M2K stuff about Marth (big update first post)

[NJzFinest]

Let's all just play Smash64 >_>
Combos ftw!

 

[thumbswayup]

it looks that way. ive said from the very beginning that brawl looks to not have even close to any competitive value. pretty obvious that they made it for a broader audience and for idiot kids just ****ing around with items. that gets old, fast. why cant we all just keep playing melee?

 

[dieslow]

because the community would do nothing but shrink.

 

[Mew2King]

i think big melee tourneys should still exist for at least a few more years, those are fun and the game is better for competitive purposes

 

[thumbswayup]

there should be duel tournys with both brawl and melee, that way everyone is happy. i sure as hell can guarantee there would plenty of people playing melee at these tournys.

 

[Dan2]

I played Melee competitively (if badly) for a few years. Now, I live in South Carolina, and we have a fairly small smash community. The only tournaments that were big and anywhere near close were in NC and GA.

Anyway, it got to the point that nobody among my friends could beat me, even though I would go to tournaments and get crushed.

When they heard that Brawl was coming out, most of them made it a point to look into it just so they would have a chance at beating me in a game of smash.

The way you guys make this sound, I think they're gonna get what they want. The lack of combos, ease of recovery, and reduction in speed, will all make the game easier on them.

I still expect that experienced players will win through mindgames and better understanding the game, but everyone else feels like they have a chance.

Despite being sorely disappointed in several of the aspects of Brawl that I hear about (and yes, I'm withholding true judgment until I play it), I think that Brawl is going to be a better game for me to play with my friends. I'm just not looking forward to gay waiting/stalling games.

The impression I have now, is that Brawl will not be as "good" as Melee in depth and competitiveness, but I believe that I will be playing more Brawl than I have been playing Melee recently.

Here's to hoping...

 

[mario-man]

i think big melee tourneys should still exist for at least a few more years, those are fun and the game is better for competitive purposes

OHHH YESSS!!!! I've been saying this for a few months!!(maybe you have too, I don't know lol)

Maybe Brawl won't develop very much and we do go back to Melee. I'd love it to be like: Melee is the tournament game, Brawl is the fun game but not necessarily only for parties. You play alot of Melee and practice the crap out of it still, and say, right after a tournament you can go home and play Brawl to release any stress from losing (if you didn't win of course, which would LIKELY not be an applicable statement in your case lol) I would love to still play Melee. It's so amazing.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Have to agree with M2K for the most part, but technically Melee wasn't designed to be competitive on purpose either. A lot of the mechanics and advanced techniques were programming oversights, and that's why they didn't make it into Brawl. Brawl was also designed to be a bit more casual friendly.

The same thing occurred in the Halo community when Halo 2 came out, and Halo 2 was still a fine competitive title and extremely successful as a tournament title. Granted, a number of glitches and exploits were found that did add competitive depth to the game eventually. For all we know, the same thing might happen with Brawl.

 

[memphischains]

in anycase, its become clear of a few things through this tread.

1. m2k isnt happy
2. njzfinest is a smash64 fan
3. brawl is indeed a different game.
m2k, no offence man, but i feel like your not treating brawl like brawl. i'm not exactly sure what your feelings were going into the game, or if you just trying to clarify marth is a melee sense in brawl, but its clear that your treating brawl like a new melee. brawl is not anything like melee in a technical sense. i apperciate the information your giving us, but we get it that marth isnt marth anymore. i really value your opinion, but not about when its based on anger. I dont know, it just might be me but i think you need to try and stray away from melee techs and find brawl techs. or, not even. i think this is a great example of why people just need to play the game. find, discovering, re-disconvering moves and **** is awsome, but just play. this post wasnt a bash on you, in no way is it. all i'm saying is try the game from the other side of the fence man, the grass is always greener.


wether or not you fully read the post, take it in with a grain of salt.

 

[mario-man]

that is true, but you'll see that a major reason why we think that (atleast it appears this way) is because of the things that are NOT in. Yeah, we may find some thechnique where you can actually auto sweetspot Falcon's knee or something, but what we're concerened about, is what is OUT of Brawl that should not be, like comboing for example. Comboing is the perfect show of skill both mentally and technically on a competetive level.

 

[memphischains]

i think we just havent found out a way to do it, using the same combo moves cleary is not going to work, so try things that didn't work in melee i guess. thats what one of the things i'm trying to say anyway. i haven't played brawl myself, so i guess that makes things a little harder to explain or even know, but from everything ive read and watched people are tyring to play melee and not brawl.

the new things in brawl will make up for the things not in brawl. does that make sense?
its wayyyyyyyyy to early to be looking to be looking at a competetive brawl. non the less, there have already been tourneys. rewind to melee. look at the history of everything. we can't go forward unless we know our past.

a baby cant drive, but a adult can crawl. yes? no?

