Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[heytallman]

lol bowser suxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

JK. Seriously, chaingrabs do suck, but only if you get grabbed. As everyone else is saying, camp a lot, and just chill, it'll be fine. I think fortress cancels out PKT if the head hits the side? I'm not sure though. Either way, I believe Lucas wins.

 

[Irsic]

I'm not to sure about this and it will require some testing, but I have my bets that our dair goes through late fortress frames, like it goes through DK's spinning kong.

 

[B!squick]

I'm not gonna get into a debate as to who has the bigger ***** in this match up. So I'm just gonna state what Bowser does/will try to do.

Bowser has a massive shield to mitigate projectile spam. One of his best approaches is to just dash at you and power shield when appropriate. When near, again, the shield comes into play against X attack and then any number of follow ups are possible: Grab, Klaw (the other grab), Fortress, Jab, FTilt, Jab Cancelled Grab, whatever.

Another good approach is Klaw Hopping which is very unprdictable. Klaw itself is disjointed when airbourne and has a landing lag of only a couple frames. Plus, it's a grab. So when you play Bowser, watch out for both of them.

And he had the Bowser Bomb OoS or even better, out of Grab Release. It wont take long to get to kill percents for a Grounded Bowser Bomb KO.

With proper DI reading at low percents a Klaw can usually be followed up with a FAir or even another Klaw.

Also, I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oempP1ZTUs&fmt=18

I may not be NinjaLink and I have no idea how good that Lucas is, but it does show how brutal Bowser can be in the right hands.

Plus, most people when in a tournament will see Bowser and think, lol, it's Bowser. But chances are he or she knows their match ups well and knows what they're doing, already putting the match in Bowser's favor.

 

[Irsic]

Bowser has a massive shield to mitigate projectile spam. One of his best approaches is to just dash at you and power shield when appropriate. When near, again, the shield comes into play against X attack and then any number of follow ups are possible: Grab, Klaw (the other grab), Fortress, Jab, FTilt, Jab Cancelled Grab, whatever.

Couple things about this - It's great that you have a big shield - but Lucas amazing at countering shield with nair, and it's pretty hard to stop, and no, it's not as simple as just shield grabbing us. Lucas will move behind your grab range through your shield fast enough to stop that. Most Lucas players WANT opponents to just throw up their shield, it makes things rather easy for us.

Another good approach is Klaw Hopping which is very unprdictable. Klaw itself is disjointed when airbourne and has a landing lag of only a couple frames. Plus, it's a grab. So when you play Bowser, watch out for both of them.

In the video, when NL would Klaw Hop, the Lucas kept attemping SHPKF's, which isn't the way to go against Bowser. One FHPKF would have taken care of those mind games, and the wave bounce coming from FHPKF's is huge, and can also be magnet pulled afterwards creating ridiculous Lucas trajectory making him extremely hard to punish for this action.

While NL pulled the stunts in that match about what Bowser can do to Lucas, that mediocre Lucas player at best showed nothing about what Lucas can do to Bowser. :\

10messagesinquotations

 

[ToxiCrow]

I'm not gonna get into a debate as to who has the bigger ***** in this match up. So I'm just gonna state what Bowser does/will try to do

.
You're the only one here talking about genitals. this is a discussion; it may seem like we're fighting, but we're not.

When near, again, the shield comes into play against X attack and then any number of follow ups are possible: Grab, Klaw (the other grab), Fortress, Jab, FTilt, Jab Cancelled Grab, whatever.

Nair auto-cancels. lucas can do another nair, dtilts,jabs, fsmash or utilt. if u try to grab out of a shield, you'll get hit with one of these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oempP1ZTUs&fmt=18

I may not be NinjaLink and I have no idea how good that Lucas is, but it does show how brutal Bowser can be in the right hands.
Plus, most people when in a tournament will see Bowser and think, lol, it's Bowser. But chances are he or she knows their match ups well and knows what they're doing, already putting the match in Bowser's favor.

ninjalink makes any character look good.
also, all those things you said about people not knowing the Bowser match-up can be applied to lucas

 

[_clinton]

I'm not gonna get into a debate as to who has the bigger ***** in this match up. So I'm just gonna state what Bowser does/will try to do.

Bowser has a massive shield to mitigate projectile spam. One of his best approaches is to just dash at you and power shield when appropriate. When near, again, the shield comes into play against X attack and then any number of follow ups are possible: Grab, Klaw (the other grab), Fortress, Jab, FTilt, Jab Cancelled Grab, whatever.

Funny...any character can use that has an approach...

