearly refering to WDing. I don't consider l-cancelling an adv tech but rather a necessity (is there really an instance where you thought ''oh what about failing to l-c as a mindgame!''), at least it was in SSBM. A technical barrier is all it was to me. Regardless, some moves could not be spammed as much in ssbm even with l-c, in SSBB you'll simply have to be more cautious about whatever aerial it is you intend to spam. But that must just require too much brain power.

 

[verditude]

M2K, I have 1 question. Have any HUMAN players been able to interrupt your combos to the same extent the CPU has? If not, (it's a long shot but) Nintendo has been known to improve their AI - make the game challenging - not by actually making it smarter, but by giving it hax. Like in Pokemon D/P, the Battle Tower pokemon had increased critical hit rates, increased accuracy on moves, etc. The level 9's may just have reduced hitstun overall. This is somewhat likely because Nintendo, not HAL, is developing Brawl.

 

[Aesir]

in SSBB you'll simply have to be more cautious about whatever aerial it is you intend to spam. But that must just require too much brain power.

^ Lol you made a funny.

 

[BentoBox]

I'm that good ya.

 

[memphischains]

wheres m2k to imput god dammit

 

[knightpraetor]

I just wanted to make some short statements...first of all, while it is possible to have a great game without true combos or hitstun..i would have preferred leaving some sort of degrading hit stun in so that combos went neither too long or too short... If they wanted us to have fun reading then they have to make DI have a significant effect, but still allow the attacking char to have a choice and sufficient time to cover at least one spot from teh combo...

hopefully brawl will have a decent amount of this "airchasing" (i hesitate to call it comboing since it doesn't fit the melee definition of the word)...

unfortunately i've seen a lot of cases where hitting the opponent appears to just lead to reset rather than an advantageous position for the attacker at all.. this takes depth out of the game

also, even without hit stun there will be still be calculations about what the opponent will do next..which hopefully will lend itself to the fun in brawl..however, without hit stun it will be more highly based on comparing priorities as someone mentioned earlier...personally i think priority is a boring way to make a game...but the lack of a fast ground game (compared to melee) will mean that pressuring space by movement alone will be much harder, so i expect that most "combos" will be about priority...

 

[Cojiro]

ok, i'm going to say this one last time...
(and prove me wrong if i'm way off with viable proof)

we really need to wait for the game to develope before we can say that this game is really based on luck.
yes, i do agree, by the looks of things that is true to a point.
but we all had our skeptics about melee at around the same time, and look at what the game turned out to be.

I don't know how many times I've tried to raise this point. Thank you.

You CANNOT compare a fully-developed metagame (melee) to something out for less than a month.

Brawl may be less trigger-happy than melee, but no-one can make the judgment that is now 'just a luck-based party game' yet.

I applaud all the competitive people for rushing to test the limits of Brawl. Keep it up, and good things will result.

 

[Mr.C]

Just pick Marth and bait jumps.

Then you're automatically amazing. Thats how easy Brawl is, lol. Still fun as chit though :]

 

[.kR0]

If you care so much about the competitive scene, go play melee while the rest of the world plays Brawl.

 

[rubiksfriend]

I don't find Brawl as appealing due to a lack of competitiveness which makes Melee and Orig. fun.

 

[Mr.C]

If you care so much about the competitive scene, go play melee while the rest of the world plays Brawl.

You have a tiny peenis. You also suck at Smash Brothers.

 

[mario-man]

MARIO MAN; WHY YOU GATTA HATE

yes you can. it just has to be at a different approach. attacks all at once are combos. pojectile plus quick dash attack plus SH dair is a combo that would work according to what ive seen. and thats just an example

Umm, I'm not hating, just stating. You are beginning to make yourself look dumb and I don't want that to happen ok. Think it through in your head, if there is no hitstun, then there is no way to follow up the move before the person has time to recover. This means that combos are virtually IMPOSSIBLE, because a combo is when you attack a person multiple times without giving them a chance to recover from them. No hitstun = no combos

Reduced hit stun makes it easier to escape practical combos. As of now, chaining hits is now based more on priority, hitboxes, frames and mind games than hit stun. It's more like a traditional fighter, where you won't usually do a ton of damage through a single string of guaranteed hits.



It's still too early to determine that there are "no" combos in the game.

Read above^^ Also, I will give you this: combos ARE in the game IF you count those worthless n00by ones like Metaknight's spammable slash attack. If you count those(which require NO skill at all to perform) then there are combos in Brawl.

