Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[lain]

I wonder if people know me? >> <<

Anyways, this is probably a 70-30, or even an 80-20 matchup. There is simply no a whole lot a Lucas can do against a competent G&W. Bairs and Uairs reck Lucas, and basically put him in a lockdown where he can then be predicted. Bair against the shield, if it doesn't poke, run away. Then go in for another, and they either must not get hit by it at all, or they WILL get at the very least shieldpoked.

Lucas' mobility is simply no match for G&W's. Things Lucas can do to G&W include Usmashing his dair (kills areound 70%), if the G&W doesn't run away after a bair then Lucas can run up and grab, and... yeah. Not a whole lot.

If G&W gets Lucas off the stage (which is extremely easy) and gets Lucas to use his PK Thunder, Lucas has just lost that stock, period.

This is true that Lucas can just recover low enough to a point where the bucket will kill them both, but then G&W can just... grab the edge at the right moment.

 

[prOAPC]

i don't know what happened, but my last post was longer >_>
i said that a G&W won't be afraid of going off stage to gimp Lucas, even his neutral B can mess up his recovery
remember how many PK Fire has G&W aboserbed you, they won't lose them even if they die (Lucas' fsmash can reflect the oil?)
learn to tech his dsmash (i couldn't ), or at least don't be predicatable
his usmash has no ending lag, people try to attack after his usmash, because they think it is a slow attack, it start slowly, but he can follow it with any attack immediately
i think the best approach is FH Dair, and for spacing Ftilt
G&W players will make a smash everytime they touch the ground
G&W is one of my secondaries, and i must say that is 80-20 G&W favor

 

[Trozz]

G&W is super light. Use d-tilt to trip him, then follow up with a f-smash kill. GL pulling that one off.

 

[prOAPC]

G&W is super light. Use d-tilt to trip him, then follow up with a f-smash kill. GL pulling that one off.

the only fight i've uploaded vs a G&W i used that combo, one of the dtilts stopped his dsmash, the next one triped him, then i use the fsmash and finish with bair spike
i'm using a lot dtilt now, specially after a jab cancel (jab jab dtilt jab jab dtilt is good, pay attention when he trips to follow with a fsmash)

 

[Tyr_03]

G and W is a near impossible matchup for Lucas. The only character who comes close to being as hard for Lucas is Toon Link and maybe Marth. But frankly I'd rather fight a Marth player anyday even with the grab release. Don't even bother with Nairs, all of his aerials will stop it. Dairs are hard to pull off because of his Uair which can mess up your timing. He can gimp your PKT2 with bucket or Uair so try to make fast recoveries with the snake tether or magnet pulling if you're high enough. Your best bet is to outspace him. Make use of your Uair when you get the chance because it can actually outprioritize a few of his moves. Once you get him off the edge GO FOR THE SPIKE. Don't **** around or you'll miss one of the few oportunities to win. There aren't many good counterpicks against G and W but Metaknight does pretty solidly against him. Avoid going Lucas if you can. It's just a really lousy matchup plain and simple.

 

[Trozz]

D-tilt beat his hammer d-smash? Well, I guess it could've came out faster.

D-tilts in to trip in to f-smash. My new favorite trick after the spot dodge approach smash.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
You have to watch out for that. Since the Dtilts have basically no hitstun, opponent attacks can make it through. Also depending on the spacing they'll sometimes trip out of range. High risk, high reward.

 

[Trozz]

Yeah, if they aren't belly flopped or tripped right away, they can jab/grab you.

 

[prOAPC]

look this video, at the end i performed that combo Trozz is talking about, you can see i interrupted his dsmash before he trips

 

[Trozz]

Nice. There's enough of a delay on GW's smashes that the trip can hit first. Smexy finish.

 

[Mr Mattastic]

I don't have any experience against Lucas really, but I know the Ness vs Mr. Game & Watch matchup very well, and I'm pretty sure the bucket works out the same in both cases.

