Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

Lol, posting a Link on the SWF Link boards is useless, Lucas mains. I'll let the AiB Links know. (there are no SWF Links)

as a Link main who's played a few Lucas' I can say the match up is probably 60:40 your favour. You cangimp us fairly easily, have good priority and and speed on us, plus if you know how to spam it can be a real pain for us to do anythign while you force us to the ledge.

We have to camp you, essentially, and we will set up our tent and go to work during this match. Also, don't bother with PKT2, bombs break it.

Offstage, PKT is a pain, and so are your aerials. Your Fsmash requires speedy DI to survive at decent percents, and you're a small target so zair can be hard to land.

Our advantage is our camping, and that you're light and we have a disjoint. That's it.


@Lil CJ. For Link to achieve even MID tier, he'd need either an AMAZING recovery, or:

a decent recovery, speed boost, and priority increase, aswell as a damage bump. Link. Is. Bad. =[


Also, SP is correct, we don't typicly do nice things on SWF, and have migrated away. Feel free to post a message on the AiB Link boards to get our attention in the future.

 

[LinkSpecialist]

I've played against the likes of ~Pink Fresh~
Scary with Lucas. O.o

 

[Irsic]

decent di says hi, bowser doesn't die till late, especially since he's the heaviest off the side, lucas's fsmash will not ko him early unless he's DI'ing into the blastzone on purpose, but if you want to argue horrible DI like that, then bowsers ftilt kos you at 80-90 and can be comboed out of grabs

I wish I could be there to see your jaw drop when you eat a fresh fsmash from Lucas at 100%. Really, don't underestimate the raw power of this move fresh.

also, if you land on a platform it's only a free fair for us, however, that only applies half the time on battlefield, is very unlikely on sv, and doesn't happen on fd, and even then, you only got a 40% chance to air break.

It's a good thing I'd ban FD against Bowser anyway.

your ftilt is outranged bowsers ftilt, jab, or dtilt, we beat that on the ground
your utilt is very unsafe, and even if it does hit, we can upb out of your little utilt lock, which is fun because it puts you at just the right spot to take 20-30%
your jab has no range, loses to our ftilt, sideb and dtilt, clanks with our jab (which outranges yours by a lot), and on the off occasion it hits does very little damage
you will not get in range to land dtilt

Just because it's outranged doesn't mean we will always be out of range to hit you. Ftilt has IASA frames, which went ignored. It beats your shield, and we'll be able to shield your OoS fortress. It's that fast.

And utilt is so disjointed that if you were to Fortress out of it, I would probably laugh at you. The hitbox extends so far above Lucas, you would just miss completely.

Let me put it this way, on Battlefield, standing above Lucas means a free utilt, it hits well on the platform, doesn't require to be directly under you (especially Bowser) or anything.

bowser has a great ground game, he has better range than almost every character and is a priority monster, lucas has an alright ground game but it does not stack up in comparison to bowsers ridiculousness.

Lucas has an amazing ground game, not an 'alright' ground game. And utilt is so disjointed that if you were to Fortress out of it, I would probably laugh at you. The hitbox extends so far above Lucas, you would just miss completely.

Let me put it this way, on Battlefield, standing above Lucas means a free utilt, it hits well on the platform, doesn't require to be directly under you (especially Bowser) or anything.

 

[MrEh]

As long as the matchup is 55-45, I'm cool with it. The other 5 points aren't worth arguing about.

 

[Swordplay]

Id say more.

Lucas can zair edge guard. VERY useful against Link.

I don't know I think Ness Link is like 60:40 ness. Link does a little better on on the stage Lucas but not by much.


But In this matchup, Lucas ***** Link offstage more than ness.
Lucas can zair edge guard. VERY useful against Link.
Link is VERY bad. zair isn't that good as Lucas is short and can be shielded.
Links projectiles suck and he is easy to approach. Shad rangs and arrows and catch bombs.
Link can't even glide toss it is so sad.
He's not very strong Probably can't kill you till 130 on his best kill moves and Lucas is light.
Only thing Link has going for him is that his attacks do a lot of damage but it doesn't matter that much since he can't really combo.
The list goes on.
Link has 3 strenghts. the damage he can deal per attack, he has decent priority, and being disjointed.