Cause clearly, a tournament scene that happened because the game was rushed is something to be proud of.

It sure as heck beats the one that will happen as a result of buying more time and NOT rushing it out.

marth is not cheap, at all, his metagame has just been more developed than most characters.
there are more places to find out abotu more things about marth, than say, kirby. your name entails that you like to use kirby, wether or not you acually use kirby is besides the point but a great example. the average marth player is better than the average kirby player. not because of tiers, but because more people learned the stregnths of marth because more people took the time to develope marths mtea game.

there are more marth players and kirby plays, not a proven fact, but a strong assumption. tell me if you disagree. if anyone does at all.

In short, do everyone a favor and never speak agian until you understand whats going on

You're again making yourself look dumb which, again, I don't want to see anything negative about anybody so I don't want to see anyone looking dumb.

Granted, there are SOME characters in Melee that were not fully discovered, but Kirby is not one of them. Kirby SUCKS TO THE MAX in Melee!! There is not much else you can discover about Kirby.

 

[Ryan-K]

Um there is hitstun in brawl and you can still combo but you just have to space them out and actually know your moves -_-

Just because marth is stupidly good at breaking combos doesnt mean its impossible to combo

 

[Mew2King]

ya there's combos if you don't get out of them, but by playing level 9s we can see how little the stun time really is, and that they technically don't combo at all, people just think they can't get out and/or suck to much too (unless level 9 computers do some trick we don't know about, which I'm HOPING IS THE CASE, but is highly unlikely)

no one said there wasn't hit stun, but i did uair against a marth in a ditto and he downaired me while he was being hit upwards. it's extremely little stun

 

[mario-man]

Um there is hitstun in brawl and you can still combo but you just have to space them out and actually know your moves -_-

Just because marth is stupidly good at breaking combos doesnt mean its impossible to combo

Are you sure it's actual combos, and not just the other player not knowing the game enough to know when the (very minute) hitstun is over. Go into training mode and check that, cuz I think M2K would know if there was hitstun or not. Maybe not, but I would like to think so after all those tournaments he's been to.

EDIT: nvm. M2K beat me out.

 

[Ryan-K]

Level 9s do the same **** in melee and break combos and powershield perfectly or a majority of the time as I am very sure you are aware, and I think they wiggle but Im not sure so maybe you should answer that.

I don't care how good m2k is at melee I'm not ignorant like a majority of the ****ing brawl boards. Yes he probably was better starting off at brawl than most melee players "just cuz"and while in terms of analysis i think he is held in slightly higher regard but in terms of opinion I don't give a ****.

Also why are people saying there is no hitstun in brawl if there was none then you would go flying in a neutral position and could react at anytime but there is at least a little and he didnt even say there was no hitstun in brawl. Alot of moves have noticably low hitstun but you can still combo in brawl it's just wierder. I played the game so don't just write me off as someone watching videos all day.

 

[mario-man]

I played the game so don't just write me off as someone watching videos all day.

No, I know you have played the game. That's why I asked if you were sure that it was not just the person not knowing when to react.

Just assuming that there is enough hitstun to combo, then this game is waaaaaayyy unbalanced. If that's the case then any character with a move that actually can come out quick enough to be auto-canceled (thus leading into a longer combo string) will TOTALLY DOMINATE this game HANDS DOWN. If that's the case, then I'd still rather play Melee, cuz at least the slower characters had some chance to win. If Brawl is like that, then there won't be much hope for any slow characters which really sucks. (unless they have at least one aerial that can come out quickly enough to be auto-canceled)

 

[TuRk E]

Well I got into competitive smash too late to learn things like wavedashing so these "downfalls" to brawl dont seem to be that bad. If anything w/out these tactics the better player should truly win. But thats just my opinion plz dont flame. It would also help if someone could explain to me what is wrong with my assumption if anything.

 

[mario-man]

you won't get flamed, but you will alot of people trying to persuade you differently. I could try myself but I'm tired of doing it.

 

[dirty_rice88]

Well perhaps we have to change the way we play the game competitively. Have you experimented with items yet? Maybe we can turn certain items on for competitive matches. There might be combos and stuff that we can do with items.

2v2 looks like it will be good for competitive play. Working well as a team is always difficult, lol. I might be wrong.

Btw, I'm not saying we should turn on certain items, but i'm just trying to stress that we may have to change how we play smash competitively.