ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
its been known for a long time...lucas' grab game just plain sucks. the only time you should be grabbing is with pivot grabbing
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Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy
- Thread starter Levitas
- Start date
soccerdude7200
Smash Journeyman
ya
he can't really even shield grab, which is also very unfortunate.
he can't really even shield grab, which is also very unfortunate.
AndrewCarlson
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Messages
- 367
I agree with an advantage for Pit. I'd say it's closer to 60-40, no more than that.
DemonicTrilogy
Smash Lord
Lol, to think that I always thought Lucas was the anti-Pit...
Levitas
the moon
You were thinking of metaknight, I'm sure. Or maybe game and watch.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
I went with 45-55.
ANyway, now to start talking about Lucario.
ANyway, now to start talking about Lucario.
Tyrael64
Smash Journeyman
My friend is a pretty decent Lucas player, and I'm a dedicated Lucario main, so I'll upload two of our matches since it's vaguely related to the discussion. Hope it helps.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FqnhFYNQPW8
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=t2keRj6A2lU
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FqnhFYNQPW8
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=t2keRj6A2lU
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Come on people, let's get some discussion going.
Levitas
the moon
you're not gonna outrange him in the air or on the ground. Don't fall for traps, such as fsmashing your shield. edgeguarding effectively is a really good way to win.
I think lucario has the advantage, even if you can force him to approach.
I think lucario has the advantage, even if you can force him to approach.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
40-60, 35-65, 30-70 or beyond?
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
lucarios up tilt and down air beat out you down air and up tilt so dont bother trying to use these. all of his smashes have a large amount of lag so you should only approach when you see one comming. use pk frewhen he is charging his fsmash. pk thunder wrecks his recovery. i dont suggest trying to absorb his force palm unless the lucario is over using it and you know he will use it. you wont beat lucario at close range so you will have to annoy him with your pojectiles and run in for short chains of attacks then get away again. this will usually frustratethe lucario causing him to revert to using aura sphere and fsmashes a lot
Levitas
the moon
I don't have enough matchup experience for numbers. There aren't many lucarios in MI. For that matter, the only one in the immediate proximity to me is, well, me.
At chaostheory, his fsmash has massive IASA on his fsmash, and doesn't really use usmash or dsmash.
At chaostheory, his fsmash has massive IASA on his fsmash, and doesn't really use usmash or dsmash.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
I know what you mean.
There's only one Lucario around my area, and we play eachother so much that it comes more down to our playstyles than the actual characters, since we know eachother's styles too well.
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
when im fighting the lucario main we have down here. He will often try and roll behind me to charge a fsmash. fsmash is really the only time ill approach him. i just full hop over him and down air to whatever seems right at the time. other than that lucas shouldnt really approach lucario. force him to approach you
also. do not try and edge camp against lucario. he can sit back an fsmash at the edge which can hit you once your invisibility frames leave. if you do find yourself on the ledge duringthis. do not try and jump/roll/attack up towards the ledge. release down or away from the ledge and jump out and up.
Levitas
the moon
Yeah, but this isn't about approaching in the startup. lucas doesn't have enough time to approach after the fsmash is released.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
Yeah. Lucario has quite a bit of wind up, but little no after lag.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
indeed all that chaos said. dont let him jab you. we can do so much from jabs, ftilt, fsmash, grab, force palm. respect his immediate vicinity. make sure you constantly DI up when he grabs at high percents, otherwise his fthrow and bthrows can kill. i personally see this as a 55-45 for lucario, but this is based off of my limited lucas experience, i have only chaos to play here 
i am open to playing other lucas's though to try to define this matchup more.
i am open to playing other lucas's though to try to define this matchup more.
D. Disciple
Smash Master
If a Lucario is charging their fsmash out of a roll, then I don't think they are really that good of a Lucario.
Anytime a Lucario is doing fsmash, Lucas can weave around it by jump over him and hitting him with his dairs, landing behind him and nairing him, grabbing Lucario or whatever you feel like doing. You need to learn how to bait us Lucario's into doing something that will benefit you, bait a grab or something. You have enough range in your move list to actually hit us and rack up some damage.
Our dair stops your PK thunder projectile, so if we get you under the edge of the stage, you can usually guarantee a stock will be taking off, if we hit your PK thunder with out dair.
I play against Seanson, a very good Lucas main in MN, he did a lot of stuff to keep my Lucario in check both close combat and distance wise. Lucas's Dthrow and uthrow I really hate especially when I'm get at a high percent.
Anytime a Lucario is doing fsmash, Lucas can weave around it by jump over him and hitting him with his dairs, landing behind him and nairing him, grabbing Lucario or whatever you feel like doing. You need to learn how to bait us Lucario's into doing something that will benefit you, bait a grab or something. You have enough range in your move list to actually hit us and rack up some damage.
Our dair stops your PK thunder projectile, so if we get you under the edge of the stage, you can usually guarantee a stock will be taking off, if we hit your PK thunder with out dair.
I play against Seanson, a very good Lucas main in MN, he did a lot of stuff to keep my Lucario in check both close combat and distance wise. Lucas's Dthrow and uthrow I really hate especially when I'm get at a high percent.
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
IIRC, Lucario likes to use uncharged Aura Spheres to keep opponents at bay, which PSI Magnet should shut down when not used point-blank. I'm really behind on Lucario strategy atm though.
That's all I've got. =/
That's all I've got. =/
bludhoundz
Smash Ace
Against my friend who mains Lucas, I simply charge my aurasphere all the way and don't use it. I only use it in situations where he's vulnerable (trying to recover) or like point black, when he really doesn't have much time to Psi Magnet.
Lucas' Usmash > Lucario's dair. However it's kind of laggy, so don't get predictable with it.
If you're using PK fire look out for the DT approach.
Look out for AS when you're recovering, if Lucario is at a high % it can be deadly (killing PKT or just hitting you).
Since Lucario's Fsmash is a spacing tool, you'll probably see his bair or AS as the finisher. Maybe a throw if he's at a high %. Uair is also one of his killers, but if timed right you can stuff it with your dair, I believe.