On the other hand, Link has 20 weaknesses.
Slow, poor recovery, no glide toss for bombs, poor projectile game, no hard core combo's, poor moveset, bad air game, lag after grab, laggy moves in general, to falls to fast for weight class, a d-tilt spike that doesn't work, slow ground moves, extremely punishable kill moves, combo'd easily, no true tech chases or chain grabs, ect......

need I go on?

 

[Levitas]

Can someone let the links on AiB know? idk where they are so yeah...

Bigfoot, don't be dumb. Yes there's some validity in saying that faster doesn't necessarily mean better, but AC nair into a shield is actually a decent option if we're not playing against people like marth and bowser. However, when we land it, it combos into stuff.

I've played sliq, though he was only playing ganon at that point. However, you say that like you've played the best lucases out there. Which I have a problem believing.

So please don't start crap in this thread for no reason, especially after I set the numbers to something other than what you seem to think.

 

[_clinton]

Why do people think Lucas is helpless when he is recovering?
I've got no problem playing some fun matches with my Lucas if anyone wants some...

 

[B!squick]

He's willing to put $20 dollars on his opinion, that's something I think. Anyone near itsthebigfoot with $5 on hand?

 

[Bowser King]

I thought we was done with Bowser...
Bowser is not even with Lucas at all

Your only making yourself look ignorant you know.

And Lucas is not the easiest for Bowser to CG

No. It's funny how your saying that when we, the bowser players, have been using the chaingrab since it was found. Lucas is extremely easy to chaingrab. Even a slight mistiming won't do anything and we still will be able to grab.

I would think a heavy weight or fast faller would be
60-40 is right...why r u worried about it??...its still winnable

There not.
If I were to say "65-35 Bowser is right, why are you worried? It's still winnable." would you seriously take that as correct? No. Likewise, 60-40 is no where near correct.

You just gotta work harder to beat us

I like how a lot of your claims are "I have no trouble beating bowsers so it's auto 60-40". We don't have to work harder. Pk fire isn't that good. Falco, snake and rob have FAR better projectiles and the people who main them didn't go " We can use lazers/Grenades/Blaster so it's auto 80-20".

And its not just the PK fire spacing that makes this match up 60-40
Its better aerials, approaches, faster moves, and gimping capablities

Better Aerials= I'll give you this but it's not like it's an extreme difference. Heck, we could use >B and fair anf that would be enough.

Approches= How? We have klaw hopping, fortress approch, and straight out walking in with our shield.

Faster Moves= Sure but bowsers are fast enough. Ftilt, Jabs, Klaw, Fortress all come out fast. That and we more then make up with our range,priority, and kill power.

GC= Bowser can do a lot to you offstage too. Fair, fair out of release, fire (!). Those are all very good at getting one dead lucas.

Plus, invincibilty frames and HUGE priority on fortress will be enough to stop you from gimping us most of the time/almost all the times.

All Bowser has on Lucas is range...but that wont be a problem if we use PK fire effectively

Read above.

And the difference between Lucas' Pk fire and Fox's laser...PK fire is its actually effective and has knockback...Fox's Laser does not.

Were talking about falco, not fox >_>

U shouldnt put Lucas and Fox in the same category...All b/c Bowser does good against Fox doesnt mean he does good against Lucas...two completely different characters with different play styles.

Were talking about falco and how he has a better projectile then you, the thing that you guys are bringing up and using as a supposed counter to everything we say.

Im not sure if the others agree with me or not(back me up Lucas mains)
But when I face a Bowser....I know I will win the match...no problems at all...unless u face us on Luigi's Mansion lol...other than that...we dont fear Bowser...now Marth is a different story

Your ignorant. Very Ignorant. I would love to have vex or sliq face you. Saying that you think you can defeat any bowser player (because you just said if you faced a bowser you know you'd win) shows how much knowledge you lack on what bowser is and how good he can be/is. He's not higher on the tier list for no reason.