Of course if you want to talk about shield size Lucas' is pretty large overall as well...

Another good approach is Klaw Hopping which is very unprdictable. Klaw itself is disjointed when airbourne and has a landing lag of only a couple frames. Plus, it's a grab. So when you play Bowser, watch out for both of them.

Ok I'll admit that has a use...

And he had the Bowser Bomb OoS or even better, out of Grab Release. It wont take long to get to kill percents for a Grounded Bowser Bomb KO.

You can DI the 2nd hit of Bowser Bomb

With proper DI reading at low percents a Klaw can usually be followed up with a FAir or even another Klaw.

Yep...

I may not be NinjaLink and I have no idea how good that Lucas is, but it does show how brutal Bowser can be in the right hands.

So tell me what is wrong with this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uNeMW4Oxvc

I hope you get my point ^_^

Plus, most people when in a tournament will see Bowser and think, lol, it's Bowser. But chances are he or she knows their match ups well and knows what they're doing, already putting the match in Bowser's favor.

Funny...baseless claim...

 

[itsthebigfoot]

It's great that you have a big shield - but Lucas amazing at countering shield with nair

nair my shield, I dare you

bowser's jump-canceled upb oos have invincibility frames up until the hitbox, so if someone tries to pressure our shield we can just upb and it'll beat whatever attack is over the shield, any attack, it's why you NEVER attack bowsers shield

bowsers best approaches are running shields and the klaw, which has 3 frames of landing lag. to put it in perspective bowsers landing without an attack has 6 frames of landing lag. Luckily for us lucas's camp game isn't nearly as good as rob, snake and falco.

 

[Irsic]

I've never been punished for attacking a shield before. What is the frame data on a grounded Bowser bomb?

edit- err, that came out wrong.

I've never really been punished for nairing a shield before. Out of about the 2000+ shields I've naired before, I've probably been punished a total of like, meh, no greater than 5 times, and I can definitely remember them being my fault.


Also, nice baseless claim about no one knowing the Bowser match-up. You could say the very same for Lucas.

 

[_clinton]

I've never been punished for attacking a shield before. What is the frame data on a grounded Bowser bomb?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206219

bowsers best approaches are running shields and the klaw, which has 3 frames of landing lag. to put it in perspective bowsers landing without an attack has 6 frames of landing lag. Luckily for us lucas's camp game isn't nearly as good as rob, snake and falco.

PK Fire isn't much of a camping move IMO...

 

[itsthebigfoot]

upb is the fortress, not bowser bomb

and frame data = frame 1-5 invincible frame 6-7 ridiculous priority hitbox (does 10% and knocks straight up, combos into the second hitbox), frame 8+ normal hitbox, does 5-6% and knocks up

EDIT: yeah, that was what I was getting at, it isn't hard to approach, and up close bowser wins

 

[Irsic]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206219



PK Fire isn't much of a camping move IMO...

PKFire is the "forces people to approach move" and when played correctly, can be pretty annoying to the opponent.

Grounded Bowser Bomb = Frame 11. Unless those first 11 frames are super armor or invincibility, that will never work against nair.

edit - Oh, I guess that changes things. I just misread downb over upb. :\

Would have to see it done then.

 

[_clinton]

PKFire is the "forces people to approach move" and when played correctly, can be pretty annoying to the opponent.

Maybe I should have wrote it differently as well...I'm aware of the main use of PK Fire...but compared to oh say a laser from Falco...you throw it out far less

 

[B!squick]

I don't know about DIing the 2nd hit of Bowser Bomb, but I do know it can be air dodged. But none ever seems to do either... it could probably be because they don't know they can or how, but more likely it's because they don't expect it.

And yes, I understand that anyone can approach with a dashing shield. They can also approach SHADs. But does everyone? Does Lucas? Does he have a Fortress (UpB) OoS?

Feel free to figure your ways around what Bowser does. I was merely explaining them.

Also:

So tell me what is wrong with this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uNeMW4Oxvc

I hope you get my point ^_^

That's an easy one. 1) That's Ness and Ness does not equal Lucas and 2) That Bowser not only was PK Fired off the stage but he was hit by the PK Thunder Missle thing numerous times.

I think I see the point you're trying to make, but providing footage involving a different char isn't helping me understand it.

 

[Chuee]

Boswer beats us close up but we beat him in the air. Bowsers aerials suck. Fair is about his only aerial that doesnt lag like shet.

Bowser ***** us with his grab release but lucky for us we have jump release so always jump release when he grabs you.

