Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[ChaosTheoryX]

Lucas shuts down olimar's approaches too.

um...since when did olimar have to approach? He can pretty much force almost any character in the game to approach him, and if they try to outcamp him they will find their damage racking up from all the pikmin being thrown at them, and even if they have moves that kill them there is always small points of time where the pikmin are eating away before they are killed off by moves. After a certain point all olimar has to do is run in with a smash attack or his rediculous pivot grab and you are pretty muh screwed.

yeah but Chaos, how often is he going to hav all yellow pikmin? you can still approach with nair but u hav to be careful about it
and i know the red pikmin can survive PKF, but how about the yellow ones?
and if he does throw a yellow pikmin, our nair cant take care of it but can our jab?

I said that he will often have the majority of his pikmin being yellow. Ive seen it before while fighting olimars. Also I said the the usefulness of nair becomes lower as the game progresses due to this fact. I never said anything about other moves not being able to kill yellow pimin, but nair is the best option that lucas has to kill the pikmin off that does not have any lag if autocancelled.

Yes you can still approach with nair but this only leaves a small portion of olimars body that you can actually approach him somewhat safely at. All the olimar player has to do is figure out which angle you are comming from and change up their play style just slightly to compansate for it and bam. Lucas is screwed.

 

[DanGR]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6712021#post6712021

lucas wants you to talk about why your side b is better than his.

but really it's pretty even.

Were you serious? Or was it to get us to come in here...

Olimar outcamps Lucas, has better racking, pivotgrabs... blah, blah, blah. I don't like talking about this matchup. I think it's a solid advantage for Olimar. I really just need to post some vids sometime.

 

[Dabuz]

hello people, i am a messenger from the olimar boards to give you my lowdown on this matchup

first, specific matchup olimar advantages, we won't have to approach ever, we can camp you very easily if done right so thats no problem for us

we beat you on the ground, trust us, you won't beat us on the ground because of our ridiculous grab, even though your attacks go through our forward smash

we can punish predictable air approaches, plain and simple, if you get predictable with air approaches like nair or dair our up-b can easily punish them and make your approach useless

we will not be killed easily, you smashes will be out spaced, and your aerials don't have enough power to downright kill us easily and with correct di you won't be edgeguarding us easily

we can kill you at the 70s with our powerful smashes and grabs combined with good edgeguarding techniques, which with purples being thrown at you you will have a hard time recovering

we can grab combo you at low peecnts for an easy 40%

your advantages, great aerial approaches, yes, i said we can predict and punish but you still do have great aerial approaches that can knock us in the air, and if your a smart lucas we will have trouble getting back on ground

you will kill olimar at close range, if you get close enough to ftilt olimar we can't do much, our pivots will be stopped by nairs or dairs, your tilts and jabs will stop grabbing and go through our attacks, we can't space you, your grab will be easy you land because shielding is the only viable option against lucas because if we roll you can punish, so once your close range play it smart and olimar has little options

you outprioritize us, all your ground moves beat out our if it isn't a yellow pikmin, and your aerials all beat out our up air, with is really high priority, and your dair especcially is viscous to us

if you can quickly get an up-b on olimar then you will be in prime position to kill us while we are high in the air probably off stage if not dead

other little notes, our red pikmin go through your pk fire

our yellow pikmin aren't affected by your electric attacks

purple pikmin are our greatest edgeguarding tool

our super armor(whistle) can stop all of your killing moves


generally olimar for this match will mostly just run and camp you because we can stop most of your approaches and you beat us out at close range,

at low percents we will try to go for the grab for huge damage

when you get to about 90%-110% is when we will go for the kill


generally lucas should just try a variety of air approaches to get close and then keep the pressure on olimar with tilts, jabs, and grabs to launch us into the air

there is no point to try to camp us or play defensive in this match, because you will fail horribly

you shouldn't really try to go for a kill until like 110% atleast unless you can get a lucky fsmash/dsmash on olimar near the edge


this matchup really seems to lie somewhere in between 55-45 to 45-55 honestly

 

[Dotcom]

Lucas shuts down olimar's approaches too.

