Mew2King
King of the Mews
This thread was originally called M2K combo, which was short hop double fair, forward B B B downB, into tech chase with Fair to tipper F smash, but later I learned that doesn't work cuz of super small stun time, so I made this thread about random Marth stuff you guys can read. So don't even bother trying it cuz it only worked like the 2nd hour I had the game.
I like to do forward B B B upB at 0, then chase their double jump with full jump tipper fairs off the level and go wayyyyy off then edge hog their up B vs some chars. It's a good way to make them waste their jump and aggressively edge guard/gimp them. However, this only works if you're close range, otherwise they are able to DI away from the forward B combo and the last hit won't hit.
Ken combo doesn't work on good people at all, if it does they messed up, it doesn't combo at all though. The only "legit" way it can work is to dair them after they air dodge, otherwise it's escapable.
combos hardly exist in brawl compared to melee
My favorite thing to do at low % is to double jump around spacing myself, then land on them (not literally) and fair to forward B combos at low % cuz they slide away from the fair a bit you can just run at them and forward B combo. That's by far marth's best combo at low %. F throw F smash and down throw F smash in my experience usually tippers them at the edge, although it's not really a legit combo and requires them to not DI good and when the game evolves people might start escaping it a lot.
In teams I like to hope they full jump while my teammate attacks low. That way they are pressuring them from below, and I'm pressuring them from above, hitting them with Fairs any time they jump. I also like to up B out of shield a lot in teams, but that's only good if my teammate protects me as I'm landing, but it does hit them away and makes me invincible frames 1-5 as I'm doing it and that's good.
A good strat I found with marth is to run at them, short hop nair in place, then pull backwards so they can't easily punish you. Nair hits harder and does 15% now (with both hits tipped) instead of SSBMs 13%. It also still autocancels if you nair right after you jump.
Marths 2nd hit of Nair tippered is his strongest aerial now, killing another Marth with no DI in the middle of FD on training mode at 107%, while Bair kills at 122% (F smash tip at 72, F smash center hit at 129). This is all damage before the attack, so tipper F smash at 72 means they die at 91.
Up B is really far reaching now, and Up B out of shield is SUPER good in Brawl, and it's power is only extremely slightly less than F smash non tip.
Marths Grabs are TERRIBLE compared to before, but strangely still extremely useful. Dash grab has crap range, standing grab has so so range. Shield grabbing is too good now, with like no lag in them at all. Tapping R produces the Shield really quick, and the total time of it is really small so you can do other moves like shield cancel into an F smash or something else if you want, this is useful with other characters too. Grab combos hardly exist, it's mostly just for putting them in better situations that you want them in, along with chip damage. I tried to F throw F smash my friends Ike, and he air dodged through it and grabbed me. So corney. Stun time hardly exists in Brawl, you can learn this by playing level 9s. They recover right away from stuff, so Marth dittos are frusturating now, and are all about double jumping and spacing.
You can also run towards them, then after running towards them, try to dash the opposite way, and as you lag in your turning around animation, you can short hop bair them with the momentum of running toward them. I haven't really experimented with the usefulness of this, but you can do it. This was a result of sloppy programming.
Dash attack hits them away now instead of up, it can be useful depending on the situation.
Jab is worse, but not awful.
Up Smash is WAYYYYY better and has a wide hitbox now.
Down Smash is good, it has a lot of range and because of that range and speed it's really good; I find myself using it a lot to tech chase with.
F Smash is harder to tipper with, and very slightly less damage power than Melee, (19% tip). But it's harder hitting if you connect.
Uair is good, and kills at the top of the stage well
Fair is super spammable, probably your most used Marth move, and tipper Fairs are really good and, contrary to melee, hit at steep horizontal angles now, and if you spam Fairs way off stage you can gimp them.
Nair is super good and super strong now.
Bair is super strong too, and also has good range.
Dair sucks now, but isn't completely useless, but it's worse than before, and it's easiest to spike by hitting with the top-back part of it. I meteor cancelled it though. Don't try using this move to gimp people much if at all, because spamming Fairs way off stage is much more useful.
F tilt is the same, Down tilt is almost as good as before, Up tilt is nerfed but still extremely useful.
B is a really long stab, and charging it in air can make you go really far. Using this in air you can even go under Battlefield if you do it right (double jump and Up B to the other side).
