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Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy
- Thread starter Levitas
- Start date
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
As long as you're not using it at point blank range, PK Fire won't travel far enough to hit you if Fox reflects it. I'd also be careful with using PK Thunder to recover but IDK if jumping offstage to reflect it for a gimp is something Fox would usually do, so take that with a few grains of salt.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
I've never even heard of a Fox doing that before, much less seeing it.
§witch
Smash Lord
Well, considering the fact that fox's usually go for shine spikes anyways, it's a possibility. Rising nair is a better edgeguard anyways, though a well placed shin spike will screw you over really bad. I really don't have too much experience in this match-up, though I can clear up any misconceptions about fox in general.
Levitas
the moon
fox is relatively even. his lasers don't bother us, and he's a lot less of a bull**** oriented character than falco.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Actually, I think it's advantage Lucas, to be honest.
Duo55
Smash Ace
I'd say its Lucas 60/40 Fox. None of Fox's normal combos mess Lucas up to bad. Fox reflector is pretty much useless against lucas' slow, short range PK Fire. Lucas can force Fox to approach for the simple fact of the psi magnet, and thats the problem with this fight. Fox approach is... lacking, but it gets worse. All of lucas' attacks are good at stopping approches anyway (ie pk fire, F-tilt, D-tilt, D-smash, Nair) basically all of lucas' attacks are anti approach. Also, the dair is alot more risky to use on lucas because of the U-smash, even with shine stalling, it can be tricky to time a dair correctly with the lasting hit box on his U-smash. Lucas really has no problem KOing in my experience against him, and Fox light wieght adds to this problem. The only thing I see lucas having a problem in is recovering without getting shine spiked, but we all know the shine has fallen from glory and if missed timed in the least can, and probably will result in Fox catching a pk thunder charge.
Lucas will be dying at around 90% everytime, Fox will be dying at around the same. People think that the only thing Fox has is dair.........your in for a surprise the first time you meet a Fox that mixes it up. If Lucas is off stage, it's very easy to kill him. I don't really have much familiarity with Lucas so i'm not going to comment on the matchup decision. I would like it if some knowledgeable Lucas players explained to me why they think Lucas has the advantage however.
x9whitey9x
Smash Journeyman
Lucas has the advantage for reason already mentioned. His PSI Magnet forces Fox to approach, and defensive playing is what Lucas is good at. Offstage, although Lucas can be gimped by the reflector, the risk there is enough to make a Fox think twice about it. His reflector is nearly worthless against PK Fire. Lucas also wins close range, with his 0-startup lag jab combo and tilts.
60/40
EDIT: Off topic, I believe Olimar is next. CAPTAIN Olimar.
60/40
EDIT: Off topic, I believe Olimar is next. CAPTAIN Olimar.
Heh, after being reminded of a few things, I'm actually going to put this at 50/50.
Neither has to approach. Lucas' best chance, ironically, is approaching.
Neither has to approach. Lucas' best chance, ironically, is approaching.
Only on certain stages.
Or by nearly anything in Fox's arsenal, for that matter.
Reflector isn't the main way of dealing with mid-range projectiles, and Fox is mobile enough to get around PK fire without sitting in Reflector all day. Keep in mind as well the free buffering zone after being hit by a projectile when Fox can buffer nearly any move action.
Maybe on the ground. (And that's a big maybe.) Not in the air.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Nope. Guess again.
And also, Lucas does have sufficient recovery options that the PK Thunder might not even be used for the whole match.
§witch
Smash Lord
All it takes is a well placed nair, and lucas has lost his DJ, and therefore is forced to use PKT. You can kiss that stock good-bye.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Well who says Lucas has to be anywhere near fox when he decides to Zap Jump or Wavebounce?
Levitas
the moon
Fox always approaches lucas because he cannot camp lucas at all. Even without pk fire, lucas camps fox.
And fox kills w/ upsmash 90% of the time, he really can't edgeguard lucas unless something stupid happens.
Alternatively, fox can end a lucas by following up a juggle with a fair.
And fox kills w/ upsmash 90% of the time, he really can't edgeguard lucas unless something stupid happens.
Alternatively, fox can end a lucas by following up a juggle with a fair.
A6M Zero
Smash Ace
65-35
The only reason I'm putting this SLIGHTLY more in Lucas's favour then most people is their failure to mention one thing.
Lucas covers the area around him very well, and he severely cuts down Fox's aerial angles.
The only reason I'm putting this SLIGHTLY more in Lucas's favour then most people is their failure to mention one thing.
Lucas covers the area around him very well, and he severely cuts down Fox's aerial angles.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Holy crap, it's the guy that had the AIM conversation with Fenrir.