I think this match is slightly in Lucario's favor.. maybe 60-40
Lucas' Usmash > Lucario's dair. However it's kind of laggy, so don't get predictable with it.
If you're using PK fire look out for the DT approach.
Look out for AS when you're recovering, if Lucario is at a high % it can be deadly (killing PKT or just hitting you).
Since Lucario's Fsmash is a spacing tool, you'll probably see his bair or AS as the finisher. Maybe a throw if he's at a high %. Uair is also one of his killers, but if timed right you can stuff it with your dair, I believe.
I think this match is slightly in Lucario's favor.. maybe 60-40
G-Beast
Smash Ace
our Aura Sphere is not completely shut down, its a very deadly punishing tool and can be used as a follow up to our fair, which is fatal offstage. also, ive noticed that psi magnet has a fair bit of ending lag, is this true? because ive seen lucas users absorb my aura sphere while trying to recover and end up dying because of it. remember that our Aura starts to get deadly around 100% and with the exception of upsmash, im not sure lucas can KO us before that.
also, were not as easy to edgehog/guard as you might think. sure extremespeed has no hitbox, but we are capable of wall clinging if we use into the right wall, and then follow up with a massive wall jump, or we may just flick an aura sphere at you as your dangling if you do it too early. heres something worth remembering.. after we ES into a wall and cling to it, we cant use ES again untill we land on the ground or grab the edge.
also, were not as easy to edgehog/guard as you might think. sure extremespeed has no hitbox, but we are capable of wall clinging if we use into the right wall, and then follow up with a massive wall jump, or we may just flick an aura sphere at you as your dangling if you do it too early. heres something worth remembering.. after we ES into a wall and cling to it, we cant use ES again untill we land on the ground or grab the edge.
Levitas
the moon
I know the range of ES. The problem is that people intercept it with a hit. I'm thinking a Bair would be especially useful for this.
As far as PsiM, we can absorb, then wavezap a magnet-pull, then pkt. a competent lucas will not die like that, unless you're really low and it actually kills lucas off the bottom.
Lucas's dair telegraphs, so it only has a shot of outranging lucario's uair if he's rising. I would imagine that even then, lucario's wins if he's at a decent/high percent.
As far as PsiM, we can absorb, then wavezap a magnet-pull, then pkt. a competent lucas will not die like that, unless you're really low and it actually kills lucas off the bottom.
Lucas's dair telegraphs, so it only has a shot of outranging lucario's uair if he's rising. I would imagine that even then, lucario's wins if he's at a decent/high percent.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
what's ES? could you please name the attacks like bair, upB, nair and that, and not with the name in the pokemon game, same with all characters
Levitas
the moon
ES = extremespeed = up b. Sorry, I'm fond of shorthand.
Tyrael64
Smash Journeyman
My own random thoughts from incessant Lucas v Lucario matches, in no particular order.
Lucas' recovery always surprises me. Always. He can be OFF THE SCREEN and get back with his UpB. It's scary.
Lucas is hard to gimp. Very hard. The UpB can be a killer, even just the bolt (without eruption). 9/10 times, whenever I try to gimp Lucas, I die for it. Lucas' Bair is deadly. Avoid at all costs.
Actually, you know what? Let's try some organization in this post. Keep in mind that I don't know Lucas' moveset down pat off the top of my head, so I might have details wrong for his moves. I'm probably not tellng you anything new about his moves anyway, but this is just what I've observed as a Lucario fighting against them.
Observations, broken down by move:
Dash: Lucas' dash-attack has deceptive range and surprising knockback. Can be a killer at high percentages, which are all too common in a Lucario match. Lucario's dash has low range and even lower knockback. If you shield a Lucario dash, you can punish him with glee.
AAA: Lucas' AAA is a generally decent get-out-of-my-face attack, but mostly useless for much else. Lucario's AA, however, can lead into nasty mixups. The most common is AA-ForcePalm, but it can also go to AA-grab, AA-utilt, AA-Ftilt, plain AAA, or any number of other things. However, Lucas has fairly low weight and can generally spotdodge after the first two AA's. Keep your wits about you and your timing good, and you can spotdodge the AA<blank> shenanigans with few problems.
Ftilt: Lucas' Ftilt (I think it's the little stubby roundhouse kick, right?) is somewhat situational. If Lucario's at low percentages, you can probably chain one or two together, breaking up his rhythm enough to throw in something else. Lucario's Ftilt outranges yours. It hits TWICE, so watch out when you're shielding! It can also be aimed up or down for a surprise hitbox. It comes out fairly quickly and has pretty decent knockback. Expect to see this fairly often.
Dtilt: Lucas' downtilt is a tripping machine, and breaks up Lucario's momentum like nobody's business. Often a good "surprise, biatch!" thing to throw out, but don't rely on it too much unless you're fighting a ground-based Lucario. Lucario's Dtilt, unlike most of the rest of the entire roster, does not trip. However, to make up for it, it's got surprising vertical knockback and can be uesd to shield-snipe your feet. One of Lucario's less-used moves, but still something to keep an eye out for. Don't expect to see it too often, though. A SH is generally sufficient to deal with a Dtilt-spamming Lucario.
Utilt: Lucas' uptilt, like Lucario's, hits all around him. Decent knockback, a good vertical attack if a Lucario's coming down on top of you...but if a Lucario's coming down on you, you can expect to eat a bluefire Dair to the face. More on that in the Usmash section. Lucario's Utilt hits BEHIND him before it hits in front of him, so if you roll behind him, you can bet he's going to try to Utilt you. Utilt also has a surprising amount of hitbox above him, and can usually be chained into 2 hits. 3-hit Utilts are rare unless you're both at low percents.