The bucket isn't going to be very useful against Lucas really. Pk Fire is too low range to bucket effectively, and the lag from the bucket means that Mr. Game & Watch is going to eat one of Lucas's deadly smashes (I haven't done any timing tests, but I bet you get a "free" up smash). Pk Freeze would be great to bucket I guess, but I'm going to assume that you Lucas players have the sense to not use that move (it sucks anyway).

Pk Thunder gets its own paragraph. If you bucket the tail, you end up filling your bucket with junk that makes for a very weak Oil Panic (unless Lucas's tail is stronger than Ness's which I doubt). If you get the head it's a powerful projectile, but competent Lucas players shouldn't be letting that happen. Most people see the bucket as a great gimp. It's an alright gimp... but Lucas has a trick. Remember that Mr. Game & Watch has a very long delay after using the bucket, and Lucas's Pk Thunder gets more height than Mr. Game & Watch's up special if memory serves (which is a difference from Ness who gets pretty similar height). If Mr. Game & Watch jumps over you and pulls out the bucket, don't use Pk Thunder. Just wait and fall, and use Pk Thunder when Mr. Game & Watch is low enough that he will die if he keeps the bucket out. Odds are he will (since putting the bucket away is slow), and you both will die. Once the Mr. Game & Watch player catches onto this gimmick, he will probably pull away after a while. Of course, once he backs off, you can recover as usual (though you will have to aim much better since you are going to be recovering from quite a bit lower). Since Lucas's Pk Thunder passes through targets that aren't able to absorb or reflect it and Mr. Game & Watch lacks a practical spike (his key can spike, but it's very impractical), the trickery against the bucket really reduces the gimping threat Mr. Game & Watch seems to have in the matchup. If you want to ever actually beat a Mr. Game & Watch player as Lucas, I suggest you get familiar with this shenanigan.

If the players decide to use this tactic instead of attacking each other, unless G&W actually absorbs the thunder he will make it back, he should also have 2 jumps to go with the long 3rd jump.

\. Once you get him off the edge GO FOR THE SPIKE. Don't **** around or you'll miss one of the few oportunities to win. There aren't many good counterpicks against G and W but Metaknight does pretty solidly against him. Avoid going Lucas if you can. It's just a really lousy matchup plain and simple.

It's not worth trying to spike him, you don't want to get off stage with G&W, all he would have to do is use his upB and it would go right through any spike and it would turn the tables against you.


I play against Lucus more than any other character and I would suggest using some of your faster moves like the neutral air and up tilts. Keep racking up damage and stay away from your specials. Once you get him to a high enougth percent try to sneak in a foward smash or shield grab into a back throw. Since G&W is so light you can kill him at a decent percent with it.

 

[Blackbelt]

I added the summaries for Ganon and Jigglypuff.

Is there anything anyone wants to add to the G&W discussion, or can I move on?

 

[Tyr_03]

You have to predict his up B to get the Bair spike in. If he hits you with his Up B you should be able to hit him with an Uair before he can get another move on you because of the low hitstun. This'll depend somewhat on the spacing but if you can get one hit in you'll be able to recover before he can edgeguard you.

 

[Trozz]

D-throw, tech chase. T_T

 

[Blackbelt]

D-throw, tech chase. T_T

Not Tech chase, D-Smash. According to This Thread, Lucas cannot avoid the DThrow to DSmash combo.



T_T

 

[Tyr_03]

yea definetly another "don't get grabbed" matchup

 

[Trozz]

D-throw to bucket.
Even better.

 

[Blackbelt]

D-throw to bucket.
Even better.

Yet another reason why the B Button is the the button not to press in this matchup.

 

[Tyr_03]

Actually the bucket has enough lag that if they bucket your PK Fire too close you can hit them before they get out of lag. Only really works if you know they're going to try to bucket it though.