No we probably wont gimp bowser unless we get him down low with a dair or something. His fortress cant be punished easily so dont even try.

Lets stick with dair for approaching in this matchup because nair gets Shield grabbed.

The OP says this matchup is 60-40 our favor but i dont think thats right.
Id say maybe 55-45 since Bowser beats our ground game which is what lucas is best at but lucas still has great aerials and can screw bowser in the air.

EDIT: @JayDeth- That Pk thunder missle thing is called PKT2

 

[B!squick]

EDIT: @JayDeth- That Pk thunder missle thing is called PKT2

Ah, so that's what that meant in the Lucas guide I skimmed over. Personally, I like the name PK Thunder Missile Thing, but PKT2 is good too.

 

[Tyr_03]

Nair has a 0 frame shield advantage which means Lucas can shield Up B out of shield.

Also, approaching with shield is not some amazing approach. It's both predictable and punishable.

 

[B!squick]

Nair has a 0 frame shield advantage which means Lucas can shield Up B out of shield.

Wait, you mean NAir has 0 frames of landing lag? O_o

 

[Irsic]

Wait, you mean NAir has 0 frames of landing lag? O_o

...it has the exact same amount of landing lag as if Lucas were to short hop, and do nothing.

SHNair's autocancel.

edit- it actually may be less than that

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Boswer beats us close up but we beat him in the air. Bowsers aerials suck. Fair is about his only aerial that doesnt lag like shet.

Bowser ***** us with his grab release but lucky for us we have jump release so always jump release when he grabs you.

No we probably wont gimp bowser unless we get him down low with a dair or something. His fortress cant be punished easily so dont even try.

Lets stick with dair for approaching in this matchup because nair gets Shield grabbed.

The OP says this matchup is 60-40 our favor but i dont think thats right.
Id say maybe 55-45 since Bowser beats our ground game which is what lucas is best at but lucas still has great aerials and can screw bowser in the air.

EDIT: @JayDeth- That Pk thunder missle thing is called PKT2

bowser's fair and aerial sideb are plenty, trust me. bair and uair are for punishing air dodges

bowser can regrab on jump releases, so jumping out would just speed up the process of us fairing you off the ledge/dtilting you at the ledge

dair and nair are both unsafe on bowsers shield due to his fortress. I repeat, DO NOT HIT BOWSERS SHIELD. fortress shouldn't be punished because we only use it as a punish, it just punishes everything because we can do it without dropping our shield

bowser has the advantage, he beats you on the ground, he lives much longer than you, he ko's much earlier, and he can punish everything you do, either with sideb after the attack, or upb during the attack. very few characters (DK and maybe pikachu, maybe, its unlikely) can pressure bowsers shields, lucas is not one of them

 

[Irsic]

You beat us on the ground?

Please. Also, Lucas fsmash says hi. Big targets like Bowser are in no way hard to hit with it, and fresh, it will kill at like 90% on Bowser. He doesn't live that long against Lucas.

Also, what happens on a jump release if we land on a platform?

 

[MrEh]

Fortress OoS absolutely destroys any aerial that has low range. And lacks disjoint. Sound like the Nair?

You beat us on the ground? Please. Also, Lucas fsmash says hi.

The Fsmash is one good ground move.

Bowser has 5. ^^

 

[Irsic]

Fsmash was for killing. Kills Bowser early, kills anyone early, it's extremely strong, and quite fast.


Other good ground moves ->

Ftilt -> IASA frames, incredible range, incredibly safe attack on shields.
utilt -> Juggles Bowser easily, lots of damage build up.
Jab -> Pretty much stops anything Bowser has unless his jab is also frame 2
dtilt -> Since Bowser is a fatty these are easy to land on him to interrupt and frame trap


What? Just because I only mentioned fsmash doesn't mean our other ground moves suck.

 

[MrEh]

Fsmash was for killing. Kills Bowser early, kills anyone early, it's extremely strong, and quite fast.


Other good ground moves ->

Ftilt -> IASA frames, incredible range, incredibly safe attack on shields.
utilt -> Juggles Bowser easily, lots of damage build up.
Jab -> Pretty much stops anything Bowser has unless his jab is also frame 2
dtilt -> Since Bowser is a fatty these are easy to land on him to interrupt and frame trap


What? Just because I only mentioned fsmash doesn't mean our other ground moves suck.

Having a faster ground game then Bowser doesn't mean that Lucas's ground game is better. Bowser's has more range. His Jabs and tilts **** hard.

Also, Fsmash countering. It beats every single one of Lucas's ground moves.

