Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[ChaosTheoryX]

ya im running on about 2 hours of sleep right now so I'm not in my right mind...now to correct myself on that...his side b attack is slightly faster than lucas' pk fire which is why you should not use it within range of his side b

 

[pianodude700]

yeah lol
except no dedede in their ride mind would side B very often

wow i got an infraction just for saying the word "triple post" for triple posting...ridiculous

 

[Blackbelt]

My goodness, we're getting a whole bunch of different views of this matchups.


I might have to ask the D3 mains to get involved here.


Oh, and it's called an EDIT BUTTON!


Edit: I've actually made a slight change to my views int he initial post.

 

[ZMan]

I think that would be a good idea.

Also there are too many of the same avatars on this page.

 

[pianodude700]

lol yeah confused me too...

 

[Blackbelt]

yeah, there are many conflicting views

I say neutral

Zman says advantage

Piano says disadvantage

the matchup chart says advantage

yeah, I'm calling the D3s

eventually. First let's see if we can settle things amongst ourselves.

 

[pianodude700]

I'm thinking closer to slight advantage to dedede (45-55 lucas, 40-60 lucas), but from my findings, a smart dedede can counter nearly every so called advantage that lucas has. Nair is still good, it's still a strong point when it hits, but dedede can shield the whole thing and grab so fast that nair to jab or nair to f-tilt (some of lucas' best combos IMO) are no longer effective.

A lucas quick enough on his feet to reflect gordo can turn this into a serious advantage. I have not thought to try this yet, I usually wind up blowing it up with PKF. Yes, waddle doo can be absorbed but a smart player WILL NOT let you do it. I have tried.

Maybe I find this so hard because the dedede I have faced knows me so well and has adapted better than me, but it's just an opinion.

On rethinking things, against the avg. dedede that doesn't know how to play lucas too well, I'd say it's about neutral

 

[Blackbelt]

I've been playing Dedede's all day.


I find it's generally neutral, with the slight advantage going to Lucas.


Honestly, the reason lucas the advantage is due to the fact that Dedede is such a gigantic target. It's really hard to miss.

 

[lil cj]

Dedede is no problem at all for Lucas
All he has is that annoying side b and chain grab
Lucas can easily PK Freeze him b/c of his large size
and Lucas out ranges him with PK fire
Easy match up
Jus use your projectiles and Nair combos to rack up damage.
I always beat Dedede's online
Except for one time, when I fought this really good Dedede
Ive never seen a Dedede do so many air combos....lol
I guess he had more skill than me
That will never happen again

 

[pianodude700]

I've been playing Dedede's all day.


I find it's generally neutral, with the slight advantage going to Lucas.


Honestly, the reason lucas the advantage is due to the fact that Dedede is such a gigantic target. It's really hard to miss.

I could agree with this
Honestly, the only reason I don't hand lucas the advantage is dedede's shield, spot dodge, and grab speed. He's easy to hit, but hard to punish and outranges you.

Dedede is no problem at all for Lucas
All he has is that annoying side b and chain grab
Lucas can easily PK Freeze him b/c of his large size
and Lucas out ranges him with PK fire
Easy match up
Jus use your projectiles and Nair combos to rack up damage.
I always beat Dedede's online
Except for one time, when I fought this really good Dedede
Ive never seen a Dedede do so many air combos....lol
I guess he had more skill than me
That will never happen again

Never judge online matches as criteria unless you've got a blue dot, and then maybe.
Most good players refuse to play online anyway.
Just a heads up

 

[PKNintendo]

Do Wario next.

 

[Blackbelt]

Dedede is no problem at all for Lucas
All he has is that annoying side b and chain grab
Lucas can easily PK Freeze him b/c of his large size
and Lucas out ranges him with PK fire
Easy match up
Jus use your projectiles and Nair combos to rack up damage.
I always beat Dedede's online
Except for one time, when I fought this really good Dedede
Ive never seen a Dedede do so many air combos....lol
I guess he had more skill than me
That will never happen again

That one Dedede you lost to?

I'm betting he was the only good Dedede.

I could agree with this
Honestly, the only reason I don't hand lucas the advantage is dedede's shield, spot dodge, and grab speed. He's easy to hit, but hard to punish and outranges you.