....you know, I didn't really consider that.......hhhmmmmmm...
what are everyone else's thoughts on this? He does bring up a legitimate point.
chaos_Leader
Smash Lord
Personally, I find Lucas/Fox match-ups to be less of a headache, Ness is usually a tougher matchup for me. I'd put it slightly into Lucas' favor simply because of the complex shenanigans Fox uses to beat Lucas, and the comparative simplicity of Lucas' game-plan.
I played against several different Lucas players at a recent tournament, so I may have some credentials on this matchup.
what to watch out for:
-Baiting:
Fox can run circles around Lucas and his long-lasting moves. A good Fox will try to provoke Lucas into leaving an opening, nowhere more apparent than Fox approaching, They say Fox has a weak approach game, which is why Fox almost never approaches directly. Fox will also be mixing it up, using different tactics and maneuvers to throw off your punishing, even in recovery.
-Recovery Gimp:
Lucas is a relatively slow-moving target in the air and PK thunder-charge takes a little time to work properly. Fox needs only to N/D-air Lucas once to knock out that second jump, another N-air/shine-spike placed properly will finish Lucas during PK thunder if needed.
A fast death
U-Smash will come out of nowhere and will almost always kill around 100% if Fox keeps it fresh,
D-Smash won't necessarily Kill you, but it will send you far at a low angle, recover carefully.
B-Air is one of those that will also come out and surprise you when you aren't paying attention.
How to win:
Patience
Lucas has no reason to approach Fox, so don't. Fox players are almost always less comfortable when on the offensive, they prefer to gauge their opponent and react to their moves. If they can't do that, then they will often revert to simpler tactics that Lucas can exploit. I know I do.
Recovery Gimp
Fox is also perfectly gimpable. One of the best ways is to receive Fox's recovery with a smash attack. If Lucas can accurately predict where Fox will end his recovery, Lucas can very easily kill Fox with whatever smash attack Lucas pleases. Lucas can also knock out Fox's 2nd jump with a F-air making recovery impossible or play right right into Lucas' advantage.
I can't think of anything else right now, I'll try to remember more later
I played against several different Lucas players at a recent tournament, so I may have some credentials on this matchup.
what to watch out for:
-Baiting:
Fox can run circles around Lucas and his long-lasting moves. A good Fox will try to provoke Lucas into leaving an opening, nowhere more apparent than Fox approaching, They say Fox has a weak approach game, which is why Fox almost never approaches directly. Fox will also be mixing it up, using different tactics and maneuvers to throw off your punishing, even in recovery.
-Recovery Gimp:
Lucas is a relatively slow-moving target in the air and PK thunder-charge takes a little time to work properly. Fox needs only to N/D-air Lucas once to knock out that second jump, another N-air/shine-spike placed properly will finish Lucas during PK thunder if needed.
A fast death
U-Smash will come out of nowhere and will almost always kill around 100% if Fox keeps it fresh,
D-Smash won't necessarily Kill you, but it will send you far at a low angle, recover carefully.
B-Air is one of those that will also come out and surprise you when you aren't paying attention.
How to win:
Patience
Lucas has no reason to approach Fox, so don't. Fox players are almost always less comfortable when on the offensive, they prefer to gauge their opponent and react to their moves. If they can't do that, then they will often revert to simpler tactics that Lucas can exploit. I know I do.
Recovery Gimp
Fox is also perfectly gimpable. One of the best ways is to receive Fox's recovery with a smash attack. If Lucas can accurately predict where Fox will end his recovery, Lucas can very easily kill Fox with whatever smash attack Lucas pleases. Lucas can also knock out Fox's 2nd jump with a F-air making recovery impossible or play right right into Lucas' advantage.
I can't think of anything else right now, I'll try to remember more later
Fox loves to approach from the air, Lucas' up smash is godly.
Like Chaos said, i bait Lucas now in order to get inside and combo the lil guy.
Shoot lazers, get in 7-10 damage, bait the psi-absorber thingy
, run in for a dash attack/grab/upsmash
Watchout for dsmash when near edges as it will send you at a horrible angle for recovering
I always feel that i get out prioritzed in the air, I space my fairs carefully as not to get hit out of it.
Id give it 6-4 in Lucas favor cause of air priority and that godly upsmash makes Fox be weary of approaching with Dair.
Like Chaos said, i bait Lucas now in order to get inside and combo the lil guy.
Shoot lazers, get in 7-10 damage, bait the psi-absorber thingy
, run in for a dash attack/grab/upsmashWatchout for dsmash when near edges as it will send you at a horrible angle for recovering
I always feel that i get out prioritzed in the air, I space my fairs carefully as not to get hit out of it.