I'm intruiged, please elaborate. As far as I know
1)We don't have to approach, we make you do it.
2) We have several approach options , So which ones do you think you shut down and why?

^^^^^
wow you post like you've been here for awhile=]
you dont sound like a noob at all HelpR
but we dont hav to worry about getting footstooled while trying to edgeguard. we can edgeguard safely on the stage by PKT, PKfreeze and PKfire(PKF is great for edgeguarding btw. i'm trying to use it more often)
if u wanna get tricky tho, then u can bair, dair, fair, nair etc.

RopeSnake isnt a bad idea...its risky tho...i like it!

Join date isn't everything.
We are either going to airdodge most of those, or if we can't say you use an Aerial. (if you really want to risk it) We WILL spam whistle, get back to the stage, and then gimp you without too much of a problem. Though Olimar is a gimp target, he can do it himself fairly easy with outo thether.

 

[Levitas]

I'm serious that I think it's somewhat even. Lucas deals with campy characters quite well. I'm absolutely NOT serious about lucas having a side b that's better than olimar's. That's totally a ploy to get you guys in here.

I'm gonna go through the stuff that people have posted and pick out what I want to respond to/what I think is important here.

whoops, thought I added that next post in an edit box here.

 

[Levitas]

hello people, i am a messenger from the olimar boards to give you my lowdown on this matchup

first, specific matchup olimar advantages, we won't have to approach ever, we can camp you very easily if done right so thats no problem for us

Sorry, but your color ends there. I don't feel like typing very much extra.

As for camping, we have a frame 21-38 projectile that is very reasonable at making other projectiles not get near us as well as a reflection box out on frame 14. In addition, we have a jab out on frame 2 that stops your projectiles in particular from getting closer, and everyone has a shield.

We throw stuff, and if you don't get your stuff out before ours is even close to you, it's 6% damage. We reflect your stuff and it hurts you.

We're good at getting your latched pikmin off quickly

we beat you on the ground, trust us, you won't beat us on the ground because of our ridiculous grab, even though your attacks go through our forward smash

your grab is the same as our wavebounced pk fires. we don't have to play that game. All we have to do is not chase you into the grab.

we can punish predictable air approaches, plain and simple, if you get predictable with air approaches like nair or dair our up-b can easily punish them and make your approach useless

Any idiot can punish predictable air approaches.

we will not be killed easily, you smashes will be out spaced, and your aerials don't have enough power to downright kill us easily and with correct di you won't be edgeguarding us easily

Our aerials combo into our smashes.

we can kill you at the 70s with our powerful smashes and grabs combined with good edgeguarding techniques, which with purples being thrown at you you will have a hard time recovering

you're wrong. You won't kill a lucas at 70

we can grab combo you at low peecnts for an easy 40%

So can falco, and we're quite good at dealing with him.

our super armor(whistle) can stop all of your killing moves

Not our dsmash.

generally olimar for this match will mostly just run and camp you because we can stop most of your approaches and you beat us out at close range,

at low percents we will try to go for the grab for huge damage

when you get to about 90%-110% is when we will go for the kill

Our gameplan is to camp you from a longer distance than you want us to be at with PK freeze on a flat stage w/o platforms until you get close enough that we can close in at the same time. We have a longer projectile and a better in your face game, so if our plan works, it's as effective as if your plan works.

there is no point to try to camp us or play defensive in this match, because you will fail horribly

you shouldn't really try to go for a kill until like 110% atleast unless you can get a lucky fsmash/dsmash on olimar near the edge


this matchup really seems to lie somewhere in between 55-45 to 45-55 honestly

I agree with your numbers, though I'd put it at 55-45 olimar or maybe 60-40 depending on how this debate goes.

As for playing defensively, I disagree wholeheartedly. If we see you outside your grab range doing something, all we have to do is press A and it fails. If we see you trying to throw something, we can fsmash or retreat. If you're too far away, PK freeze is actually useful for once.

