Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[PKPower]

Wow. It amazes me that no one knows that you can tech to get enough invincibility frames to not get by GW's dsmash. It's definitely not Lucas's worst matchup. Maybe I'm just good... The GW I play against is pretty good.

I think GW made top because people don't generally know how to deal with him, he is very beatable.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

luigi's recovery is a little better than you give him credit for. his downb actually doesn't suck in this game, and he can get extreme height with it. also, if luigi powershields something its a free uppercut for him, which gets deadly once your in uppercut kill range (50ish for lucas)

 

[Blackbelt]

Wow. It amazes me that no one knows that you can tech to get enough invincibility frames to not get by GW's dsmash. It's definitely not Lucas's worst matchup. Maybe I'm just good... The GW I play against is pretty good.

I think GW made top because people don't generally know how to deal with him, he is very beatable.

Even with it's still Lucas' worst matchup.


G&W just limtis Lucas' options to the point where he can't do much, meanwhile G&W still has plenty of options avaliable.



You're just better than the G&W you play against by a large margin.


And I'm just gonna move onto the next matchup tomorrow or the day after that if no new input comes in for Luigi.

 

[PKPower]

My input for Luigi:

Camp the hell out of Wigi. Use your excellent spacing skills as Lucas to frustrate him. Keep in mind that Wigi players like to do "Combos" out of his fireballs... So randomly whipping out the Magnet (especially in mid air) will stop this, and if in the air, you can totally avoid his fireball and magnet pull away and resume camping.

But... When he gets near you. Man is he a beast. If he starts air "comboing" you then try to get off a Nair to get him away.

All of his reliable kill moves hit up close. The upward aimed Fsmash is amazing for killing, and otherwise when you get to ~130% his other smashes become an issue too. If you see him charging his Side-B then send a PKT1 in his path. I'm pretty sure his Side-B cancels out PKT1 if his head hits it. If he tries this too close and cancels out the PKT1, you will have enough time to get a quick dash attack or fair (depending on the range).

His recovery is excellent, he has many options. Most of these options are stopped by PKT. With his side-b, as stated above, you can cancel it out with a PKT. His Up-B is usually used to where the Wigi player can sweetspot the edge to grab it quickly, but again gimpable by PKT. His down-b can get him some ridiculous height, but you can pretty much cancel out the height he gains with a PKT. His Down-B is very spikeable, once he gets done with the spinning animation there is a small opening where you can get a spike in. This is a great time to get a spike in because his Down B is pretty much his best way of gaining vertical distance, and after using it once in the air the next one will not send him upwards.

Just putting in my input, I have fought some Wigis and watched some Lucas vs Wigi videos to get all of this information.

 

[prOAPC]

i haven't fought a Luigi yet, but for me "theoretically" is better to stop his side B with PKT's tail, then loop it and hit with the side of the head

 

[Blackbelt]

Hmmm....Badass close range, horrible long range, and an easily Thunderable recovery....


I agree with LuigiKng on this one: 60-40, favor of Lucas.


Any disagreements?

 

[Blackbelt]

Now let's discuss Samus.

 

[prOAPC]

right now we're having the "xyro challenge" so it's the perfect time to get some info

 

[Blackbelt]

right now we're having the "xyro challenge" so it's the perfect time to get some info

Indeed.



Speaking of which, I just played Xyro, and have edited my thoughts in the initial post (I was unaware as to just how good that Zair is)

 

[Xyro77]

yes, i ask that all of you just play me 4 matches. wether you win or lose you will learn something.

 

[pianodude700]

I'm trashin you at HOBO 11 son

Back on topic:
Lucas vs. Samus...
Based on my experiences against said Xyro
Lucas will have to be a little more aggressive than normal.
You WILL get outcamped, out spammed, and plain out ranged if you sit around shooting.
You have to get in close to beat samus.
Rely on the speed of that jab combo to beat the close range attacks.
Also use the f-tilt for range.