Fsmash: The bread-and-butter for both of them. Lucas' Fsmash has surprising range and fairly good knockback, especially if improperly DI'd by Lucario. Due to its startup lag, it's good to use when baiting a spotdodge, as the blue jackal will dodge, then eat a branch to the face. WHOCK. Lucario's Fsmash, on the other hand, is scary. With one of the largest Fsmash hitboxes in the game, good speed, a slight lean-back at the start, and a tipper effect at the edge of it (with no sourspot, either) and you have a move that Lucario's going to be throwing at you almost constantly. Or not, depending on playstyle. Fsmash's hitbox should never be underestimated. If you're anywhere in front of Lucario when he launches it, you'll probably get hit. It's that good. Lucas can't roll around it, but he can spotdodge it fairly well. Watch for the little leanback that signals an upcoming Fsmash.
Dsmash: Looks like Lucas is channeling a little Mewtwo here: Pointing at the ground and blasting it with his MIND BULLETS!(lolTenaciousD), Lucas' Dsmash is powerful and deadly. Its lack of range is a problem, but hits through platforms and even behind him slightly! For me, it's one of those moves that makes me wince in pain, right up there with Usmash or a Ike Fsmash. I'm sure you guys can sing Dsmash's praises much more than I can, so I'll let that stand. One thing to note, though, is that if it's countered, you're kind of helpless due to the extended animation. Lucario's Dsmash, on the other hand, has much more range, hits on both sides, and can be a nasty killer when used fresh. It's good for punishing rollers, but its startup lag is so great that I've seen few Lucario's use it all that frequently. Watch out when you're on the edge: Lucario's Dsmash can hit slightly below him as well. If you get hit with Dsmash, you'll be hurting. However, your Fsmash outranges it easily. Just whack Lucario upside the head a few times, that'll teach him.
Usmash: Lucas' Usmash is one of the best in the game, with the largest hitbox, terribying knockback, and staggering damage. If kept fresh, it's a game-ender for sure, and a great scare tactic. Personally, when I see it coming, I freak out and GTFO before the world explodes from the power of it. In terms of gameplay, what that translates to is that it's good to use when Lucario's coming down on you and you're expecting a Dair. Wind up an Usmash and watch him fly. Without SUPERB timing, it can't be airdodged, so there's a wall of pain right there. Good times. Lucario's Usmash, on the other hand, isn't quite as powerful, but has equally wonky hitboxes. It stays out surprisingly long, and even after the blue flames end, it's still out there until he starts turning around. It deals more damage the closer to Lucario's hand it is, but many Lucarios will throw it out in an attempt to snag you with the lingering hitbox. Beware, it even hits on the side of him! Most of the time though, a simple airdodge will deal with it.
Nair: I honestly don't remember what Lucas' Nair does at the moment (this is being typed in the middle of class). I'm 90% sure, though, that you guys know all about it, so I won't review it here. Lucario's Nair, like yours, can autocancel when landed. Often, this chains into an AA<blank>. Additionally, it stays out a VERY long time, so has a surprising amount of hitbox trail with it. It hits the hardest if you're hit with the startup as oppose to the lingering htibox, but it's most often used as part of a Fair combo. More on that in the Fair section.
Fair: I don't remember much about Lucas' Fair, either. It's been a couple months since I've last Brawled, let alone against a Lucas. Lucario's Fair is going to be the move you see most often, hands down. Fair combos like nobody's business. Indeed, fulljump-Fair-Fair-2ndjump-Fair-Dair is one of Lucario's best killing combos. Fair has a surprising hitbox, extending in front of, slightly below, and slightly above him. It comes out fast, ends fast, and its lack of knockback spells trouble for an airborne Lucas. However, fret not! It has very, very short range, which can be dealt with in the normal manner for short-range moves. Lucario has to be practically on top of you to hit you with it. Stay back, bait out some Fairs, then whack him with a Fsmash or PK fire to give him a surprise.
Bair: I’m sure I don’t need to tell you all how great Lucas’ Bair is. One of the nastiest spikes in the game, it’s very hard to recover from (in my experience) and, in conjunction with Lucas’ high aerial maneuverability, gives Lucas a nasty “surprise!” ability in the air. I’ve died countless times when I’ve gone out to Dair a Lucas, only to have him jump around me and Bair me to my doom. Nasty business. Lucario’s Bair is equally nasty, though for different reasons. With one of the longest lingering hitboxes of his moveset (are we seeing a trend here?), Bair can be used by a tricksy Lucario to set up a Wall of Pain second to none. In addition, if he hits you with the puff of flame, it’s got surprising knockback that more often than not sends you offstage. One of my personal favorite tactics is to FastFall a Bair and just create a vertical slash of hitboxey goodness. A RAR’ing Lucario is a nasty thing indeed, as Azen has demonstrated. Keep your eye out for this one. Fortunately, it’s pretty easy to see coming. If he jumps his back towards you, you know what to do.
Dair: Oh boy. This is a doozy on both sides. Lucas’ Dair, like his Bair, is another spike, but only on the last hit. It pops him up a bit, so it’s a good SH’d edgeguard. Unfortunately, it takes a while for that final hit to come out. Usually pretty easy to avoid for a Lucario on his toes (paws?). Lucario’s Dair, on the other hand, is arguably one of the best in the game due to its momentum-canceling properties. Unless he’s just been lauched away, Lucario’s dair COMPLETELY stops his aerial momentum. In addition, it hits twice, has a VERY large hitbox, and packs a whallop. Dair is easily Lucario’s best move, and its versatility makes it a bit unpredictable depending upon the playstyle of the Lucario you’re fighting. Many will try to use it as a stalling tactic in midair to bait a whiffed Utilt out of you. Others will SH Dair on the ground, and due to its momentum-canceling, Lucario never moves anywhere, but there’s suddenly a nasty hitbox hidden under the stage (I call it the Riverdance). Some Lucarios use it offstage as a killer. Others run off the edge and use it as a ledgespike. Watch out! A smart Lucario can Dair your PK Thunder’s bolt, gimping you and letting you fall to your death. Overall, Dair is a fantastic move from Lucario, and something you’ll be seeing very, very often. To deal with it, just stay above him. Whack him with aerials, PK Fires, and anything else you can, just don’t get underneath him. If you’re on the ground and you shield the Dair, most Lucarios will try to Dair you again in case you try to counterattack. Be careful, but be alert. Once you’ve shielded two Dairs, Lucario is usually in range of a grab, so whip that out and pummel away.
