Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[pyrimadines]

I'd say 45-55 because once you get her off stage you can rack up some nice damage edgeguarding her and she is fairly easy to kill with your attacks once they land.

EDIT: DK is very frustrating against my Lucas. My friend mains him and I have to constantly be wary of stage spiking once I combo his DK to the ledge and his D-smash is ridiculous especially with the (d-throw to d-smash?) combo from what I've heard. It also takes forever to kill him. I end up damaging his DK to around 17x-2xx before he dies, where he can kill me at 6x+.
DK Punch's superarmor is the devil to lucas' shpk fires.

 

[Praxis]

Good games Irsic.

Lag was kind of bad...definitely changed the matchup way too much. You couldn't punish my dair at ALL because of it (though it's hard to punish normally). But in my case, I couldn't jab grab well, and I couldn't CG you at all because by the time I'd see you slide out of the grab, you'd already be jumping away thanks to lag. Also, you had a harder time edgeguarding me with the lag.

I think offline this'd be really bad for Lucas because of the CG, which simply cannot be done online. Unlike most characters, Peach lands grabs VERY often- every jab turns in to a grab, and since all of her aerials can be autocancelled...yeah. With the ability to CG lucas, that'd be nasty. More importantly, the CG would refresh my moveset, letting me spam autocancelled unpunishable fairs without worrying about being unable to kill later because I can get grabs if people shield them.

Note that I didn't know about this CG before today so take this for what you will. I'll go test it on some CPUs.

Also, I'd do a lot more damage than just 30% off of a dair. Offline it's usually around 50-55% (and I did get lucky and predict your DI and do that online too).

But your edgeguarding ability offline might make up for that. PK Freeze seems effective to force me to drop my float and rely on less accurate forward-B's.

I'm not sure whether to rate it 60-40 or 55-45 either :/ Offline would change the matchup so much.


Oh, for everyone wondering the results: I won on Battlefield, Final Destination, Brinstar, Green Greens, Jungle Japes, and Halberd. All matches were two stock @ high percentages remaining to me, except Battlefield which was really close on the last stock.

I lost on Rainbow Cruise. I got ***** on the last stock xD

Honestly, I think Final Destination is Lucas' best choice vs Peach. Pick FD and camp her to death with retreating PK fires. Peach can't deal with camping well. Any stage where Peach has ways to approach you will get you *****.

 

[Iron Mushroom]

Just so you guys know, Peach is one of the characters that can dash grab chain grab Lucas. A forward tilt MAY be gauranteed out of release grab, and it kills Lucas at 130% if it's fully fresh and sweetspotted. I don't know if its guaranteed but it always seems to work. Lucas can DI and Shield the tilt. Tested. How do you CG Lucas? Why does this happen? Lucas only? (does it affect Ness?)

I never seen a Peach chain-grab a Lucas. But yes, it is very possible to chain-grab them both. Especially Ice Climbers

 

[PKNintendo]

I never seen a Peach chain-grab a Lucas. But yes, it is very possible to chain-grab them both. Especially Ice Climbers

How though? And IC actually CG them LESS effective then usually. (Fthrow CG is harder to perform I believe)

 

[Iron Mushroom]

I don't really know.... Just a online/brawl friend does it to me sometimes. He the best brawler I know, so he can do weird stuff.

 

[TechnoMonster]

So guise I heard that you put DK as one of your worst matchups. Chaingrab or no, you need to step it up.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5651697&posted=1#post5651697

 

[Levitas]

Um, DK is a bad matchup for lucas. I don't know what ****ty DK player you've been playing with.

 

[ZMan]

So guise I heard that you put DK as one of your worst matchups. Chaingrab or no, you need to step it up.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5651697&posted=1#post5651697

Hahaha I love you, yes homo.

 

[Levitas]

I played w/ Ankoku's peach a bit. I agree w/ 6:4 her.