Dair/nair work nicely because of samus' height.
Be careful about z-air's range.
It is ALWAYS longer than you think.
PK fire goes about the same distance. Counter with this.
Back off when you have to when you're being pressured by z-air.
Because a hit will just lead to more zair/ugly charge shots.

Careful about up-B out of shield and ledgegames.
Edgeguard with PK thunder at a reasonable distance.
Bair spike is just dangerous with that zair flyin around.


Most fun kill: reflect charge shot w/ stick
Xyro knows

 

[Blackbelt]

I'm trashin you at HOBO 11 son

Back on topic:
Lucas vs. Samus...
Based on my experiences against said Xyro
Lucas will have to be a little more aggressive than normal.
You WILL get outcamped, out spammed, and plain out ranged if you sit around shooting.
You have to get in close to beat samus.
Rely on the speed of that jab combo to beat the close range attacks.
Also use the f-tilt for range.

Dair/nair work nicely because of samus' height.
Be careful about z-air's range.
It is ALWAYS longer than you think.
PK fire goes about the same distance. Counter with this.
Back off when you have to when you're being pressured by z-air.
Because a hit will just lead to more zair/ugly charge shots.

Careful about up-B out of shield and ledgegames.
Edgeguard with PK thunder at a reasonable distance.
Bair spike is just dangerous with that zair flyin around.


Most fun kill: reflect charge shot w/ stick
Xyro knows

One question: Who has the advantage in the matchup, in your opinion?

 

[pianodude700]

Hard to call.
I'd have to say lucas, but only by the smallest of margins.
You have to play smart.
55-45

 

[Blackbelt]

Hard to call.
I'd have to say lucas, but only by the smallest of margins.
You have to play smart.
55-45

Indeed, that is what I think.

 

[prOAPC]

pk fire can stop a fully charged shot
you can reflect all her projectiles
she's easy to gimp, dsmash will hit if she's using the grapple, and PKT's tails will stop completly her upB
not sure, but i THINK that her jab has not hitstun, and you can start your jab combo between hers
play smart, Samus has a lot of mindgames to use that charged shot, you should be really good to read minds, otherwise you won't be able to absorb those shots
also, i find really easy to trap Samus in your nair to nair combos, she's really floatly, and her aerials are not that fast to stop your nair
i would say 55-45 Lucas

 

[Blackbelt]

I would like to thank Xyro for his challenge thread, as it was most helpful.


Now than, Let us start our next discussion, the Ice Climbers.


Oh, and I added faces to the OP. You know, make it easier to find the matchup you're looking for. I'll add color later this week.

 

[ZMan]

ICs aren't too bad. I played Melee1 some time ago and my Lucas did very well against him. Nair and PK fire wreck ICs pretty bad. Dsmash and thunder are pretty good in seperating them. It's a good matchup till you get grabbed

I say 60-40 Lucas.

EDIT: You should use this pic for Ike.

 

[Blackbelt]

ICs aren't too bad. I played Melee1 some time ago and my Lucas did very well against him. Nair and PK fire wreck ICs pretty bad. Dsmash and thunder are pretty good in seperating them. It's a good matchup till you get grabbed

I say 60-40 Lucas.

EDIT: You should use this pic for Ike.

Tempting, but no.


And also, I might add that the Ice Climbers boards put this at 50-50.



Are fast ground game (Tilts and Jab Combo) and a Nair that's very good at seperating them is valuable.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

Well, I main Ice Climbers and I secondary Lucas so here are some tips:

1. Don't get grabbed, even if they are solo. Because of Lucas's strange grab-release properties for some strange reason, it's easier to do the simple down chain grab on him to higher percents compared to other characters.

2. If you do a wavebounced PK fire at the Ice Climbers, they can do Ice Block and have the Ice Blocks that appeared in front of them completely cancel the attack rendering the PK fire useless.

3. Ice Climbers have trouble against a PK freeze when they are recovering because Belay has Popo in the spot midair for a brief period before he is pulled up and Squall Hammer makes the two Ice Climbers compacted together in one spinning gyro making them easy targets.

