Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[Browny]

ignore everything i said, it only applies for ness

 

[PKNintendo]

ignore everything i said, it only applies for ness

Course it does. Lucas has just luckier than Ness. :embarrass

Big deal though, why do I care about using a down tilt that has a 30% chance of tripping anyway?

Grab release to ''YOUR TO SLOW'' without punish is where it's at.

 

[HiddenBowser]

I'm bored. Someone on the Lucas boards, give me something to flame

 

[Blackbelt]

I'm bored. Someone on the Lucas boards, give me something to flame

Lucas for Mid Tier.



ANd BTW, can we all agree on 45-55?

 

[HiddenBowser]

Lucas for Mid Tier.

Haha, thanks...

You're wrong, ****ing scrub!

lol, that was fun.

 

[Blackbelt]

Haha, thanks...

You're wrong, ****ing scrub!

lol, that was fun.

But it all seriousness, I think Lucas could move up the one space neccesary to be right at the bottom of mid.

 

[Iron Mushroom]

I suppose it's possible.....

 

[Blackbelt]

I now use Sonic. Film at eleven.


Oh, and it's time to talk about Peach.

 

[ZMan]

I haven't foughten any good Peaches with my Lucas (just with my Sonic), but I'd imagine PK fire being good in shutting down her floating game. I don't think any of her aireals can cancel out PK fire. I'm probably wrong though.

 

[PrepareYourself]

She has no good defenstuff against Usmash (that I know of). Toad can't block it. And watch out for her amazing float edgeguard.

Lucas' projectile absorption/healing/aura/glow/potato can't absorb Turnips, can they?

 

[Blackbelt]

She has no good defenstuff against Usmash (that I know of). Toad can't block it. And watch out for her amazing float edgeguard.

Lucas' projectile absorption/healing/aura/glow/potato can't absorb Turnips, can they?

No, they cannot.

 

[ZMan]

No, The PSI Magnet (or potato) can't absorb turnips. I'm kinda thinking that sniping her with a PK fire can stop her floating and wrecking Lucas's **** off stage.

 

[GotenOnNimbus]

Annoying thing is that Turnips seem to block lots. The little experience I've had against Peach has proved that her properly timed utilt stops a lot of aerial approaches, since it comes out fast and is pretty good size. I dunno, haven't had a whole lot of Peach experience aside from maining her a long time ago.

 

[ApplesOfDoom]

I usually bait into PK fire for fun, then either I jump out of it or I just retreat >_>. But I'm pretty sure pk fire will hurt her floating game a bit.

I don't think her aerials out-prioritize lucas', though. Dtilt(or Dsmash, im not sure), and especially Usmash are annoying. Usmash prevents attacking from above. If a peach tries to fair, and lucas Usmashes, lucas wins. Unless the peach has impeccable timing, or if lucas gets the timing wrong.

I know peach can cancel out Up-B with all her aerials, I'm pretty sure. So if a peach is really risking it, she may intercept your recovery. As the person above said, her Utilt has ultimate range and priority, so I wouldn't try striking from above.

I can't really provide anymore input, I'm not really that experienced with this matchup... I'm not even sure if some of my statements are right.

bleh

 

[heytallman]

If I may say so, I would like to say that this is a BAD matchup for Lucas.

I play often with a guy who mains Peach, and he ***** me quite a bit. If the Peach is floating (which I think most Peaches should be doing most of the time), there's hardly anything you can do to the Peach. You cannot hit her with fsmash, ftilt, or uptilt, her dair beats them. Upsmash can be avoided with her in the air and punished with a fair. If you try to use any aerial attacks, she can simply float backwards and then punish.

If you wanna PK fire her out of a float, you will have to full hop it, as she can dair it when it's short hopped. She can then air dodge and punish the full hop with an AA combo, which comes out VERY fast. And if you dodge the AA, she can just dtilt or something to punish that.

In my opinion, things don't look good for Lucas in this matchup.

 

[Praxis]

I used to play with a Lucas/Ness comain pretty frequently some time ago. I'm pretty sure Peach has a strong advantage on the poor kid (Ness fares considerably better). Her aerial priority utterly destroys everything he does in the air, and her float lets her crush is good ground game. His utilt/usmash don't come out fast enough/at the right angle to knock her out of float in between dairs, so she doesn't have to worry too much about being punished for dairing his shield while floating over him (just don't hover too close where he can jump-nair),

Peach's dair sets up 40-50% combos, so this is a really bad thing. Plus, her down air stops Lucas' PK Thunder, which is dangerous if she floats offstage dairing while he's trying to recover (turnips stop it too, which is nice for gimp kills).


Plus, the possibility of an umbrellicide has to be considered. I never thought of it till recently so I don't know how usable it is but I did it on accident about a week ago ^_^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYopT4hw6bE

She can then air dodge and punish the full hop with an AA combo, which comes out VERY fast. And if you dodge the AA, she can just dtilt or something to punish that.