I'm intruiged, please elaborate. As far as I know
1)We don't have to approach, we make you do it.
2) We have several approach options , So which ones do you think you shut down and why?

We make you get w/in a medium range and can either close the gap or shut off your camping game fairly well from there.

We can punish most of your approaches with either a jab, AC nair, or FH Dair.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Join date isn't everything.
We are either going to airdodge most of those, or if we can't say you use an Aerial. (if you really want to risk it) We WILL spam whistle, get back to the stage, and then gimp you without too much of a problem. Though Olimar is a gimp target, he can do it himself fairly easy with outo thether.

True about join date but lately in the lucas boards, the new people hav no clue what their talking about.
aerials are an high risk when we try to gimp, but lucas doesnt need to jump off. my point was if u want to be fancy u can jump off and go after lolimar, but it's better to stay on stage and use PKT, PKF, PKFreeze because we're safe there

 

[Dabuz]

Olimar has better straight up camping options, but lucas has better counter-camping options and solid walling moves at a range.

Olimar may have better racking, but lucas has a couple solid death combos that follow directly from his safest approaches at med-high percents.

not always, if dies right we can avoid most kill combos

Olimar may have a better pivotgrab, but lucas never needs to stop pressuring because he doesn't run out of crap to throw, and the amount he throws doesn't have any effect on his recovery if things go wrong.

but olimar won't need to pressure, but otherwise, true/FONT]

Olimar is lighter than lucas, has similar strength in his KO moves, and has a far and away inferior recovery.

olimar has purples for early kills and for gimping lucas, so it evens out

This is not a fun matchup for most people, but I like it a lot.

you are a god among men


Sorry, but your color ends there. I don't feel like typing very much extra.

As for camping, we have a frame 21-38 projectile that is very reasonable at making other projectiles not get near us as well as a reflection box out on frame 14. In addition, we have a jab out on frame 2 that stops your projectiles in particular from getting closer, and everyone has a shield.

We throw stuff, and if you don't get your stuff out before ours is even close to you, it's 6% damage. We reflect your stuff and it hurts you.

We're good at getting your latched pikmin off quickly

see bottom

your grab is the same as our wavebounced pk fires. we don't have to play that game. All we have to do is not chase you into the grab.

true, but we mainly want to go for shieldgrabs, but your right

Any idiot can punish predictable air approaches.

exactly, im just saying, oli can stop ground approaches so don't get predictable in air

Our aerials combo into our smashes.

smart di>brawl "combos"

you're wrong. You won't kill a lucas at 70

purple upsmash my friend, that kills early, and also, blue backthrow off edge to edgeguard with purples, i should of said, that the earliest we can kill, but we won't kill on average to about 110%

So can falco, and we're quite good at dealing with him.

olimars's grabbing>falcos grabbing, just saying


Not our dsmash.

you may be right, i haven't tested wac on dsmash test actually, theoretically it can be done but until i prove or disprove it ill just say your right

Our gameplan is to camp you from a longer distance than you want us to be at with PK freeze on a flat stage w/o platforms until you get close enough that we can close in at the same time. We have a longer projectile and a better in your face game, so if our plan works, it's as effective as if your plan works.

see bottom

I agree with your numbers, though I'd put it at 55-45 olimar or maybe 60-40 depending on how this debate goes.

55-45 max

As for playing defensively, I disagree wholeheartedly. If we see you outside your grab range doing something, all we have to do is press A and it fails. If we see you trying to throw something, we can fsmash or retreat. If you're too far away, PK freeze is actually useful for once.

see bottom


We make you get w/in a medium range and can either close the gap or shut off your camping game fairly well from there.

true, but if we predict how you try that its back to square one

We can punish most of your approaches with either a jab, AC nair, or FH Dair.