Forward B is super broken, I like doing the upwards combo at low % because they jump, and I can follow up with jumping at them and doing a lot of Fairs off stage to gimp them hopefully. Downwards combo for damage, and neutral B combo for reliability. If I mess up and do it too fast, or know they will block it all, then after 1 or 2 hits of Forward B on their shield I immediately do Shield Breaker and break their shield, then I charge a tipper shield breaker on them while they are stunned. In this game you can hit them even as they are falling, but that's useless unless it's teams as you'd want to hit them with a charged powerful move instead. Level 9 computer Marth in a Marth ditto, actually Up Bd me out of my rapid downwards stabs. HOW CORNEY IS THAT!?!?
Up B out of shield is broken, like I already stated, and has MASSIVE recovery range this time. Reverse up B only hits on one side now, and this move will be used often out of shield, I cannot stress how often this will be used enough. Short hop Bair out of shield is useful too, for knockback, and if you try to short hop Dair out of shield, you can do up to 14%, but it's not as useful as in melee due to less stun time and super lag from landing.
Down B is SUPER broken now, it does 8% or 1.1 times the attack power, and hits them way further than before, and still lasts a really long time and doesn't lag much. BROOOOOKENNNNNNN. I find myself doing this out of shield a lot, unless i want to roll, this is useful when you are in a jam or random other scenarios this can be used.
Ledge jump is super good in this game, if you do it right you can do a ledge jump (X or Y from the ledge is what I use, I prefer X but many use Y) and an INVINCIBLE Fair for at least 1 frame according to my tests, so this will easily be the most common way to get back from being ledge guarded, is by ledge jumping. If they up B onto the stage after you edge hog in Marth dittos (assuming you expect them to go for the ledge but they overshoot and land back on the stage) a good strategy I use is to ledge jump and Dair, where either the Dair will hit them back off the stage or do 14% to them and have them at the ledge instead of you, both are good. You can also ledge jump into air dodge if you want, although I prefer attacking with aerials or counter right away. Other ledge options are good from time to time, but ledge jump is the best and most lagless option you have in this game, complete opposite of SSBM.
King told me if you air dodge into the ground (and "invincible land" basically, or rather, as long as you are in your air dodge animation as you do it) then that's the only way to buffer rolls or dodges. Buffering means to use the C stick and be holding C down or C left/right and then automatically (and ASAP) do a roll or dodge. This might potentially be useful, although I haven't done anything with it yet.
This game is all about spacing, and aggressive edge guarding, for the most part.
I'll be terrible on Wifi don't waste your time with me, I have DSL so I'll lag too much on my side to be any competition to you players. If you wanna help me get FiOS internet then please call Verizon and tell them that you want FiOS in Cinnaminson New Jersey, because that's where I live and that's my best chance at having good online with everyone.
Lastly, and most importantly, my favorite thing to do in Brawl. If you press X on their head, you can footstool jump them, (you can do this up to 4 times before landing, going less high each time, and also if you hold X instead of tap it you jump higher), so after edge hogging people with Marth, I like to drop down really low then footstool jump them for no reason but to be funny. This is quite possibly the best thing in the game for hilarity purposes. They get their jump back when you footstool them though. New teams strategy????
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marth is invincible the first 5 (maybe 6) frames of his up B, while in SSBM it was only frame 5 you were invincible
what's this mean? UP B IS MARTHS NEW SHINE
here's another thing I did, some basic frames test for moves 10 frames or slower. Of all the moves I've tested, Forward B is faster, Forward Tilt is 1 frame slower and Down Smash is 1 frame slower, compared to SSBM. Here's some basic tests I spent an hour making
Fair - 4
Uair - 5
Nair - 6
Dair - 6
Bair - 7
U tilt - 6
D tilt - 7
F tilt - 8
D smash - 6
F smash - 10
U smash - probably 12 or 13 like SSBM
Forward B - 4
Up B - 5 (but now you are invincible frames 1 2 3 4 and 5, and possibly even 6 although I'm not sure on that, where as in melee you were only invincible ON frame 5, making up B marth's new SHINE)
Down B - 5
B - didn't test, but it's slower than his other standard moves
Dash attack - didn't test, but if I had to make an educated guesstimate I'd say 13
Jab - 4
Grab - 6 (before it was 7, but it's still worse in like every way)
this is all I tested so far, just wanna give that quick update for those curious.
most moves were the same exact starting time as in SSBM, just want to clear that up. To do frame tests I stand 2 characters next to each other, hold A or tilt A or something similar on both controller, then unpause, and if they are the same speed then they either clash usually or both guys get hit. If I think they are 1 frame apart, I stand them next to each other, do the move 1 frame before pausing (I keep redoing it until I'm sure it's only 1 frame difference) then unpause and they should probably collide. This is the most basic process of doing frame tests, and having a comparison chart like I did in SSBM was very useful for testing other things as well. I don't care as much anymore now though.
