Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[Tyr_03]

This is getting really stupid. It's obvious that we're not going to come to an agreement. Set it at 50-50 or a question mark and move on. I've looked at both sides of the argument and still see Lucas as the advantaged character in the matchup. I'd have to hear from a big name with a list of detailed reasons to change my mind since most of the reasons that Olimar has an advantage in the matchup are debatable at best and untrue at worst in my opinion. I'm sure there are many that are just as firm in their opposite opinion.

Next matchup.

 

[Levitas]

seconded. lucas totally wins

 

[HiddenBowser]

This is getting really stupid. It's obvious that we're not going to come to an agreement. Set it at 50-50 or a question mark and move on.

Or better yet, you should just set it as a question mark, lol.

 

[Blackbelt]

I admit, I hate leaving a matchup unfinished, but it is indeed obvious that this is going nowhere.


I will, for now, put it as a question mark, and will be revisited after all the matchups are complete.



Now, I'm gonna go edit the OP.


Please, begin discussion on our next 3 matchups: Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard.

 

[Itburns]

Ivysaur
55:45 in Lucas favor

- like you said he has a good defensive game... but his spacing game is where he excels.
- Razorleaf cannot be absorbed and cuts right through it. it also cancels out all your projectiles..
-bulletseed racks up a free 30-45% and is best used from a block or sidestep.
- since lucas is light aswell.. uair kills him as low as 80%
- lucas's 2nd jump btrajectory is kinda slow and predictable and ivy has 2 Kill moves that are arieals
- he can be gimped pretty easily but so can lucas.. if lucas tries to recover above the edge hes open to a well placed vinewhip. if hes at level with it.. a well placed bair. and if he is below the edge a well timed instant tether can cancel out his recovery.
- also lucas is outranged

 

[Levitas]

Ivysaur doesn't edgeguard lucas.

Ivysaur gets edgeguarded by lucas.

Ivysaur's out of shield options are bad

Ivysaur doesn't do as well at midrange as lucas.

Ivysaur's kill moves are inferior to lucas's.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

Of the three pokemon I would say that the easiest one to fight with Lucas would have to be Charizard

Chaizard: His attacks are slow which gives you time to react. you can fsmash his rocksmash to reflect the damage back on him for insane amounts of damage. Neutral air chains will destroy him because of his large size. you can go ahead and absorb his flame breath but it might not be worth it all the time.

Ivysaur: he can out range you with carefully spaced back airs. be extremely careful when approaching ivysaur from above due to bullet seed which will do around 30% and above 40% if you dont DI out of it quickly. lucas can reflect his razor leaf attack which will hit him allowing you to run in and punish him. Also remember that his usmash is the strongest in the game so keep a careful eye on that. One major advantage that lucas has against ivysaur is that lucas can easily gimp ivysaur

squirtle: squirtle can chain attacks together extremely quickly and will rack up the damage on lucas, but that is if you let him get in close range. If you can keep your spacing against squirtle until he gets fatigued and has to switch out then you will be fine. Also note that squirtle's throws are extremely powerful so again keep your spacing in this matchup. Be careful about water gun while you are recovering

I dont have too much info on this matchup because i havent played our pt main here in too many games. Ill try and get some games in with him tommorow and see what else i can get

 

[Itburns]

Ivysaur doesn't edgeguard lucas.

Ivysaur gets edgeguarded by lucas.

Ivysaur's out of shield options are bad

Ivysaur doesn't do as well at midrange as lucas.

Ivysaur's kill moves are inferior to lucas's.

correcction:
bad ivysaurs dont edgegaurd lucas. I like how people automatically think that ivysaur is completely useless off the stage just because he has a tether recovery.
Instant tether

ivysaurs out of shield options are bad? uhh what ivysaurs do youo play? bullestseed comes out insanely fast and covers both his sides and is a garunteed 30%+. not to mention his nair can lead to followups.

in regards to lucas out prioritzes at mid range.. you are probably right overall.. but what ivysaur would be stupid enough to give you that benefit when he can easily keep you at a far enough distance. Ivy outranges lucas period.

in regards to ivys kill moves being inferior to lucas's... that maybe the case but uair at 80% is a lucas killer.