like we will approach ever, lol, too funny

the only thing i disagree with is your disagreement on camping, the fact of the matter is, if shorthopped we can reach you from anywhere with our projectile,

if we have a yellow and aim is right you can't aerial it and because it arcs we can make it go over your fsmash and jab and latch, if you do jab of fsmash our pikmin in that lag we can punish easily,

also, our red pikmin go through your sideb and will allow even more pikmin to latch, the problem is the fact that while we don't have great pikmin damage racking abilities in this matchup we can actually do small bits of damage here and here meaning we still out camp you

also, our purple goes through alot of your anti camp stuff

otherwise, i aagree with what you say on this matchup, i think you just don't know how the really good olis camp

 

[HelpR]

concerning my rope snake comment:

The way I see it, if the lucas were to extend his rope snake completely, so as to have it out to it's maximum length, and the olimar is not close enough to perform aerials, but more then close enough to use his up special (let's say.... 3-4 pikmin length?) As the pikmin go in a set angle (somewhere in the range of 35-55 degrees off the y axis,) the range in which the lucas can be hit by the up B is different between the bottom of the tether and the top.

If the olimar makes the choice to go and tries to take out the lucas (who obviously isnt budging from the ledge) there is only a few spots where he would have a chance to land the attack, however, these spots overlap little. and therein lies my reasoning beind it.

in b4 it gets blown open, but it seems to work for me. more then having my back air get whistle canceled anyways.

 

[_clinton]

Olimar is one of those people I'd rather use Ness for...anyway...I'm aware that Purple Pikmin have this fun habit of taking you with them if they grab you in the air as far as recovery goes...but I'm also aware of the dodge button and how good Lucas' recovery is even without any advanced techs.

Kill wise I'm thinking Olimar is going to beat Lucas in that area...his Pikmin are ****ing beasts...note that Lucas' has kill throws as well (even if they aren't as good as Olimar's)
Also...Olimar's Uair to Lucas' Dair...I wonder what would win? I'm thinking Olimar of course if he uses a yellow...but I'm not sure on the others...

 

[Tyr_03]

This is a dumb conversation.

When playing Lucas:
-Large, flat stages are not necesarily bad for you. You CAN counter Olimar's camping unlike many.
-If Olimar is ever running at you outside of his foxtrot range, he's going to grab you. Usmash you can see coming a mile away, same with dash attack, so just avoid the grab, it's going to happen. He might run behind you and pivot grab, you should be fast enough to react to this if you're paying attention.
-If you're getting chaingrabbed, DON'T AIRDODGE, JUMP!!!!!! You can escape these really easily without too much damage if you just double jump out most of the time.
- Spotdodging is bad, airdodging near the ground is bad. Olimar has great punishments for these, namely Fsmash, grabs (watch for purples because they're weirdly slow,) and even Usmash for airdodges.
-Pikmin aren't a big deal. Use Dair to get them off. It kills or knocks off every color. "Oh no I can't kill yellow pikmin, I'm doomed!!" wrong. If they're not latched onto you, they don't matter. You have enough aerial mobility with Dair that you won't be punished if you're smart and can stop Oli's camping.
-Red pikmin aren't a big deal either. Just because they go through PK Fire doesn't really matter. It just means you might take like 2% damage. Oh noes. Use Dair to get it off you and continue counter camping.
- On big stages, you can bat pikmin right back at him without worrying about getting punished. This works great for countering camping on FD. It's also very funny.
-Dair clanks with his Usmash, nuff said.
-Gimp with PKT1. It's too easy. There's nothing he can do about ledgewhipping. Just do your best to hit him low rather than high and don't stand too close to the ledge to avoid surprise Uairs through the stage and things like that. Edgehog afterward for easy kills. Once Oli is offstage, he's yours. Lucas has a deadly edgeguard game against him, I don't care what any olimar player says.
-You need to use mixups to approach. Olimar is a very good defensive character. Well spaced full hop Dairs work pretty well but you're going to have to mix in Nairs (especially from a full hop for the unexpected) and lots of JABS. Jabs are good against Oli. A misspaced full hop Dair means getting grabbed. So be careful.
-DI to the side of Oli's Uair to avoid getting hurt too badly by it. It's an overrated move in general. Avoidable and not strong if you know how to DI it.
-Rainbow Cruise is a decent counterpick, Frigate Orpheon is okay but not as good as you might think. Olimar gets good pikmin plucks there. Brinstar is a good standard if you're not comfortable with Rainbow Cruise because it's always good for Lucas and it inhibits some of Olimar's camping (even though it can help his recovery a little bit.) Delfino is pretty good too for circular ledgewhipping and water PKT1 edgeguards but it's personally not my favorite stage. Easy to get killed early by Olimar's pumped throws.

