Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Would I be completely crazy putting this matchup as 45-55 instead of 40-60?
I think it could be neutral.
I think it could be neutral.
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Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy
- Thread starter Levitas
- Start date
Levitas
the moon
It's not neutral.
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
its definately in snakes favor...id put it around 40-60 in snakes favor
prOAPC
Smash Lord
yesterday i played with 3 different Snakes, i beat all of them, and lost only one fight (a 3 min fight ¬¬ so wait for it to be in YT)
i don't know if i was doing something wrong, but my dsmash didn't stop his dash attack/mortal slide, but PKF do stop it
snake like to recover very high, i think the higher he goes the easier to land an usmash
if they spam nades, spam WBPKF and don't approach
i was really happy using nair to nair vs other characters, but Snake can spotdodge every single hit of this attack, same with R.O.B.
i don't know if i was doing something wrong, but my dsmash didn't stop his dash attack/mortal slide, but PKF do stop it
snake like to recover very high, i think the higher he goes the easier to land an usmash
if they spam nades, spam WBPKF and don't approach
i was really happy using nair to nair vs other characters, but Snake can spotdodge every single hit of this attack, same with R.O.B.
^^^
If you fastfall your SH Nairs you can start another one and you'll hit them as their spotdodge is ending so you can continue the combo. The only way to avoid SHFF Nairs is to shield roll if you have a full shield when the first one starts or to attack it as Lucas approaches. Or perfect shield the initial hit and roll but that's pretty uncommon because of how the move works.
If you fastfall your SH Nairs you can start another one and you'll hit them as their spotdodge is ending so you can continue the combo. The only way to avoid SHFF Nairs is to shield roll if you have a full shield when the first one starts or to attack it as Lucas approaches. Or perfect shield the initial hit and roll but that's pretty uncommon because of how the move works.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Ok ok, Snake isn;'t neutral.
Let;s talk about the next fighter, Wolf.
Also, just a reminder that next week is the Bowser Rediscussion. And after that, I have no idea.
If there was ever a time to PM me suggestions, now would be the time.
Let;s talk about the next fighter, Wolf.
Also, just a reminder that next week is the Bowser Rediscussion. And after that, I have no idea.
If there was ever a time to PM me suggestions, now would be the time.
OK some stuff about Wolf vs Lucas
Usually, you have to get around the bair Wall of pain to break his defense...this can be hard, if somebody lacks range but Lucas aerial game is quite good so I think, he can find a way through.
Wolf also heavily relies on his range - spacing is the key for a lot of Wolfs victories...
That said, I'd say Wolf has a minor advantage here. It's a neutral match-up but Wolf just has overall better properties - more range, speed and power. Not a huge difference but it doesn have an impact on this match-up...45:55 or something like that.
The best way to defeat Wolf is spacing via PKFire imo, since it can stop a lot of his moves and keep him further ranged, than he likes to. On longer range PKThunder + DownB to camp him works quite nice.
Don't ever use a laggy attack against him. His punishing game is second to none with his fsmash and usmash...
The major problem here is Wolfs speed. A good moves spams lagless atacks like bair, 0 lag fair and his jabs in rapid succesion, which can hurt Lucas more useful moves. Make the best use of Lucas speed to keep up with him and you have equally good chances to win - aerials work best imo.
Watch out for his dsmash - it kills very early...
Usually, you have to get around the bair Wall of pain to break his defense...this can be hard, if somebody lacks range but Lucas aerial game is quite good so I think, he can find a way through.
Wolf also heavily relies on his range - spacing is the key for a lot of Wolfs victories...
That said, I'd say Wolf has a minor advantage here. It's a neutral match-up but Wolf just has overall better properties - more range, speed and power. Not a huge difference but it doesn have an impact on this match-up...45:55 or something like that.
The best way to defeat Wolf is spacing via PKFire imo, since it can stop a lot of his moves and keep him further ranged, than he likes to. On longer range PKThunder + DownB to camp him works quite nice.
Don't ever use a laggy attack against him. His punishing game is second to none with his fsmash and usmash...
