Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[heytallman]

Sorry about exaggerating last night, I was really tired and wasn't focusing well. I realize now that I totally exaggerated stuff. Sorry to all the PT players I offended. I still think that the matchup is in Lucas' favor, and I still think Squirtle gives Lucas the most problems. Also, I didn't realize that bullet seed came out that fast. Too good, but still not making the matchup, IMO, just as Levitas and Blackbelt said

 

[Itburns]

If it's as good as you say, why doesn't my Ivysaur (or anyone else's) eat everything alive?

A frame 1 move with 30% guaranteed and as huge of a range as you say is clearly an exaggeration.

um.. im not exaggerating, it comes out in one frame does a graunteed 30%+ and is range is half ivys body on either side.

the reason your ivy doesnt eat up everything is probably because your playing her wrong. I dont mean that to offend you either Im just stating the facts. You didnt know about bulletseeds potential so obviously you dont know how ot apply it. Thats like me saying zapjumping is useless on the basis that I dont know its full potential.

The reason why ivy is looked so down upon is the fact that she is easily gimpable however she has excellent spacing and can rack up damage really fast with bullet seed. She is a very good character on the stage off stage is where her weaknesses are.

 

[Levitas]

The move you're describing is way more broken than snake Ftilt.

One of us has our facts wrong here.

 

[Brinzy]

You can DI the first hit and it can be shielded if you see it coming... but that's a fair trade for what it does.

Also, I missed this post:

play in defense mode, wait 2 mins, the pokemon is tired, win

lol, no.

If a Pokemon goes from full stamina to exhausted, I can just about guarantee you that Lucas is in a good KO range. The only thing that happens when Pokemon exhaust is that they lose raw damage. They still retain their knockback on all of their attacks. Being fatigued means pretty much nothing at all unless a Pokemon is fatigued and Lucas just spawned... in which case, Down B solves everything.

 

[Itburns]

no its not... its used to rack up damage and punish... it has no knockback like snakes utilt

B – Bullet Seed – 4,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,1,1,1…..% (when fatigued 2,1,1,1,1,1,1……%)
OH MY GOD. You know the first time this move was announced on the Dojo, I was like **** that seems quite crappy. Boy o boy was I wrong about that. Bullet Seed is seriously a candidate for most-broken move of the game. I put it in the same league as Peach’s down-smash in Smash Melee. No joke.

First of all let me explain how the move works. You hold B, and it creates a continuous stream of bullet seeds directly above Ivysaur. The stream is infinite as long as you hold-down B. It starts off doing 4%, then 2%, and then eventually every bullet will do 1% damage. But what makes this move seriously broken is the start-up. For whatever reason, right before starting up the Bullet Seed stream, Ivysaur sort of shakes her leaves around. This hit-box is located all around Ivysaur, and what it does is it pops players directly into the stream of fire. From there, the player is literally powerless to the barrage of Bullets. There is no way to escape really.

On average, a properly DI’d Bullet Seed does around 30-40% damage.
I have seen Bullet Seed do a whopping 80% damage once when the opponent landed perfectly in the middle of the stream! Basically at that time your opponent just gets carried to the top of the Bullet Stream, and that’s when they can escape. To top it off, the bigger the target, the harder it is to DI out of it! Not only does this deal a ton of damage, but it FRUSTRATES your opponent tremendously and causes them to lose their rhythm. It’s always been said by designers that when a player loses control of their character, its one of the worst feelings they can have during a game… well that is exactly what this move does.

Seriously at any time that Ivysaur’s collision is overlapping with your opponents, Press and Hold B and watch them squirm as they take at least 40% damage. Good practice to land this move is to know the same way Jigglypuff needs to overlap the opponents to do Rest. Tech Chasing, or Rolling into the Opponent during their laggy moves also helps. As long as they get hit by the instant pop-up from the activation, they are going to take damage.

pokemon trainer faq:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142987

seriously, your asking a PT main if he has his facts right about the character he plays?

 

[Levitas]

Yes I am. That FAQ is even subtly wrong. The bullet seed stream is NOT infinite.

You'll note that snake's FTILT, which is what I said, is used for the same thing as ivy's bullet seed, to

rack up damage and punish.