 

[Irsic]

It's more in lull of a 6:4 matchup. If you play your CP's right along with playing Final Dest as your neutral, you may be able to bag yourself a win. Tough match up, but can be dealt with.

 

[Blackbelt]

I am thinking 40-60.


If anyone has any arguments to the otherwise, speak now, or shut up.


And technomonster, you're not all that smart.

 

[Iron Mushroom]

This matchup didn't attract a lot of attention

 

[Blackbelt]

This matchup didn't attract a lot of attention

If you have nothing relevant to say, than don't waste posts.

 

[ZMan]

If you just want him to stop spamming just get Youko or someone in here to warn his ***. That'll learn him

So, besides FD, whats a good CP against Peach?

 

[Blackbelt]

If you just want him to stop spamming just get Youko or someone in here to warn his ***. That'll learn him

So, besides FD, whats a good CP against Peach?

I find Brinstar quite effective, due to the painfully close blastlines.


Edit: Now that I think about it, someone should make a stage discussion thread.

 

[Iron Mushroom]

If you have nothing relevant to say, than don't waste posts.

Okay then......
I'm not trying to annoy you, I'm just saying that so you know I aknowleged your post.

 

[ZMan]

I find Brinstar quite effective, due to the painfully close blastlines.


Edit: Now that I think about it, someone should make a stage discussion thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4353697

 

[Praxis]

I find Brinstar quite effective, due to the painfully close blastlines.


Edit: Now that I think about it, someone should make a stage discussion thread.

Peach can float over the uneven terrain, kill with fair quick, and forward-B into the side platforms to release a large explosion hitbox during your recovery...

Might still be good for Lucas, but I'm not sure. I two-stocked Irsic there, but it may have been a fluke...

 

[Irsic]

I was having extreme difficulty fighting against Peach on Brinstar. The effective counterpicks were Rainbow Cruise (was really able to fight peach well on the boat, especially with the raised platform on the right), Yoshi's Island seemed like a good CP aswell, and...thats all I can think of right now. You may really want to avoid Brinstar & Peach. More info is needed really before I can make an accurate analysis on this stage vs. Peach. The breakable stage parts helped Peach more than hurt, so it would seem its an advantageous stage for both characters.

 

[heytallman]

So it sounds like everyone, for the most part, agrees with 40/60 in Peach's favor? Can we move on to the next matchup then?

 

[Blackbelt]

Okay then......
I'm not trying to annoy you, I'm just saying that so you know I aknowleged your post.

Gee, I was unaware that my post asked you to ackowledge it.

Peach can float over the uneven terrain, kill with fair quick, and forward-B into the side platforms to release a large explosion hitbox during your recovery...

Might still be good for Lucas, but I'm not sure. I two-stocked Irsic there, but it may have been a fluke...

Brinstar is one of Lucas' best stages, and I've never lost to a Peach there.

I was having extreme difficulty fighting against Peach on Brinstar. The effective counterpicks were Rainbow Cruise (was really able to fight peach well on the boat, especially with the raised platform on the right), Yoshi's Island seemed like a good CP aswell, and...thats all I can think of right now. You may really want to avoid Brinstar & Peach. More info is needed really before I can make an accurate analysis on this stage vs. Peach. The breakable stage parts helped Peach more than hurt, so it would seem its an advantageous stage for both characters.

Again, I find Brinstar most effective against Peach.


Though an indepoth analysis would be most welcome.

So it sounds like everyone, for the most part, agrees with 40/60 in Peach's favor? Can we move on to the next matchup then?

Indeed. I will edit the opening post now with our next matchup: Olimar.



Please, start discussing as I make the neccesary changes.

 

[heytallman]

Well I am not too knowledgeable on this matchup, but here's what I have on it.

Olimar generally has a better grab range (for most Pikmin, not the purple one IIRC), and his side smash and side b have great range. The C stick is definitely Olimar's best friend.

