Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[Blackbelt]

Time to talk about DK.

 

[Levitas]

DK hits really hard and has ridiculous range. His ftilt can diffuse a pk fire without it hitting him.

Bowyer's DK is good... and he's a better player than me...

 

[Blackbelt]

DK hits really hard and has ridiculous range. His ftilt can diffuse a pk fire without it hitting him.

Bowyer's DK is good... and he's a better player than me...

I have never seen that.


Are you absolutely certain of this?

 

[Ripple]

I noticed that you said DK has a distinct lack of priority; that is far from the truth. DK's priority actually rivals snake's. i'd say 60-40 for DK because grab release to d smash works oh so well.

 

[Levitas]

Yes, I'm sure he can swipe a pk fire w/o taking any hit.

 

[Blackbelt]

Yes, I'm sure he can swipe a pk fire w/o taking any hit.

Ok, while I usually wouldn't question you, this is really big.


Can i get a video?


Because if this is true, this screws up my ratio just a little bit.

 

[Levitas]

no vids of that. sorry. it's a really strict timing window, and I haven't tested it for all heights of pk fire, but it's definately happened before. If you want, I can get bowyer to say so, too.

 

[Blackbelt]

no vids of that. sorry. it's a really strict timing window, and I haven't tested it for all heights of pk fire, but it's definately happened before. If you want, I can get bowyer to say so, too.

Strict timing?


How strict we talking, and how viable is it to do it in an actual fight?

 

[Darkwashu]

I wish I could upload this replay I have of me 3 stocking this DK....*weeps in a corner*

Oh yeah, Lucas for sure has this matchup.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

for the tilt thing, it can be one of two things, either A. its at the full extent of the ftilt and the pk fire doesn't reach, or B. it hits dk's ghostbox (around his shoulder before the attack's fully out), which blocks a lot of projectiles that should go through, including sheiks needles

also, darkwashu, if you 3 stocked a dk its probably because the dk was bad

dk has a definite advantage in this matchup, and he can cg you to 60% with cargo grab releases, on top of that, he can dsmash out of the cargo grab release, meaning a grab at 94 is a death.

in the air, dk's bair beats everything you got, and on the ground, dk has a range and priority advantage, and his attacks are about as fast as you, your best bet is to bstick and camp him, but even then e can get around that

also, dk has the highest priority you can get on tilts and smashes, because priority is determined by damage and his moves do a lot of damage, i don't know where you got low priority, he out prioritizes all the sword characters

i'd say 60:40 dk because lucas's camp keeps him in the game, but then again, new dk tech came out that allows him to punish slightly laggy attacks with a headbutt (it can punish mks glide attack), lucas has some laggy moves, when someone gets it down it could swing the matchup even more in dks favor

 

[Ripple]

I wish I could upload this replay I have of me 3 stocking this DK....*weeps in a corner*

Oh yeah, Lucas for sure has this matchup.

as bigfoot once said, "if you 2 stock someone, you are good, but if you 3 stock someone, they are bad"

Lucas does not have this match up at all

 

[itsthebigfoot]

as bigfoot once said, "if you 2 stock someone, it's cause you're good, if you 3 stock someone, its cause they're bad"

he seems like a pretty smart dude

 

[ook]

i think itsthebigfoot is a pretty cool guy, eh 2 stockes lucases and doesnt afraid of anything





That said, for some reason I've been playing a LOT of Lucas players in the last couple days. I've tried ftilting their PK fire, and it works sometimes, but the timing is pretty hard and (imo) it's just easier to powershield it.

Lucas does have some laggy attacks (especially his dsmash, one of his killing moves) so it's easy to headbutt him. And his moves have pretty bad range, like his fsmash (one of his other main killing moves). DK can just space and he won't die....

And like bigfoot and ripple said, the cargo release is too good.




Lucas never really gives me any problem with DK, but... I think it's just natural to think your character has good matchups (especially since you know your main so well). So I could just be biased, lol.

Especially since... I don't know who the really good Lucas players are, so I don't know if I've played any yet.

 

[HiddenBowser]

DK beats lucas pretty handily. DK out ranges lucas by a lot, kills him at low percents, lives a long *** time against lucas, and lucas' camping game isn't very effective, partly because DK has huge range and partly because his camping game just sucks.

Ok, while I usually wouldn't question you, this is really big.


Can i get a video?


