Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[Tyrael64]

Since you responded politely, we can actually get a discussion going. Sweet.

Looking back over it, I think it was intended to be a general guide to Lucario's moves in general, with special regard to ways to defeat each move and the dangers of Lucas using certain moves against him. I recognize that the posting of a general guide is somewhat redundant, as people who check this thread are, by nature, people who already know the ins and outs of their character's moveset and abilities. My mistake was in assuming that the Lucas playerbase wasn't aware of the properties of Lucario's moveset.

I'll go back and post a slimmed down version later, with emphasis on stuff that I think a Lucas player should watch out for. How does that sound to you? An example entry off the top of my sleep-fogged head might be:

Dair:
Stops Lucario's momentum, large disjointed hitbox, one of his more commonly used attacks. Has many uses: SH Dair is an effective shield-snipe, works well as a stagespike, and can also be used to cancel out PK Thunder. Lucas' extended grab range lets him punish a shielded Dair very effectively.

Better?

 

[Blackbelt]

I made a Compact Universal Matchup Template for you to use, if you want to use it. Just add in the Title/Numbers yourself, and whatever else you want to do with it. If you want me to make you a more Unique design, then PM me with a Rough estimate of what you want.

Mmac, you are awesome, and I will be making use of this chart.

Question for Lucas mainers: What fancy stuff do you wanna see on the chart?


And if nothing else comes up about the Lucario discussion to make it something other than 40-60 by tomorrow, we'll move onto the next guy. K?

 

[Deleted member]

40-60 sounds about right.

 

[Blackbelt]

Ok, I know everyone is busy playing Mother 3, but we still have a discussion going on.



Let's talk about Sonic, ok?

 

[aeghrur]

Sonic has a good offstage game so watch for the gimp, he can use springs, his fair sends you forward, his bair can stagespike, his homing attack can get rid of your jump, and his dair can semi-spike if sweetspotted. That said, mix up your recovery so you don't get gimped.

On stage air games though, Lucas's D-air is very helpful against sonic because it has quite a big of priority right? Well, that kind of stops us from the U-throw->U-air star kill. Still watch for sonic's b-air though because it has quite a big of knockback and has decent priority. Sonic's head can hit you too, just sends you the opposite direction. Lucas is pretty small though, so that helps avoid it? :O

Um, grab game, sonic has a good grab game because D-throw sets up a good tech chase, b-throws can be chained, and U-throw is pretty damaging.
F-smash has a little disjoint and good knockback, but pretty bad start up. His U-smash has a bad start-up too. D-smash has IASA frames and can hit you after you spotdodge.
The three main kill moves of a sonic are usually f-smash, d-smash, and b-air so watch for those. as said before, u-throw to u-air can kill too, but your d-air probably stops that.
As for projectiles like PK fire, they usually don't really work well on sonic due to his speed and his side-B invince frames. Also, because of sonics speed, spacing might be harder than usual for Lucas, as for most characters. Um, this is my limited and probably wrong knowledge of Sonic, lol.

 

[Iron Mushroom]

Ok, I know everyone is busy playing Mother 3, but we still have a discussion going on.



Let's talk about Sonic, ok?

I'm not But I will soon!

On Topic: Lucas would beat Sonic easy if the Lucas player was good, because Sonic is cheap, and easy to use. If the Lucas player was good, you'd have no problem deafeting him. If you're cheap like me when Sonic, and you're always running back and forth spamming the A Dash, you'd just use PK Magnet or something to shock him and use Lucas' awesome aerial combos.(I main Sonic too, so I'm not trashing him)

 

[ROOOOY!]

Umm..

As much as I've grown to hate debating match-ups, I'll throw in a few points. Not opinions and random strats, just facts lol.

I know Lucas spaces with PK Fire a lot. Spacing against Sonic is difficult to begin with because of his speed, and just throwing one out may get you punished. It probably won't hamper Sonic's approach either, as his spindash is shield cancellable, and so is his spincharge in the air. Also, spinshot works. For the uninformed, that's where Sonic travels through the air in an arc which covers over half of Final Destination in just under running speed. Couple that with high ground speed, PK Fire is little trouble for Sonic.

Sonic CAN gimp Lucas, it's just more difficult than most Sonic mains will think it is. ._.
With Magnet Pull, Zap Jump, Electrode Popping, Thunder Zooming and all that other crazy **** you guys do even with Sonic's versatile offstage game it might be pretty hard to intercept Lucas. I dunno though, the Lucas' I've played haven't been...able enough to use these recovery techniques unfortunately so I don't know quite how to deal with it :\

This match I think is pretty neutral. SH nair ***** me, but then that's not really match-up specific because that move ***** everyone lol.