4. Don't even try to Psi Magnet the Ice Blocks. I've seen to many times a Lucas player try to use Psi magnet on the Ice Blocks to absorb them like they could have done in melee. No, it doesn't work anymore. Ice isn't energy, it's a solid.

5. Pk thunder with caution, especially on the ground to chase them in the air. This leaves you wide open for a grab. If you plan on using PK Thunder 2, they can Blizzard to prevent you from doing an damage.

6. Space carefully, esp when they shield. A lot of aerials Lucas does doesn't do enough knockback to prevent yourself from being shield grabbed as you are attacking. Ground attacks are even worse (the stick is very short so don't assume it can hit a target as far as Meta Knight can).

7. Be careful when they jump toward you as your coming back down into the stage. If you aerial dodge, they can use Up aerial with it's lingering hitbox to hit you back up into the air. If you use down aerial to out prioritize up aerial, you can find yourself attacking an invincible Nana box that could kill you as low as 50% depending on how high you are from their second jump.

8. Don't even think of grabbing them unless they are solo. You grab one, the other one attacks you.

In my standards, I would say Ice Climbers 60:40 to Lucas because of the little it takes to kill Lucas's PK fire approach and shield the aerials for a shield grab which in both cases, solo or not, will get you in a long chain grab.

 

[Nitrix]

This matchup definately goes to ICs. They can pretty much gimp Lucas with the ice-blocks and they are just better characters overall.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

Also,

Lucas+Ice Block Lock+ flat land till the edge= say good bye to one of your stocks

because you won't have the ability to use PK Thunder with all those Ice Blocks raining on your forhead unless you are really good at aiming at the edge with PK Thunder 2 while your in the the halfway point of the edge and the death zone.

So, another reason why not to get grabbed.

 

[prOAPC]

i would say 60-40
the actual champion here in Colombia mains Ice Climbers, and it's a really easy match up for me, i just space correctly and don't get grabbed and the rest is piece of cake
also, i'm not afraid to use usmash, it will hit at least one ice climber

 

[Blackbelt]

Well, I main Ice Climbers and I secondary Lucas so here are some tips:

1. Don't get grabbed, even if they are solo. Because of Lucas's strange grab-release properties for some strange reason, it's easier to do the simple down chain grab on him to higher percents compared to other characters.

2. If you do a wavebounced PK fire at the Ice Climbers, they can do Ice Block and have the Ice Blocks that appeared in front of them completely cancel the attack rendering the PK fire useless.

3. Ice Climbers have trouble against a PK freeze when they are recovering because Belay has Popo in the spot midair for a brief period before he is pulled up and Squall Hammer makes the two Ice Climbers compacted together in one spinning gyro making them easy targets.

4. Don't even try to Psi Magnet the Ice Blocks. I've seen to many times a Lucas player try to use Psi magnet on the Ice Blocks to absorb them like they could have done in melee. No, it doesn't work anymore. Ice isn't energy, it's a solid.

5. Pk thunder with caution, especially on the ground to chase them in the air. This leaves you wide open for a grab. If you plan on using PK Thunder 2, they can Blizzard to prevent you from doing an damage.

6. Space carefully, esp when they shield. A lot of aerials Lucas does doesn't do enough knockback to prevent yourself from being shield grabbed as you are attacking. Ground attacks are even worse (the stick is very short so don't assume it can hit a target as far as Meta Knight can).

7. Be careful when they jump toward you as your coming back down into the stage. If you aerial dodge, they can use Up aerial with it's lingering hitbox to hit you back up into the air. If you use down aerial to out prioritize up aerial, you can find yourself attacking an invincible Nana box that could kill you as low as 50% depending on how high you are from their second jump.

8. Don't even think of grabbing them unless they are solo. You grab one, the other one attacks you.

In my standards, I would say Ice Climbers 60:40 to Lucas because of the little it takes to kill Lucas's PK fire approach and shield the aerials for a shield grab which in both cases, solo or not, will get you in a long chain grab.