 

[Chexr]

I think brawl will be more competitive once people develop the right strategy and feeling for the game. If people have a campy defensive style the games going to be real ****ty, it was in melee too. Once people start playing aggressive is when it will be fun.

I played that way in melee but with jigglypuff. Now it's like brawl took my play style and put it into a new game. If you want to see what I'm talking about you can watch my matches but I do warn you I dont play Marth at all. Normally I wouldnt post this but I do think brawl is a much better game than you're making it out to be and I certainly see it developing very well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA8J6II5Cxc

 

[Turbo Ether]

From my experience, yes, it's very hard to combo in brawl, but at this time I don't think it's possible for anyone to determine all the things that X character can do to Y character at Z percentage on whatever stage.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Whoo, great thread, too bad about no comboes in Brawl. So many people that have Brawl say that Melee gameplay is better, it's so depressing.

 

[Shmooguy]

Thanks Mew2King, it's pretty crazy how you've found all this out already (frame counting ftw). This info is incredibly helpful.

In general I have to agree with Mew2King even though I wish it wasn't true; while there may be more techniques that make the game competitive that haven't been discovered yet, what we know so far points towards Brawl being a dumbed-down version of Melee.

 

[memphischains]

Arghhhh!!!!

Whoo, great thread, too bad about no comboes in Brawl. So many people that have Brawl say that Melee gameplay is better, it's so depressing.

..................
apperently.


people are not giving the game enough time; let it blossum dammit!

 

[Turbo Ether]

what we know so far points towards Brawl being a dumbed-down version of Melee.

Brawl isn't melee 2.0.

 

[mario-man]

the new things in brawl will make up for the things not in brawl. does that make sense?

I see what you're trying to say, but there are just certain things that should not be taken out of games. I'm not refering to WDing so don't worry there(though I would have liked it to stay).

I'm referring to combos. Yes, I read your posts, but you'rre not apparently getting what M2K is saying. He says that combos are basically gone in Brawl because of the HITSTUN being gone, then you say that you have to find new combos. The problem is, if hitstun is basically non-existent, then there is no way you can make any combos of any kind, ESPECIALLY if you're a character that isn't the fastest in the game.

Again, I see what you're trying to say, but you can't go into this thinking that Brawl is a perfect game automatically and that there is no way that it can be a bad competetive game either. I hope we are wrong, but it seems like we aren't, and that combos are gone, which would practically make the game suck competetively, which is really sad considering what this game could have been.

And yes Turbo Ather, everybody on the forums knows that it isn't Melee 2.0, it is Brawl. But it is also a smash bros. game, and should have certain characteristics which it seems not to have. Suppose SFIII had no combos in it. That series would have died so fast it isn't funny, or everybody would have played SFII. Same issue here.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

..................
apperently.


people are not giving the game enough time; let it blossum dammit!

At the moment, a technique that would randomly change the game from a gay camp and shield fest to a nice, speedy, more comboish game popping out of nowhere seems pretty unlikely. It happened in melee, against all odds, doesn't mean it will happen again in Brawl.

 

[memphischains]

I see what you're trying to say, but there are just certain things that should not be taken out of games. I'm not refering to WDing so don't worry there(though I would have liked it to stay).

I'm referring to combos. Yes, I read your posts, but you'rre not apparently getting what M2K is saying. He says that combos are basically gone in Brawl because of the HITSTUN being gone, then you say that you have to find new combos. The problem is, if hitstun is basically non-existent, then there is no way you can make any combos of any kind, ESPECIALLY if you're a character that isn't the fastest in the game.

Again, I see what you're trying to say, but you can't go into this thinking that Brawl is a perfect game automatically and that there is no way that it can be a bad competetive game either. I hope we are wrong, but it seems like we aren't, and that combos are gone, which would practically make the game suck competetively, which is really sad considering what this game could have been.

i dont think brawl is perfect. no way.

the hit stun thing is the item i was addressing the whole time. we'll find a way 'around' this problem.

 

[KevinM]

..................
apperently.


people are not giving the game enough time; let it blossum dammit!

You're not going to convince someone, you have no say without playing competitive melee. Saying to take things from brawl standereds is not how Melee developed, we found out so much from looking at things like how smash 64 was.