The major problem here is Wolfs speed. A good moves spams lagless atacks like bair, 0 lag fair and his jabs in rapid succesion, which can hurt Lucas more useful moves. Make the best use of Lucas speed to keep up with him and you have equally good chances to win - aerials work best imo.
Watch out for his dsmash - it kills very early...
prOAPC
Smash Lord
wolf only spam
punish his smashes with a grab or a jab combo
his down be is really good, he can use it to counter attacks
prepare a dsmash near the edge when he's recovering, sometimes his upB and sideB doesn't sweetspot
punish his smashes with a grab or a jab combo
his down be is really good, he can use it to counter attacks
prepare a dsmash near the edge when he's recovering, sometimes his upB and sideB doesn't sweetspot
"wolf only spam"
"punish his smashes..."
We're talkin about good Wolves, not about stupid, spamming, mindless, n00bish Wolfs. A good Wolf makes use of all his options and uses his smashes only to punish or finish (dsmash)
"punish his smashes..."
We're talkin about good Wolves, not about stupid, spamming, mindless, n00bish Wolfs. A good Wolf makes use of all his options and uses his smashes only to punish or finish (dsmash)
Yeah... I'd put this one down as relatively neutral. I have a feeling that nair ***** wolf a lot in the air, or at least from my experience. Just don't do anything laggy, as Gheb said, wolf is a great punisher. PK fire for spacing is a good idea, and pkt for annoying wolf when he is off the stage is probably even better, I'm not sure if it can knock him out of his upB though. As long as you're on a stage with plenty of areas for tether recovery, you should be fine.
Levitas
the moon
Wolf does better at a range with the blaster than lucas does with pk fire. yes you can absorb, but it doesn't matter in this case that much.
Wolf does better horizontally spaced in the air, as his bair outranges your stuff, and does more damage.
Wolf does really well on the ground between his smashes and grab.
Wolf is at the advantage here. ProAPC used a strawman argument where "wolfs are predictable". Playing against a good wolf who isn't predictable is really tough.
Wolf does better horizontally spaced in the air, as his bair outranges your stuff, and does more damage.
Wolf does really well on the ground between his smashes and grab.
Wolf is at the advantage here. ProAPC used a strawman argument where "wolfs are predictable". Playing against a good wolf who isn't predictable is really tough.
pianodude700
Smash Journeyman
most the wolfs i've seen do a throw >blaster combo
if you're quick enough you can just absorb the blaster and defeat the purpose of the entire combo
if you're quick enough you can just absorb the blaster and defeat the purpose of the entire combo
Dxt XXII
Smash Journeyman
Wolf can be a really hard matchup at times. His smashes punish easily and the blaster can throw off your recovery. SH nair can be really usefull, and PKF is necessary for spacing. His recovery can be predictable, though.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
I feel the need to bump this, because there are several different views here.
DemonicTrilogy
Smash Lord
Yeah... In most cases, the Wolf will blast you while your attacking if you missed and you wouldn't have time to PSI Magnet it...
I agree with this. Since Wolves use laser until you get up close only to be grabbed or Baired and have a really huge forward smash thrust, they are really tough.
Wolves that are good usually often see you doing PK fires and reflect it very quickly. Getting the wolf off the stage is also a question I ask you.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
I will say that Wolf has a slight leg up, but not enough to change this into an advantage.
I say it's 45-55.
I say it's 45-55.
Levitas
the moon
this is not a neutral matchup.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
I get the distinct feeling that you guys see something I don't, or I see something you don't.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
i only play with one Wolf main (Guar), and a strategy that works angaist him is to be really offensively (i have an aggresive Lucas), because Wolf's offensive game is better than Lucas' defensive game, so don't let him attack you, you should lead the battle. We all know that Lucas' approaches are not that good, so this is a problem and that is why this is not a neutral match up. 60-40 Wolf
Dxt XXII
Smash Journeyman
^What he said. Wolf can keep you off balance easily.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Alright, it's 40-60, but I wanna make it known that I heavily disagree with that score, and I will have no problem reopening that discussion if Lucas finds ANY AT that may change the score.