Correct. Peach can also jab you once and grab you out of the hitstun from the first jab, then dthrow into combo at low % or mash A to refresh her moves.

Her most reliable kill move is an aerial with excellent range and accuracy (fair) that outranges any of Lucas' aerials properly spaced, and is made easier to hit by the way his recovery works. She's got a projectile he can't absorb.

Plus, she's got a really nasty trick to gimp him. Peach is the best edgehogger in the game- she can float against the ledge, and the moment the player releases the button, she instantly snaps to it with invincibility frames. So if you're trying to PKT2 back to the ledge, you're at risk of being edgehogged if the Peach jumps out and starts floating.

Don't ever approach from above- utilt has possibly the highest priority in the game and a gigantic hitbox. I've NEVER seen it clank, and it beats every dair in the game, including G&W's, Toon Link's, Ness' and Lucario's.


Everything looks pretty bad for him. If anything makes up for it...it's the fact that she's got poor spike recovery, so you might be able to gimp her with spikes. But that's about all you've got going for you.

She has no good defenstuff against Usmash (that I know of). Toad can't block it. And watch out for her amazing float edgeguard.

Only if the Lucas is unpredictable and catches the Peach. Usmash is too slow to be used to punish her dair- the dair will hit first (even ROB can't punish Peach's dair with his usmash!).

Still a good thing to keep in mind if the Peach is abusing the float or side-bing over the ledge.

I don't think her aerials out-prioritize lucas', though. Dtilt(or Dsmash, im not sure), and especially Usmash are annoying. Usmash prevents attacking from above. If a peach tries to fair, and lucas Usmashes, lucas wins. Unless the peach has impeccable timing, or if lucas gets the timing wrong.

Her aerials definitely beat Lucas'. Her fair even beat's Ness's fair if spaced properly (obviously, Ness' comes out faster so if he's in her face it hits first, but if the Peach backs up and fairs so that he's just out of the Ness' range, her fair hits him right through it)!

Also, don't expect to ever, ever a good Peach out of fair. A high level Peach will time fair autocancels so that even if they hit the shield they'll have a jab out two frames later and can follow the jab up with a dash grab if you shield that too. Feel free to grab if the Peach falls into your shield with a nair or bair though.

 

[Tyr_03]

lag cancelled full hop PK Fires are essential for this matchup to counter her floating. Peach combos well. She's annoying to fight against. But honestly I'd only put her at a 55-45 or 60-40 advantage against Lucas at very best. It's almost even.

 

[Praxis]

Ness v Peach is even. Lucas is not.

But yeah, it's not a hard counter or anything, like Peach vs Olimar (LOL, that matchup is so bad). 55-45 or 60-40 would be accurate.

 

[Levitas]

Lucas doesn't do well against a well-played peach.

 

[Blackbelt]

Ah, yet another "Lucas is at a disadvantage, but is it big enough to be considered a disadvantaged matchup" matchup.


We've been having alot of those lately.

 

[Praxis]

Ah, yet another "Lucas is at a disadvantage, but is it big enough to be considered a disadvantaged matchup" matchup.


We've been having alot of those lately.

It's definitely disadvantaged. The question is how much.

Peach's aerial game really destroy's Lucas'. He's got a better ground game, but we float.

You'll almost never get a grab off against a well played Peach, so forget that as a kill move. Usmash is the only remotely threatening ground move Lucas has on Peach, otherwise it's mostly aerial, and our projectile can't be absorbed by you. In air game, Peach will win. Heck, Lucas doesn't even have a viable approach. If Peach is using retreating fairs, Lucas has no aerial attacks that can hit her.

 

[pyrimadines]

I just had a passing thought about Peach's Turnip vs. PK Fire. I think its possible that Peach could Glide toss forward and throw a turnip into an oncoming PK Fire, have that block it, then she could punish the lag of the PK Fire due to her momentum bringing her close to Lucas. I haven't tested it, but it seems plausible. I can also imagine her d- and f-tilts being of the same or greater range than Lucas. Peach can also space well to avoid any PK Fire by Glide and reverse glide tosses. Even more so if she B-sticks(but, meh not many do) and she could Turnip Pull (a turnip wavedash-esque move).

Its also possible that Lucas' u-tilt could become more important in this match-up as it provides a disjointed wall in front and above him from where Peach will usually begin her onslaught.
I would imagine Peach's dair outprioritizing the u-tilt, but I would have to test it first. I would also think that ff-fairs and sh-upairs are good options for lucas in this match. Also watching for any moment that he can punish and ff-nair her into a jab-canceled fsmash for a fairly easy kill. PKT may possibly be of use in this match if you can snake it in front and above her as she floats and definitely as she recovers.