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2 new things about marth
1) after edge hogging (make sure you grab the ledge so you use invincibility frames just before they touch you so that you don't have to roll, as rolling won't edge hog anymore), and you see them land on the stage, your best option is to Up B them (other moves work, I often use Nair for damage and easiness, but Up B is stronger for killing them in this situation if you can trick their DI). But most of the time, reverse up B will be better, meaning you should drop from the ledge, then double jump right away so you move onto the stage past them, and before landing do an aerial reverse up B. Basically just edge hog, then ledge drop + double jump reverse up B them.
2) when you're on the ledge, and you wanna press back to let go of the ledge and drop off to double jump Bair them way off, the best thing to do is, right after pressing back (to let go of the ledge), press forward C. This way, you do your Fair move, but by doing this you're horizontal aerial movement speed (and distance) is much greater. Should you not do this, you will fall at a steep angle after letting go of the ledge, so this is very useful. So all you have to do is make sure you Fair (any aerial works, Fair has the shortest total time) so that you move faster horizontally in the air.
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Marth's shield is amazingly useful now
he can up B out of shield as you all know, which makes you invincible right away frames 1-5, but he can also block moves then up smash out of shield
or, you don't even have to up smash out of shield, you can just block their attack, then unblock, and do a running up smash (besides, running up smashes are so easy now, you just press up C and it does it).
it does so much damage, for the weak up smash it does 18.xx % and strong hit is like 21.xx%, (so 20 on average) altho i coulda sworn I got a 22 or 23%er before i might have accidentally charged it or something, i don't know, but anyway it's really damaging, fast, doesn't lag much, and is extremely useful especially since spamming fairs makes them really weak.
if they are like an Ike, and they space a Fair on your shield, then do Shield Cancel into running forward B combo, you can always get ike fast enough as far as I know.
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It's fun to slowly walk away from people near the edge as they try to ledge camp, then when they think they are far enough away to jump back on safely, do a running up smash at the ledge. It covers a lot of range and does good damage, so even if you do get hit and this doesn't work for you, it's still not a very big punishment.
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I like tech chasing with Down Smash, and I like punishing ppl that I know are going to roll away with Forward B combo. Also, forward B combo is good after you shield cancel moves like Ike's Fair.
I like to do forward B B B upB at 0, then chase their double jump with full jump tipper fairs off the level and go wayyyyy off then edge hog their up B vs some chars. It's a good way to make them waste their jump and aggressively edge guard/gimp them. However, this only works if you're close range, otherwise they are able to DI away from the forward B combo and the last hit won't hit.
Ken combo doesn't work on good people at all, if it does they messed up, it doesn't combo at all though. The only "legit" way it can work is to dair them after they air dodge, otherwise it's escapable.
combos hardly exist in brawl compared to melee
My favorite thing to do at low % is to double jump around spacing myself, then land on them (not literally) and fair to forward B combos at low % cuz they slide away from the fair a bit you can just run at them and forward B combo. That's by far marth's best combo at low %. F throw F smash and down throw F smash in my experience usually tippers them at the edge, although it's not really a legit combo and requires them to not DI good and when the game evolves people might start escaping it a lot.
In teams I like to hope they full jump while my teammate attacks low. That way they are pressuring them from below, and I'm pressuring them from above, hitting them with Fairs any time they jump. I also like to up B out of shield a lot in teams, but that's only good if my teammate protects me as I'm landing, but it does hit them away and makes me invincible frames 1-5 as I'm doing it and that's good.
A good strat I found with marth is to run at them, short hop nair in place, then pull backwards so they can't easily punish you. Nair hits harder and does 15% now (with both hits tipped) instead of SSBMs 13%. It also still autocancels if you nair right after you jump.
Marths 2nd hit of Nair tippered is his strongest aerial now, killing another Marth with no DI in the middle of FD on training mode at 107%, while Bair kills at 122% (F smash tip at 72, F smash center hit at 129). This is all damage before the attack, so tipper F smash at 72 means they die at 91.
Up B is really far reaching now, and Up B out of shield is SUPER good in Brawl, and it's power is only extremely slightly less than F smash non tip.