Uair: I don’t remember Lucas’ Uair either, but I think it’s a headbutt like Ness’ is. Good htibox, comes out fast, hits hard, overall a great move. Can be a decent counter to Dair if you space it right. Lucario’s Uair, like everything else about him, is deceptive in its hitboxes. He pivots in the air and kicks above him with a blue puff of flame. But beware: not just the flame, but his ENTIRE BODY is a hitbox, even the tip of his tail. The puff, like most of Lucario’s moves, is the deadliest part, and is a good vertical KO, which is bad news for Lucas as a lightweight. Sometimes a Lucario wil throw it out at the end of a Fair combo to catch you off guard, but most Lucarios jump up from the ground and try to juggle you. Like Bair, it’s easy to see coming when he jumps up at you. Airdodge beats it easily. Also, other than the flame and his body, it has no other hitbox, so it’s one of his more vulnerable aerials. Punish as you see fit.
[FONT="]I’ll rant about the B-moves later, but class is over and I have a midterm to study for. *poof*[/FONT]
Lucas' recovery always surprises me. Always. He can be OFF THE SCREEN and get back with his UpB. It's scary.
Lucas is hard to gimp. Very hard. The UpB can be a killer, even just the bolt (without eruption). 9/10 times, whenever I try to gimp Lucas, I die for it. Lucas' Bair is deadly. Avoid at all costs.
Actually, you know what? Let's try some organization in this post. Keep in mind that I don't know Lucas' moveset down pat off the top of my head, so I might have details wrong for his moves. I'm probably not tellng you anything new about his moves anyway, but this is just what I've observed as a Lucario fighting against them.
Observations, broken down by move:
Dash: Lucas' dash-attack has deceptive range and surprising knockback. Can be a killer at high percentages, which are all too common in a Lucario match. Lucario's dash has low range and even lower knockback. If you shield a Lucario dash, you can punish him with glee.
AAA: Lucas' AAA is a generally decent get-out-of-my-face attack, but mostly useless for much else. Lucario's AA, however, can lead into nasty mixups. The most common is AA-ForcePalm, but it can also go to AA-grab, AA-utilt, AA-Ftilt, plain AAA, or any number of other things. However, Lucas has fairly low weight and can generally spotdodge after the first two AA's. Keep your wits about you and your timing good, and you can spotdodge the AA<blank> shenanigans with few problems.
Ftilt: Lucas' Ftilt (I think it's the little stubby roundhouse kick, right?) is somewhat situational. If Lucario's at low percentages, you can probably chain one or two together, breaking up his rhythm enough to throw in something else. Lucario's Ftilt outranges yours. It hits TWICE, so watch out when you're shielding! It can also be aimed up or down for a surprise hitbox. It comes out fairly quickly and has pretty decent knockback. Expect to see this fairly often.
Dtilt: Lucas' downtilt is a tripping machine, and breaks up Lucario's momentum like nobody's business. Often a good "surprise, biatch!" thing to throw out, but don't rely on it too much unless you're fighting a ground-based Lucario. Lucario's Dtilt, unlike most of the rest of the entire roster, does not trip. However, to make up for it, it's got surprising vertical knockback and can be uesd to shield-snipe your feet. One of Lucario's less-used moves, but still something to keep an eye out for. Don't expect to see it too often, though. A SH is generally sufficient to deal with a Dtilt-spamming Lucario.
Utilt: Lucas' uptilt, like Lucario's, hits all around him. Decent knockback, a good vertical attack if a Lucario's coming down on top of you...but if a Lucario's coming down on you, you can expect to eat a bluefire Dair to the face. More on that in the Usmash section. Lucario's Utilt hits BEHIND him before it hits in front of him, so if you roll behind him, you can bet he's going to try to Utilt you. Utilt also has a surprising amount of hitbox above him, and can usually be chained into 2 hits. 3-hit Utilts are rare unless you're both at low percents.
Fsmash: The bread-and-butter for both of them. Lucas' Fsmash has surprising range and fairly good knockback, especially if improperly DI'd by Lucario. Due to its startup lag, it's good to use when baiting a spotdodge, as the blue jackal will dodge, then eat a branch to the face. WHOCK. Lucario's Fsmash, on the other hand, is scary. With one of the largest Fsmash hitboxes in the game, good speed, a slight lean-back at the start, and a tipper effect at the edge of it (with no sourspot, either) and you have a move that Lucario's going to be throwing at you almost constantly. Or not, depending on playstyle. Fsmash's hitbox should never be underestimated. If you're anywhere in front of Lucario when he launches it, you'll probably get hit. It's that good. Lucas can't roll around it, but he can spotdodge it fairly well. Watch for the little leanback that signals an upcoming Fsmash.
Dsmash: Looks like Lucas is channeling a little Mewtwo here: Pointing at the ground and blasting it with his MIND BULLETS!(lolTenaciousD), Lucas' Dsmash is powerful and deadly. Its lack of range is a problem, but hits through platforms and even behind him slightly! For me, it's one of those moves that makes me wince in pain, right up there with Usmash or a Ike Fsmash. I'm sure you guys can sing Dsmash's praises much more than I can, so I'll let that stand. One thing to note, though, is that if it's countered, you're kind of helpless due to the extended animation. Lucario's Dsmash, on the other hand, has much more range, hits on both sides, and can be a nasty killer when used fresh. It's good for punishing rollers, but its startup lag is so great that I've seen few Lucario's use it all that frequently. Watch out when you're on the edge: Lucario's Dsmash can hit slightly below him as well. If you get hit with Dsmash, you'll be hurting. However, your Fsmash outranges it easily. Just whack Lucario upside the head a few times, that'll teach him.
