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Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

ook

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Yeah, I think I was doing it wrong before.

From the front, Lucas can DI out.
You have to cargo, then turn around. Then, it forces Lucas out the back, and he can't DI out.
Then if you've got the timing down, you can dsmash him before he puts up his shield.


Blackbelt, you wanna test it with me again?
 

Blackbelt

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Yeah, I think I was doing it wrong before.

From the front, Lucas can DI out.
You have to cargo, then turn around. Then, it forces Lucas out the back, and he can't DI out.
Then if you've got the timing down, you can dsmash him before he puts up his shield.


Blackbelt, you wanna test it with me again?
Yes, yes I do.


We go to a stage, you just grabm and we test.


Edit:..........son of a......



DK: Cargo, turn around, releae, DSmash.



30-70 matchup.
 

Blackbelt

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knew it :p

also, blackbelt, go to the biweeklies i'm hosting, i'll play you there

you really do not understand how much i despise online
I just checked.


It's a 2 hour drive.


.......maybe.


Edit: I see no reason to continue this discussion.


Let's just move on to Pit.
 

kupo15

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I would say Pit has the adv in this matchup. The only annoying thing is that Lucas is small and hard to hit with arrows. We can reflect all of your stuff back and mirror your PK recovery. Idk much too say so if you have questions, ask.
 

Admiral Pit

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Now the first think that comes to mind in this matchup is that Lucas has his Magnet to counter Pit's arrows, and Pit's reflectors are a counter to Lucas' Projectiles, mostly PK fire. There's more to this battle than that.

First off, Pit has poor Melee range, and with Lucas' Magnet, it helps Lucas in bringing Pit closer to him. Be cautious that some Pits can use Arrow Looping to mess with Lucas' mind, simply mindgames.

Now, Lucas has some range and strong attacks, which some come out slowly, many of the moves outrange Pit's melee moves. Know that Pit's longest ranged moves are the F-air, and F-tilt, both dont come out as quickly as many of his other moves. This "Range" that Lucas has will hurt Pit.

For the projectiles, PK fire can simply be reflected by any one of Pit's 2 reflectors. The PK fire can cancel Pit's Rapid A move, but wont hurt Pit. This move isn't completely useful against Pit, though it can help Lucas recover and perform spacing, and with Pit's poor melee range, it could hurt Pit if he isn't careful.

PK Freeze is rarely used, because a Pit can just shoot an arrow at Lucas while he's using PK Freeze. Pit can also Reflect these to avoid damage, though it wont hurt Lucas... Unless Lucas is in the PK freeze's blast radius (Like that'll happen in a match). PK Freeze is bad against Pit... Smart ones anyways.

PK Thunder is one of those moves that can hurt Pit's recovering badly. Because it can hit multiple times for a lot of damage, as well as you controlling it, it can hurt Pit should he use his Mirror Shield, by just moving the PKT2 behind Pit. It also affects Pit's recovery, which I'll discuss later on.

When a Pit is trying to recover, a well-spaced B-air will spike Pit in his tracks, even while gliding.
-Man, why does poor Pit always have problems with many B-airs? Wolf's, DK's, Dedede's, Peach's...
Or you could use the PKT2 to chase Pit down while recovering. But remember, a Pit could just shoot an arrow at you as he is recovering.
Pit hates PKT2 when he's using Up-B to recover. This basically would lead Pit into getting KOed.

Pit does have good Edgeguarding, but sometimes, Dsmash nearby will get Pit with its range. I've experienced this before and it really hurts.

Lucas's N-air is similar to Pit's N-air in which both can pressure opponents' shields.

Note: Lucas' Fsmash, like Ness', when swinging the stick, it's a reflector.

Lucas' recovery isn't as limited as many other chars with poor recovery options, like DK, but can still be punished badly.
When Lucas is using the PKT2 to recover, Pit has many options to stop it.
1: Shoot an arrow at the PKT2 to cancel (Destroy) it and KO Lucas.

2: Mirror Shield Lucas right after the PKT2 hits him to reverse and KO him.

