Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[ChaosTheoryX]

no because wario waft does not count as an energy attack

 

[Blackbelt]

But this isn't enough. Enter the Wario boards and ask for some more input.

Fine. I got their attention.


Ball's in their court.

 

[Tyr_03]

Full hop PK Fire is underrated. Obviously it's all about where he's coming from with the bike but it's certainly not useless. If you time it correctly you can jump before touching the ground after a full hop PK Fire so you essentially have no lag and can escape or follow up with a Fair if you missed with PK Fire in the first place or at low percentages. Don't discount it completely. It can be just as useful as grounded and SH PK Fires in the right situations.

 

[Ace55]

Let me make a few things clear. Wario wil not use his bike to approach an opponents that has a projectile that beats it, not that it's that great of an approach anyway. And if for some reason the bike does end up on stage the number one priority of the Wario will be to remove it (eat it, destroy it or drive it off the edge).

When you do hit Wario of his bike while recovering from a low angle (probably the only time he should use it against Lucas anyway), he's pretty much dead, unless he has a fart stored up. Standard Wario recovery nowadays is bike jump, double jump, up b if neccesary, so you are going to need something that's fast enough to hit him during the bike jump. I don't think your up b is gonna cut it.

Wario's Down smash is enormously laggy, but it's also almost never used. Upsmash is almost only used while boost smashing (and it's not that laggy really) because it's also a pretty poor smash. Fsmash has some afterlag (almost no startup though), but it also has super armor and amazing priority.

The thing that does give Wario some trouble about Lucas is his airial priority (or range really, seeing that clearcut priority is only for ground moves). In any head on collision of airials Lucas will win (except maybe a well spaced uair from Wario, the range on that thing is huge).

Now lets get started about Lucas's recovery. I've seen the crazy reverse shooting recovery that you guy's can pull off, but you will always need your second jump. There will be times when you are off the stage without your second jump and in that case, you're in enormous trouble. Jumping out and harasing some one with a slow recovery is a piece of cake for Wario. It's not guite as easy as gimping Ness, where you litarally just have to hover around him to make him die, but a lucas who has to up B of stage is a dead Lucas in my book.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[Blackbelt]

D3 summary added.


Also, starting off Week #8. And please note the notes in the OP.

 

[PKNintendo]

Let me make a few things clear. Wario wil not use his bike to approach an opponents that has a projectile that beats it, not that it's that great of an approach anyway. And if for some reason the bike does end up on stage the number one priority of the Wario will be to remove it (eat it, destroy it or drive it off the edge).

When you do hit Wario of his bike while recovering from a low angle (probably the only time he should use it against Lucas anyway), he's pretty much dead, unless he has a fart stored up. Standard Wario recovery nowadays is bike jump, double jump, up b if neccesary, so you are going to need something that's fast enough to hit him during the bike jump. I don't think your up b is gonna cut it.

Wario's Down smash is enormously laggy, but it's also almost never used. Upsmash is almost only used while boost smashing (and it's not that laggy really) because it's also a pretty poor smash. Fsmash has some afterlag (almost no startup though), but it also has super armor and amazing priority.

The thing that does give Wario some trouble about Lucas is his airial priority (or range really, seeing that clearcut priority is only for ground moves). In any head on collision of airials Lucas will win (except maybe a well spaced uair from Wario, the range on that thing is huge).

Now lets get started about Lucas's recovery. I've seen the crazy reverse shooting recovery that you guy's can pull off, but you will always need your second jump. There will be times when you are off the stage without your second jump and in that case, you're in enormous trouble. Jumping out and harasing some one with a slow recovery is a piece of cake for Wario. It's not guite as easy as gimping Ness, where you litarally just have to hover around him to make him die, but a lucas who has to up B of stage is a dead Lucas in my book.

Hope this helps a bit.

When you are of the stage with a double jump (rare) PKT2 will get you back on the stage since PKT goes through characters for Lucas. Wario won't bite you since you can use PKT has a shield to attack Wario.

Lucas recovery isn't slow actually. It's actually pretty speedy. (Ness is kinda slow)
What score would you give the matchup?

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

I know this is a bit late but I have a new technique that lucas can use against ness. Which is lucas can chain grab ness. I had seen this in a previous post so i decided to test it out last night while i was brawling with some friends, and we all came to the conclusion that it is nearly impossible for ness to get out (although he randomly gets out somtimes) but I say this is a viable technique against ness and something lucas users should know. all you have to do is just like marth can death grab lucas. hold the shield button and mash a. Ness' release animation is just long enough for lucas to get off another. on average i say i got off about 5-7 grabs before he could release.