Usmash: Lucas' Usmash is one of the best in the game, with the largest hitbox, terribying knockback, and staggering damage. If kept fresh, it's a game-ender for sure, and a great scare tactic. Personally, when I see it coming, I freak out and GTFO before the world explodes from the power of it. In terms of gameplay, what that translates to is that it's good to use when Lucario's coming down on you and you're expecting a Dair. Wind up an Usmash and watch him fly. Without SUPERB timing, it can't be airdodged, so there's a wall of pain right there. Good times. Lucario's Usmash, on the other hand, isn't quite as powerful, but has equally wonky hitboxes. It stays out surprisingly long, and even after the blue flames end, it's still out there until he starts turning around. It deals more damage the closer to Lucario's hand it is, but many Lucarios will throw it out in an attempt to snag you with the lingering hitbox. Beware, it even hits on the side of him! Most of the time though, a simple airdodge will deal with it.
Nair: I honestly don't remember what Lucas' Nair does at the moment (this is being typed in the middle of class). I'm 90% sure, though, that you guys know all about it, so I won't review it here. Lucario's Nair, like yours, can autocancel when landed. Often, this chains into an AA<blank>. Additionally, it stays out a VERY long time, so has a surprising amount of hitbox trail with it. It hits the hardest if you're hit with the startup as oppose to the lingering htibox, but it's most often used as part of a Fair combo. More on that in the Fair section.
Fair: I don't remember much about Lucas' Fair, either. It's been a couple months since I've last Brawled, let alone against a Lucas. Lucario's Fair is going to be the move you see most often, hands down. Fair combos like nobody's business. Indeed, fulljump-Fair-Fair-2ndjump-Fair-Dair is one of Lucario's best killing combos. Fair has a surprising hitbox, extending in front of, slightly below, and slightly above him. It comes out fast, ends fast, and its lack of knockback spells trouble for an airborne Lucas. However, fret not! It has very, very short range, which can be dealt with in the normal manner for short-range moves. Lucario has to be practically on top of you to hit you with it. Stay back, bait out some Fairs, then whack him with a Fsmash or PK fire to give him a surprise.
Bair: I’m sure I don’t need to tell you all how great Lucas’ Bair is. One of the nastiest spikes in the game, it’s very hard to recover from (in my experience) and, in conjunction with Lucas’ high aerial maneuverability, gives Lucas a nasty “surprise!” ability in the air. I’ve died countless times when I’ve gone out to Dair a Lucas, only to have him jump around me and Bair me to my doom. Nasty business. Lucario’s Bair is equally nasty, though for different reasons. With one of the longest lingering hitboxes of his moveset (are we seeing a trend here?), Bair can be used by a tricksy Lucario to set up a Wall of Pain second to none. In addition, if he hits you with the puff of flame, it’s got surprising knockback that more often than not sends you offstage. One of my personal favorite tactics is to FastFall a Bair and just create a vertical slash of hitboxey goodness. A RAR’ing Lucario is a nasty thing indeed, as Azen has demonstrated. Keep your eye out for this one. Fortunately, it’s pretty easy to see coming. If he jumps his back towards you, you know what to do.
Dair: Oh boy. This is a doozy on both sides. Lucas’ Dair, like his Bair, is another spike, but only on the last hit. It pops him up a bit, so it’s a good SH’d edgeguard. Unfortunately, it takes a while for that final hit to come out. Usually pretty easy to avoid for a Lucario on his toes (paws?). Lucario’s Dair, on the other hand, is arguably one of the best in the game due to its momentum-canceling properties. Unless he’s just been lauched away, Lucario’s dair COMPLETELY stops his aerial momentum. In addition, it hits twice, has a VERY large hitbox, and packs a whallop. Dair is easily Lucario’s best move, and its versatility makes it a bit unpredictable depending upon the playstyle of the Lucario you’re fighting. Many will try to use it as a stalling tactic in midair to bait a whiffed Utilt out of you. Others will SH Dair on the ground, and due to its momentum-canceling, Lucario never moves anywhere, but there’s suddenly a nasty hitbox hidden under the stage (I call it the Riverdance). Some Lucarios use it offstage as a killer. Others run off the edge and use it as a ledgespike. Watch out! A smart Lucario can Dair your PK Thunder’s bolt, gimping you and letting you fall to your death. Overall, Dair is a fantastic move from Lucario, and something you’ll be seeing very, very often. To deal with it, just stay above him. Whack him with aerials, PK Fires, and anything else you can, just don’t get underneath him. If you’re on the ground and you shield the Dair, most Lucarios will try to Dair you again in case you try to counterattack. Be careful, but be alert. Once you’ve shielded two Dairs, Lucario is usually in range of a grab, so whip that out and pummel away.
Uair: I don’t remember Lucas’ Uair either, but I think it’s a headbutt like Ness’ is. Good htibox, comes out fast, hits hard, overall a great move. Can be a decent counter to Dair if you space it right. Lucario’s Uair, like everything else about him, is deceptive in its hitboxes. He pivots in the air and kicks above him with a blue puff of flame. But beware: not just the flame, but his ENTIRE BODY is a hitbox, even the tip of his tail. The puff, like most of Lucario’s moves, is the deadliest part, and is a good vertical KO, which is bad news for Lucas as a lightweight. Sometimes a Lucario wil throw it out at the end of a Fair combo to catch you off guard, but most Lucarios jump up from the ground and try to juggle you. Like Bair, it’s easy to see coming when he jumps up at you. Airdodge beats it easily. Also, other than the flame and his body, it has no other hitbox, so it’s one of his more vulnerable aerials. Punish as you see fit.
[FONT="]I’ll rant about the B-moves later, but class is over and I have a midterm to study for. *poof*[/FONT]
heytallman
CTALL
Either you're just very unlucky against Lucas' dtilt or I am.
In my experience, Lucas' downtilt does not trip people all that often. Granted, it comes out very quickly, so you can usually hit with it a couple times and hopefully trip them then, but it is VERY easy to punish if you keep trying it, especially with a character with such dangerous jab tricks as Lucario.
As for the ftilt, don't discount it, it comes out quite fast, and has deceptive range.
I'd also say don't throw out PSI magnet often in hopes of a random Aura Sphere. Make the Lucario forget that you have this move, and they might try to throw one out randomly to edgeguard. Don't rely on healing to win.