Because if this is true, this screws up my ratio just a little bit.

we didn't get a video of it but it definitely happened. but why would this screw up the ratio? it's not like pk fire is a good projectile that helps you camp. Its really easy to just power shield it and the resume running.

i'd say 60:40 dk because lucas's camp keeps him in the game, but then again, new dk tech came out that allows him to punish slightly laggy attacks with a headbutt (it can punish mks glide attack), lucas has some laggy moves, when someone gets it down it could swing the matchup even more in dks favor

lucas' camping game is terrible. this matchup is definitely at least 70-30 and if that **** about grab release cg up to 60% is true, it's probably worse than 70-30. also, are you talking about footstool to headbutt? because it's not that helpful.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

i don't know the exact number, but he can cg lucas to around 55-60ish, and cargo release for punches and dsmashes

I haven't played many good lucases, so i didn't wanna presume dk *****, but i guess he does, he has from my experience

 

[Levitas]

I've heard conflicting data on the cargo release.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

lucas can DI it, so you gotta predict him, but you got enough time to predict right most of the time, you can test it if you want

and dsmash works regardless of DI

 

[HiddenBowser]

then that's not a real cg.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

you could di sheiks cg in melee, was still a cg

you can move enough to catch him at any point so long as your don't slip upand go the wrong way, until about 60% where he can di out

 

[prOAPC]

remember that most of Lucas' kills are with gimp. PKT's tail can stop DK's upB and place him in a really bad position

 

[HiddenBowser]

in practice its not that easy.

 

[prOAPC]

maybe not, but i'm too good with PKT
i have a friend that plays with DK, but when i choose Lucas, he choose Yoshi he only choose DK when i play as TL

 

[Trozz]

D-smash can hit DK a million times.
You can hit DK with consecutive n-airs if you can land before the knockback frame hits him away.

 

[Tujex]

From my experience, I see this is slightly in DK's favor...depending on the type of Lucas your fighting. Spammers will get owned, since Lucas (like Ness) leaves himself open after just about every one of his projectiles....so once dodged of blocked, he leaves himself open for punishment.

CQC Lucas's or most likely better players all around, and are more difficult to deal with because of the knockback of his smash attacks. His smaller size makes it easy for DK to kill him at fairly low percentages. His recovery is gimpable since a well-aimed jump or Bair will deal with the annoying PKThunder. Dk outanges the hell out of this kid, and that will be his greatest asset in this match. That, and making sure he keeps his opponent close. Midrange Lucas is much mroe dangerous than a distance spammer or a close-range Lucas...IMO.

 

[Blackbelt]

OK Bowyer, I know you hate playing online, but I'd like to request a few games with you.



It seems obvious to me that I have yet to face a really good DK.



That, and I'm definitely leaning towards a 35-65 here. Maybe 30-70, if certain things are true.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Playing online won't give you much insight to the lucas vs dk matchup because play style is completely different online. It takes completely different mindgames play well online along with a different playstyle. Certain strings of attacks, also become inescapable combos online as well because of the input lag.

And plus you live clear across the US. The lag would be completely unbearable.

So sorry man, I don't mean to sound like a ****, but I'm just not going to play you.

Try going over to the DK boards and searching out a good player near you to play against. Best of luck.

 

[PKNintendo]

for the tilt thing, it can be one of two things, either A. its at the full extent of the ftilt and the pk fire doesn't reach, or B. it hits dk's ghostbox (around his shoulder before the attack's fully out), which blocks a lot of projectiles that should go through, including sheiks needles

also, darkwashu, if you 3 stocked a dk its probably because the dk was bad

dk has a definite advantage in this matchup, and he can cg you to 60% with cargo grab releases, on top of that, he can dsmash out of the cargo grab release, meaning a grab at 94 is a death.

in the air, dk's bair beats everything you got, and on the ground, dk has a range and priority advantage, and his attacks are about as fast as you, your best bet is to bstick and camp him, but even then e can get around that

also, dk has the highest priority you can get on tilts and smashes, because priority is determined by damage and his moves do a lot of damage, i don't know where you got low priority, he out prioritizes all the sword characters

i'd say 60:40 dk because lucas's camp keeps him in the game, but then again, new dk tech came out that allows him to punish slightly laggy attacks with a headbutt (it can punish mks glide attack), lucas has some laggy moves, when someone gets it down it could swing the matchup even more in dks favor

Lies. DK can't grab release Down smash NOR can he cargo infinite. Test with a human please. I don't main Lucas, I know jack on the matchup, but don't state inaccuracies.

With decent DI, Lucas can escape a regrab AND a downsmash.
Hell Ness can do the same (and he has a horrible grab release)

You see, contrary belief states that Lucas has Ness' animation of a grab release. Lucas is similar, but he actually goes farther back and reacts quicker. Ness doesn't, but with DI, the Downsmash won't reach Ness/Lucas, even if you moved while doing it.

On a cpu yes, but on a human no.

Anyway, I want to hear Lucas' Pros in this matchup.

 

[blakinola]

DK Vs Lucas

Fight

DK Pros vs Lucas-
Lives long
Outranges lucas
Out powers lucas
Grab Release Mindgames
Cargo Stage Spike
Relatively easily ledge guarded if not close to stage, and even after PKT2 goes off, lucas is easy pickings

DK Cons vs Lucas
-Large Target--gets hit by everything, PK Fire, Nair, you name it
-Lucas's A, A, A is super good
-DK is susceptible to gimps..once DK goes downwards, that's pretty much it for him
-Lucas is small and nimble

Lucas will always die before DK...he is so light. Even with PK fire--unless the person is a b-sticker, lucas is pretty easy to approach, and you dont even have to perfect shield as you get close. you could even air dodge while advancing.