 

[mario-man]

i dont think brawl is perfect. no way.

the hit stun thing is the item i was addressing the whole time. we'll find a way 'around' this problem.

You're forgetting ONE THING!!

THERE IS NO WAY TO HAVE COMBOS IF THERE IS NO STUN TIME AFTER A HIT LANDS!!!!

 

[memphischains]

You're not going to convince someone, you have no say without playing competitive melee. Saying to take things from brawl standereds is not how Melee developed, we found out so much from looking at things like how smash 64 was.

well, first off, i do play competetive melee. how many posts and how long ive been here is irrelevent.

second, what? your post was a little confusing me, so before i say anything about it can you clear it up

edit:

MARIO MAN; WHY YOU GATTA HATE

yes you can. it just has to be at a different approach. attacks all at once are combos. pojectile plus quick dash attack plus SH dair is a combo that would work according to what ive seen. and thats just an example

 

[Turbo Ether]

I see what you're trying to say, but there are just certain things that should not be taken out of games. I'm not refering to WDing so don't worry there(though I would have liked it to stay).

I'm referring to combos. Yes, I read your posts, but you'rre not apparently getting what M2K is saying. He says that combos are basically gone in Brawl because of the HITSTUN being gone, then you say that you have to find new combos. The problem is, if hitstun is basically non-existent, then there is no way you can make any combos of any kind, ESPECIALLY if you're a character that isn't the fastest in the game.

Again, I see what you're trying to say, but you can't go into this thinking that Brawl is a perfect game automatically and that there is no way that it can be a bad competetive game either. I hope we are wrong, but it seems like we aren't, and that combos are gone, which would practically make the game suck competetively, which is really sad considering what this game could have been.

Reduced hit stun makes it easier to escape practical combos. As of now, chaining hits is now based more on priority, hitboxes, frames and mind games than hit stun. It's more like a traditional fighter, where you won't usually do a ton of damage through a single string of guaranteed hits.

And yes Turbo Ather, everybody on the forums knows that it isn't Melee 2.0, it is Brawl. But it is also a smash bros. game, and should have certain characteristics which it seems not to have. Suppose SFIII had no combos in it. That series would have died so fast it isn't funny, or everybody would have played SFII. Same issue here.

It's still too early to determine that there are "no" combos in the game.

 

[thumbswayup]

I see what you're trying to say, but there are just certain things that should not be taken out of games. I'm not refering to WDing so don't worry there(though I would have liked it to stay).

I'm referring to combos. Yes, I read your posts, but you'rre not apparently getting what M2K is saying. He says that combos are basically gone in Brawl because of the HITSTUN being gone, then you say that you have to find new combos. The problem is, if hitstun is basically non-existent, then there is no way you can make any combos of any kind, ESPECIALLY if you're a character that isn't the fastest in the game.

Again, I see what you're trying to say, but you can't go into this thinking that Brawl is a perfect game automatically and that there is no way that it can be a bad competetive game either. I hope we are wrong, but it seems like we aren't, and that combos are gone, which would practically make the game suck competetively, which is really sad considering what this game could have been.

And yes Turbo Ather, everybody on the forums knows that it isn't Melee 2.0, it is Brawl. But it is also a smash bros. game, and should have certain characteristics which it seems not to have. Suppose SFIII had no combos in it. That series would have died so fast it isn't funny, or everybody would have played SFII. Same issue here.

i agree entirely. the game's been delayed to march because they removed every technique discovered by the pros on the demo version. nintendo should be ashamed of themselves for dumbing the game down. honestly, keeping advanced techniques in a game does not harm the people who dont use them. however, taking them out does harm the people who would have. its astonishingly idiotic of them and i get disgusted just thinking of their mindset on this.

 

[memphischains]

Reduced hit stun makes it easier to escape practical combos. As of now, chaining hits is now based more on priority, hitboxes, frames and mind games than hit stun. It's more like a traditional fighter, where you won't usually do a ton of damage through a single string of guaranteed hits.

YEAH! .... i guess thats what i was trying to say, kinda.

 

[thumbswayup]

basically, hit and run.

 

[Dan2]

If that's what the game has been changed to, then either people are going to have to change what they consider to be combos, or accept that combos are not in the game.

I played Mewtwo in Melee. He was slower, more floaty, and didn't have many combos (surprisingly similar to Brawl). That isn't to say that he couldn't get hits in... It just took prediction and excellent punishment of mistakes. Mewtwo's "combos" were nothing more than reading your opponent and punishing stuff like bad DI.