 

[PKNintendo]

I know this is a bit late but I have a new technique that lucas can use against ness. Which is lucas can chain grab ness. I had seen this in a previous post so i decided to test it out last night while i was brawling with some friends, and we all came to the conclusion that it is nearly impossible for ness to get out (although he randomly gets out somtimes) but I say this is a viable technique against ness and something lucas users should know. all you have to do is just like marth can death grab lucas. hold the shield button and mash a. Ness' release animation is just long enough for lucas to get off another. on average i say i got off about 5-7 grabs before he could release.

The timing is precise but a human can dodge it. DI backwards and spot dodge.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

The timing is precise but a human can dodge it. DI backwards and spot dodge.

ya its possible to get away but the ness player has to time it just right before they get caught in another grab

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
It's not that hard to get out of.

 

[Blackbelt]

Man, does everyone not like Bowser or something?

 

[lil cj]

Bowser is cool and everything but he is no match for Lucas
Its easy to Nair, PK Freeze, and PK Thunder 2 him.
The only thing to look out for is that annoying side B of his,that can be deadly.
Can we do G&W next??
b/c he is Lucas' worst match up IMO
Its almost impossible to beat him w/ Lucas

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Man, does everyone not like Bowser or something?

More like he's not exactly hard. Bowser = Dedede minus Waddle Dees and Chain Grab? We can Magnet his flame, at least. Although I don't think PK Thunder works on the Whirling Fortress.

 

[Tyr_03]

Bowser isn't as bad as people act like he is. In the right hands he can put up a fight. Watch out for Up B out of shield, it'll stop your Nair combos and Dair combos if he shields it initially. You'll basically have to rely on carefully racking up damage with PK Fire, Fairs, jabs, ftilts and anything else you can work in then wait for a mistake to punish with a Fsmash or Dsmash. Still you ought to be winning unless there is a major skill gap. Bowser is just too big of a target.

 

[Trozz]

It's so easy to hit Bowser with PKT. Or anything for that matter. Bowser's pummel in to d-tilt is pretty nasty though.

 

[Dxt XXII]

Nair and jab combos are really easy to pull off against Bowser. Just be carefull with his tilts, which can be annoying.

 

[Blackbelt]

Let's talk about Ike now, shall we?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Aargh, I had a nice reply ready to go, but the university network sucks <censored> and decided to cut me off as I hit submit. So I'll summarize:

-Don't be predictable. It'll earn you a free Counter to the face.
-I'm 99% sure that Ike can hit you with his fsmash while you're rising to the ledge on the Rope Snake but before you get your invincibility frames. This is solved by not trying to snap to the ledge ASAP.
-Ike can't do squat to well-spaced PK Fire. He can Counter them, but you should be out of range of the counterattack if you're using PK Fire.
-PK Thunder owns his recovery.
-He can't do much to Lucas's recovery that won't kill him in the process afaik.

 

[prOAPC]

Ike is slow, but his aerials have IASA, so be careful
his side B recovery is too easy to punish with PK Freeze
jab combo is your best friend in this match
pk fire and ftitl for spacing

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

most of the other threads I’ve read talking about lucas vs ike say that if you spam wave bounced pk fire he can’t get to you...I can tell you right now that this is not true, also know that his range reaches out past his sword so in this fight it is EXTREMELY important to keep far away. Do not try and approach him very much at all, and when you do approach i suggest approaching with a rar air dodge that way you land behind him and facing towards him and can then get in a jab combo to start off. When ike approaches he likes to jump and use forward air with is a bit similar to marth's forward air and covers most of his front. When he approaches at all do not roll backwards away from him because the range on all of his approaches will hit you so roll towards him or spot dodge...your best chance against ike is by being behind him although remember he has his down smash where he swings his sword along the ground in front and then behind him so watch for this attack and spotdodge/power shield and punish the lag after it. Know that wave bounced pk fires shouldn’t be spammed at all use it sparingly to surprise him because if he catches on he can get around it and punish you. When he gets you off the stage he will do one of two things; he will stand on the edge charging up an eruption or will chase after you and try to spike you with his down air. if you see him charging his eruption....use psi magnet to air stall until his eruption releases and then you can go for the edge. If he goes for the spike just pay attention to where he is and dodge or zap jump/magnet pull away from him. That’s most of what I have against ike

 

[Darkwashu]

Lucas is great at spacing and has a nice defensive game,Ike has no projectiles,pretty simple math if you ask me.

We can destroy every option he has to recover,the only thing we have to worry about his Lucas is kinda light,and Ike has good KO power.

 

[Trozz]

If you hit Ike with a PKFire when he does his side-b to recover, he'll drop straight down. Ike will probably stop recovering like this after he gets gimped enough.

 

[Levitas]

He'll stop recovering all-together when you both gimp his side b with your side b and stagespike him out of his up b with your up b.

Direct the PKT around and over the sword during aether and hit his back as he rises for the stagespike.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
Hmm surprisingly hadn't really attempted that myself. Ike annoys the ever loving f*ck out of me. Thanks for the tip Levitas.