3: Shoot an arrow at Lucas constantly to build up pressure to mess Lucas up and force him to use PKT2 again, usually ends up getting KOed, depending on where Lucas is.

4: Edgehog Lucas, though hard to do if Lucas is just going to pass the ledge and land on the platform.

5: Use Up-B Near Lucas to "WingPush" Lucas while Lucas is trying to use PKT2 to recover, which can screw the player up, and make PKT2 hit Lucas in the wrong spot, which might send him somewhere else rather than where the player wants, which can also leave him open for one of Pit's attacks, should the Lucas be sent upwards.

Keep in mind that Pit is exceptional at Edgeguarding and ledgecamping, as well as gimping recoveries, or Gimping, in general, so fighting a good Pit with great Lucas experience will be hard when trying to get back to the stage.

Note: Pit has a D-tilt spike. If you hold on the ledge for too long, a Pit can just walk over and spike you. Lucas is one of the chars that can get D-tilt spiked while hanging on the ledge. The D-tilt spike works when the opponent is right at Pit's feet when he uses it.


Lucas' Advantages
-Is small and hard for Pit to hit.
-Has more range than Pit
-PSI Magnet weakens Pit's arrow game
-Powerful Moves could KO Pit somewhat quickly
-PKT2 and B-air are seriously dangerous to Pit when he's trying to recover.

Pit's Advantages
-Pit is good at Shield Pressure
-Pit's arrows can interrupt Lucas when he's using one of his "Vunerable" moves, like PTK2, and Dsmash
-Pit has many options to stop Lucas from recovering, mostly his PKT2, and some of those options involve arrows, which can keep Pit safe from harm.
-Reflectors slightly weaken Lucas' Projectile game, SLIGHTLY because Pit's 2 Reflectors can only protect Pit from the front, and not the back, and Lucas' PKT2, being controllable, you get the idea.
-Pit's Edgeguarding and Ledgecamping are exceptional.

Note: Norfair is one of Pit's BEST CP stages, but Yoshi's Island isn't Pit friendly.

Correct me if I'm wrong Pit/Lucas Boards
I'd say 60-40 or 55-45 in Pit's Favor. What do you think?
 

lil cj

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Now the first think that comes to mind in this matchup is that Lucas has his Magnet to counter Pit's arrows, and Pit's reflectors are a counter to Lucas' Projectiles, mostly PK fire. There's more to this battle than that.

First off, Pit has poor Melee range, and with Lucas' Magnet, it helps Lucas in bringing Pit closer to him. Be cautious that some Pits can use Arrow Looping to mess with Lucas' mind, simply mindgames.

Now, Lucas has some range and strong attacks, which some come out slowly, many of the moves outrange Pit's melee moves. Know that Pit's longest ranged moves are the F-air, and F-tilt, both dont come out as quickly as many of his other moves. This "Range" that Lucas has will hurt Pit.

For the projectiles, PK fire can simply be reflected by any one of Pit's 2 reflectors. The PK fire can cancel Pit's Rapid A move, but wont hurt Pit. This move isn't completely useful against Pit, though it can help Lucas recover and perform spacing, and with Pit's poor melee range, it could hurt Pit if he isn't careful.

PK Freeze is rarely used, because a Pit can just shoot an arrow at Lucas while he's using PK Freeze. Pit can also Reflect these to avoid damage, though it wont hurt Lucas... Unless Lucas is in the PK freeze's blast radius (Like that'll happen in a match). PK Freeze is bad against Pit... Smart ones anyways.

PK Thunder is one of those moves that can hurt Pit's recovering badly. Because it can hit multiple times for a lot of damage, as well as you controlling it, it can hurt Pit should he use his Mirror Shield, by just moving the PKT2 behind Pit. It also affects Pit's recovery, which I'll discuss later on.