This is what it sounds like Brawl requires now.

 

[Aesir]

So is marth just retardedly (is that even a word? LOL) better then everyone else? lol

 

[GreenKirby]

So Mew2King is mad that Marth isn't as cheap anymore? >_>

 

[memphischains]

So Mew2King is mad that Marth isn't as cheap anymore? >_>

so, your an idiot that doesn't understand smash? 8|



to be on topic, not like a hit and run, more like multiple it and runs really fast. does that make sense?

EDIT: like dancing blade, luigis running a, things like this which have enough knockback to create a set up for another attack. "moves" with more than one attack in them that just gets enough out of your oppenent.

im just elaborating on an idea, theory, for teh discussion.

 

[OTRU...]

yo m2k what do you think of high gravity mode in brawl?

 

[Lord Knight]

It's OK M2K sweetie, you'll get over it.

 

[Mew2King]

Actually, Marth is just as good if not better in Brawl, comparatively to the other chars

so far I think Marth and toon link look the best, and in melee i think sheik fox and marth are the best. My main is still really good, I just don't think the game is very skillbased anymore, it feels to me more like Mario Party advanced, and those games get old to me fast because to me, moving fast and competitive nature gives me fun. It's fine if you're different, but I like speed, options, combos, skillbased things, and I feel this game could have been great if it had slight alters but it doesn't.

I'm so sorry for giving my opinion since you guys all asked, be glad I gave you all a rough review of some marth stuff.

Oh yeah, and I can't stand people who get mad just cuz they don't like the review I give the game, would you rather me lie about my opinion if I didn't like it. I mean that's what a lot of people do just to give people hope, but honesty is more important, and I cared A LOT about how brawl was going to turn out, I had really high hopes for it, but they dumbed down everything. I'm sad that this happens cuz it has fun levels and it would be SO much more enjoyable if everything wasn't so nerfed and noobed up.

 

[NJzFinest]

So Mew2King is mad that Marth isn't as cheap anymore? >_>

Marth is cheaper in Brawl wtf >_>

He's mad about the game (Brawl) in general.

 

[GreenKirby]

so, your an idiot that doesn't understand smash? 8|

Okay then. Since you're obvisouly the Einstein of Smash, why don't you tell me? >_>

Marth is cheaper in Brawl wtf >_>

He's mad about the game (Brawl) in general.

Well thank you for telling me what's he's mad at, instead of calling me an idiot like more other people here at SnobSmashboards.

Sidenote: If Marth is cheaper, I vote to ban him from tourneys.

 

[Aesir]

Brawl won't be a tourney game, I can see it now.

This game is just a complete downgrade.

Hal should have made this game, they actually know how to make a game that appease to casuals and competitive gamers.

 

[Shmooguy]

Brawl isn't melee 2.0.

It sure as hell isn't. What does that prove?

 

[GreenKirby]

Brawl won't be a tourney game, I can see it now.

This game is just a complete downgrade.

Hal should have made this game, they actually know how to make a game that appease to casuals and competitive gamers.

Cause clearly, a tournament scene that happened because the game was rushed is something to be proud of.

 

[memphischains]

Actually, Marth is just as good if not better in Brawl, comparatively to the other chars

so far I think Marth and toon link look the best, and in melee i think sheik fox and marth are the best. My main is still really good, I just don't think the game is very skillbased anymore, it feels to me more like Mario Party advanced, and those games get old to me fast because to me, moving fast and competitive nature gives me fun. It's fine if you're different, but I like speed, options, combos, skillbased things, and I feel this game could have been great if it had slight alters but it doesn't.

I'm so sorry for giving my opinion since you guys all asked, be glad I gave you all a rough review of some marth stuff.

I am, and i am just giving my opinion on yours. not a big deal. if your offended my bad. only pros opinions mean anything anyway (completely joking). you started a great discussion. and this is so relevant in todays disscussions

Okay then. Since you're obvisouly the Einstein of Smash, why don't you tell me? >_>

you, however, are just ignorant.

marth is not cheap, at all, his metagame has just been more developed than most characters.
there are more places to find out abotu more things about marth, than say, kirby. your name entails that you like to use kirby, wether or not you acually use kirby is besides the point but a great example. the average marth player is better than the average kirby player. not because of tiers, but because more people learned the stregnths of marth because more people took the time to develope marths mtea game.

there are more marth players and kirby plays, not a proven fact, but a strong assumption. tell me if you disagree. if anyone does at all.



In short, do everyone a favor and never speak agian until you understand whats going on