To edgeguard, you can tether the ledge and hang on while dangling as the Lucario goes near, and then you can rise up to avoid a fair or nair, and then hopefully edgehog from there, if the Lucario is far enough away. A well spaced fair can knock the Lucario farther back, I think.
As for the matchup in general, I would say that it is slightly in Lucario's favor, due to general outranging and the assumption that a good Lucario will know how to DI and thus live longer, making use of the aura.
pianodude700
Smash Journeyman
Keef + teef combo > entire cast > lucario > lucas > keef + teef combo > .......dear god a paradox
in all seriousness...
lucario does have a slight edge over lucas IMO
the range he's got is just too good. and overedge combos for that matter.
60-40 lucario
in all seriousness...
lucario does have a slight edge over lucas IMO
the range he's got is just too good. and overedge combos for that matter.
60-40 lucario
heytallman
CTALL
ChaosTheoryX
Smash Lord
HAHAHA you tell him man you tell him. this kids trying to call that combo his own just because he uses it all the time
pianodude700
Smash Journeyman
I know it's the minus combo but you know what sounds cooler 
besides...it was an honorary naming for the houston area lol
i just like sayin it
makes me feel like i'm actually good at this game O_O
besides...it was an honorary naming for the houston area lol
i just like sayin it
makes me feel like i'm actually good at this game O_O
heytallman
CTALL
Well at least you have an honorary naming. I'm still waiting for someone to notice something I do and be like "OH SHI- THE TALL MAN COMBO!!!!"I know it's the minus combo but you know what sounds cooler
besides...it was an honorary naming for the houston area lol
i just like sayin it
makes me feel like i'm actually good at this game O_O
But no such luck.
Anyway, back to Lucario discussion. I'm about to play with a friend who mains Lucario and I can post some knowledge later.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
@Tyrael: You are awesome. And I will fill in some blanks.
Nair: Lucas' best aerial. Autocancels, combos, racks up damage on anyone even remotely heavy or fastfally (Lucario fits the first requirement) Seriously, it's just awesom.
Fair: Not that good. Seriously.
Uair: Yeas, it is the quick headbutt, like Ness.
And yes pianodude, 40-60, favor Lucario, seems about right.
Those lingering hitboxes are what really do it for Lucario.
Edit: Oh, and I added the Wolf summary, and fixed the score (I was wrong. it really is advantage Wolf)
Nair: Lucas' best aerial. Autocancels, combos, racks up damage on anyone even remotely heavy or fastfally (Lucario fits the first requirement) Seriously, it's just awesom.
Fair: Not that good. Seriously.
Uair: Yeas, it is the quick headbutt, like Ness.
And yes pianodude, 40-60, favor Lucario, seems about right.
Those lingering hitboxes are what really do it for Lucario.
Edit: Oh, and I added the Wolf summary, and fixed the score (I was wrong. it really is advantage Wolf)
Mmac
Smash Lord
I made a Compact Universal Matchup Template for you to use, if you want to use it. Just add in the Title/Numbers yourself, and whatever else you want to do with it. If you want me to make you a more Unique design, then PM me with a Rough estimate of what you want.
Levitas
the moon
mmac, that's really cool.
Tyrael64
Smash Journeyman
Lucas vs. Lucario, part 2
Lucas vs. Lucario, part 2
I really should be writing a Shakespeare essay, but I don’t want to.
Neutral B:
For Lucas, it’s a PK Freeze. I can’t offer any insight here, because the Lucas I play against NEVER uses it. EVER. There’s probably a reason, but I don’t know it. I assume it’s lag-tastic like PK Flash is.
On the Lucario side of things, Neutral B is his Aura Sphere(AS), basically a clone of Mewtwo’s Shadow Ball from Melee. When charging, AS actually has the ability to hurt people, just like Mewtwo. Some people say that AS can be used as a great shield-eater, but I’ve never done it or seen it done, so I can’t offer anything on that, either. Indeed, AS is a move that’s completely shut down by Lucas’ PSI Magnet. However, be careful. A smart Lucario charges up an AS whenever he can, when he’s flying in the air, when you’re off the stage, anytime. Once a Lucario has a charged AS stored, he can just sit and fight normally. AS is the biggest beneficiary of Lucario’s fluctuating damage ratios. More on those later. When fully charged, AS will kill your ***. Avoid it or suck it up, just don’t let it hit you at high percentages.
Side B:
Lucas whips out some PK Fire, and just by glancing at your guys’ Lucas guide, I can see you already know all the ins, outs, and shenanigans that can be pulled with this baby, so I won’t bother restating any. The Lucas I fight, strangely, barely ever uses them. However, watch out for Lucario’s DownB, Double Team! If he DTs your PKFire, he can swoop in and hit you. An even smarter Lucario will do a reverse-DT, where he flies TOWARD you when he counters, not away, and use that as a frighteningly quick approach.
Lucario’s SideB is known as Force Palm(FP). FP is a doozy of a move. It comes out quickly, but has a LOT of ending lag, so is easily punished—IF it misses. See, FP has two stages to it: the grab and the flame. The grab is treated like every other throw in the game, except it doesn’t pummel and only throws in one direction, forward and up. AA combos into a FP very nicely, so watch out for that. Lucarios LOVE the AA-FP. Indeed, Lucario has one of the few legitimate chainthrows in the game, thanks to his FP grab. Luckily for you, it only works on heavier characters, while Lucas gets off mostly scot-free. As noted before, if you can spotdodge the FP, you should be good, but spotdodging the FP is trickier than you might think due to its second stage: The flame. The flame, like its name implies, is a little horizontal wisp of blue fire that shoots out from his palm (hence the name of the move). It has quite long range, and has some very strange properties. It can send you rocketing at a downward angle if you DI it wrong, or it can trip you if it nicks you with the tip. Honestly, even I don’t know everything about the FP flame. However, I do know that the grab and the flame have about the same timing as a Fsmash, leading to tricky mindgames where an opponent spotdodges my grab, then gets hit by the flame. It’s pretty hard to avoid the SideB completely, but it CAN be done if you spotdodge at the INSTANT Lucario fires up the move. However, given that with AA-FP, the moment you’re able to dodge is generally the moment Lucario launches the FP, it can be dodged fairly easily. My friend does it to me all the time, infuriating me to no end.