I've played Hilt a lot and he's a good Olimar player. Played a few others in random tourneys and stuff too. I really couldn't care less what the matchup ratio is. I beat Olimar players. The above are HOW I beat Olimar players. I've also played Olimar a bit so I have an idea of how he works which helps me out.

Lucas players, you should read my post and consider my advice on beating Olimar.

Olimar players, you should read my post and consider how to avoid all the things I just said I use to beat you.

This is what matchup threads should have. Not endless arguments on whose character can beat whose, but solid, tested, advice on how to beat certain characters. I hope it helps someone. If you have any questions reguarding what I've said, feel free to ask or want more specific advice, PM me. If you're going to give a point by point argument on my post, then don't bother because I won't respond. PM me and I'll go into further detail on why certain things work and how you can get around them as Olimar players.

Peace.

 

[Dabuz]

This is a dumb conversation.

When playing Lucas:
-Large, flat stages are not necesarily bad for you. You CAN counter Olimar's camping unlike many.
-If Olimar is ever running at you outside of his foxtrot range, he's going to grab you. Usmash you can see coming a mile away, same with dash attack, so just avoid the grab, it's going to happen. He might run behind you and pivot grab, you should be fast enough to react to this if you're paying attention.
-If you're getting chaingrabbed, DON'T AIRDODGE, JUMP!!!!!! You can escape these really easily without too much damage if you just double jump out most of the time.
- Spotdodging is bad, airdodging near the ground is bad. Olimar has great punishments for these, namely Fsmash, grabs (watch for purples because they're weirdly slow,) and even Usmash for airdodges.
-Pikmin aren't a big deal. Use Dair to get them off. It kills or knocks off every color. "Oh no I can't kill yellow pikmin, I'm doomed!!" wrong. If they're not latched onto you, they don't matter. You have enough aerial mobility with Dair that you won't be punished if you're smart and can stop Oli's camping.
-Red pikmin aren't a big deal either. Just because they go through PK Fire doesn't really matter. It just means you might take like 2% damage. Oh noes. Use Dair to get it off you and continue counter camping.
- On big stages, you can bat pikmin right back at him without worrying about getting punished. This works great for countering camping on FD. It's also very funny.
-Dair clanks with his Usmash, nuff said.
-Gimp with PKT1. It's too easy. There's nothing he can do about ledgewhipping. Just do your best to hit him low rather than high and don't stand too close to the ledge to avoid surprise Uairs through the stage and things like that. Edgehog afterward for easy kills. Once Oli is offstage, he's yours. Lucas has a deadly edgeguard game against him, I don't care what any olimar player says.
-You need to use mixups to approach. Olimar is a very good defensive character. Well spaced full hop Dairs work pretty well but you're going to have to mix in Nairs (especially from a full hop for the unexpected) and lots of JABS. Jabs are good against Oli. A misspaced full hop Dair means getting grabbed. So be careful.
-DI to the side of Oli's Uair to avoid getting hurt too badly by it. It's an overrated move in general. Avoidable and not strong if you know how to DI it.
-Rainbow Cruise is a decent counterpick, Frigate Orpheon is okay but not as good as you might think. Olimar gets good pikmin plucks there. Brinstar is a good standard if you're not comfortable with Rainbow Cruise because it's always good for Lucas and it inhibits some of Olimar's camping (even though it can help his recovery a little bit.) Delfino is pretty good too for circular ledgewhipping and water PKT1 edgeguards but it's personally not my favorite stage. Easy to get killed early by Olimar's pumped throws.