 

[Blackbelt]

correcction:
bad ivysaurs dont edgegaurd lucas. I like how people automatically think that ivysaur is completely useless off the stage just because he has a tether recovery.
Instant tether

ivysaurs out of shield options are bad? uhh what ivysaurs do youo play? bullestseed comes out insanely fast and covers both his sides and is a garunteed 30%+. not to mention his nair can lead to followups.

in regards to lucas out prioritzes at mid range.. you are probably right overall.. but what ivysaur would be stupid enough to give you that benefit when he can easily keep you at a far enough distance. Ivy outranges lucas period.

in regards to ivys kill moves being inferior to lucas's... that maybe the case but uair at 80% is a lucas killer.

It's not that Ivysaur is useless off stage. Ivysaur just lacks a solid answer to Magnet Pulling and Zap jumping.

And Lucas can screw Ivysaur over with the Rope Snake.


As for Bullet seed, we can DI so that we aren't caught in the streams.


And Uair is incredibly easy to see coming.

 

[Itburns]

It's not that Ivysaur is useless off stage. Ivysaur just lacks a solid answer to Magnet Pulling and Zap jumping.

And Lucas can screw Ivysaur over with the Rope Snake.


As for Bullet seed, we can DI so that we aren't caught in the streams.


And Uair is incredibly easy to see coming.

its hard to find a solid answer to anything when it comes to match up threads since its all situational theories. Im jsut saying that people really understimate ivysaurs edge game.. and I can understand why, hell I would be hesitant to go off the edge before too.. but trust me, instant tether is an answer.. maybe not a solid one but it is one none the less.

Im not an ivysaur fanboy so with every match up it always starts up at a 60:40 disadvantage with Ivy because of his tether recovery.. yes we know that BUT dont forget ivy is a very solid character onstage.. not the best at spacing like marth etc but its up there.

The last 2 points you have are all situational.. and is dependant on individuals mindgames and DI capability

 

[Iron Mushroom]

But Ivysaur does lack off stage moves. Vine Wip for example is practically only good for grabbing ledges, and if you use it for grabbing ledges, but you're too far away, then you're screwed...... but PK Thunder you can control what direction you go. Plus Lucas' PK Thunder travels far

 

[Itburns]

what the?
vinewhip has short range?
vinewhip is one of ivysaurs best range attacks and it can grab the edge from prettty much offscreen.

no offstage moves?
- bair wall of pain into a tether,
- nair spikes

 

[Iron Mushroom]

*Sigh* I edited my post, because I rezlized that I was wrong, okay? And I said Ivysaur lacks moves, not doesn't have any

 

[Itburns]

fair enough.

a nair spike and a bair wall of pain is plenty to keep offstage.
bair can cancel PK thunder.. i just tested it.

but enough about the offstage I already stated that its a standard 60:40 disadvantage. can we discuss what its like onstage so we can come out with a result.

 

[Mangme]

You can also use Fair offstage, it can be used for killing.

 

[heytallman]

My opinion (HUZZAH!):

I've played with a guy who uses Pokemon Trainer, albeit only for low tier stuff, but he's still quite good.

Charizard: IMO, Lucas ***** Charizard. He is huge, and is a massive target for nair. He is also quite slow, and gets hit with so many of Lucas' moves. Lucas relatively beats Charizard off stage, just watch for the spike. I don't see Charizard being too much of a problem for Lucas. He's kinda like Bowser, except he can fly. Kinda. I say 65/35 in Lucas' favor.

Ivysaur: Despite what the guy has said before, I really don't see Ivysaur being too much of a problem for Lucas. Granted, razor leaf does outrange PK fire, and is a decent projectile, but other than that, I don't see much going for Ivysaur. Except for bullet seed, although it can be DI'd out of quickly if not directly hit into it. Offstage, I don't see Ivysaur as being able to do ANYTHING. And gimping him? Too easy. Rope Snake/ledge hugging **** Ivysaur too much. I'd probably put this one as 65/35 in Lucas' favor as well.