DownB:
Lucas whips out PSI Magnet which, surprisingly, has an actual hitbox, but only at the end of the move. Very strange. I haven’t had it used offensively against me, so I can’t comment on its properties. I will note, however, that it’s ****, **** useful in team matches. Lucario/Lucas is a deadly team, because even a partially charged AS will heal you for 10% or more! Perhaps not THAT good, but I was always surprised by how much Lucas got out of the deal. OM NOM NOM TASTY.
Lucario’s DownB is Double Team(DT). He strikes an awesome pose, and when he’s hit he disappears, then sails in from a diagonal angle to body-tackle you, usually starting from behind you and ending in front of you. There’s enough lag between the activation and the counterattack that it can be shielded, though. As counters go, it’s simultaneously the worst in the game and the best in the game. It’s the worst in the game because it has the highest number of activation frames, which limits it to being used tactically instead of reflexively, but it’s the best in the game because it launches the opponent UPWARD instead of horizontally like Marth’s and Ike’s do. That means that it has killing potential no matter where it’s used on the stage. Additionally, a smart Lucario will have mastered the Reverse DT, where he sails in diagonally from HIS position, ending at YOUR position. This is, IMO, Lucario’s best approach, as it’s fast, has invincibility frames, and gets him up in the enemy’s face. However, it requires being hit to do it, so watch where you’re slinging those PK Fires!
UpB:
PK THUNDEEEERRR is amazing. The little electric ball has shocking amounts of knockback, and can definitely **** up a recovering enemy, but the move’s real power is in the Boost (at least that’s what I call it). The Boost is phenomenal in its range. Lucas can be off the screen and still make it back on Boost alone, it’s that good. To boot, it’s incredibly powerful. Its one failure is that sometimes it bounces you off the stage, killing you. Watch out! A cunning Lucario can Dair the electric ball, gimping you. (as seen in my match at 1:28-- http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=t2keRj6A2lU)
Lucario’s UpB, ExtremeSpeed(ES), is a tricksy move, and can help him survive to insane levels of damage if used correctly. Like the Space Animals, Lucario pauses, then shoots off in a direction of the player’s choosing. Unlike the Animals, though, it can be CURVED, making it truly unpredictable. Even if Lucario’s under the middle of the stage, he can still get back if he curves it right. Even if you’re edgehogging, he can curve right around you. Even if you’re waiting for him to do that, he can still curve downward and wallcling onto the side of the stage (depending on the stage, of course—Yoshi’s Brawl Island is a Lucario favorite due to this). What’s a psychic kid to do in the face of all these curvy shenanigans? Well, there’s a bright spot: ES has no hitboxes, no invincibility frames, and no damage at all. So once you see him start to use it, feel free to chuck a PK Fire into his furry face, that’ll teach him. Granted, by the time the Fire arrives where he was he’s long gone, but hey! They don’t call it ExtremeSpeed for nothing. Additionally, unless the Lucario sweetspots the very edge of the ledge (a hard thing to do), he will suffer considerable landing lag, nearly as bad as Ganondorf. Punish appropriately.
Part 3 coming up soon. Back to Shakespeare.
Lucas vs. Lucario, part 2
I really should be writing a Shakespeare essay, but I don’t want to.
Neutral B:
For Lucas, it’s a PK Freeze. I can’t offer any insight here, because the Lucas I play against NEVER uses it. EVER. There’s probably a reason, but I don’t know it. I assume it’s lag-tastic like PK Flash is.
On the Lucario side of things, Neutral B is his Aura Sphere(AS), basically a clone of Mewtwo’s Shadow Ball from Melee. When charging, AS actually has the ability to hurt people, just like Mewtwo. Some people say that AS can be used as a great shield-eater, but I’ve never done it or seen it done, so I can’t offer anything on that, either. Indeed, AS is a move that’s completely shut down by Lucas’ PSI Magnet. However, be careful. A smart Lucario charges up an AS whenever he can, when he’s flying in the air, when you’re off the stage, anytime. Once a Lucario has a charged AS stored, he can just sit and fight normally. AS is the biggest beneficiary of Lucario’s fluctuating damage ratios. More on those later. When fully charged, AS will kill your ***. Avoid it or suck it up, just don’t let it hit you at high percentages.
Side B:
Lucas whips out some PK Fire, and just by glancing at your guys’ Lucas guide, I can see you already know all the ins, outs, and shenanigans that can be pulled with this baby, so I won’t bother restating any. The Lucas I fight, strangely, barely ever uses them. However, watch out for Lucario’s DownB, Double Team! If he DTs your PKFire, he can swoop in and hit you. An even smarter Lucario will do a reverse-DT, where he flies TOWARD you when he counters, not away, and use that as a frighteningly quick approach.
Lucario’s SideB is known as Force Palm(FP). FP is a doozy of a move. It comes out quickly, but has a LOT of ending lag, so is easily punished—IF it misses. See, FP has two stages to it: the grab and the flame. The grab is treated like every other throw in the game, except it doesn’t pummel and only throws in one direction, forward and up. AA combos into a FP very nicely, so watch out for that. Lucarios LOVE the AA-FP. Indeed, Lucario has one of the few legitimate chainthrows in the game, thanks to his FP grab. Luckily for you, it only works on heavier characters, while Lucas gets off mostly scot-free. As noted before, if you can spotdodge the FP, you should be good, but spotdodging the FP is trickier than you might think due to its second stage: The flame. The flame, like its name implies, is a little horizontal wisp of blue fire that shoots out from his palm (hence the name of the move). It has quite long range, and has some very strange properties. It can send you rocketing at a downward angle if you DI it wrong, or it can trip you if it nicks you with the tip. Honestly, even I don’t know everything about the FP flame. However, I do know that the grab and the flame have about the same timing as a Fsmash, leading to tricky mindgames where an opponent spotdodges my grab, then gets hit by the flame. It’s pretty hard to avoid the SideB completely, but it CAN be done if you spotdodge at the INSTANT Lucario fires up the move. However, given that with AA-FP, the moment you’re able to dodge is generally the moment Lucario launches the FP, it can be dodged fairly easily. My friend does it to me all the time, infuriating me to no end.