When a Pit is trying to recover, a well-spaced B-air will spike Pit in his tracks, even while gliding.
-Man, why does poor Pit always have problems with many B-airs? Wolf's, DK's, Dedede's, Peach's...
Or you could use the PKT2 to chase Pit down while recovering. But remember, a Pit could just shoot an arrow at you as he is recovering.
Pit hates PKT2 when he's using Up-B to recover. This basically would lead Pit into getting KOed.

Pit does have good Edgeguarding, but sometimes, Dsmash nearby will get Pit with its range. I've experienced this before and it really hurts.

Lucas's N-air is similar to Pit's N-air in which both can pressure opponents' shields.

Note: Lucas' Fsmash, like Ness', when swinging the stick, it's a reflector.

Lucas' recovery isn't as limited as many other chars with poor recovery options, like DK, but can still be punished badly.
When Lucas is using the PKT2 to recover, Pit has many options to stop it.
1: Shoot an arrow at the PKT2 to cancel (Destroy) it and KO Lucas.

2: Mirror Shield Lucas right after the PKT2 hits him to reverse and KO him.

3: Shoot an arrow at Lucas constantly to build up pressure to mess Lucas up and force him to use PKT2 again, usually ends up getting KOed, depending on where Lucas is.

4: Edgehog Lucas, though hard to do if Lucas is just going to pass the ledge and land on the platform.

5: Use Up-B Near Lucas to "WingPush" Lucas while Lucas is trying to use PKT2 to recover, which can screw the player up, and make PKT2 hit Lucas in the wrong spot, which might send him somewhere else rather than where the player wants, which can also leave him open for one of Pit's attacks, should the Lucas be sent upwards.

Keep in mind that Pit is exceptional at Edgeguarding and ledgecamping, as well as gimping recoveries, or Gimping, in general, so fighting a good Pit with great Lucas experience will be hard when trying to get back to the stage.

Note: Pit has a D-tilt spike. If you hold on the ledge for too long, a Pit can just walk over and spike you. Lucas is one of the chars that can get D-tilt spiked while hanging on the ledge. The D-tilt spike works when the opponent is right at Pit's feet when he uses it.


Lucas' Advantages
-Is small and hard for Pit to hit.
-Has more range than Pit
-PSI Magnet weakens Pit's arrow game
-Powerful Moves could KO Pit somewhat quickly
-PKT2 and B-air are seriously dangerous to Pit when he's trying to recover.

Pit's Advantages
-Pit is good at Shield Pressure
-Pit's arrows can interrupt Lucas when he's using one of his "Vunerable" moves, like PTK2, and Dsmash
-Pit has many options to stop Lucas from recovering, mostly his PKT2, and some of those options involve arrows, which can keep Pit safe from harm.
-Reflectors slightly weaken Lucas' Projectile game, SLIGHTLY because Pit's 2 Reflectors can only protect Pit from the front, and not the back, and Lucas' PKT2, being controllable, you get the idea.
-Pit's Edgeguarding and Ledgecamping are exceptional.

Note: Norfair is one of Pit's BEST CP stages, but Yoshi's Island isn't Pit friendly.

Correct me if I'm wrong Pit/Lucas Boards
I'd say 60-40 or 55-45 in Pit's Favor. What do you think?

Hey Admiral its been a while
welcome to the Lucas boards:)
Very detailed info on the Lucas vs Pit match up
I think your right it is 55-45 in Pit's favor
Lucas always has trouble against a good Pit.
I learned that the hard way when I went against Rogue Pit
We both won matches but he won more than me and did some of the things u mentioned in your match up discription.Mirror shielding PKT2....that really hurts. And those arrows can get annoying sumtimes too...lol...the same goes for PK fire.
 

Blackbelt

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Admiral, your summary is very nice, but it lacks one thing.


For recovery, you only mention Lucas' PK Thunder, completely forgetting Zap Jumping, Magnet Pulling, and Tether Recovery.


Lucas has many recovery options.
 

Phaigne

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I would say yes, this match-up is slightly in Pit's advantage, but it is also a match-up that should not be taken lightly. And yes, Lucas' recovery options are more varied then Admiral Pit mentioned, but I think the general thought is the same, Pit has an advantage when pressuring the Lucas' recovery.
 