Id give it 6-4 in Lucas favor cause of air priority and that godly upsmash makes Fox be weary of approaching with Dair.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
i can shield between fox's dair and a smash
to gimp fox, use your PKT and move it near the edge, where his side b must pass
vs his dsmash, we have the DI+zair recoery (not as good as other characters, but still works)
60-40 lucas
to gimp fox, use your PKT and move it near the edge, where his side b must pass
vs his dsmash, we have the DI+zair recoery (not as good as other characters, but still works)
60-40 lucas
Levitas
the moon
Some corrections to the previous couple of posts:
Don't think that you can gimp fox with a smash unless they're stupid or something. using a smash means you're not on the edge, so they have no reason not to just go to the edge instead. Fox can sweetspot through a dsmash, so that's out, too.
z3rocool or whatever, you're wrong in a few regards. if fox starts using his blaster too close to lucas, he's in danger. If he uses it ouside of that range, lucas can react to the first laser with a psi magnet. If a blaster hits his magnet, he can cancel it immediately.
APC, fox's dair combos into smash at high percents only. At 0%, fox's dair doesn't even combo into utilt (reliably).
I'm still in the even zone, but it may be as much as a 6:4 lucas
Don't think that you can gimp fox with a smash unless they're stupid or something. using a smash means you're not on the edge, so they have no reason not to just go to the edge instead. Fox can sweetspot through a dsmash, so that's out, too.
z3rocool or whatever, you're wrong in a few regards. if fox starts using his blaster too close to lucas, he's in danger. If he uses it ouside of that range, lucas can react to the first laser with a psi magnet. If a blaster hits his magnet, he can cancel it immediately.
APC, fox's dair combos into smash at high percents only. At 0%, fox's dair doesn't even combo into utilt (reliably).
I'm still in the even zone, but it may be as much as a 6:4 lucas
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Alright, I believe we all agree with 60-40.
If there are no objections, I will start the next discussion in a few hours.
If you have any last thoughts, please say them now.
If there are no objections, I will start the next discussion in a few hours.
If you have any last thoughts, please say them now.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Ok, time to start discussing Toon Link.
And yes, I will write all of those summaries this week.
And yes, I will write all of those summaries this week.
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
- Messages
- 25,073
- Switch FC
- 8132-9932-4710
Lucas probably has a safe horizontal recovery, so with zap jump and stuff it wouldn't be too bad.
Watch out for Toon's Tether hogging.
Recover from above as much as you can.
Spacing well with PK fire is essential and just try and avoid Toon Link's projectiles.
Watch out for Toon's Dair near the edge.
Using Up-B to mess up Toon Link's recovery probably wont work to your advantage just because of the angles and way he recovers.
Kill him before he kills you.
You can't absorb and of his projectiles.
Toon Link's Zair has pretty good range, watch out for that.
If your going to try to gimp TL offstage, go with Bair.
Toon Link's airial game is probably better then Lucas's, so avoid air combat.
Idk how you should approach. Fair I suppose.
I'd give it 60-40 in TL's favor at least I suppose.
idk what else to day. =/
Watch out for Toon's Tether hogging.
Recover from above as much as you can.
Spacing well with PK fire is essential and just try and avoid Toon Link's projectiles.
Watch out for Toon's Dair near the edge.
Using Up-B to mess up Toon Link's recovery probably wont work to your advantage just because of the angles and way he recovers.
Kill him before he kills you.
You can't absorb and of his projectiles.
Toon Link's Zair has pretty good range, watch out for that.
If your going to try to gimp TL offstage, go with Bair.
Toon Link's airial game is probably better then Lucas's, so avoid air combat.
Idk how you should approach. Fair I suppose.
I'd give it 60-40 in TL's favor at least I suppose.
idk what else to day. =/
Levitas
the moon
we don't like to approach, and neither do they.
They're better at not liking to approach, though.
They're better at not liking to approach, though.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Wow, four people, and every one of them have a different view on the matchup than I do.
I obviously need to play some TLinks.
I obviously need to play some TLinks.
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
it really all depends on what kind of toon link you are fighting.....vs a campy toon link its around 60-40 in toon links favor.....if they dont over use their projectiles i give it 60-40 in lucas's favor.
when you are fighting toon link always pick stages with platforms so it is easier to approach him when he is using projectiles. dont bother reflecting his arrows but side smashing his boomerang can be useful. whle his boomerang is coming back at him hit it with your side smash....it should keep going towards him like normal but it will hit him once it gets to him allowing you to run in and punish him.
when you are fighting toon link always pick stages with platforms so it is easier to approach him when he is using projectiles. dont bother reflecting his arrows but side smashing his boomerang can be useful. whle his boomerang is coming back at him hit it with your side smash....it should keep going towards him like normal but it will hit him once it gets to him allowing you to run in and punish him.
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
(Is the next character Donkey Kong?)