Squirtle: In my opinion, the best of the three pokemon. Squirtle is fast, and has an air game that is better than Lucas'. A well played Squirtle can do some sick stuff in this matchup. I also think Squirtle has a grab release chain grab on Lucas? But then again, who doesn't? I put this one as definitely lower, but I think this is still probably in Lucas' favor, but barely. I say 55-45 or so.

That's what I think, and I'm pretty sure I'm somewhat correct. Pokemon Trainer isn't that good.

 

[Levitas]

The point is that ivysaur doesn't go as low, as high or as far as lucas does in one standard recovery. Zap jump is fully twice the vine whip's range. PKT2 is twice as long as vine whip. Lucas doesn't get edgeguarded.

What frame does bulletseed hit out of shield? I bet it isn't fast enough to do between a nair and a jab.

Uair is slow, but more importantly, it depends on lucas being above ivysaur in the air. Lucas is only in the air if you hit him up there or if he's doing a Dair to set up for a KO with the Dtilt lock. So really, you've got to hit him up there, DI chase, and predict when the airdodge is. Meanwhile, the lucas knows that they can REACT to the uair with an airdodge, so if worst comes to worst, lucas eats a nair at 80%. big whoop.

PK fire is effective and stuff.

None of the three can grab release chain.

 

[Steeler]

i'll play chaos tomorrow, and we'll see what's up.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

i'll play chaos tomorrow, and we'll see what's up.

oh its on now poke boy XD

 

[Brinzy]

What frame does bulletseed hit out of shield? I bet it isn't fast enough to do between a nair and a jab.

Frame 1.

Pokemon Trainer isn't that good.

Neither is Lucas, but that's not what you're supposed to judge when you're doing specific match-ups.

I love how every single board justifies this as a reason to think they have advantages on all three Pokemon.

Charizard: IMO, Lucas ***** Charizard. He is huge, and is a massive target for nair. He is also quite slow, and gets hit with so many of Lucas' moves. Lucas relatively beats Charizard off stage, just watch for the spike. I don't see Charizard being too much of a problem for Lucas. He's kinda like Bowser, except he can fly. Kinda. I say 65/35 in Lucas' favor.

Ivysaur: Despite what the guy has said before, I really don't see Ivysaur being too much of a problem for Lucas. Granted, razor leaf does outrange PK fire, and is a decent projectile, but other than that, I don't see much going for Ivysaur. Except for bullet seed, although it can be DI'd out of quickly if not directly hit into it. Offstage, I don't see Ivysaur as being able to do ANYTHING. And gimping him? Too easy. Rope Snake/ledge hugging **** Ivysaur too much. I'd probably put this one as 65/35 in Lucas' favor as well.

Squirtle: In my opinion, the best of the three pokemon. Squirtle is fast, and has an air game that is better than Lucas'. A well played Squirtle can do some sick stuff in this matchup. I also think Squirtle has a grab release chain grab on Lucas? But then again, who doesn't? I put this one as definitely lower, but I think this is still probably in Lucas' favor, but barely. I say 55-45 or so.

You first need to approach Charizard. Lucas has some decent range on his fair and his ftilt, but PK Thunder moves so slow that it's too easy to cancel out unless Charizard is in a bad position. PK Fire is easily powershielded (so long as it isn't online). Charizard's attacks aren't the fastest... but he's not harshly outsped by Lucas. PSI Magnet is... somewhat decent if you face a Flamethrowering Charizard, because if you guess wrong and he doesn't use Flamethrower, at least you have a hitbox to work with. That said, if I can successfully wall Lucas on a consistent basis with Charizard, then I'm not going to say it's Lucas's advantage. 65:35 is too big in my opinion, but we'll just have to see.