ChaosTheoryX

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I play with a guy who has recently been said to be the best pit in the nation by many people, and I can tell you that the only problem I have when fighting him is recovering. like admiral said. mirror shield pwns lucas' recovery's face. the only way to get around is to aim extremely far away from pit or learn to zap jump. during a fight with lucas a pit's main concern is to get lucas off the stage. once a pit does that and starts pressuring a lucas to use pkt as a recovery. there is a greater chance that the lucas will forget to think about pit's shield and just try and aim directly for the edge, then lucas is screwed, but lucas can also screw with pits recovery.

in the air I would say that thee characters are both even. if lucas is sent above pit the pit will usually jump up towards him and do an up air. knkow that lucas dair beats this almost always ( with the exception of a few spots where pits up air wins). A good attack against pit in the air is pk thunder, but don’t go directly for him with it. make the pk thunder head towards him and tart circle-ing it around him which should cause him to pull out his shield. After this happens loop it around ad hit him from behind. while in the air with pit beware the back air. It has crazy killing power

on the ground pit has a slight advantage only because he has a sight bit more range than most of lucas' attacks. pit also has two reflectors which causes lucas to be cautious while throwing projectiles at him.

in this matchup I gave it a 50-50 or 55-45 in pits favor. while pit has a very slight avantage it is not very large if the lucas plays smart
 

Levitas

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Zap jumping is important. All Lucas players should be able to do it to recover without a second thought.

By definition, Pit is in an advantageous position when Lucas is recovering. Doesn't matter. Lucas can get back pretty much every time unless he's actually killed off a death zone directly. Don't mistake Lucas's recovery for something that's even remotely easy to punish, and a wave zap to magnet pull pretty much strictly counters pit's perferred edgeguarding methods.
 

Admiral Pit

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Admiral, your summary is very nice, but it lacks one thing.


For recovery, you only mention Lucas' PK Thunder, completely forgetting Zap Jumping, Magnet Pulling, and Tether Recovery.


Lucas has many recovery options.
I really havent faced a Lucas that really uses those (cept the PK fire to Magnet, that's Magnet pulling, right?).

I didnt have this experience, but I suppose against the Tether Recovery, a Pit that uses Up-B near a ledge could quickly grab on to the ledge (When airborne, usually when trying to recover), and could negate Lucas's Tether, but I havent faced a Lucas that really uses it, so it really hasnt been used much... against me in my experience.

As for Zap Jumping, it's the part where Lucas gains a lot of height when I hear PK Fire, right? I never faced a Lucas that uses it as a recovery.
 

PKNintendo

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It's truly impressive. Facing a Lucas who doesn't is like facing a Wario who doesn't use his bike.
 

ChaosTheoryX

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And who might this be, dont know any pits in the MW besides Dr. X
his gamer nameis KY. He placed 9th at hobo 11. Tons of people that went to hobo 11 have said hes the best pit in the nation couldnt tell you if thats true but that is what people have been saying about him =P
 

Jarun

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hmmm i seem to beat most pit as long as their played offensively, just dodge his arrows and thats it, no more worries
 

Admiral Pit

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hmmm i seem to beat most pit as long as their played offensively, just dodge his arrows and thats it, no more worries
Considering how Lucas has many moves that make him Vulnerable, like Dsmash, PK Freeze, PK Thunder, and Usmash (Definately)... Lucas could freely be hit by an arrow.
And don't think that Pit is all about arrows either! He's a force to be reckoned with in the right hands!
 

Blackbelt

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Yeah Jarun, I must conclude that the Pits you play are the pits.



Anyway, right now I'm leaning towards a 45-55 matchup, favor Pit.
 

Tyr_03

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I fight Dr. X pretty often and honestly don't have all that much trouble. I really don't think Pit has the advantage at all. I guess I'd put it at even. The only trouble there is is recovering and Lucas has enough options that I don't think that's enough to give Pit an advantage really. Just avoid using PKT2 to recover. And Lucas can edgeguard Pit ridiculously well too. So yeah I'd go even. Don't spam PK Fire and you're pretty much fine.
 