Gimping Olimar seems like it would be unbelievably easy (as it is for most characters lol). PK thunder destroys him when he's trying to recover, or you can just rope snake the edge and climb up right as he tries to grab the edge, you can still beat his recovery. Gimping Lucas also seems like it would be kinda easy with Olimar, side b can stop him from using PK thunder.

Unfortunately, as I said before, I have very very little experience against Olimar, and everything I said may be incredibly, incredibly wrong, but I would definitely say that spacing is insanely important in this matchup. I don't have an estimate as to how the numbers would end up for this one, I'll leave that to the rest of you to decide.

edit: downsmash seems to be a helpful move in this matchup, it can kill pikmin he throws at you with side b and fsmash

 

[Stealth Raptor]

you cannot reflect his smashes. you will just hit the pikmin. only the pikmin toss can be reflected.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Olimar is about 65-35 in Olimar's favor due to his grab/f-air camp, and the fact that his red pikmin don't care at all about your PK fire, nor do his yellow about a lot of things. Olimar, much more so than even Toon Link, can camp Lucas very hard because he can spam damaging attacks faster than you can reflect them/bat them away, and his grab can do about 40% at low % (dthrow-u-smash-u-air).

Oli can also edgeguard with d-air, pikmin f-smash and Cody toss (the fat pikmin), and his up-B if you go high. In combination its not much of a wall but you will occasionally get hit and die. If he misses he can still get a free grab if you land on the stage.

Lucas' real options are to PKF very liberally, F-tilt to swat away pikmin while f-airing a lot, and when you feel it go for d-air to jab setups and try to really keep the pressure on once he's in the air. Greed will get you killed in this matchup so don't get greedy.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
I disagree completely. The fact that your PK Fire explodes makes red pikmin immunity not that big of a deal. Also pikmin are great for extending your Dsmash. Olimar is not that good at camping Lucas if you have good spacing. TL is a way worse camper. Olimar's grab is amazing but honestly there's not much else to watch out for and it isn't enough to give Olimar the edge against you.

Nairs are great for keeping his Pikmin off you. Watch out for grabs. Try to fight in the air if you can because Olimar's aerials aren't really that great for the most part. DI to the side to escape Olimar's Uair and avoid ever getting juggled. PK Fire spamming isn't quite as useful in this matchup as it is in some others but honestly you shouldn't really need it. Just get in there with some Nair and Dair combos and use Fair for aerial spacing. Watch out for Olimar's grabs because they're really long range and powerful. You should have no problem at all recovering. Olimar has very little he can do against Lucas's recovery if you're intelligent about it. Edgeguarding is where you're going to get most if not all of your kills. Olimar doesn't have much to stop you from edgeguarding so I usually go for a Bair spike. Even if you sourspot and don't get the spike you can either double jump Dair or simply rope snake onto the ledge and pull up for the edgehog kill. Don't underestimate Olimar. He is a good character. You just happen to have the advantage as long as you use good spacing.

I'd say 60-40 Lucas's favour.

 

[Blackbelt]

^One little thing I'd like to add.


Nair is great for keeping 5 Pikmin off of you. Yellow Pikmin are completely immune to our PK attacks.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

you kinda forgot to mention that while nair is great for keeping his pikmin off of you....nair does not get rid of the white ones which can cause a great deal of damage to you if you dont get them off quickly.

 

[Irsic]

its actually the yellow ones that you can't get off with your nair.

I find olimar on a small stage much much more difficult to deal with. Camping on FD isn't really a problem with Lucas as getting close to olimar isn't that difficult.

 

[HiddenBowser]

OMG, I'm so ****ing wasted, like way more than I wanted to be, like I can't ****ing type, like it took me a long time cause I keep ****ing up.

 

[Irsic]

Awesome. I should come to michigan and we'll party.

Ever been to one of Pike's parties?

 

[HiddenBowser]

Awesome. I should come to michigan and we'll party.