Marths Grabs are TERRIBLE compared to before, but strangely still extremely useful. Dash grab has crap range, standing grab has so so range. Shield grabbing is too good now, with like no lag in them at all. Tapping R produces the Shield really quick, and the total time of it is really small so you can do other moves like shield cancel into an F smash or something else if you want, this is useful with other characters too. Grab combos hardly exist, it's mostly just for putting them in better situations that you want them in, along with chip damage. I tried to F throw F smash my friends Ike, and he air dodged through it and grabbed me. So corney. Stun time hardly exists in Brawl, you can learn this by playing level 9s. They recover right away from stuff, so Marth dittos are frusturating now, and are all about double jumping and spacing.
You can also run towards them, then after running towards them, try to dash the opposite way, and as you lag in your turning around animation, you can short hop bair them with the momentum of running toward them. I haven't really experimented with the usefulness of this, but you can do it. This was a result of sloppy programming.
Dash attack hits them away now instead of up, it can be useful depending on the situation.
Jab is worse, but not awful.
Up Smash is WAYYYYY better and has a wide hitbox now.
Down Smash is good, it has a lot of range and because of that range and speed it's really good; I find myself using it a lot to tech chase with.
F Smash is harder to tipper with, and very slightly less damage power than Melee, (19% tip). But it's harder hitting if you connect.
Uair is good, and kills at the top of the stage well
Fair is super spammable, probably your most used Marth move, and tipper Fairs are really good and, contrary to melee, hit at steep horizontal angles now, and if you spam Fairs way off stage you can gimp them.
Nair is super good and super strong now.
Bair is super strong too, and also has good range.
Dair sucks now, but isn't completely useless, but it's worse than before, and it's easiest to spike by hitting with the top-back part of it. I meteor cancelled it though. Don't try using this move to gimp people much if at all, because spamming Fairs way off stage is much more useful.
F tilt is the same, Down tilt is almost as good as before, Up tilt is nerfed but still extremely useful.
B is a really long stab, and charging it in air can make you go really far. Using this in air you can even go under Battlefield if you do it right (double jump and Up B to the other side).
Forward B is super broken, I like doing the upwards combo at low % because they jump, and I can follow up with jumping at them and doing a lot of Fairs off stage to gimp them hopefully. Downwards combo for damage, and neutral B combo for reliability. If I mess up and do it too fast, or know they will block it all, then after 1 or 2 hits of Forward B on their shield I immediately do Shield Breaker and break their shield, then I charge a tipper shield breaker on them while they are stunned. In this game you can hit them even as they are falling, but that's useless unless it's teams as you'd want to hit them with a charged powerful move instead. Level 9 computer Marth in a Marth ditto, actually Up Bd me out of my rapid downwards stabs. HOW CORNEY IS THAT!?!?
Up B out of shield is broken, like I already stated, and has MASSIVE recovery range this time. Reverse up B only hits on one side now, and this move will be used often out of shield, I cannot stress how often this will be used enough. Short hop Bair out of shield is useful too, for knockback, and if you try to short hop Dair out of shield, you can do up to 14%, but it's not as useful as in melee due to less stun time and super lag from landing.
Down B is SUPER broken now, it does 8% or 1.1 times the attack power, and hits them way further than before, and still lasts a really long time and doesn't lag much. BROOOOOKENNNNNNN. I find myself doing this out of shield a lot, unless i want to roll, this is useful when you are in a jam or random other scenarios this can be used.
Ledge jump is super good in this game, if you do it right you can do a ledge jump (X or Y from the ledge is what I use, I prefer X but many use Y) and an INVINCIBLE Fair for at least 1 frame according to my tests, so this will easily be the most common way to get back from being ledge guarded, is by ledge jumping. If they up B onto the stage after you edge hog in Marth dittos (assuming you expect them to go for the ledge but they overshoot and land back on the stage) a good strategy I use is to ledge jump and Dair, where either the Dair will hit them back off the stage or do 14% to them and have them at the ledge instead of you, both are good. You can also ledge jump into air dodge if you want, although I prefer attacking with aerials or counter right away. Other ledge options are good from time to time, but ledge jump is the best and most lagless option you have in this game, complete opposite of SSBM.
King told me if you air dodge into the ground (and "invincible land" basically, or rather, as long as you are in your air dodge animation as you do it) then that's the only way to buffer rolls or dodges. Buffering means to use the C stick and be holding C down or C left/right and then automatically (and ASAP) do a roll or dodge. This might potentially be useful, although I haven't done anything with it yet.
This game is all about spacing, and aggressive edge guarding, for the most part.
I'll be terrible on Wifi don't waste your time with me, I have DSL so I'll lag too much on my side to be any competition to you players. If you wanna help me get FiOS internet then please call Verizon and tell them that you want FiOS in Cinnaminson New Jersey, because that's where I live and that's my best chance at having good online with everyone.