I agree with CTX for the most part. A Toon Link that spams projectiles is much harder to fight than one that doesn't. Our only projectile that doesn't leave us open has inferior range to everything Toon Link has except maybe his bombs and reflecting arrows with fsmash is unreliable since Toon Link can vary when he releases them. I think PK Freeze has better range than anything he can throw our way before it detonates, but it's too slow to do anything other than force a shield. The fewer projectiles Toon Link uses, the easier it is for Lucas.
On a different note, if you're fighting a dair-happy Toon Link, punish with usmash. It goes right through dair as long as you time it right.
I just thought of something: Jump, airdodge through whatever projectile gets thrown your way, try to bait a usmash or similar, wavebounce out of range and punish? I'll need to try this out...
Anyway, I'd personally put this matchup at 60-40 Toon Link just because he's so much better at keeping Lucas away (or at least making him take damage for getting close) than vice-versa.
EDIT: Also, an arrow can stop PKT2 in its tracks. I found this out when fighting my friend the other day. >_<
I agree with CTX for the most part. A Toon Link that spams projectiles is much harder to fight than one that doesn't. Our only projectile that doesn't leave us open has inferior range to everything Toon Link has except maybe his bombs and reflecting arrows with fsmash is unreliable since Toon Link can vary when he releases them. I think PK Freeze has better range than anything he can throw our way before it detonates, but it's too slow to do anything other than force a shield. The fewer projectiles Toon Link uses, the easier it is for Lucas.
On a different note, if you're fighting a dair-happy Toon Link, punish with usmash. It goes right through dair as long as you time it right.
I just thought of something: Jump, airdodge through whatever projectile gets thrown your way, try to bait a usmash or similar, wavebounce out of range and punish? I'll need to try this out...
Anyway, I'd personally put this matchup at 60-40 Toon Link just because he's so much better at keeping Lucas away (or at least making him take damage for getting close) than vice-versa.
EDIT: Also, an arrow can stop PKT2 in its tracks. I found this out when fighting my friend the other day. >_<
Levitas
the moon
Don't punish with usmash. It's slower, and the t. link has to be a little off to be doing it from a range that you can react to his dair with your usmash.
Just wondering, does Toon Link's Zair clank with PK Fire? Also, does the Hero's Shield block it out, along with PK Thunder?
Eh, I'd say 60-40 as Toon Link out ranges Lucas w/ Zair quite a bit. Of course projectile play bumps up the match toward his favor too. In close combat, the two are basically equal in range. Lucas fares okay due to the nature of his moves being rather hard hitters. Basically, Toon Link's difficulty in killing is a saving grace for Lucas.
But still, TL imo, has the edge whether or not he's camping or approaching. But we're not here to analyze playstyles, just the two characters and their traits and that's it.
When you look at it like that, overall, Toon Link has enough of a noticeable advantage to score 6/4 in his favor. At least I think so.
Feel free to correct me on anything.
Eh, I'd say 60-40 as Toon Link out ranges Lucas w/ Zair quite a bit. Of course projectile play bumps up the match toward his favor too. In close combat, the two are basically equal in range. Lucas fares okay due to the nature of his moves being rather hard hitters. Basically, Toon Link's difficulty in killing is a saving grace for Lucas.
But still, TL imo, has the edge whether or not he's camping or approaching. But we're not here to analyze playstyles, just the two characters and their traits and that's it.
When you look at it like that, overall, Toon Link has enough of a noticeable advantage to score 6/4 in his favor. At least I think so.
Feel free to correct me on anything.
QUIVO
Smash Master
No way is the matchup 70-30 in toon links favor. TL doesnt counter lucas... I agree with those who are saying 60-40
Ginger_Warrior
Smash Apprentice
TL 60-40 Lucas
I won't go into detail, but TL is just slightly better than Lucas in all ways except possibly killing (what I wouldn't give for a stick at times). TL's more versatile too, with respect, there isn't much meat to Lucas's bones.
If you want advice though, PKT2. When spaced right, it removes TL's projectile game, albeit for a short time only. Watch for rolls, some TL's like to roll behind and Dsmash when near edge - perfect for a well-timed stick.
I won't go into detail, but TL is just slightly better than Lucas in all ways except possibly killing (what I wouldn't give for a stick at times). TL's more versatile too, with respect, there isn't much meat to Lucas's bones.
If you want advice though, PKT2. When spaced right, it removes TL's projectile game, albeit for a short time only. Watch for rolls, some TL's like to roll behind and Dsmash when near edge - perfect for a well-timed stick.
Dxt XXII
Smash Journeyman
Toon Link is extremely hard to gimp or spike, do to his hard-to-get-around recovery. Stick is really usefull, and be carefull with anything that throws him up (ex utilt), as he can just dair.
60-40 TL IMO
60-40 TL IMO
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
If nothing else comes up to contest 40-60 in Toon Link's favor by tomorrow, I'll just move on.
This matchup seems to be an open and shut case.
This matchup seems to be an open and shut case.