PKNintendo

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Considering how Lucas has many moves that make him Vulnerable, like Dsmash, PK Freeze, PK Thunder, and Usmash (Definately)... Lucas could freely be hit by an arrow.
And don't think that Pit is all about arrows either! He's a force to be reckoned with in the right hands!
Yes but admiral, a Lucas who uses' laggy moves against Pit isn't that great. It's like saying Lucas has the advantage because PKT can knock him out of his recovery.
I find that Pit is good at punishing, and a great damage racker, so a Lucas must minimize errors against Pit. Psi Magnet helps matchup, since Lucas psi magnet comes out a decent speed. Im leaning on a 5-5.
 

HiddenBowser

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OMG, you guys are ****ing ********. There is absolutely no ****ing way Lucas has a winning matchup against Jiggs. Jiggs beats Lucas pretty bad.
 

Blackbelt

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OMG, you guys are ****ing ********. There is absolutely no ****ing way Lucas has a winning matchup against Jiggs. Jiggs beats Lucas pretty bad.
Could explain the reasonig behind this?


If we missed something, I would be more than happy to look at it, and adjust the ratio accordingly.
 

HiddenBowser

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absolutely serious. Jiggs is the single most underrated character in the game. (I'm not saying she's good, but she belongs in the middle of mid tier. And yes, I know the difference between me owning people because I'm good and my character having a little bit of an advantage in the matchup).

With jiggs it's too easy to stay just outside your range while keeping pressure up and avoiding like every move you throw out. Like all of lucas' moves either have like no range or have a little lag at the beginning and it's really easy to see those moves coming and avoid them. Because of that it's bother easy to approach you and poke at your shield without being in danger as well as making it easy to follow up aerials without having to worry about getting hit out of my attacks (which is probably the biggest problem in following up aerials with jiggs). It also makes it easy for me to pressure your shield with dairs, which shield pokes all the time and combos into rest which kills you at 70%.

Lucas' pk fire game does absolutely nothing to jiggs as well.

Jiggs can also follow lucas of the edge for basically as long as she wants and is one of the only characters that can somewhat effectively edge guard Lucas.

I've never had to try against a Lucas using jiggs. Like even when I'm sandbagging (which I'm somewhat known around here for, lol) Lucas is an easy matchup.
 

Blackbelt

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absolutely serious. Jiggs is the single most underrated character in the game. (I'm not saying she's good, but she belongs in the middle of mid tier. And yes, I know the difference between me owning people because I'm good and my character having a little bit of an advantage in the matchup).

With jiggs it's too easy to stay just outside your range while keeping pressure up and avoiding like every move you throw out. Like all of lucas' moves either have like no range or have a little lag at the beginning and it's really easy to see those moves coming and avoid them. Because of that it's bother easy to approach you and poke at your shield without being in danger as well as making it easy to follow up aerials without having to worry about getting hit out of my attacks (which is probably the biggest problem in following up aerials with jiggs). It also makes it easy for me to pressure your shield with dairs, which shield pokes all the time and combos into rest which kills you at 70%.

Lucas' pk fire game does absolutely nothing to jiggs as well.

Jiggs can also follow lucas of the edge for basically as long as she wants and is one of the only characters that can somewhat effectively edge guard Lucas.

I've never had to try against a Lucas using jiggs. Like even when I'm sandbagging (which I'm somewhat known around here for, lol) Lucas is an easy matchup.
Ok, I'll be honest: I don't have much experience against Jiggz, so I'm not exactly well equuipped to argue that particular matchup ATM.

I mean, i've never had a problem against a Jigglypuff, but personaly experience is something I put little stock in when determining matchup data.

So tell you what: We will revisit this, just not right now. ok?


Also, as far as Pit goes, I'm don't whether to call this 45-55 or 50-50. Can we reach an agreement?
 