 

[Blackbelt]

Now starting week 10: Jigglypuff.


ALso, we now have summaries for all characters we have discussed.

 

[Trozz]

If you can get yourself on a platform, use d-smash (unless you're being attacked from above). Jigglenaught has barely any range and can't hit platforms with grounded attacks like some characters can.

This seems to be an easy matchup.

 

[Levitas]

If she hits you out of your second jump with a weak fair, she can keep hitting you until you can't PKT recover. Therefore, I recommend zap jumping any time she's remotely close to you while recovering.

 

[Dxt XXII]

I don't fight jiggly that much, but the stick is REALLY effective since she is so light in it is so fast.

 

[ZMan]

IF Jiggs uses her Dsmash on you, starholding down. When you start to go off stage, hit Z twice to grab on the ledge to safety.

 

[Trozz]

Jiggs has a super lame d-smash imo. Not too useful.

 

[PKPower]

You under estimated Boozer definitely. Ever heard of grab release combos? A grab release can combo directly into a dtilt, which is one of his best KO moves. DO NOT under estimate Bowser.

 

[Blackbelt]

You under estimated Boozer definitely. Ever heard of grab release combos? A grab release can combo directly into a dtilt, which is one of his best KO moves. DO NOT under estimate Bowser.

That information honestly doesn't change much. He's still a big, slow moving target that can be juggled, camped, and KOed.

 

[Blackbelt]

Let's start discussing Ganondorf.


And don't worry, we'll be back to discussing difficult matchups soon.

And also, please put your thoughts on what the number split on the matchup is (you know, 50-50, 60-40, 100-0, etc)

 

[Trozz]

Ganon's elbow is pretty scary. His d-air is scarier. He is soooo slowwww though. I haven't found anyone who plays a really good Ganon.

l:

 

[Blackbelt]

Alright, back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[prOAPC]

the only attack that Lucas has to stop his dair, is his usmash
shield his turtle, it has 5 hits, then punish with a grab or a jab combo

 

[cutter]

the only attack that Lucas has to stop his dair, is his usmash
shield his turtle, it has 5 hits, then punish with a grab or a jab combo

No, the turtle has 6 hits. If you try to punish the turtle, you get wrecked by the landing hitbox. Also if G&W DIs back while turtling Lucas's shield, Lucas can't grab him.

Overall, this is a nightmare matchup for Lucas. He gets murdered in the air by G&W's disjointed hitboxes, the bucket shuts down all of Lucas's projectiles, and Lucas just has a hard time getting around G&W's fortress of priority.

 

[Trozz]

This IS a nightmare match up. Mastering the zap jump pays off here since you can gain altitude without having to use PKT2.

 

[cutter]

This IS a nightmare match up. Mastering the zap jump pays off here since you can gain altitude without having to use PKT2.

Except G&W's Uair blows Lucas up to his death if he zap jumps.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't have any experience against Lucas really, but I know the Ness vs Mr. Game & Watch matchup very well, and I'm pretty sure the bucket works out the same in both cases.

The bucket isn't going to be very useful against Lucas really. Pk Fire is too low range to bucket effectively, and the lag from the bucket means that Mr. Game & Watch is going to eat one of Lucas's deadly smashes (I haven't done any timing tests, but I bet you get a "free" up smash). Pk Freeze would be great to bucket I guess, but I'm going to assume that you Lucas players have the sense to not use that move (it sucks anyway).

Pk Thunder gets its own paragraph. If you bucket the tail, you end up filling your bucket with junk that makes for a very weak Oil Panic (unless Lucas's tail is stronger than Ness's which I doubt). If you get the head it's a powerful projectile, but competent Lucas players shouldn't be letting that happen. Most people see the bucket as a great gimp. It's an alright gimp... but Lucas has a trick. Remember that Mr. Game & Watch has a very long delay after using the bucket, and Lucas's Pk Thunder gets more height than Mr. Game & Watch's up special if memory serves (which is a difference from Ness who gets pretty similar height). If Mr. Game & Watch jumps over you and pulls out the bucket, don't use Pk Thunder. Just wait and fall, and use Pk Thunder when Mr. Game & Watch is low enough that he will die if he keeps the bucket out. Odds are he will (since putting the bucket away is slow), and you both will die. Once the Mr. Game & Watch player catches onto this gimmick, he will probably pull away after a while. Of course, once he backs off, you can recover as usual (though you will have to aim much better since you are going to be recovering from quite a bit lower). Since Lucas's Pk Thunder passes through targets that aren't able to absorb or reflect it and Mr. Game & Watch lacks a practical spike (his key can spike, but it's very impractical), the trickery against the bucket really reduces the gimping threat Mr. Game & Watch seems to have in the matchup. If you want to ever actually beat a Mr. Game & Watch player as Lucas, I suggest you get familiar with this shenanigan.