If you really want, I'll go to the PT boards right now and take a poll on what move is more broken, bullet seed or snake's ftilt.

And 30 damage is BS, in competitive play it will never do that much.

 

[Blackbelt]

no its not... its used to rack up damage and punish... it has no knockback like snakes utilt




pokemon trainer faq:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142987

seriously, your asking a PT main if he has his facts right about the character he plays?

I love the fact that you're quoting a faq that I thought was outdated even when i used to main PT.

 

[Itburns]

Yes I am. That FAQ is even subtly wrong. The bullet seed stream is NOT infinite.

You'll note that snake's FTILT, which is what I said, is used for the same thing as ivy's bullet seed, to

If you really want, I'll go to the PT boards right now and take a poll on what move is more broken, bullet seed or snake's ftilt.

And 30 damage is BS, in competitive play it will never do that much.

your comparing a move thats main purpose is to rack up damage... to a move that has insane kill potential?

30 damage is **** near the minimum, how can you even make statements like "it will never work in comeptitve play". have you ever used this move? dont make assumptions based on your lack of knowledge

I love the fact that you're quoting a faq that I thought was outdated even when i used to main PT.

Im quoting a sourceso you guys have another input.. you have now 3 people telling you information about bullet seed but you guys still dismiss it as if were all wrong.

This thread is starting to get funny. Bulletseed doesnt make ivy great its application does... and besides its not a move that will make ivysaur top tier... i dont claim it does.. but it is a staple move in ivysaurs metagame especially when playing defensively.

I suggest that before you dismiss a moves validity you test it out yourself. can we move on to the next point please

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Comparing snakes ftilt and bullet seed wont help us to finish the matchup.. so lets go to the fact:
Squirtle gives lucas some trouble, hes very agile, good on the air, doesnt mind pk fire, has water gun, and usmash is very dangerous for lucas. imo its 50/50 or 55/45 squirtle
Charizard has the most trouble here, the PT may want the fight on the ground where he outranges and can shieldgrab ( and generally grab and stuff), on the air he has some trouble but he isnt gonna get gimped easily. IMO 55/45 for lucas
Ivysaur is very good in the ground, he outranges, has bullet seed, and good grab range with less lag than lucas (i may be wrong on this one).. an aerial lucas is not a big menace for ivy neither, she has a very good antiaerial game, but being offstage can be really dangerous... btw, he has an answer to lucas' recovery options.. if does the zap jump he will go hihg and ivy can vine whip, if he magnet pulls he can counter with razor leaf (not gonna kill, but a free hit is a free hit) and edgeguard with aerials in case of pk thunder.. its 50/50 or 45/55 lucas imo

 

[pyrimadines]

A Marth I was playing today DI'ed out of bulletseed (I was PT) at 29%. This Marth knows how to DI and SDIs which I believe is the quickest way out of the move, correct? So I'd say 30% is the basic minimum for BulletSeed usually. It could be a little lower maybe 25% with perfect DI.

 

[Levitas]

Next point indeed.

I want to talk about squirtle. I know the least about the small shelled one out of the three, and it seems to be the one that everyone's placing their bets on.

 

[Itburns]

A Marth I was playing today DI'ed out of bulletseed (I was PT) at 29%. This Marth knows how to DI and SDIs which I believe is the quickest way out of the move, correct? So I'd say 30% is the basic minimum for BulletSeed usually. It could be a little lower maybe 25% with perfect DI.

thank you...

ivysaur 55:45 in lucas favor. for the same reasons ive stated at the start.

squirtle:
I actually think squirtle does a bit worse than ivy on this match up... hes fast and can rushdown effectively but all of lucases smashes kill him somewhat easily. one thing that squirtle does have over lucas is his manuverability... with a mix up of Sh and shellshifting squirtle shouldnt have to much trouble getting around lucas wavebouncing or bsticking.

also squirtles watergun can gimp lucass recovery.

 

[Levitas]

If lucas is on squirtle's vertical level and close enough to get hit, he deserves to die.