HiddenBowser

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Ok, I'll be honest: I don't have much experience against Jiggz, so I'm not exactly well equuipped to argue that particular matchup ATM.

I mean, i've never had a problem against a Jigglypuff, but personaly experience is something I put little stock in when determining matchup data.

So tell you what: We will revisit this, just not right now. ok?
Good jiggs are really hard to come by, lol, that's why she's so **** low on the tier list.
 

Blackbelt

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Good jiggs are really hard to come by, lol, that's why she's so **** low on the tier list.
Ok, propbably not a smart idea to tell a guy with a Blue name to stop talking, but please, I'd rather not start talking about tier positions.


I'd like to focus on the matchups.
 

Levitas

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Ok, propbably not a smart idea to tell a guy with a Blue name to stop talking, but please, I'd rather not start talking about tier positions.


I'd like to focus on the matchups.
Meh, I tell bowyer to STFU all the time.

Like so.

Bowyer, all your points are valid, but you are a terrible person, and should feel bad about yourself. Shut up.
 

Tyr_03

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lol I'd love to play your Jiggs, Bowyer. I've never seen anyone who can do anything with her (in Brawl atleast.) No one knows anything about that matchup lol.
 

Admiral Pit

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Also, as far as Pit goes, I'm don't whether to call this 45-55 or 50-50. Can we reach an agreement?
Pit has an advantage over Lucas, but not by much.
It's either 60-40 or 55-45 in Pit's favor.

I really would say that those that can edgeguard really well, like Pit, Jiggs, Marth, Kirby, Pit, are good against Lucas. In this case, it's usually the chars with multple jumps that are the best edgeguarders. Pit, with his projectile and multiple jumps, and Jiggs for multiple jumps, that gives Lucas problems when trying to recover. Other chars are the same way.
 

Tyr_03

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55-45 Pit's favour if anything. I really don't see it being anything more than that. If it was all my decision I'd say 50-50.
 

Chuee

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One thing you might want to add to the lucas vs ness & lucas vs lucas is that you can use the orb when they're trying to recover with pkt. My friend that uses lucas has done that to me before in lucas dittos.
 

Ukiyasan

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Pit/Lucas is dead even. Lucas must play extremely offensive, but he can keep even in this matchup.
First, they each nullify the others main projectile (PSI Magnet eats arrows, while Pit's shield reflects PK Fire) Second, each character can easily gimp the other when playing the edge game. PKT destroys Pit's Up-B while Pit can go out and knock Lucas futher and futher away from a stage with ease. As for ground game, Lucas has an advantage IF he sticks with non-laggy moves (F-smash, jab combo, tilts, even PSI Magnet). due to the range advantage. Both characters can pressure shields with N-air. Pit has a slight advantage in the air because of the range of his F-air. Also consider that Lucas has a better grab game too. If he misses, Pit can punish, but if he connects, a back-throw or forward-throw off the edge will set Lucas up for his edge game against Pit.

So in my honest opinion, it must be 50-50. In reality, its probably like 51-49, but lets just say 50-50 for easy saying.
 

Blackbelt

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Pit/Lucas is dead even. Lucas must play extremely offensive, but he can keep even in this matchup.
First, they each nullify the others main projectile (PSI Magnet eats arrows, while Pit's shield reflects PK Fire) Second, each character can easily gimp the other when playing the edge game. PKT destroys Pit's Up-B while Pit can go out and knock Lucas futher and futher away from a stage with ease. As for ground game, Lucas has an advantage IF he sticks with non-laggy moves (F-smash, jab combo, tilts, even PSI Magnet). due to the range advantage. Both characters can pressure shields with N-air. Pit has a slight advantage in the air because of the range of his F-air. Also consider that Lucas has a better grab game too. If he misses, Pit can punish, but if he connects, a back-throw or forward-throw off the edge will set Lucas up for his edge game against Pit.

So in my honest opinion, it must be 50-50. In reality, its probably like 51-49, but lets just say 50-50 for easy saying.
Lucas does not have a good grab game. At all.
 
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