I've played Hilt a lot and he's a good Olimar player. Played a few others in random tourneys and stuff too. I really couldn't care less what the matchup ratio is. I beat Olimar players. The above are HOW I beat Olimar players. I've also played Olimar a bit so I have an idea of how he works which helps me out.

Lucas players, you should read my post and consider my advice on beating Olimar.

Olimar players, you should read my post and consider how to avoid all the things I just said I use to beat you.

This is what matchup threads should have. Not endless arguments on whose character can beat whose, but solid, tested, advice on how to beat certain characters. I hope it helps someone. If you have any questions reguarding what I've said, feel free to ask or want more specific advice, PM me. If you're going to give a point by point argument on my post, then don't bother because I won't respond. PM me and I'll go into further detail on why certain things work and how you can get around them as Olimar players.

Peace.

there you go folks, this guy knows what lucas needs to do in this matchup perfectly, heck, i would love to fight this kid on wifi(if he don't hate wifi) so i can see exactly how olimar should fight a prepared lucas, but yeah, listen to this guy, hes pretty dead on

 

[DanGR]

Soooo, I can't explain why a couple of the things you said don't work against Olis that know the matchup better? How many times have you played with each of these Olimar players? You said you played Hilt a lot, but I'm questioning how much work Hilt has put into learning the matchup. I'm sure you know your side of the matchup well, but from the looks of it, your opponents don't.

 

[c3gill]

Soooo, I can't explain why a couple of the things you said don't work against Olis that know the matchup better? How many times have you played with each of these Olimar players? You said you played Hilt a lot, but I'm questioning how much work Hilt has put into learning the matchup. I'm sure you know your side of the matchup well, but from the looks of it, your opponents don't.

Point: Best Lucas advantage EVER- no one initially knows how to play him, because so few people main him. so at the beginning of (NOTE: most) fights, we have an advantage.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Point: Best Lucas advantage EVER- no one initially knows how to play him, because so few people main him. so at the beginning of (NOTE: most) fights, we have an advantage.

true that
most people think fighting Lucas is like fighting Ness; which it's NOT

 

[_clinton]

true that
most people think fighting Lucas is like fighting Ness; which it's NOT

People know how to fight Ness?

 

[Levitas]

dabuz, our kill combo can be teched out of, but not DI'd. And you are claiming that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Purple smashes aren't your gods and should never be. That seems to be 2/3 of your argument.


Our Dsmash is 3 hits on frames 20, 29, and 39. Nobody does anything to outlast it, especially if it hits something (hitlag extends that thing like nobody's business).

Your shorthop side b is the worst thing you can do against our PK freeze. You'd willingly put yourself in lag in a position where you're going to be hit? If you're doing it after freeze has ended, we have enough time to fsmash a pikmin back toward you.

I'll test the launch speeds for lucas vs oli and vice versa today.

Tyr, if your comment was aimed at me, you're being ********. Debate is important, and I'm basing my arguments on a combination of facts and experience. You also haven't actually contradicted ANYTHING I've said. You've reiterated points I've made, but I see no contradictions.

dabuz, way to completely agree with my numbers but argue agains my points and then agree with someone who says a couple of my points (jabs, dair, counter-camping). Pick whether you don't like my points or do, not whether you don't like when I say my points or someone else does.

C3gill, that's a statment that can be made for any character at one point or another. Except MK. And the rest of top/high tier.

DanGR: how many lucases have you played? If you're gonna critisize an olimar that has actually played a lucas a lot, you'd better have played the matchup enough yourself.

 

[Tyr_03]

No it wasn't really aimed at you. More random Olimar players coming here to say "lolz that will never work. Olimar is waaaay better. blah blah blah." I honestly barely read any of the posts that you made or anyone else for that matter.