If you think Ivysaur is nothing but Razor Leaf and Bullet Seed, then you probably haven't done enough playing against him. He's pretty much anti-air, so you need to take caution if you're going to approach him from the air (while he's completely on the ground at the very least). In the air, bair will stop him cold, but it's not that strong. Ivysaur can fight offstage. Nobody thinks he can because of his recovery, but it honestly doesn't mean much. Granted, he's not amazing, but he's not useless. Also, I love how everyone thinks they have a huge advantage on Ivysaur because they can grab a ledge. The process to edgehog Ivysaur is very simple; actually getting Ivysaur out to be easily gimped (while you don't get gimped in return) isn't as easy. Not insanely hard, but Ivysaur doesn't automatically lose a stock when he's offstage. Not to mention, if Lucas screws up, he's looking at a potential stage-spike or even getting hit by Razor Leaf to be taken off the edge. 65:35 Lucas is again too big.

Squirtle seems alright, but Lucas can't stop Squirtle from stringing aerials on him effectively, then I'm gonna lean towards Squirtle. His projetiles are too easily dealt with as Squirtle. Squirtle outspeeds Lucas in attack speed. Lucas can kill him a bit early, but so can everyone else, so that doesn't matter too much.

I'll have to see how you guys use Lucas, because Lucas has never given my PT any severe problems. I'll gladly play some of you if you so desire. PM me if you want to play.

 

[Itburns]

The point is that ivysaur doesn't go as low, as high or as far as lucas does in one standard recovery. Zap jump is fully twice the vine whip's range. PKT2 is twice as long as vine whip. Lucas doesn't get edgeguarded.

What frame does bulletseed hit out of shield? I bet it isn't fast enough to do between a nair and a jab.

Uair is slow, but more importantly, it depends on lucas being above ivysaur in the air. Lucas is only in the air if you hit him up there or if he's doing a Dair to set up for a KO with the Dtilt lock. So really, you've got to hit him up there, DI chase, and predict when the airdodge is. Meanwhile, the lucas knows that they can REACT to the uair with an airdodge, so if worst comes to worst, lucas eats a nair at 80%. big whoop.

PK fire is effective and stuff.

None of the three can grab release chain.

Everyone gets get edgeguarded...certain characters may have easier way of getting onto the stage. but unless lucas has superarmor while in the air he is vunerable to edgegaurd.

uair is fast.. his manuverability in the air is what makes it slow. try a sh uair for example.

So really, you've got to hit him up there, DI chase, and predict when the airdodge is. Meanwhile, the lucas knows that they can REACT to the uair with an airdodge, so if worst comes to worst, lucas eats a nair at 80%. big whoop.

uhh yes.. its called a follow up. You can also mix up uairs with up+b's.

In regards to your response about bulletssed. If I read it correctly it comes out between the 1st and 4th frame. I also tested it out, its all depending on the distance you land an autocancelled nair. The time inbetween landing an autocancelled nair to the jab is enough time for the initial pop up for bulletseed to come out. Even with frame perfect control its a toss up. Besides bullet seed is a punisher and im sure you dont always approach with a nair.

obviously we can rock paper scissors debate on what moves beat out what but if you want I can give you my fc so we can test out the playing styles.

obviously because its wifi lag johns have to be considered but atleast we can have a better understanding.

 

[Brinzy]

Bullet Seed comes out on Frame 1. There's a large hitbox at the very beginning and then the stream of seeds come out.

 

[Levitas]

frame 1 is freaking impressive. I retract that comment. Ivy has an intense out of shield game.


Lucas still recovers against Ivy through edgeguard attempts way more than Ivy manages to pull off an edgeguard.

And I wonder if you understood my point with the up air scenario...