 

[Itburns]

i dont think its as simple as that.. lucas is only garunteed safe is below the ledge. squirtle can angle his watergun for maximum effect.

its a gimp that is ofcourse situational but keep in mind that is a good answer to Pkt

 

[Blackbelt]

i dont think its as simple as that.. lucas is only garunteed safe is below the ledge. squirtle can angle his watergun for maximum effect.

its a gimp that is ofcourse situational but keep in mind that is a good answer to Pkt

Actually, it is that simple: If Lucas is on the same vertical level as Squirtle and uses PK Thuinder, than he deserves the stock loss.


However, also be aware that Lucas has three other recovery options at his disposal, and will only use Thunder as a last resort.

 

[Itburns]

well ifs its as simple as that, then its also just as simple for suqirtle to fair you out of magnet pulling or zapjumping considering they have a single trajectory and force lucas to recover with PKT.

squirtle has advantage when lucas is offstage.

IMO squirtle:
50:50 tie.

 

[Blackbelt]

well ifs its as simple as that, then its also just as simple for suqirtle to fair you out of magnet pulling or zapjumping considering they have a single trajectory and force lucas to recover with PKT.

squirtle has advantage when lucas is offstage.

IMO squirtle:
50:50 tie.

No, we only said it's simple for PK Thunder, and that only applies to the same vertical level.


Don't start commiting logical fallacies on us.

 

[Natch]

You can DI the first hit and it can be shielded if you see it coming... but that's a fair trade for what it does.

Also, I missed this post:



lol, no.

If a Pokemon goes from full stamina to exhausted, I can just about guarantee you that Lucas is in a good KO range. The only thing that happens when Pokemon exhaust is that they lose raw damage. They still retain their knockback on all of their attacks. Being fatigued means pretty much nothing at all unless a Pokemon is fatigued and Lucas just spawned... in which case, Down B solves everything.

Actually, they do lose knockback.

I mained PT for a long while. I know this.

 

[themrskills]

Curse that squirtle water gun and its gimping power. You too FLUDD. jk jk
Seriously though, there's no way that pt is a 50:50 matchup for lucas. For any of the three pokemon. Close range, Lucas has the ups on squirtle because of power and charizard because of speed. Ivysaur can be annoying with that vine whip, but properly spaced pk fires keep that out of the way. Long range, only ivysaur has razor leaf for range, and those are easily avoided, so no threat there. Offstage, no lucas will ever use pk2 immediately to recover if there is a danger of gimping. So squirtle's water gun is situational at best.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Long range, only ivysaur has razor leaf for range, and those are easily avoided, so no threat there.

I like how you dismiss Ivysaur's razor leaf because it's easy to avoid when your pk fire is just as easily avoidable.

 

[Onxy]

I like how you dismiss Ivysaur's razor leaf because it's easy to avoid when your pk fire is just as easily avoidable.

And this is exactly why I don't discuss matchups anymore, lol.

 

[HiddenBowser]

And this is exactly why I don't discuss matchups anymore, lol.

why, because you get flamed because you're a scrub?

 

[Onxy]

why, because you get flamed because you're a scrub?

Yay for baseless insults!

 

[Toby.]

Seriously though, there's no way that pt is a 50:50 matchup for lucas. For any of the three pokemon. Close range, Lucas has the ups on squirtle because of power and charizard because of speed.

OK. So vs squirtle being faster doesn't matter because lucas is more powerful. And charizard's power doesn't matter because lucas is faster.

hm. It seems like a contradiction to me

Perhaps you meant to phrase that differently?

 

[Brinzy]

Circular reasoning.

Actually, they do lose knockback.

I mained PT for a long while. I know this.

Tested it, and you're correct.

I assumed it for dumb reasons, but it's never been a problem for me because I've only been exhausted when 1) the opponent was at a high damage, so it didn't matter, and 2) when they respawned and I decided to not switch.

 

[Steeler]

okay, chaos and i have two videos on the way (thanks to our friend Affinity) and i'd like to get some more stuff recorded at our bi-weekly tournament on saturday. until i've seen all the vids, i'll withhold major analysis, but i feel like all three pokemon are usable in this matchup, and that alone is a big plus for pokemon trainer, because now he doesn't have to lean on two pokemon and can be more flexible.

also pk fire vs razor leaf camping...i think razor leaf has the slight edge because ivy can very near leaf twice in a long hop, and lucas can't do that because he has more after lag.

so more often than not, lucas will be forced to approach, and at that point, ivysaur has more range to space at lucas.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

At the very least, Lucas can reflect the leaves with fsmash, but it wouldn't surprise me if Ivysaur could so something to punish it.