Never judge online matches as criteria unless you've got a blue dot, and then maybe.
Most good players refuse to play online anyway.
Just a heads up

Yeah, the range is also a problem. (I hate D3s FTilt so much)

And yeah, online play only gets you so far.

Do Wario next.

Maybe. But I ask that all requests for characters to look into next come in the form of PMs. I want this thread to be about discussing character. No need to waste posts.

 

[Dxt XXII]

I would say 70-30 for Lucas. Like Blackbelt said, he is a giant target and is easy to land nair combos. Waddle dees and tilts force you too keep your distance, but any Lucas should handle that easy.

 

[Blackbelt]

I would say 70-30 for Lucas. Like Blackbelt said, he is a giant target and is easy to land nair combos. Waddle dees and tilts force you too keep your distance, but any Lucas should handle that easy.

You forget the fact that D3 has one of the best shield grabs in the game. And a shield grab leads to a Chaingrab.

And besides, if it was really 70-30, than every Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Samues, and DK would have Lucas as a secondary.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

You forget the fact that D3 has one of the best shield grabs in the game. And a shield grab leads to a Chaingrab.

And besides, if it was really 70-30, than every Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Samues, and DK would have Lucas as a secondary.

ya. The only reason d3's chain grab works is beause of his rdiculously fast and long ranged grab...This is why i suggested staying as far away from him as possible in my previous post, and about the pk freeze. Any player with any sort of relexes can easily shield/spot dodge out of an incoming pk freeze, d3's size doesnt help much with that matter

 

[Blackbelt]

ya. The only reason d3's chain grab works is beause of his rdiculously fast and long ranged grab...This is why i suggested staying as far away from him as possible in my previous post, and about the pk freeze. Any player with any sort of relexes can easily shield/spot dodge out of an incoming pk freeze, d3's size doesnt help much with that matter

You act as if this only reason doesn't matter much.

The D3 chain grab is deadly.

 

[pianodude700]

ya. The only reason d3's chain grab works is beause of his rdiculously fast and long ranged grab...This is why i suggested staying as far away from him as possible in my previous post, and about the pk freeze. Any player with any sort of relexes can easily shield/spot dodge out of an incoming pk freeze, d3's size doesnt help much with that matter

staying away is easier said than done when he can block you with waddle dee and uhm hmmm get closer to you while shielding.

chaingrab is a free 20-40% for dedede. When half his moves can kill at 80 or 90%, maybe less, this can't be taken lightly

 

[Tyr_03]

The best advice I can give for fighting Dedede is that when you're being chaingrabbed you should be smashing up on the c-stick the entire time. This way if the opponent trips or messes up the chaingrab they get an upsmash in the face. Also if you go off an edge, Uair will come out immediately and prevent combos depending on the spacing. Other than that just play smart and get around his side B and you'll be fine.

 

[Galeon]

The best advice I can give for fighting Dedede is that when you're being chaingrabbed you should be smashing up on the c-stick the entire time. This way if the opponent trips or messes up the chaingrab they get an upsmash in the face. Also if you go off an edge, Uair will come out immediately and prevent combos depending on the spacing. Other than that just play smart and get around his side B and you'll be fine.

If the DDD player is prone to d-throwing and watching the reaction of players afterwards, this could get you f-smashed on reaction by the DDD.

(really haven't liked posting in these forums lately but I think I can help out here) There's a much easier way to beat DDD. B-stick for the matchup. I'm sure half the people reading this post are already moving on to the next one but if you want an easier time, hear me out. When Lucas is approaching, his anti-shieldgrab game is amazing, yes. However for everytime you hit that DDD with an ftilt, he's not thinking "**** I better stop grabbing and do something else". He's thinking "Can't wait till he messes up once/guesses wrong so I can give him 24%~+ and edgeguard =D". And as we all know, off the stage Lucas is "his own version of low tier". Taking a sweetspot bair from DDD during the point in your PK thunder where you have to di down and away (ouch...) is usually going to lead to your stock being taken at nearly any percent.