I have to disagree on your assertion that debate is important though. I don't really see how debate on this particular topic has any relevance whatsoever. The point of the Lucas boards are to help Lucas players, not prove Olimar players wrong. But yeah, I wasn't trying to offend you so I'm sorry if I did.

And to whoever was questioning me or whatever, like I said, PM me.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'm going to have to agree with both dabuz's wall of text and tyr's. Yes, Lucas shuts down olimar's approaches, except for maybe... fair? (preferably yellow)

But olimar has more camping options than lucas. But lucas gets rid of those camping tools (quite easily), as lucas can quickly dispose of latched pikmin. This CAN create openings for olimar to approach, but if timed wrong... well as levitas said, most of olimar's approaches can be shut down by lucas. And lucas' SH'd approaches can be troublesome.

Lucas' approaches are decent, come short hopped, and out prioritize his smashes. Pivot grabs can even sometimes be difficult. A good (or smart) olimar is going to merely camp the whole time. Why not, right? We can out camp him, and our approaches are going to often be shut down.

As for killing... going for oppenings when lucas disposes of the pikmin, or short hopped fairs are the main tools for kills for olimar. Also, purple pikmin are much, MUCH better in this matchup than any other color. Purple is easy damage, that cant be done away with like a latched pikmin can, and it creates openings due to the knockback that are otherwise often difficult to find. So a stage like delphino wouldnt be bad, and especially frigate (for purples and yellow), but there really arent too many stages that give increases for purples.

As for the matchup numbers... i dunno, it's close to 50:50, if it's in either's favor it's only slight. Us saying "it's 60:40 olimar because we can camp better than you" is stupid.

 

[Levitas]

cool. I think we're pretty much done with this unless someone's got something else.

I think 50-50 on stages like smashville and FD and 55-45 on most others is fairly accurate.

 

[Tyr_03]

Agreed. Overall I'd call it even. And Hilt's right. Purples are the most annoying color for Lucas to deal with.

 

[Irsic]

Agreed, they are what ruin approaches for me. :\ Yellow aren't a big deal at all to me.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

yeah, yellows only give us better approaches, as it's easier to out range/prioritize you. other than that their only use is to make it a tad harder to get off, from latch.

 

[ToxiCrow]

it's close to 50:50, if it's in either's favor it's only slight. Us saying "it's 60:40 olimar because we can camp better than you" is stupid.

I think 50-50 on stages like smashville and FD and 55-45 on most others is fairly accurate.

Overall I'd call it even.

well i guess both boards agreed that this match up is even
time for the next character

 

[Irsic]

well i guess both boards agreed that this match up is even
time for the next character

WHO DAT

10dats

 

[c3gill]

we should do Lucas next, i heard its 100-0 in Lucas' Favor. Its his worst (and best) match-up. Lucas always wins!

 

[Levitas]

I contacted blackbelt, I haven't seen him post in a while and wanna make sure he's still on the boards.

If he doesn't respond for a while, I'll take over leading discussion, and if he's still inactive in a longer while (like a month), I'll commandeer this thread.

In the meantime, we'll just wait patiently and not do anything here.

edit: he was last on like 2 days ago, so he's still on the boards at least, lol.

 

[heytallman]

I contacted blackbelt, I haven't seen him post in a while and wanna make sure he's still on the boards.

If he doesn't respond for a while, I'll take over leading discussion, and if he's still inactive in a longer while (like a month), I'll commandeer this thread.

In the meantime, we'll just wait patiently and not do anything here.

edit: he was last on like 2 days ago, so he's still on the boards at least, lol.

lol I kept seeing this thread bumped in my user CP, but I just thought we were still discussing Mario somehow D: I was about to make a post like "we're still discussing Mario wtf" but I see Blackbelt has been MIA. Weak.

 

[Levitas]

I've talked to blackbelt, and it seems bowser types don't like our numbers, so let's talk about him next.

If you guys want to get a jump on this, feel free to invite the bowsers over here, but I'll be gone for a couple days.