DownB:
Lucas whips out PSI Magnet which, surprisingly, has an actual hitbox, but only at the end of the move. Very strange. I haven’t had it used offensively against me, so I can’t comment on its properties. I will note, however, that it’s ****, **** useful in team matches. Lucario/Lucas is a deadly team, because even a partially charged AS will heal you for 10% or more! Perhaps not THAT good, but I was always surprised by how much Lucas got out of the deal. OM NOM NOM TASTY.
Lucario’s DownB is Double Team(DT). He strikes an awesome pose, and when he’s hit he disappears, then sails in from a diagonal angle to body-tackle you, usually starting from behind you and ending in front of you. There’s enough lag between the activation and the counterattack that it can be shielded, though. As counters go, it’s simultaneously the worst in the game and the best in the game. It’s the worst in the game because it has the highest number of activation frames, which limits it to being used tactically instead of reflexively, but it’s the best in the game because it launches the opponent UPWARD instead of horizontally like Marth’s and Ike’s do. That means that it has killing potential no matter where it’s used on the stage. Additionally, a smart Lucario will have mastered the Reverse DT, where he sails in diagonally from HIS position, ending at YOUR position. This is, IMO, Lucario’s best approach, as it’s fast, has invincibility frames, and gets him up in the enemy’s face. However, it requires being hit to do it, so watch where you’re slinging those PK Fires!
UpB:
PK THUNDEEEERRR is amazing. The little electric ball has shocking amounts of knockback, and can definitely **** up a recovering enemy, but the move’s real power is in the Boost (at least that’s what I call it). The Boost is phenomenal in its range. Lucas can be off the screen and still make it back on Boost alone, it’s that good. To boot, it’s incredibly powerful. Its one failure is that sometimes it bounces you off the stage, killing you. Watch out! A cunning Lucario can Dair the electric ball, gimping you. (as seen in my match at 1:28-- http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=t2keRj6A2lU)
Lucario’s UpB, ExtremeSpeed(ES), is a tricksy move, and can help him survive to insane levels of damage if used correctly. Like the Space Animals, Lucario pauses, then shoots off in a direction of the player’s choosing. Unlike the Animals, though, it can be CURVED, making it truly unpredictable. Even if Lucario’s under the middle of the stage, he can still get back if he curves it right. Even if you’re edgehogging, he can curve right around you. Even if you’re waiting for him to do that, he can still curve downward and wallcling onto the side of the stage (depending on the stage, of course—Yoshi’s Brawl Island is a Lucario favorite due to this). What’s a psychic kid to do in the face of all these curvy shenanigans? Well, there’s a bright spot: ES has no hitboxes, no invincibility frames, and no damage at all. So once you see him start to use it, feel free to chuck a PK Fire into his furry face, that’ll teach him. Granted, by the time the Fire arrives where he was he’s long gone, but hey! They don’t call it ExtremeSpeed for nothing. Additionally, unless the Lucario sweetspots the very edge of the ledge (a hard thing to do), he will suffer considerable landing lag, nearly as bad as Ganondorf. Punish appropriately.
Part 3 coming up soon. Back to Shakespeare.
Levitas
the moon
I'm just wondering why you're doing a move analysis for both lucario and lucas. Most people know all of both characters moves, and anyone who is commenting here should know the implications of all of each character's moves. Some of the information you've posted is wrong, too. be careful.
Tyrael64
Smash Journeyman
I'm kind of surprised that I even have to write this disclaimer, but whatever. As I've noted, these are merely my personal observations based upon my own experiences, as a Lucario player, fighting against a Lucas player on a frequent basis. It's kind of implied that your mileage will vary. I never claimed to be the source of all knowledge of either Lucas or Lucario, nor did I say "THIS IS THE WAY IT MUST BE FOR EVERYBODY".
I'm doing a moveset analysis for each character as it relates to this matchup in order to provide advice for Lucas players on what to expect from Lucarios and possibly suggest a few tips for countering them, based upon what I have personally witnessed being used as an effective counter against my personal play style. If you think I'm utterly wrong, off base and completely unhelpful here, I'll stop.
Which parts are wrong?
I'm doing a moveset analysis for each character as it relates to this matchup in order to provide advice for Lucas players on what to expect from Lucarios and possibly suggest a few tips for countering them, based upon what I have personally witnessed being used as an effective counter against my personal play style. If you think I'm utterly wrong, off base and completely unhelpful here, I'll stop.
Which parts are wrong?
SwastikaPyle
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 811
His point is that nobody NEEDS a move analysis. You're basically posting a bunch of information that nobody needs to read.
Tyrael64
Smash Journeyman
TLDR, eh? Nobody's forcing you to read it. Are the entire Lucas boards this unfriendly, or is it just you two? And here I thought that a Lucario matchup thread would welcome anti-Lucario tips from a Lucario player. Apparently not.
Levitas
the moon
I'm sorry to have come across unfriendly, but you have been listing every move and what it does. Tips themselves on how to deal with strategies that revolve around specific moves in either direction from either persective would be the most appropriate information to post here.
It's not so much of a TL:DR situation (I read both posts in their entirity), but rather a situation where you're giving a less-specific FAQ on what each move does than what could be found in a guide on either boards.
Once again, I'm sorry if this gives the wrong impression. I'm trying not to be unfriendly at all, you can ask anyone that posts here, that's not how I am at all.
It's not so much of a TL:DR situation (I read both posts in their entirity), but rather a situation where you're giving a less-specific FAQ on what each move does than what could be found in a guide on either boards.
Once again, I'm sorry if this gives the wrong impression. I'm trying not to be unfriendly at all, you can ask anyone that posts here, that's not how I am at all.