EVERY Sonic plays different mind, so it's really hard to do match-up analysis, because I can't speak on behalf of the typical Sonic, only my own. I'll come back later to make points cos I'm busy right now.

 

[prOAPC]

what are Electrode Popping and Thunder Zooming?

 

[Iron Mushroom]

I'm not But I will soon!

On Topic: Lucas would beat Sonic easy if the Lucas player was good, because Sonic is cheap, and easy to use. If the Lucas player was good, you'd have no problem deafeting him. If you're cheap like me when Sonic, and you're always running back and forth spamming the A Dash, you'd just use PK Magnet or something to shock him and use Lucas' awesome aerial combos.(I main Sonic too, so I'm not trashing him)

That's my opinion okay guys? Not necessarily the truth just my opnion. So don't go all crazy about it

 

[Blackbelt]

what are Electrode Popping and Thunder Zooming?

I too wish to know.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I made them up.
Sorry, I thought it was obvious I was exaggerating the number of crazy techs Lucas has lol

 

[Blackbelt]

I made them up.
Sorry, I thought it was obvious I was exaggerating the number of crazy techs Lucas has lol

ah, I see.



No need to exagerate. Lucas does fine exagerating on his own.


Anyway, what ratio would you give this matchup?

 

[Iron Mushroom]

What do you mean? Like 1-10? Uh I'd say 8

 

[aeghrur]

So, do tell about Lucas's points, tactics, habits, and facts. Compared to sonics, that is.

 

[Iron Mushroom]

Sonic=Blue Hedgehog that can walk and talk Lucas=Timid PSI using kid

 

[Blackbelt]

Sonic=Blue Hedgehog that can walk and talk Lucas=Timid PSI using kid

don't be a smartass.

 

[Iron Mushroom]

They're facts right?:D

 

[Umby]

Matchup is close to neutral being slightly in Lucas's favor. Sonic finds a tougher matchup with Ness, due to a more powerful aerial game, and with Lucas not being able to shut down Sonic with his own aerials like Ness can, it's forced to a review of both of their ground games, where Sonic excels.

PK Fire is only barely a hindrance in this matchup. Most of the time Sonic can shield dash and space himself with ftilt. It's pretty much the same thing with anything else on the ground, except maybe fsmash/dsmash. Definitely not the case vs Lucas's ftilt/utilt.

 

[ROOOOY!]

ah, I see.



No need to exagerate. Lucas does fine exagerating on his own.


Anyway, what ratio would you give this matchup?

Ah I meant to answer this earlier but sort of forgot.

Ehh, probably 50:50, 45:55 against Sonic at worst.

 

[aeghrur]

Matchup is close to neutral being slightly in Lucas's favor. Sonic finds a tougher matchup with Ness, due to a more powerful aerial game, and with Lucas not being able to shut down Sonic with his own aerials like Ness can, it's forced to a review of both of their ground games, where Sonic excels.

PK Fire is only barely a hindrance in this matchup. Most of the time Sonic can shield dash and space himself with ftilt. It's pretty much the same thing with anything else on the ground, except maybe fsmash/dsmash. Definitely not the case vs Lucas's ftilt/utilt.

I'm not so sure umby, I think Lucas's F-tilt has a little more range than Sonics. But aside from that, very true. :O

 

[Blackbelt]

Matchup is close to neutral being slightly in Lucas's favor. Sonic finds a tougher matchup with Ness, due to a more powerful aerial game, and with Lucas not being able to shut down Sonic with his own aerials like Ness can, it's forced to a review of both of their ground games, where Sonic excels.

PK Fire is only barely a hindrance in this matchup. Most of the time Sonic can shield dash and space himself with ftilt. It's pretty much the same thing with anything else on the ground, except maybe fsmash/dsmash. Definitely not the case vs Lucas's ftilt/utilt.

It is hard to argue with this logic.

And yeah, we should do a Ftilt to Ftilt comparison.

 

[Iron Mushroom]

^ Now that's a true statement!

Ah I meant to answer this earlier but sort of forgot.

Ehh, probably 50:50, 45:55 against Sonic at worst.

Oh, you mean like that! Yeah, I guess I'd have to agree with him

 

[Umby]

I meant that Lucas using his ftilt isn't too bad when compared to his other ground options vs Sonic.