 

[B!squick]

Having a faster ground game then Bowser doesn't mean that Lucas's ground game is better. Bowser's has more range. His Jabs and tilts **** hard.

Also, Fsmash countering. It beats every single one of Lucas's ground moves.

Can't beat the Gimpyfish combo. Best spot dodge in the game.

DK's attacks aren't as fast as Lucas'. Is Lucas' ground game better than DK's?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

You beat us on the ground?

Please. Also, Lucas fsmash says hi. Big targets like Bowser are in no way hard to hit with it, and fresh, it will kill at like 90% on Bowser. He doesn't live that long against Lucas.

Also, what happens on a jump release if we land on a platform?

decent di says hi, bowser doesn't die till late, especially since he's the heaviest off the side, lucas's fsmash will not ko him early unless he's DI'ing into the blastzone on purpose, but if you want to argue horrible DI like that, then bowsers ftilt kos you at 80-90 and can be comboed out of grabs

also, if you land on a platform it's only a free fair for us, however, that only applies half the time on battlefield, is very unlikely on sv, and doesn't happen on fd, and even then, you only got a 40% chance to air break.

Fsmash was for killing. Kills Bowser early, kills anyone early, it's extremely strong, and quite fast.


Other good ground moves ->

Ftilt -> IASA frames, incredible range, incredibly safe attack on shields.
utilt -> Juggles Bowser easily, lots of damage build up.
Jab -> Pretty much stops anything Bowser has unless his jab is also frame 2
dtilt -> Since Bowser is a fatty these are easy to land on him to interrupt and frame trap


What? Just because I only mentioned fsmash doesn't mean our other ground moves suck.

your ftilt is outranged bowsers ftilt, jab, or dtilt, we beat that on the ground
your utilt is very unsafe, and even if it does hit, we can upb out of your little utilt lock, which is fun because it puts you at just the right spot to take 20-30%
your jab has no range, loses to our ftilt, sideb and dtilt, clanks with our jab (which outranges yours by a lot), and on the off occasion it hits does very little damage
you will not get in range to land dtilt

bowser has a great ground game, he has better range than almost every character and is a priority monster, lucas has an alright ground game but it does not stack up in comparison to bowsers ridiculousness.

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

Well, from the looks of things so far, I would say that Bowser has advantage on the ground. Lucas does have more speed, but Bowser has more range and priority. He has a way to counter just about all of Lucas's ground moves, but Lucas can still do some decent combos to Bowser because of his size. But still, Bowser sounds like he has a better ground game.

What about Lucas in the air vs. Bowser in the air?

*looks at the fact that the name of the thread is still not updated*

 

[Tyr_03]

You can't just ignore frame data. 0 frame advantage is 0 frame advantage. The facts show Lucas can shield Up B out of shield after nair.

 

[B!squick]

He can just UpB before you finish NAir. Even if it clanks, you don't have a shield up and Bowser is right next to you. :O

 

[lil cj]

Not to be mean but Bowser is no threat to us Lucas mains
I dont see how Bowser > Lucas on the ground when Lucas is clearly faster his jab and ftilt is faster than anything Bowser has
Bowser's fsmash is easily avoided btw
Lucas>Bowser in the air is true...nair has no landing lag, we can do a retreating fair to avoid a shield grab, and dair is hard to punish
And one more thing Bowser is a huge target...so expect bair spikes and PK Freeze/PKT gimps
Nothin against Bowser mains but he has nothing on Lucas and doesnt have a better ground game
60-40
In Lucas' favor

 

[B!squick]

Not to be mean but Bowser is no threat to us Lucas mains
I dont see how Bowser > Lucas on the ground when Lucas is clearly faster his jab and ftilt is faster than anything Bowser has
Bowser's fsmash is easily avoided btw
Lucas>Bowser in the air is true...nair has no landing lag, we can do a retreating fair to avoid a shield grab, and dair is hard to punish
And one more thing Bowser is a huge target...so expect bair spikes and PK Freeze/PKT gimps
Nothin against Bowser mains but he has nothing on Lucas and doesnt have a better ground game
60-40
In Lucas' favor

This made me lol. Zamus has a 1 frame Jab. Does that make it the best move in the game? O.o

EDIT: Also, FSmash is used to punish mistakes and poor spacing in the same way Captain Falcon would use Falcon Punch.

 

[lil cj]

This made me lol. Zamus has a 1 frame Jab. Does that make it the best move in the game? O.o

EDIT: Also, FSmash is used to punish mistakes and poor spacing in the same way Captain Falcon would use Falcon Punch.