B-sticking is one of the projectiles that DDD can't just plow into for a grab. Even if he runs in, powershields the fire, and runs in for a grab, he won't catch you before you can react. What this means is that b-sticking Lucases are forcing DDD to make an approach where he actually has to make a guess and put himself into unsafe situations. With the normal pk fire, he's going to run in, block the fire, and take you across the stage for thinking you can camp him like that.

Don't get me wrong though. B-sticking isn't anywhere near a free win but it does put the match on a level playing field and this is coming from the guy that plays with the best DDD in Florida.

Other tips: When edgeguarding with PK Thunder, be aware of the situation. If the DDD is below the stage recovering somewhat close to the stage, don't PK Thunder. On reaction, the DDD can up-b, super armor your pk thunder and hit you with his up-b before you have any chance of defending yourself due to the 3-second duration of your pk thunder and it not being fast enough to catch DDD's up-b. If he's far enough away that he couldn't make it with just up-b, yes PK Thunder him. If he's above the stage and a decent distance away, yes pk thunder him because then he'd have to up-b high and you could probably catch him on his descent if you predict correctly. If he's not in a PK Thunder situation, go out there and get him. You should have no fear in this. Go out there and get shameless. Fair him, if he airdodges, double jump dair. Even if you miss both, you'll probably still get back to the stage faster and safer than he will.

He should be scared everytime he knows he's not making it back to the stage with just one or two jumps. And for all that is good, up-smash his up-b if he tries to land on the stage. Even if he cancels it, the weak part will still hit him and leave him in the air with (probably) no jumps. If he doesn't cancel it (which he probably won't since he's DDD, you're Lucas and he has no respect for your character), you'll kill him at like 90. Personally, I love seeing DDD die at that number.

Finally, please don't be ******** in the matchup. If DDD is coming in from really high, don't stand at the edge of the stage like a dumb**** charging up smash. He's gonna fast fall, suck you off the stage, you're gonna die and be depressed. If he's charging a side smash on the stage as you're grabbing the edge, the correct answer is not to jump onto the stage and try to airdodge through him. The correct answer is not to stand up or jump. Just don't **** with it. Wait for it to be done or if he's really close cause he's bad, getup attack him and beat his smash with your invincibility. Don't get off the same way from the edge every time. If you jump dair from the ledge everytime, you're gonna get up tilted eventually.

Now then, have some fun facts.

Fun facts:
-You can absorb the stars (with perfect spacing) from his up-b but... why? If you wanna be fancy, go for it. If you have tap jump on, I'm pretty sure you can cancel your down-b after absorbing the stars with up-smash or up-b. Otherwise, drop it and run up to throw him back off/fair him back off.

-Your d-smash will beat his Inhale if he's drawing you in, the bat too, I think but the d-smash definitely.

-You can absorb the beam from his Waddle Doo for heavy healing and roll out as he approaches. I have been hit on rare occasions by the beam as I tried to roll out so watch out for that.

Like I said, I don't like posting in these forums lately so Iunno if I will again for a bit but I'll try to be helpful. G'luck y'all.

 

[pianodude700]

i dun blame you for not liking to post here
but thanks so much for your input.
cleared up a lot of the things i was trying to say about edgeguarding

 

[Blackbelt]

I'm about ready to call this one 55-45, and move onto the next fighter.


If anyone has any disagreements, now is the time to make them known.

 

[Dxt XXII]

You forget the fact that D3 has one of the best shield grabs in the game. And a shield grab leads to a Chaingrab.

And besides, if it was really 70-30, than every Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Samues, and DK would have Lucas as a secondary.

Yeah, you're right, sorry. I havn't fought a D3 for a while. I just played one and i realized how his advantages.

 

[Blackbelt]

Moving on to Week 7: Wario.


And I added the Marth Summary.

 

[Trozz]

Wario has nothing on PK Fire (he always has to close distance) and it hits him even on the bike. Wario's smashes are lagtastic. Play defensive. If Wario is careless enough to leave his bike on the stage, don't destroy it (otherwise he can make a new one for recovery/approaches).

 

[prOAPC]

i have never played a good Wario, but i've heard that his UpB doesn't sweetspot, so a Dsmash would be nice to punish
shield his bike at least once, and inmediatly attack, the bike won't hit you. (i found that last weekend, when playing with random chars, i was Marth and he was Wario, i shield his sideB and punish with a Usmash)

 

[Barge]

ftilit is really effective against him when hes charging.