I give the match to DK based on the pros and the cons--but i don't know what ratio.

 

[prOAPC]

i haven't played a good DK, but i have been told that Lucas has the adv vs large characters

 

[Tyr_03]

Honestly I'd put it at even. I really don't think DK has an advantage but I haven't played any amazing DK players so it's hard for me to say that Lucas has the advantage either. The DK players that I have played I beat pretty soundly without too much effort.

 

[psike]

Doesn't lucas' dair take DK out of his upb? If so, thats definitely a huge disadvantage for DK, lucas can get some killer spikes.

 

[PKNintendo]

Honestly I'd put it at even. I really don't think DK has an advantage but I haven't played any amazing DK players so it's hard for me to say that Lucas has the advantage either. The DK players that I have played I beat pretty soundly without too much effort.

This. And the grab release Dsmash + the cargo CG doesn't even exist lol.

 

[Levitas]

The grab-release combos into Lucas's death if he's at killing percent.

Lucas isn't light, he's midweight. He also isn't heavy and will die against DK pretty early.

Lucas's Dair does hit DK, but DK recovers anyway because he has better vertical recovery than psike thinks.

ProAPC and Tyr 03 have no valid matchup experience, so they could (and are in this case) be wrong.

DK is heavy. He dies late, is hard to space against, and can hit you out of your approaches in too many cases. He's got a good pressure game, and is good enough at approaching to make it work.

DK's cargo spike is trash, just struggle out. It takes like no time to struggle out, so he'll have to throw you prematurely.

Bairs and ftilts are DK's spacing tools. They both have really good range and priority.

DK wins somewhere between a 7:3 and a 6:4, and I'm leaning towards the middle/more advantaged DK region of that.

 

[PKNintendo]

The grab-release combos into Lucas's death if he's at killing percent.

Lucas isn't light, he's midweight. He also isn't heavy and will die against DK pretty early.

Lucas's Dair does hit DK, but DK recovers anyway because he has better vertical recovery than psike thinks.

ProAPC and Tyr 03 have no valid matchup experience, so they could (and are in this case) be wrong.

DK is heavy. He dies late, is hard to space against, and can hit you out of your approaches in too many cases. He's got a good pressure game, and is good enough at approaching to make it work.

DK's cargo spike is trash, just struggle out. It takes like no time to struggle out, so he'll have to throw you prematurely.

Bairs and ftilts are DK's spacing tools. They both have really good range and priority.

DK wins somewhere between a 7:3 and a 6:4, and I'm leaning towards the middle/more advantaged DK region of that.

There. Is. No. Grab. Release. COMBO!

 

[Levitas]

I'm talking about grab release to DSMASH, not grab release to grab.

You need to start understanding my somewhat ambiguously worded posts better.

Edit: seems that that is the point you're contesting.

I'll do some testing on this. my bad if I have bad info here.

 

[Blackbelt]

OK everyone, Homework assignment



Play really good DKs, and also test all of the grab release stuff.


We reconvene tomorrow night.


And also, i was not aware you were on the opposite coast Bowyer. Ah well.

 

[PKNintendo]

I'm talking about grab release to DSMASH, not grab release to grab.

You need to start understanding my somewhat ambiguously worded posts better.

Edit: seems that that is the point you're contesting.

I'll do some testing on this. my bad if I have bad info here.

DK Cannot grab release to DSMASH Lucas. 100% testing.

 

[Blackbelt]

Playing with Ook is most informative.


Few things:


Grab Release to DSmash: Not gonna happen.

Matchup: Definitely DK's favor. Still deciding between 35-63 and 30-70 (Though 30-70 seems more likely at this point)


Most annoying move: the Ftilt. Seriously, that thing is just awesome.


Totally messed up: Brinstar and Norfair (Lucas' favorite stages) are also REALLY good stages for DK.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

grab release from cargo works, i'm quite sure of that

EDIT: for dsmash, also, i said cg until late, not infinite, i don't know where you got infinite

PKNintendo, you keep saying it doesn't work, but have yet to say anything to prove why it doesn't work, and i have used it on every ness and lucas i have faced. given, the only good ones have been ness, but my opponents have tried to di it. its worked on 7 different players in tournament play, only 2 were lucas, because we don't have a good lucas out here, only a few good nesses

 

[Blackbelt]

grab release from cargo works, i'm quite sure of that

EDIT: for dsmash

I notice that you are relatively close to my postition, which would allow a very good connection.


Care to test this out? We go to FD, I let myself be grabbed, and than we begin testing.