I didnt say it was the best
just faster than anything Bowser has
Lucas has one of the best jabs in the game next to Ike and Peach
and it has priority


Edit:I know...its the same for Ike's forward smash
What Im saying is it can be seen a mile away and will rarely hit anybody

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

I really think that Bowser has an advantage over Lucas. Looking from all the facts and statements made by the Bowser mains, and the fact that speed is not really that important, Boswer should have the advantage. All Lucas can really do is space properly, and hope to gimp Bowser properly. He does have an answer to Lucas's ground moves and approaches. Bowser's speed and big size is something to consider, but that doesn't mean Lucas has an easy time with him. Donkey Kong is big, and so is Snake, but look at them. Lucas has a big disadvantage to DK, and Snake is.....Snake.

Bowser has the power, the range, priority, super armor, and infinite jump (one that is actually useful).

Lucas has speed.....that's it when against a Bowser.

Not to turn on Lucas mains, but Bowser does seem to have an easy time with Lucas.

 

[c3gill]

This made me lol. Zamus has a 1 frame Jab. Does that make it the best move in the game? O.o

^there is no point in bringing up other characters, this discussion is Lucas vs Bowser atm. I think that pretty much everything lil cj said is correct. Bowser has some distance and power on his tilts, and his grabs are scary, but thats no reason to give him an advantage.

8. Bowser: 6-4. Offensively speaking, Bowser and Lucas can royally screw eachother over. Lucas can juggle and gimp Bowser, and Bowser and grab release chain grab, or grab release to a strong attack. Thus, the main difference comes from how easily one can avoid the screwing, which Lucas can do easily. Lucas can keep Bowser far away easily with his projectile game, and he can keep Bowser is the air with constant Nairing. Stay away, stay aerial, and stay on the move.

It was right when it was written, and its still right.

 

[B!squick]

I didnt say it was the best
just faster than anything Bowser has

Faster =/= better. Lucas on the ground is not better than Bowser on the ground. His attacks in general have alot more range than Lucas. So he can hit you before you can hit him.

 

[lil cj]

I really think that Bowser has an advantage over Lucas. Looking from all the facts and statements made by the Bowser mains, and the fact that speed is not really that important, Boswer should have the advantage. All Lucas can really do is space properly, and hope to gimp Bowser properly. He does have an answer to Lucas's ground moves and approaches. Bowser's speed and big size is something to consider, but that doesn't mean Lucas has an easy time with him. Donkey Kong is big, and so is Snake, but look at them. Lucas has a big disadvantage to DK, and Snake is.....Snake.

Bowser has the power, the range, priority, super armor, and infinite jump (one that is actually useful).

Lucas has speed.....that's it when against a Bowser.

Not to turn on Lucas mains, but Bowser does seem to have an easy time with Lucas.

Believe me YK
Bowser isnt touching Lucas
If we can shut down DDD we can do the same to Bowser
The DK match up is debatable and may not be 25-75
and Snake is only 40-60
Thats not too bad....the match ups to look out for is MK, Marth, and G&W
Lucas can handle his own with anyone else...if played right

Faster =/= better. Lucas on the ground is not better than Bowser on the ground. His attacks in general have alot more range than Lucas. So he can hit you before you can hit him.

True Bowser has more range
but Lucas doesnt even have to touch Bowser to hit him
We can just space with PK Fire and when we see an opening we'll attack(Nair works wonders)
People always underestimate Lucas' spacing game and PK Fire

 

[ToxiCrow]

Faster =/= better. Lucas on the ground is not better than Bowser on the ground. His attacks in general have alot more range than Lucas. So he can hit you before you can hit him.

theres no reason lucas should be that close to u unless you're gonna get ko'd. even then, downsmash reaches a pretty good distance
proper spacing puts lucas out of boozers reach
its 60-40 lucas.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oo Bowser. never fight him so im just reading along

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

So what we're saying is, Lucas can screw Bowser if he spaces properly and can juggle and gimp efficiently.

BUT if Lucas is close to Bowser, for whatever reason, Bowser can screw Lucas.

Won't it be easier for Lucas to space than for Bowser to get close because of Lucas's projectile game?

 

[ToxiCrow]

YK- we've been saying that the whole time!

 

[c3gill]

So what we're saying is, Lucas can screw Bowser if he spaces properly and can juggle and gimp efficiently.

BUT if Lucas is close to Bowser, for whatever reason, Bowser can screw Lucas.

Won't it be easier for Lucas to space than for Bowser to get close because of Lucas's projectile game?

thats why its Lucas > Bowser 6-4.