Ever been to one of Pike's parties?

Like Pike the frat? I've been to a few but I like house parties better.

 

[Irsic]

Like Pike the frat? I've been to a few but I like house parties better.

Yeah. My brother was apart of Pike there, I found their parties to be a lot of fun. D:

A frat party is just like a house party.

It's just a lot bigger house. I think the Pike house is actually pretty large. <_< And they have a dance floor. (Not always being used though D: )

 

[Tyr_03]

Nairs actually do get yellow pikmin off it just takes longer and it won't ever kill them, only knocks them off of you. Same is true with any of Lucas's electricish attacks on them like his Dsmash.

 

[DanGR]

Shrinkway v Seanson =the Olimar-Lucas metagame methinks.

I don't really have much to comment on about this matchup. It's pretty straightforward.

 

[Blackbelt]

Shrinkway v Seanson =the Olimar-Lucas metagame methinks.

I don't really have much to comment on about this matchup. It's pretty straightforward.

ah, come on, at least throw out a matchup ratio.

 

[dawgbowl]

55-45 in lucas's favor.

It is close as they have a couple of similar games but where it breaks down is Lucas has some pretty nice edgeguarding techniques and Olimar has terrible recovery options. He's also light, and a good Fsmash puts him far enough away where gimping should be simple.

The stick is fantastic in this matchup when you are on the ground, otherwise dance around him with SHNairs FHdairs and some wave bouncing.

sooo that's my input.

 

[DanGR]

55-45 in lucas's favor.

It is close as they have a couple of similar games but where it breaks down is Lucas has some pretty nice edgeguarding techniques and Olimar has terrible recovery options. He's also light, and a good Fsmash puts him far enough away where gimping should be simple.

The stick is fantastic in this matchup when you are on the ground, otherwise dance around him with SHNairs FHdairs and some wave bouncing.

sooo that's my input.

lol, no. It's 60-40 Olimar- a clear advantage.

-Olimar has his wonderful spacing options in fsmash, grabs, and pivotgrabs.
-He's gota great shieldgrab to battle against spaced FHdairs and SHnairs.
-Lucas' SH doesn't reach above fsmash height. That's pretty significant.
-upb is great to knock Lucas out of the air if he's using dairs too much.

Here's a couple matches. They're pretty old though:
Shrinkray (Olimar) vs Seanson (Lucas)
game 1/2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rUAoOEQN1A
game 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7XLcuuUuuw

edit: I'm not saying these matches are everything, but they're just examples. You can see how well grabbing the dairs work. Lucas just doesn't have enough approaching options to give Olimar a lot of trouble.

 

[Blackbelt]

Now while I'd hate to disagree with Dangr, Tyr makes some very good points, and he puts it furmly into Lucas' court.


So it appears there are very different views of this matchup, and we should do our best to figure out what really matters and what doesn't in this matchup, so we can arrive at the truth.

 

[Tyr_03]

The only reasons Seanson's Dairs got punished in those videos at all were because he didn't fast fall a lot of them. He's a good player. But those are old videos and he made some really obvious mistakes. Lucas's SH Nairs and FH Dairs can be controlled to always land behind Olimar making shieldgrabbing useless and Olimar's Dsmash is slower than Lucas's jab so that's no good either. Lucas shouldn't Short hopping all that much except for Nairs really so the fact that a Fsmash is on the same level really shouldn't matter. If Lucas is spacing poorly enough that you have enough time to Fsmash his SH Nair then it's the player's fault not the character. Lucas still has a massive advantage for edgeguarding. The best you could possibly say for Olimar is a 50-50 and I completely disagree with even that. I wouldn't say any lower than 55-45 Lucas's favor and would prefer to say 60-40 Lucas's favor.

 

[Levitas]

Lucas and lolimar go fairly even onstage, and lucas has a massive advantage offstage.

lucas does have an advantage, though perhaps not much of one.