 

[cutter]

Spiking G&W is next to impossible. His Uair blows you away and keeps you from ever landing a spike. Up B sweetspots the ledge and it has invincibility frames. So... yeah.

The bucket has a huge invisible sphere that extends very far out from the bucket. It's like a huge bubble shield against projectiles. After G&W absorbs the 3rd projectile the lag from the bucket gets cut down GREATLY compared the the first two absorptions. G&W also gets invincibility frames after he absorbs something.

Dthrow is brutal. If you don't tech it you're ****ed and if you're successfully techchased you're ****ed as well. All I can say is be as unpredictable as possible after the Dthrow. G&W's bucket hits on frame 1.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
Yeah Lucas doesn't spike from above so Uair won't affect him. Bair spikes from the side. It is definetly not impossible to Bair spike G&W. Also the invincibility frames on the bucket don't last that long and the lag continues so you have tons of time to get a hit off.

 

[cutter]

I guess I wasn't making myself clear. The Uair has phantom hitboxes that extend slightly diagonally from the direct vertical stream of air. G&W's Up B has invincibility frames for about halfway through his jump which is 5 frames. The move also pushes away anyone around G&W. I did not say it was impossible to spike G&W. It is hard as hell to do it.

Maybe if you're like point blank and you use a projectile G&W you can get him. But the "bubble shield" that Oil Panic makes is huge and gives G&W time to recover after absorbing something. Obviously after the third projectile the lag gets cut down greatly and you know what happens after that.

 

[Blackbelt]

I would go for the spike, simply because every other option sucks.

 

[ZMan]

Or if GAW doesn't sweetspot the ledge Usmash or grab him. It might be hard though to grab him due to how fast he moves.

EDIT: And it might be hard to usmash him due to wind being blown wat the start of his UpB. Bleh I need to test this.

 

[Trozz]

I can't imagine u-smash ever being good. Gaw's attacks come out way too fast and hard.

 

[Tyr_03]

Trust me. You can punish the bucket. Ask NoJ sometime if you don't believe me. The lag on it is stupid.

 

[Neb]

NoJ..., er, NoJ. Juntah doesn't know how to use his bucket.
Know this.

Click.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure G&W won't be pulling out his bucket stupidly, if he knows your trying to bait a spike.
Though if thats the case- Fair, Nair and Bair out cancel PKF. G&W could easily just recover from below though.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

This is one of those matchups that make me wish I had a solid alternate to cover Lucas' weaknesses.
Either way, I still run the risk of practically auto-losing the first game of a set.

Leading w/ Lucas can be really aggravating at times. -_-

Oh, and thanks for the "anti gimp shenanigan." At least I can do something when GW is up in my face on the recovery.

 

[ZMan]

So are we done with Lucas v GAW?

 

[Dotcom]

Olimar next eh?
I really want to see the thoughts on this.

 

[Levitas]

@ ZMan: seems likely.

 

[Blackbelt]

Yeah, we're done with G&W.


Now we'll start talking about Snake.


And we'll be rediscussing Bowser in two weeks time.


Anyway, I have an OP to edit.

 

[Dxt XXII]

If you space it right with pk fire and ftilt it's more Snake>Lucas than Snake>>Lucas.

 

[Tyr_03]

You can Bair spike his recovery. PK Fire can blow up his grenades if he's holding them. Avoid getting within Ftilt range. Jab his mortar slides. Avoid being predictable on his Dthrow. SH Uairs can combo because of his weight. FH Fairs are great because of his height as a safe approach. Mostly do anything you can to get him off the stage and spike him. Combo with aerials when possible but Nair approaches are going to get destroyed by his Ftilt. Yeah and his Ftilt is about a thousand times better than yours so spacing is difficult on the ground. Snake is vulnerable in the air. Draw out his airdodge and punish. Lucas has a disadvantage in this matchup but it could be a lot worse.

 

[Cecilanius]

*codec rings*

This is Cecilanius...