Lastly, and most importantly, my favorite thing to do in Brawl. If you press X on their head, you can footstool jump them, (you can do this up to 4 times before landing, going less high each time, and also if you hold X instead of tap it you jump higher), so after edge hogging people with Marth, I like to drop down really low then footstool jump them for no reason but to be funny. This is quite possibly the best thing in the game for hilarity purposes. They get their jump back when you footstool them though. New teams strategy????
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marth is invincible the first 5 (maybe 6) frames of his up B, while in SSBM it was only frame 5 you were invincible
what's this mean? UP B IS MARTHS NEW SHINE
here's another thing I did, some basic frames test for moves 10 frames or slower. Of all the moves I've tested, Forward B is faster, Forward Tilt is 1 frame slower and Down Smash is 1 frame slower, compared to SSBM. Here's some basic tests I spent an hour making
Fair - 4
Uair - 5
Nair - 6
Dair - 6
Bair - 7
U tilt - 6
D tilt - 7
F tilt - 8
D smash - 6
F smash - 10
U smash - probably 12 or 13 like SSBM
Forward B - 4
Up B - 5 (but now you are invincible frames 1 2 3 4 and 5, and possibly even 6 although I'm not sure on that, where as in melee you were only invincible ON frame 5, making up B marth's new SHINE)
Down B - 5
B - didn't test, but it's slower than his other standard moves
Dash attack - didn't test, but if I had to make an educated guesstimate I'd say 13
Jab - 4
Grab - 6 (before it was 7, but it's still worse in like every way)
this is all I tested so far, just wanna give that quick update for those curious.
most moves were the same exact starting time as in SSBM, just want to clear that up. To do frame tests I stand 2 characters next to each other, hold A or tilt A or something similar on both controller, then unpause, and if they are the same speed then they either clash usually or both guys get hit. If I think they are 1 frame apart, I stand them next to each other, do the move 1 frame before pausing (I keep redoing it until I'm sure it's only 1 frame difference) then unpause and they should probably collide. This is the most basic process of doing frame tests, and having a comparison chart like I did in SSBM was very useful for testing other things as well. I don't care as much anymore now though.
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2 new things about marth
1) after edge hogging (make sure you grab the ledge so you use invincibility frames just before they touch you so that you don't have to roll, as rolling won't edge hog anymore), and you see them land on the stage, your best option is to Up B them (other moves work, I often use Nair for damage and easiness, but Up B is stronger for killing them in this situation if you can trick their DI). But most of the time, reverse up B will be better, meaning you should drop from the ledge, then double jump right away so you move onto the stage past them, and before landing do an aerial reverse up B. Basically just edge hog, then ledge drop + double jump reverse up B them.
2) when you're on the ledge, and you wanna press back to let go of the ledge and drop off to double jump Bair them way off, the best thing to do is, right after pressing back (to let go of the ledge), press forward C. This way, you do your Fair move, but by doing this you're horizontal aerial movement speed (and distance) is much greater. Should you not do this, you will fall at a steep angle after letting go of the ledge, so this is very useful. So all you have to do is make sure you Fair (any aerial works, Fair has the shortest total time) so that you move faster horizontally in the air.
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Marth's shield is amazingly useful now
he can up B out of shield as you all know, which makes you invincible right away frames 1-5, but he can also block moves then up smash out of shield
or, you don't even have to up smash out of shield, you can just block their attack, then unblock, and do a running up smash (besides, running up smashes are so easy now, you just press up C and it does it).
it does so much damage, for the weak up smash it does 18.xx % and strong hit is like 21.xx%, (so 20 on average) altho i coulda sworn I got a 22 or 23%er before i might have accidentally charged it or something, i don't know, but anyway it's really damaging, fast, doesn't lag much, and is extremely useful especially since spamming fairs makes them really weak.
if they are like an Ike, and they space a Fair on your shield, then do Shield Cancel into running forward B combo, you can always get ike fast enough as far as I know.
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It's fun to slowly walk away from people near the edge as they try to ledge camp, then when they think they are far enough away to jump back on safely, do a running up smash at the ledge. It covers a lot of range and does good damage, so even if you do get hit and this doesn't work for you, it's still not a very big punishment.
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I like tech chasing with Down Smash, and I like punishing ppl that I know are going to roll away with Forward B combo. Also, forward B combo is good after you shield cancel moves like Ike's Fair.
i wish i could be like you