Anyway, Bowser rediscussion.
Also, keep sending in suggestions for upcoming discussions.
Anyway, Bowser rediscussion.
Also, keep sending in suggestions for upcoming discussions.
DemonicTrilogy
Smash Lord
Hmmm, do you think that a wavebounced PK fire after a double jump to a forward magnet pull into wolf to release as an attack will help at all? It has good knockback and would absorb lasers on the way as you are magnet pulling at him.
^^^
Yeah assuming the wolf you're playing against is dumb enough to sit there spamming lasers in the exact spot where your magnet pull hitbox is going to hit. If he has enough brains to, I dunno, use any move in his arsenal as he watches you flying helplessly through the air toward him then no it would not help. Seriously people, play some opponents with good reaction time. The only way you're going to pull off a magnet pull approach against anyone is sheer dumb luck or complete noobiness.
Yeah assuming the wolf you're playing against is dumb enough to sit there spamming lasers in the exact spot where your magnet pull hitbox is going to hit. If he has enough brains to, I dunno, use any move in his arsenal as he watches you flying helplessly through the air toward him then no it would not help. Seriously people, play some opponents with good reaction time. The only way you're going to pull off a magnet pull approach against anyone is sheer dumb luck or complete noobiness.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Yeah, the Magnet Pull is not a reliable option for damage building or KOing.
It's for Magnet pulling, absorbing projectiles, and slowing down your fall speed.
It's for Magnet pulling, absorbing projectiles, and slowing down your fall speed.
DemonicTrilogy
Smash Lord
Sorry. I was just making a suggestion. You don't have to make it crash and burn in front of my face T_T.
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
magnet puling has no benefit you say? where is your proof good sir because I use magnet pull quite a bit and it has saved my *** many times not to mention I've had a couple KO's from it. It only works as a suprise attack so i only use it once or twice a match, but it is far from having "no benefit"
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Can we get back on topic?
I mean, there is a giant lizard that needs (re)discussion.
I mean, there is a giant lizard that needs (re)discussion.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
ZMan
Smash Master
Did you get my pm about my request for the next character?
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Take a wild guess.
Works for me, let's move onto Luigi.
Also, i'll be posting summaries for all the fighters that need it this week, so expect those sometime.
BurtonEarny
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2008
- Messages
- 579
idk. I think its 6-4 bowser. besides in cases where the bowser is being stupid... lucas can spam projectiles and thats about all, he gets outranged/outclassed in the close and mid range departments. Lucas has the edge as long as the fight stays long range, but in the other instances hes in trouble.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
You forget that we also have theaerial advantage.
a good Lucas can juggle Bowser all the way to KO percentage.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
Well I always fight Lucas with my luigi and I can say its either a decent 55:45 or 50:50 or only being inaccurate 60:40 in luigi's favor. I'll post my 2 cents later
LuigiKing
Smash Lord
As much as I like hippiedude, I have to disagree on this one. Lucas always gives me problems as Luigi, primarily because Lucas is SO much better at spacing out Luigi, since Lucas's projectile is so great, and psi magnet is fast enough to catch stray fireballs. Luigi gets gimped by Lucas's pk thunder fairly easily too unless you manage to nair through the tip of the stupid thing. I think a good Lucas has the advantage here, even though its by no means a great matchup for him. If no one else bothers to talk about this any more, I can expand my thoughts. But for now, I'm thinking 60:40 Lucas's favor.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
I have been playing against Luigi players the last few days.
Luigi doesn't have much on stage that Lucas can't handle, and Luigi's reco very is extremely thunderable.
I'm thinking 60-40.
Edit: I added a new summary for Bowser, and made summaries for G&W and Snake. If someone else wants to make a sumamry for Wolf, feel free, because I know I'l be biased as hell.
Luigi doesn't have much on stage that Lucas can't handle, and Luigi's reco very is extremely thunderable.
I'm thinking 60-40.
Edit: I added a new summary for Bowser, and made summaries for G&W and Snake. If someone else wants to make a sumamry for Wolf, feel free, because I know I'l be biased as hell.