 

[Blackbelt]

I meant that Lucas using his ftilt isn't too bad when compared to his other ground options vs Sonic.

Actually, Lucas' Jab combo is good too, unless Sonic has something Frame 2 or faster that I don't know about.

 

[Chis]

I made them up.
Sorry, I thought it was obvious I was exaggerating the number of crazy techs Lucas has lol

You mean zap jump and magnet pull right?

 

[Tenki]

^no, he was really making things up

I'm not But I will soon!

On Topic: Lucas would beat Sonic easy if the Lucas player was good, because Sonic is cheap, and easy to use. If the Lucas player was good, you'd have no problem deafeting him. If you're cheap like me when Sonic, and you're always running back and forth spamming the A Dash, you'd just use PK Magnet or something to shock him and use Lucas' awesome aerial combos.(I main Sonic too, so I'm not trashing him)

That's my opinion okay guys? Not necessarily the truth just my opnion. So don't go all crazy about it

I know he already johned about it, but it's just so juicy <3

Lucas would beat Sonic easy if the Lucas was good and the Sonic played as bad as you, but what if both the Sonic and the Lucas player were good? lol

There are MANY people who main Sonic, but are far from using him at a competitive level. No, far from using him at a mediocre level.

Now, if you were cheap like me when Sonic, you'd always be trying to trick your opponent into a movement where you can do a sliding powershield and break the spacing with a grab, then forcing your opponent into a limited option position with D-throw or U-throw, and following up their predicted movement with another grab or a spindash combo, to set up for an off-stage damaging (and possibly gimp) game until you can mindgame a F-smash/D-smash.

There are a few cases of Sonic mains who don't participate in the Sonic boards but have noteworthy Sonics, but I'm pretty sure this isn't one of them.


And now for the Lucas vs Sonic matchup stuff:

Matchup is close to neutral being slightly in Lucas's favor. Sonic finds a tougher matchup with Ness, due to a more powerful aerial game, and with Lucas not being able to shut down Sonic with his own aerials like Ness can, it's forced to a review of both of their ground games, where Sonic excels.

PK Fire is only barely a hindrance in this matchup. Most of the time Sonic can shield dash and space himself with ftilt. It's pretty much the same thing with anything else on the ground, except maybe fsmash/dsmash. Definitely not the case vs Lucas's ftilt/utilt.

At the same time, Lucas can just continue on with a SH aerial game. I'll agree with Umby and say it's not as hard to break as Ness's aerials, but it's still troublesome for Sonic if you can constantly keep in the air and away from Sonic's ground game (grabs and tilts).

I believe Lucas' N-air isn't too bad in this matchup.

Actually, Lucas' Jab combo is good too, unless Sonic has something Frame 2 or faster that I don't know about.

Yeah, Lucas' jabs aren't bad.


I can't say too much about this matchup since I don't have alot of Lucas experience. The ones that did the best against me were on wifi, and the best Lucas I fought offline wasn't even a Lucas main AFAIK.

Camp Spring>D-airs with U-smash? lol

 

[ZMan]

Hey Tenki I'm getting at competitve level with my Sonic.

Also Blackbelt, you should add quotes/posts from people about the respective matchups. Videos are good too.

 

[Blackbelt]

Hey Tenki I'm getting at competitve level with my Sonic.

Also Blackbelt, you should add quotes/posts from people about the respective matchups. Videos are good too.

I can agree with the quotes, but videos don't show much as far as matchup ratio is concerned, unless it's showing a specific technique one of the characters can use to make it in their favor (DK Cargo-DSmash, Marth Grab Release-Tipper FSmash, etc.)

 

[Iron Mushroom]

Videos would be good. But the question is, do you now how to tell if it is hacked?

 

[aeghrur]

Okay, let me add some vids of some sonic techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJS4D-7d9tc - ASC, it's shield cancelable too. :O
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XPazo3otHo&feature=related - Spinshot, a good approach in case you guys plan to PK fire camp a lot. =/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxwf3VDtQJs&feature=related Super roll(hardly used I think, lol) and spindash pivot shield grab. the second one is pretty useful. :O
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c&feature=related And finally, this is just a good sonic guide to what he can do. you don't have to watch it considering it's... 10 minutes...