It would be great to have a challenge from a Lucas player. I'll be glad to help you guys out to gain more knowledge on the battle field...

What I had a lot of trouble with was getting out of neutral airs. Especially in the beginning percentages. If the Snake player doesn't pull out a grenade beforehand, you can get Snake locked in a series of neutral airs if spaced and timed correctly. I don't know if this will work all the time, but it could disorient the Snake if he isn't ready. After doing so, space yourself enough so that you can't be hit by the tilts. You need to approach at a slight angle. Don't charge in and go right through only giving Snake a few hits. Also, don't be stationary while doing the neutral air either.

Use that UP+B Boost... (Sorry for my ignorance. I forget what it's called.) to hit Snake. Whoever is playing Snake would probably be too busy trying to avoid that attack, rather than trying to punish the landing. Snake's weight plus that UP+B Boost's multiple hits can get Snake locked in there for a quite a bit of damage.

Using PK Thunder from a distance is an awesome way to damage and hinder Snake. You really need to practice it though to keep yourself safe from Snake charging and to direct in a way that will hit Snake up in the air. Once you get it down, it will be very useful.

Keep in mind, these three attack sequences are probably for the more unprepared Snake players.

Grenades can be nullified by PK Fire. Use it if you think the Snake will be pulling out an explosive. Or, just use it to get enough space away from Snake.

If you manage to hit Snake in the air, using an up tilt is probably your safest way to keep him up there. You can use up smash also, but be wary of....well yeah, you guys already know that.

To edgeguard from off stage, use the spike from the back air to get Snake off his cypher. You can also try using the UP+B Boost too. While on the stage, it helps to use down smash because of the multiple hits in case of error and it's large hitbox. Using PK Thunder is also another great way to edge guard. Just, keep yourself spaced enough away from the edge before doing so.

If you would like to test anything, call me on codec...*points at his AIM screen name* Keep in mind that I haven't played in a while though...

*ends codec*

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

this is a tough match up but quite a fun one. one major thing you should know is that jab cancels out most of his close up attacks so use jab combos whenever you are up in his face. Use nair and dairs to approach but make sure you come in at an angle so you dont get shield grabbed or utilt-ed. and when he throws grenades dont always bother using pk fire to get rid of them...just grab them and toss em back at him then run at him as it explodes as he will most likely shield or dodge givig you an opening for an attack. wavebounced pk fires will be your friend in this matchup because spacing is crucial. When you knock him off the side you can usually do oe of three things; first off is to just pk thunder after him, second is to go for a bair spike which is rather easy because of the "floaty" effect of his cypher, and last only works if he is going for the ledge...if he does he will most likely go a bit above the ledge which at this time you should just grab him. dont pummel him just keep holding him until he breaks free. after this he wont be able to do aother cypher unless he uses c4 recovery. these are the major things you should watch for.

 

[prOAPC]

PK Thunder ***** his upB

 

[abit_rusty]

*Comes out from under cardboard box*

If you're having trouble finishing off Snake, by 120ish% or more you can start going for the dair->dtilt lock->bat. Snake's frame is kinda tall so it's relatively easy to land. Of course attempting to kill each time this way is forseeable and the Snake player will likely time his techs very well or else space himself more carefully at high percents. Then again this cautiousness can be taken advantage of by becoming more agressive. Also, ditto on using the pk thunder self-propelled attack. I'm pretty sure it outprioritizes nades unless lucas hits the nade at the very end of his flight, basically leaving the snake nothing much to do but shield or dodge. Good way to rack up damage on flat or flat-esque stages.

*goes back under box*

 

[Levitas]

Dude, we should play sometime, abit rusty. I'm in ann arbor too.

Gimme a PM and I'll let you know where my apartment is.

 

[Blackbelt]

Dude, we should play sometime, abit rusty. I'm in ann arbor too.

Gimme a PM and I'll let you know where my apartment is.

I expect to see videos of that match.