1. No arguments there.

2. This isn't the case if you do it at the correct height. And besides, they farther they are from you, the better.

3. Yeah, PK Freeze is the prefered gimp here.

4. PSI Magnet doesn't work. However, the blocks are slow enough that you can reflect both of them back with your FSmash.

5. I only suggest PK Thunder for making them dodge while you are attempting to land.

6. Nair and FTile disagree with this.

7. I honestly have never had any trouble recovering against the IC.

8. Lucas doesn't grab much anyway, so this is moot.

This matchup definately goes to ICs. They can pretty much gimp Lucas with the ice-blocks and they are just better characters overall.

Give reasoning.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

1. No arguments there.

2. This isn't the case if you do it at the correct height. And besides, they farther they are from you, the better.

3. Yeah, PK Freeze is the prefered gimp here.

4. PSI Magnet doesn't work. However, the blocks are slow enough that you can reflect both of them back with your FSmash.

5. I only suggest PK Thunder for making them dodge while you are attempting to land.

6. Nair and FTile disagree with this.

7. I honestly have never had any trouble recovering against the IC.

8. Lucas doesn't grab much anyway, so this is moot.



Give reasoning.

2. When they summon Ice Blocks, they Ice Blocks appear at a height just above the face and in front of them just enough so that the wave of fire that comes after PK fire makes contact with and object with blast above their heads.
4. If you reflect Ice Blocks, they will probably be so melted that they will do no damage...
6. Forward Smash says hi and Nair can be grabbed out of if Lucas starts hitting the front of their shields with it.
7. I meant when they are juggling you above the stage. Bad wording on my part.

 

[Blackbelt]

2. When they summon Ice Blocks, they Ice Blocks appear at a height just above the face and in front of them just enough so that the wave of fire that comes after PK fire makes contact with and object with blast above their heads.
4. If you reflect Ice Blocks, they will probably be so melted that they will do no damage...
6. Forward Smash says hi and Nair can be grabbed out of if Lucas starts hitting the front of their shields with it.
7. I meant when they are juggling you above the stage. Bad wording on my part.

4. You're right. But the Ice Blocks will hit other incoming Ice Blocks, thus forcing an approach, or at least a ceasefire.

6. The forward smash is easy to see coming. And if you space the Nair right, you can get out of their gran range (Seriously, IC grab range is pretty bad)

7. You can mess this up with Pk Thunder, and using PSI Magnet to mess with your fall speed, and thus their timing.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

4. You're right. But the Ice Blocks will hit other incoming Ice Blocks, thus forcing an approach, or at least a ceasefire.

6. The forward smash is easy to see coming. And if you space the Nair right, you can get out of their gran range (Seriously, IC grab range is pretty bad)

7. You can mess this up with Pk Thunder, and using PSI Magnet to mess with your fall speed, and thus their timing.

4. What if they are desync Ice Blocking and approaching in that manner.
6. I guess it is. Still, people should be careful approaching if they are shielding.
7. They are pretty floaty so I guess it would depend on the situations when you should be careful about this.

 

[Blackbelt]

4. What if they are desync Ice Blocking and approaching in that manner.
6. I guess it is. Still, people should be careful approaching if they are shielding.
7. They are pretty floaty so I guess it would depend on the situations when you should be careful about this.

4. A bit harder to deal with, but still able to deal with it with the same method.

6. Well, yeah.

7. It's still just another problem with a very simple solution: It's all about the timing.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

So... What would your opinion on the match up be in numbers?

 

[Blackbelt]

so... What Would Your Opinion On The Match Up Be In Numbers?

50-50........

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I always have trouble with Lucas when I go against him. Then again. I never did the Ice Block lock gimp. Sounds amazing..

 

[Nintendogs]

Ive seen many pro Lucas players out of the 5012 matches I played on the SWF FF, and have not lost ONCE to any Lucas (when I was playing IC of course). I think that the matchup is acutally pretty hard for lucas if If the IC player knows what he's doing.

Desynced IB's absolutely beat out and destroy his whole projectile spamming/camping game, and force him to approach from the air with a close range attack. This then leads to a shield grab. Its basically just a loop of death.