 

[Brinzy]

I don't think there's really anything Ivysaur can do to punish if a leaf gets reflected, up close nor far away.

I like to SH-Razor Leaf -> dtilt to wall, but that's because I have slow-ish reaction timing and won't rely on getting out bair in time.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

If pokemon get fatigued then you gotta be carefull with taking even more damage with bulletseed, it does the same damage( cause its 1% and wont go lower) and less knockback, so it will be harder to DI out....
If ivy forces lucas to approach then it may be neutral, because ivy can stop all those approaches effectively... but i dont think she forces lucas to approach
Squirtle is preety good here, i think hes the only pokemon with an very slight advantage

 

[Levitas]

I think because reflecting the rock smash is so awesome, we should do our matchups out of 256 instead of 100 and replace our numbers with respective ascii characters.

I'm thinking that squirtle on lucas is something like ƒ:x

Ivy vs lucas would be something like l:Ž

Charizard vs lucas might be i:‘

 

[Natch]

Guys, watch my PT videos. I used to main him-dropped him due to low tourney preformance-but these videos show some of what PT can do. I make mistakes, but I hope this at least tells you that PT does have his strengths. These are not the best vids, but they do show that PT can be capable when played well.


Notable ones:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1uUOwY40r8

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR_d4Iafxdo

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zerpRLbd4o

 

[heytallman]

Guys, watch my PT videos. I used to main him-dropped him due to low tourney preformance-but these videos show some of what PT can do. I make mistakes, but I hope this at least tells you that PT does have his strengths. These are not the best vids, but they do show that PT can be capable when played well.


Notable ones:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1uUOwY40r8

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR_d4Iafxdo

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zerpRLbd4o

I don't really think these are relevant for this discussion, as it doesn't show how PT and Lucas play together. Do you perchance have any PT vs Lucas videos?

 

[Iron Mushroom]

Guys, watch my PT videos. I used to main him-dropped him due to low tourney preformance-but these videos show some of what PT can do. I make mistakes, but I hope this at least tells you that PT does have his strengths. These are not the best vids, but they do show that PT can be capable when played well.


Notable ones:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1uUOwY40r8

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR_d4Iafxdo

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zerpRLbd4o

Your Ivysaur is good. But, yes Lucas videos vs. PT would be better considering this is Lucas' matchups

 

[Natch]

Your Ivysaur is good. But, yes Lucas videos vs. PT would be better considering this is Lucas' matchups

I'm just putting this to give you an idea of how PT can work. The best I have are 4 vids of my PT against 2 Ness players. I was sucking in some of them. Like, badly ish.

Me Vs Rafi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_ChB5VQ658
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_GelL548MM

Me. Vs. Camaman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNdSKQhfKcw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-394DEErdU

 

[Steeler]

ness still has a different playstyle from lucas...

 

[Blackbelt]

I'm just putting this to give you an idea of how PT can work. The best I have are 4 vids of my PT against 2 Ness players. I was sucking in some of them. Like, badly ish.

Me Vs Rafi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_ChB5VQ658
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_GelL548MM

Me. Vs. Camaman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNdSKQhfKcw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-394DEErdU

Save it for the Ness board.

 

[Steeler]

alright, something to stir up some debate:

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvzJ-pAGxX8

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc43PhZUlLI

i think both chaos and i could have played better, hopefully we can get some more matches recorded tomorrow

 

[Brinzy]

I wanna play someoooone. : (

I quit Lucas, though.

 

[Steeler]

well that won't help me raph! but maybe we could do some ness v pt for the now stalled ness debate?

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

alright, something to stir up some debate:

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvzJ-pAGxX8

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc43PhZUlLI

i think both chaos and i could have played better, hopefully we can get some more matches recorded tomorrow

ya dude i was playing like **** on that day =P i could tell you were playing WAY different from how you usually play too...well definately play some more matches tommorow