 

[prOAPC]

lucas has disadvantage
a few weeks ago i played a really good Peach, and i had a really bad time (worst than fighting a Marth). I could win because he liked to use the toad a lot, he became predictable, and i learnd that toad doesn't stop Lucas' Usmash. Another thing that helped me is that Peach is easy to edgeguard with Lucas, while she's floating, she's an easy target for PK Thunder, PK Freeze and even PK Fire. If she's recovering high, use PKT, if she's recovering at the same high of the stage, i use pk Fire or freeze and if she's recovering from below, use PKT's tail to stop her umbrella and then hit with the head looking for stage spike.
sometimes Peach uses her side B to grab the edge, and if she doesn't space it well, she doesn't sweetspot the edge and you can punish with dsmash
EDIT: Donky Kong: 25-75 :O DK is that bad???

 

[Tyr_03]

lol there's no ****ing way DK is a harder matchup for Lucas than Marth or Metaknight. That's got to be an error or something. Hell, I'd take DK over Snake any day. I think G and W is only 30-70 as well but that's just me. I really don't think G and W is harder to beat than good Marth in any way.

On subject though, kill moves isn't really an issue against Peach. You're completely forgetting our Dair to Fsmash combo which kills her at decently low percentage. Also she's not all that difficult to edgeguard depending on the height she comes in. If she comes in too high it's not good but other than that it's not bad at all. Full hop Dair covers a huge vertical range which can hit her when she's floating if she doesn't judge her spacing right. If she's too high, full hop lag cancelled PK Fires are your best bet. If you're spacing as well as she is you won't have a terrible disadvantage. It's a tough matchup but it could be a lot worse. I still say 40-60 at the very worst. I would go 45-55.

 

[prOAPC]

i prefer to fight a marth or mk, than snake
i would say 37-63 peach

 

[heytallman]

I agree with prOAPC, but why not make it something more like 35-65? 37-63 is a little......awkward.

Full hop dairs will be a bit hard to get, as you'll have to jump over her float, and you will get either dair'd coming up, or uair'd at your full height. This matchup isn't that good at all.

 

[Irsic]

Personally I don't really find Peach to be a huge problem. Her floating and racking up damage can really destroy you but once you're both on the ground I really feel that Lucas has the advantage.

When she's floating, assuming you're not playing on a stage like Battlefield where you'll have a little bit of a harder time getting away, you can **** her with your B moves. Lag cancelled PK Fires, Pk Thunders, Pk Freeze for some mind games, you name it. Just stay away physically because she'll **** your ****.

I find Peach to be rather easy to edgeguard, so you can tickle her out with your PKThunder quite a lot and rack up damage rather easy.

Her Turnips blocking your PK Fires can be a problem, and they come out quite fast. I would say that this matchup is really **** near even personally, but it does seem to be slightly in Peach's favor. I'd say 45-55.

Also, mind you, a poorly cancelled float can lead to a free upsmash. It doesn't happen very often, but I feel as though Peach is a character where hitting with my upsmash is a lot easier than it should be. You should have to be really, really careful, and not using it unless you know for sure she's going to fall right into it, or you're going to eat an fair to the face and we all know just how painful that is.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Just so you guys know, Peach is one of the characters that can dash grab chain grab Lucas. A forward tilt MAY be gauranteed out of release grab, and it kills Lucas at 130% if it's fully fresh and sweetspotted. I don't know if its guaranteed but it always seems to work.

I feel this to be advantaged to Peach at about 55-45 or 60-40 maybe. Peach can do things like down air his PK thunder to cancel it.

Oh and I'm playing Mother 3 now and its amazing, once I beat it I can finally try Lucas out in Brawl and know how to use him.

 

[prOAPC]

i don't know anything about Peach's frame data, but it looks like her jabs are faster than Lucas'
this is the peach i played
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4acVufUT4o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XuvL-4KDjE

 

[pyrimadines]

That Peach was abusing the Counter in the first match and didn't know how to recover in general. The player would have the Peach recover from the bottom (a melee tactic due to her second jump back then). If a Peach ever does that there is a greater chance of gimping her. I hope I used gimp right. XD

 

[Iron Mushroom]

Ah, yet another "Lucas is at a disadvantage, but is it big enough to be considered a disadvantaged matchup" matchup.


We've been having alot of those lately.

Sadly, he's just not that good

 

[Praxis]

On subject though, kill moves isn't really an issue against Peach. You're completely forgetting our Dair to Fsmash combo which kills her at decently low percentage.

Good luck landing this over her utilt. It beats every dair in the game.