 

[Jim Morrison]

you cant count sonic out, he's just gonna play dirty, dirty mindgaemz. first he's gonna side-taunt. then he's gonna grab you, but not throw. instead release, RAR, and do a bair in yo face

 

[aeghrur]

you cant count sonic out, he's just gonna play dirty, dirty mindgaemz. first he's gonna side-taunt. then he's gonna grab you, but not throw. instead release, RAR, and do a bair in yo face

>_>, I'm serious right now, get out.
Mindgames don't count. Jeez, that's like, basic match up discussion 101 nowdays.

 

[Iron Mushroom]

Okay, let me add some vids of some sonic techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJS4D-7d9tc - ASC, it's shield cancelable too. :O
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XPazo3otHo&feature=related - Spinshot, a good approach in case you guys plan to PK fire camp a lot. =/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxwf3VDtQJs&feature=related Super roll(hardly used I think, lol) and spindash pivot shield grab. the second one is pretty useful. :O
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c&feature=related And finally, this is just a good sonic guide to what he can do. you don't have to watch it considering it's... 10 minutes...

Oh Man those where cool! Those will definentally help me in future brawls!

 

[Irsic]

One thing I really noticed about this matchup that Lucas' utilt can really grab Sonic from the ground when he's spindashing or running. It pretty much out prioritizes everything Sonic has and it's really hard for him to beat.

 

[aeghrur]

One thing I really noticed about this matchup that Lucas' utilt can really grab Sonic from the ground when he's spindashing or running. It pretty much out prioritizes everything Sonic has and it's really hard for him to beat.

Sigh... >_>
I hate it when people say this. Also, didn't know Lucas's utilt hit horizontally... It's not like it's snake's utilt anyhow...
F-tilt
Shield grab
B-air(hopefully)
Invince frames on side-B can break through
ASC landing frames have high priority.
Dash attack?
Invince frames on hyphen smash. >_>

 

[Blackbelt]

I'll be honest: I never realized Sonic was this complex.



Anyway, at first I was going for 60-40, but right now I'm looking at a 55-45.

 

[Iron Mushroom]

I'll be honest: I never realized Sonic was this complex.



Anyway, at first I was going for 60-40, but right now I'm looking at a 55-45.

You and me both! I never knew such combos could be possible from him!

 

[Tenki]

There are MANY people who main Sonic, but are far from using him at a competitive level. No, far from using him at a mediocre level.
...

There are a few cases of Sonic mains who don't participate in the Sonic boards but have noteworthy Sonics, but I'm pretty sure this isn't one of them.

lololololololol

Oh Man those where cool! Those will definentally help me in future brawls!

I'm too good cheap.

Okay, let me add some vids of some sonic techniques.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c&feature=related And finally, this is just a good sonic guide to what he can do. you don't have to watch it considering it's... 10 minutes...

You could have just linked to that one. It covers almost everything tech-wise except spinshot and instant ledgehog and stuff.

I'm pretty sure Lucas as a character (this means, mindgames/player skill not taken into account) should have about a slight advantage on Sonic, movesetwise. His aerials aren't very laggy so if you adjust and keep aerial, it should be easy to stay away from getting grabbed. Avoid laggy moves in this matchup and play safe and stuff. Yeah.

If you wanna go one step ahead and take into account running speed, screwing up aerials with sliding shields and Lucas's ground game/special attack punishability, it might be more neutralish.

 

[Browny]

btw, sonic might be able grab-release chaingrab lucas across the stage unless he jabs out of it, which will work every time (every time ive tested it it works, but its pointless since its escapable) you can follow up a GR with a dash attack easy enough, maybe an SH fair i havent really tried it much.

Also i cant test right now but i suspect lucas is succeptible to the same grab-release dtilt from sonic on Ness, which will put lucas on the ground quite close to sonic at low %'s. if the dtilt trips (about 30% chance) it leads into a usmash for an inescapable 26% damage from 0%. if it doesnt trip, sonic can just go for a dash attack anyway.

 

[Tenki]

Also i cant test right now but i suspect lucas is succeptible to the same grab-release dtilt from sonic on Ness, which will put lucas on the ground quite close to sonic at low %'s. if the dtilt trips (about 30% chance) it leads into a usmash for an inescapable 26% damage from 0%. if it doesnt trip, sonic can just go for a dash attack anyway.

Lucas might slide too far for an 'inescapable' d-tilt, but I might be thinking of another character right now. I do D-tilt out of grab pretty often, but I don't remember if it worked on Lucas or not.

`.`; yeah. Don't take our word for it.