 

[Levitas]

Additonally, you can knock wario off his bike with pk fire.

 

[Barge]

Do shiek next, oh god, I effing failed epicly against a shiek user.

 

[Blackbelt]

Wario has nothing on PK Fire (he always has to close distance) and it hits him even on the bike. Wario's smashes are lagtastic. Play defensive. If Wario is careless enough to leave his bike on the stage, don't destroy it (otherwise he can make a new one for recovery/approaches).

Excellent advice

i have never played a good Wario, but i've heard that his UpB doesn't sweetspot, so a Dsmash would be nice to punish
shield his bike at least once, and inmediatly attack, the bike won't hit you. (i found that last weekend, when playing with random chars, i was Marth and he was Wario, i shield his sideB and punish with a Usmash)

Also nice.

ftilit is really effective against him when hes charging.

True. Ftile is fast, and outranges Wario

Additonally, you can knock wario off his bike with pk fire.

Always an excellent option.

Do shiek next, oh god, I effing failed epicly against a shiek user.

Someone didn't read the initial post. I said all requests come in the form of PMs.


And besides, the next 4 guys are set in stone.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

everything i could say about this matchup has alreay been said...pk fire when he tries to close thegap with his motorcycle....and try your best to keep him away from it once you knock him off then focus on getting him off the stage as fast as possible, his recovery options without it is absolutely horrible and you can easily keep him off with some pk thunder mind games...of course a good wario will know to destroy hs cycle as fast as possible, but it never hurts to try. The warios ive fought like to use d air as an initial attack once they get close enough to you, but he has nearly no ways to close the gap fast which gives the advantage to lucas with wave bounced pk fires

 

[Barge]

Oh sorry bout that, didnt see it, its like in the middle of everything, maybe you should add some color coding?

 

[PKNintendo]

Why don't you ask some Wario mains on the matchup? Post it on the Wario boards?

 

[prOAPC]

i have a question
PK Fire can knock off Wario from his bike, but it should be a grounded PKF, SH PKF or FH PKF?

 

[PKNintendo]

It can be a grounded PKF or a SH PKF. Don't know about full hop...

 

[Trozz]

Don't FH PKFire to take him out on a bike. That's just silly (unless he's coming from above).

 

[ZMan]

If he uses bike to recover use PK Thunder to knock him off his bike. It'll gimp him.

 

[Blackbelt]

everything i could say about this matchup has alreay been said...pk fire when he tries to close thegap with his motorcycle....and try your best to keep him away from it once you knock him off then focus on getting him off the stage as fast as possible, his recovery options without it is absolutely horrible and you can easily keep him off with some pk thunder mind games...of course a good wario will know to destroy hs cycle as fast as possible, but it never hurts to try. The warios ive fought like to use d air as an initial attack once they get close enough to you, but he has nearly no ways to close the gap fast which gives the advantage to lucas with wave bounced pk fires

A staged bike is a beautiful thing.

Yeah, they do love the Dair.

Oh sorry bout that, didnt see it, its like in the middle of everything, maybe you should add some color coding?

Yeah, i could make things more colorful. I'll have to do that eventually.

Why don't you ask some Wario mains on the matchup? Post it on the Wario boards?

I don't wanna. And their matchup thread also puts us at 50-50, and all they say is the Grab Release - FSmash doesn't work as well as everyone thought.

i have a question
PK Fire can knock off Wario from his bike, but it should be a grounded PKF, SH PKF or FH PKF?

Grounded or Short hope

It can be a grounded PKF or a SH PKF. Don't know about full hop...

Not full.

Don't FH PKFire to take him out on a bike. That's just silly (unless he's coming from above).

The only time Wario will come from above is when he's recovering, in which case, go for PK Thunder.

 

[Trozz]

Thunder. Or fire. Or an air attack. Or just wait and do a land attack. Whichever you think would be the most surprising.

 

[PKNintendo]

But this isn't enough. Enter the Wario boards and ask for some more input.

 

[Barge]

Can Psi Magnet absorb his fart?