 

[c3gill]

Bowser? ummm we are small and our attacks come out (compared to him!) somewhat fast. His recovery is rather gimpable. He is very powerful, and can easily KO Lucas early. However- It is very easy to space in this match-up, and Bowsers approachs are kinda easy to punish. His tilts have insane range, and his specials have pretty awesome priority. His grabs will kill us fast, if not immediatly (suicide).

Lucas can throw lots of PK Fire, and use lots of aerials cause Bowser is big and heavy(easier target to sweetspot nair). I think its in Lucas' favor, but no landslide.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Uhm, OOS fortress beats you

Not to mention Bowser has a CG on you.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser is not as gimpable as people make him out to be. That's like saying Lucario is easy to gimp.

Fortress has invincibility frames and goes through everything with proper timing. As long as it's used correctly, Bowser shouldn't be getting gimped all that much.


Also, chaingrabs. Lucas gets wrecked by them, and he's the 2nd easiest character for Bowser to CG imo. I think Dorf is the easiest. ^^

 

[Broly]

bah, lucas shouldnt have too many bad matchups, the chaingrabbers fine, but lucas AAA combo gives good spacing...to me lucas beats ness in all accounts cept for throw and d-air...lucas should be a mid tier if it werent for grab releases, but i hate fighting GW personally, as well as diddy, but other than that, skill can define matchups more than character qualities.

 

[ToxiCrow]

are they grab release/regrab? cuz i no bowser can do lots of things out of a grab release to lucas but i didnt no he can regrab him again.

Uhm, OOS fortress beats you

Uhm, SHPK fire beats you
and when lucas is spacing properly, he can avoid the fortress and pivot grab bowser

 

[Tyr_03]

Yeah they are grab release regrabs. Pretty sure it's inescapable but I could be wrong. The good part is that it's very easy to avoid getting grabbed by Bowser if you space well. Camp Bowser as much as possible. There is literally no reason to approach him and his approaches aren't great.

 

[ToxiCrow]

i love.......Tyr?!

as for the gimping game, lucas PKT can travel a good distance before it dissappears. and since boozer is a big target, its not hard to miss him
lucas has lots of things he can do off stage to edgeguard/Gimp ; PKF, PKT, PKFreeze, Bair, Dair

 

[MrEh]

Bowser has a lot of things he can do to Lucas offstage as well.

And yes, the chaingrab is inescapable, and will continue until you reach the ledge, where we will either tilt you or use an aerial. Or even a Bowser Bomb if you don't predict it coming.

and when lucas is spacing properly, he can avoid the fortress and pivot grab bowser

You can't avoid the Fortress when we're punishing you every time we see you lag. The only time you can avoid the fortress is if we're using it as a head on attack, which we won't be.

 

[Tyr_03]

Honestly, it's really hard to find anyone who has accurate information for this matchup since there are so few good Bowser players and so few good lucas players. I've played Sliq's bowser but only like once or twice and they were friendlies (since he doesn't do money matches and is usually too busy to attend tournaments I'm at.) I will say that I honestly think that Lucas has atleast a slight advantage. I would be really interested to hear arguments by Bowser players for what they think the matchup ratio should be and why (preferably with reasons other than just grab releases.)

Because there really is no reason for Lucas to approach Bowser at all, not to mention the fact that Lucas has one of very very few actually safe moves against shields even against Up B out of shield (Nair,) I really don't think that grab release hits are significant enough to give Bowser an advantage by itself.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Bowser has a lot of things he can do to Lucas offstage as well.

You can't avoid the Fortress when we're punishing you every time we see you lag. The only time you can avoid the fortress is if we're using it as a head on attack, which we won't be.

I'd like to know what those things are. i've only played one bowser before

as for the lag, which moves are u talking about?
Downsmash does lag, but it also has pretty good range and it hits 3 times. we dont hav to be that close to hit with it. so if lucas spaces the way he's supposed to, then he doesnt hav to worry about lag

 

[Irsic]

I've...never had a problem dealing with Fortress before. If the Lucas player is spacing his PK Fires correctly, you won't ever get a chance to punish him because of that.