 

[Brinzy]

Lucas shouldn't really be getting edgeguarded by Ivy unless he's kinda low-ish anyway, and that said, all he has to do is Up B from afar. There's nothing Ivy can (reliably) do to stop it unless Lucas aims at the ledge (edgehog if you can see it coming), far above (Vine Whip), or if he just flukes it. That said, he shouldn't have to Up B much at all.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

35-65 on lucas vs zard is too much.
Ok, so on the air charizard gets *****, but PT can keep the fight on the ground, where (if i remember well) charizard outranges lucas, charizard has some fast moves and even some of his kill moves are very fast... the dtilt has a very good range, kills around 100 % and comes out in frame 8, of course, you can attack a grounded charizard with your aerials, but that can be shieldgrabed

 

[pyrimadines]

It would be very difficult to shield grab an approaching nair into jab or u-tilt. Also, on the ground Lucas can use Wavebounced PK Fires to not only pressure Charizard, but stay out of his grab range. Although in Charizard's perspective, the sliding upsmash is a great approach (when I play PT) and that could catch a Lucas offguard, but not everytime.

 

[prOAPC]

play in defense mode, wait 2 mins, the pokemon is tired, win

 

[Irsic]

Eh...I find Charizard to be extremely easy for Lucas' to grab and that's saying a lot. Lucas' has too many options to deal with when grabbing Charizard too, so I find Charizard to be the easiest pokemon to deal with.

 

[Brinzy]

I'm still up for playing. My Charizard is probably my worst, but... I don't think I'll make myself look "65:35 Lucas."

 

[Iron Mushroom]

play in defense mode, wait 2 mins, the pokemon is tired, win

That stradgety is great

 

[Irsic]

I played a couple of matches against a PKMT player, I don't know his SWF name, he messaged me on AIM.

One big thing I noticed about the match-ups is that Lucas' tilts are just way too fast for all of the PKM, they space amazingly well.

Also, fsmashing Charizard's rocksmash is hilarious. I'll never forget about that little tip. ;,,,;

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

I Also, fsmashing Charizard's rocksmash is hilarious. I'll never forget about that little tip. ;,,,;

ya steeler (our pt main) and I were screwing around and we happened to do fsmash and rock smash at te same time and he took insane knockback and damage so were like.....wait a minute, and tried it again...its freakin hilarious

 

[Irsic]

That was basically what happened too. Rocksmash and fsmash collided at the same time and he rocketed off the stage.

 

[Blackbelt]

Bullet Seed is frame 1 from Shield?


....****, that's good. That alone makes me start to think that it might not be Lucas' advantage. I'm leaning towards even on that front.


I still say Chariard is disadvantaged, but even I think 65-35 is too much. 60-40 is the highest I would go.

And I note that most people completely ignore Squirtle.

 

[Levitas]

blackbelt, it'd need to have decent range on the frame 1 hitbox to have much of an impact. Lucas can still space in range of his crap but not bulletseed for reasonable effect.

 

[Irsic]

It really doesn't because of how punishable it is. I've definitely shielded that first hit that sends you upward and then punished it after. It's good, but it doesn't make the matchup.

 

[Blackbelt]

blackbelt, it'd need to have decent range on the frame 1 hitbox to have much of an impact. Lucas can still space in range of his crap but not bulletseed for reasonable effect.

It really doesn't because of how punishable it is. I've definitely shielded that first hit that sends you upward and then punished it after. It's good, but it doesn't make the matchup.

Ok, maybe I overexagerated, but the fact is it's awesome.

 

[Itburns]

actually the fact that it comes out in 1 frame and is a garunteed 30%= does do alot, its one of ivys best punishers and levitas it has about half the body range on either side. trust me if your land close or a move gets dodged it will eat you up.

ivy off the edge as weve astablished is terrible but onstage with his range, spacing and punishment i go for a 55:45 in lucas favor.

 

[Levitas]

If it's as good as you say, why doesn't my Ivysaur (or anyone else's) eat everything alive?

A frame 1 move with 30% guaranteed and as huge of a range as you say is clearly an exaggeration.

 

[Blackbelt]

If it's as good as you say, why doesn't my Ivysaur (or anyone else's) eat everything alive?

A frame 1 move with 30% guaranteed and as huge of a range as you say is clearly an exaggeration.

Levitas brings up a good point.