Also, Edrees points out Peach can chaingrab Lucas, which I didn't know. This is especially dangerous because Peach has a problem killing as her best kill move (Fair) is also her best defensive aerial move and thus becomes a staple and goes stale. A chaingrab solves this by letting her completely refresh her moves. And since she can land a free grab out of a jab, and she can land a free jab or grab out of any autocancelled aerial against your shield...a Peach skilled in jab-grab tricks (a personal playstyle quirk of mine) gets grabs more often than most characters in the game.


I'd be willing to play any Lucas' online tonight if you'd like. I don't have that much Lucas practice, have an open mind, and would love to get some more matchup knowledge!

It's a tough matchup but it could be a lot worse. I still say 40-60 at the very worst. I would go 45-55.

Sounds fair.
Oh wait, that's pun-ny!

 

[Praxis]

That Peach was abusing the Counter in the first match and didn't know how to recover in general. The player would have the Peach recover from the bottom (a melee tactic due to her second jump back then). If a Peach ever does that there is a greater chance of gimping her. I hope I used gimp right. XD

Actually, not necessarily true. Recovering low might be bad against Lucas since he can set up spikes though... Peaches often recover low because it's nearly impossible to stop Peach from getting back to the stage once she lines up her up-B. Even if you edgehog her, the tip remains an active hitbox and you switch places- it's almost impossible to edgehog her unless she would have barely reached the ledge sweetspot anyway.

She does have poor spike recovery, so the best thing you can do is shoot for spiking her out of forward B if she's using it to recover.

 

[Irsic]

Good luck landing this over her utilt. It beats every dair in the game.

Heh, unless your utilt just hits Lucas from the ground, that isn't going to happen. The combo he's referring to starts right from the ground as a rising full hop fast falling dair that we then lock you into a dtilt and fsmash you with. It's not really as easy as utilting us right out of it.

I did notice that Peach's jab comes out rather fast...I don't know if its faster than Lucas', but it's fast. (Lucas 3rd fastest jab in the game)

And while edgeguarding her umbrella can be rather difficult we can poke you backwards a couple times before you can get it off completely...I haven't had someone completely dodge my edgeguard tactics completely before.

Praxis if you're willing to play a couple games tonight I'm totally up for it, and I can record them and post them in this thread. I'm an alright Lucas, but I don't have that much experience vs. Peach. I'm really thinking that this match up deserves a 45-55 rating.

 

[Irsic]

Oh also a quick side note - Lucas' fsmash has reflected toad's spores before - which I found rather humorous that I could reflect a counter attack. It's only happened once to me and it was an offline match, and my opponent was...really pissed. I don't have it recorded. :[

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Oh also a quick side note - Lucas' fsmash has reflected toad's spores before - which I found rather humorous that I could reflect a counter attack. It's only happened once to me and it was an offline match, and my opponent was...really pissed. I don't have it recorded. :[

The reason this works is because Lucas is actually reflecting a projectile, her spores. Her body is in counter mode which causes her to release a projectile, and the stick reflects projectiles so yeah.

 

[pyrimadines]

Actually, not necessarily true. Recovering low might be bad against Lucas since he can set up spikes though... Peaches often recover low because it's nearly impossible to stop Peach from getting back to the stage once she lines up her up-B. Even if you edgehog her, the tip remains an active hitbox and you switch places- it's almost impossible to edgehog her unless she would have barely reached the ledge sweetspot anyway.

She does have poor spike recovery, so the best thing you can do is shoot for spiking her out of forward B if she's using it to recover.

But if a Lucas sees a Peach recovering from the bottom, his best choice would be PKT edge games. This way a stage spike has a higher chance of occurring during the match due to the style of her umbrella recovery. Whereas a recovery from above allows for greater evasion from PKT and is out of reach of Lucas' spikes. I always hate it when someone uses Peach and uses the Float at the top of the stage where they are or are almost in the bubble. Lucas' best approach to that is probably a zap jump to a hopeful u-air or PKT to knock her into a star KO.

All in all, I think at least when facing lucas, a higher recovery is a more stable option than a lower one.

 

[PKNintendo]

Just so you guys know, Peach is one of the characters that can dash grab chain grab Lucas. A forward tilt MAY be gauranteed out of release grab, and it kills Lucas at 130% if it's fully fresh and sweetspotted. I don't know if its guaranteed but it always seems to work.

Lucas can DI and Shield the tilt. Tested. How do you CG Lucas? Why does this happen? Lucas only? (does it affect Ness?)

 

[Blackbelt]

Ok, either 45-55 or 40-60. We need to come to a consensus.


I wish I could say more on this matchup, but I am afraid good Peaches are hard to come by in this day and age.


And yes, DK is that bad. 30-70 at least (Hey, I didn't think it was that bad either, but I was proven wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong)

 

[heytallman]

Ok, either 45-55 or 40-60. We need to come to a consensus.


I wish I could say more on this matchup, but I am afraid good Peaches are hard to come by in this day and age.

If I had to choose between either of those two numbers, I'd say 40-60.