I think that this matchup is 6:4 or more for the IC.

 

[prOAPC]

Xyro wrote me a PM with all the thing he learn from the Lucas matches, my comments are in blue

Ok, ill tell you all ive learned and then you can post it on the boards. they will believe you over me anyday.


Things that i recommend:

1. ALL lucas players need to learn the "pk fire/absorb recovery thingy". this totaly caught me off guard and its so fast that my missles cannot change dirction fast enough to knock lucas out of it.
he's talking about the magnet pull, i like to use it a lot, and that's what i did vs him

2. aproach and retreat with pk fire. it pisses me off to no end.
wavebouncing pk fire

3. NEVER ALLOW A SAMUS TO SAVE UP THE CHARGE SHOT!!!!! once i have it, i notice lucas players start to get scared that im holding it and then they begin to do dumb things. fear not the charge shot.
that's true, a Samus main have a lot of ways to hit you with it, don't even try to absorb it, you'll miss

3. Do not try and go off of the stage to gimp me. it wont work.....the only thing ive seen that does work is the pk thunder.
that's what i did and that was what worked

4. N-air to jab ALOT! it eats at my shield and DOES NOT allow me to punish you. its by far the safest thing ive seen a lucas do.
Samus' grab and jab are slow to start, i don't use that a lot, i prefer nair to nair or nair to tilt, but i can't do it in wifi

5. COUNTER PICK levels!!!! i have trouble with lucas on BF and yoshi island.......but NEVER go to FD or pkmn stadium. thats just asking to be spammed.
lol, FD is my favorite stage, that was the only stage i chose. The fight i won was in BF, it is true that BF is Samus' playground, but it's Lucas' too (for me)

 

[Blackbelt]

Ive seen many pro Lucas players out of the 5012 matches I played on the SWF FF, and have not lost ONCE to any Lucas (when I was playing IC of course). I think that the matchup is acutally pretty hard for lucas if If the IC player knows what he's doing.

Desynced IB's absolutely beat out and destroy his whole projectile spamming/camping game, and force him to approach from the air with a close range attack. This then leads to a shield grab. Its basically just a loop of death.

I think that this matchup is 6:4 or more for the IC.

I must respectfully disagree with this notion.


I've played against plenty of ICs on the FF, and I've never lost a 3 game match to any of them while using Lucas.

 

[Darkwashu]

Spacing is your friend, but they can out camp you with Ice Blocks, and we can't absorb them.

Iceys have a crappy grab range, awkward in the air, and are useless alone.

But, they have great grabs, so make sure you dont get close enough and keep yoru distance.
However, correct me if im wrong, but arent we overall faster up close?

The only REAL trouble I can see is trying to go in for the kill with the Iceys, considering you have to be close range for it.


So, I would say that we have a very very slight advantage over the Icey's, if not even.

55-45, Lucas.

 

[ZMan]

One more thing: If they use UpB to recover than use PKT to hit Nana, it'll gimp them :D

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

One more thing: If they use UpB to recover than use PKT to hit Nana, it'll gimp them :D

Wow... You can't hit Nana period when they are doing belay. SHE IS INVINCIBLE. SHE IS COVERED BY A HITBOX WHILE SHE IS BELAYING SO IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GIMP THEM BY ATTEMPTING TO HIT NANA.

 

[Blackbelt]

Wow... You can't hit Nana period when they are doing belay. SHE IS INVINCIBLE. SHE IS COVERED BY A HITBOX WHILE SHE IS BELAYING SO IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GIMP THEM BY ATTEMPTING TO HIT NANA.

Indeed. Check your facts before presenting them.



I'm still going for 50-50.

 

[Blackbelt]

Does anyone else have anything else to add to the discussion?

 

[Darkwashu]

Meh, 50-50 is good...

Who're we doing next?


Juding by the hint, its either Olimar or PT...
And I do horribly against Olimar...<_<

 

[x9whitey9x]

50-50 seems good from what I've read here.
Next one is Fox, fo sho. Come on Darkwashu.