Not to be disrespectful Bowser mains
I like Bowser and all...he's a great character
But lets get real here
60-40
Lucas' favor

You presented terrible arguments, used one debating fact over and over and insult all bowser players and then say no hard feelings.

Definitely not 60-40.

I have a feeling it's 55:45.

Bowser doesn't have any options when approaching, so he's best off walking at lucas and shielding.

Again, we can klaw hop, use fortress to approch (cancels right when a projectile touches it), and just use our shield if we want.

All of those 3 work great.

I wish I could be there to see your jaw drop when you eat a fresh fsmash from Lucas at 100%. Really, don't underestimate the raw power of this move fresh.

Bowsers Fsmash>Lucas's fsmash

The drawback of it will get us past it if we space well and then we land a free fsmash. Fsmash is good, you say yours (or some lucas main did) is amazing yet you should never be hit by ours. That's pretty biased.

Even if it's fresh, bowser will always kill faster and easier. You'll be stressing to kill a lot worse when we have so many ways to kill you.

It's a good thing I'd ban FD against Bowser anyway.

We can go smashville. Not only that but there's a lot of other stages we can choose.

Just because it's outranged doesn't mean we will always be out of range to hit you.

What's weird is that the same argument can be used back at you. Just because Pk fire can cause a bit of spacing problems, doesn't mean we won't be landing hits.

And utilt is so disjointed that if you were to Fortress out of it, I would probably laugh at you. The hitbox extends so far above Lucas, you would just miss completely.

Umm...invincibility frames remember? Disjointed isn't going to help you much.

Let me put it this way, on Battlefield, standing above Lucas means a free utilt, it hits well on the platform, doesn't require to be directly under you (especially Bowser) or anything.

Let me put it this way, on Battlefield, standing above bowser means a free utilt, usmash or uair on the top platform, bowser hits VERY well on the platforms, it doesn't even require for bowser to be directly under you because usmash is huge will likely hit you anywhere on the platform.

Moral of the story= Bowser's platform ****>>>>Lucas's platform usage

-Bowser King

 

[MrEh]

No. It's funny how your saying that when we, the bowser players, have been using the chaingrab since it was found. Lucas is extremely easy to chaingrab. Even a slight mistiming won't do anything and we still will be able to grab.

With Lucas being unacceptable to both ground release and jump release chaingrabs, and his large frame disadvantage, it's very easy to chaingrab him, like you said.

I dunno what that person was talking about when he said Lucas wasn't easy to chaingrab. He is very easy. Even easier then Dorf.

U shouldnt put Lucas and Fox in the same category...All b/c Bowser does good against Fox doesnt mean he does good against Lucas...two completely different characters with different play styles.

I was actually the one who brought up Fox, but that was a typo. I meant to say "Falco."

Definitely not 60-40.

It's now listed as 55-45. The other 5 points isn't worth arguing about, so that's why I would just let it be.

Moral of the story= Bowser's platform ****>>>>Lucas's platform usage

Fact.


I think it would be best to just let them continue on to Link. If some of the players here believe the advantage is 60-40, then good for them.

 

[Bowser King]

I was actually the one who brought up Fox, but that was a typo. I meant to say "Falco."

ohhh

It's now listed as 55-45. The other 5 points isn't worth arguing about, so that's why I would just let it be.

Yeah, I guess

I think it would be best to just let them continue on to Link. If some of the players here believe the advantage is 60-40, then good for them.

I just noticed the lucas board were discussing bowser

...but yeah, best let them continue with link.

-Bowser King

 

[lil cj]

To Bowser King & Bigfoot
Im not even going to entertain all your quotes
But Im not ignorant...I just know my character and what he is capable of
And it looks like you know yours too
I have Bowser experience...seen Gimpyfish and some of your other good Bowser players on youtube so I know what Bowser can do
You should check out some of the Lucas players
So you can learn something too
B/c it seems like your just underestimating Lucas b/c of his tier placement and his flaws
You guys know nothing about him and what he is capable of
I was clearly stating the only threats to Lucas that is almost impossible for him to beat
is The Deadly 4 (G&W, Marth, DK, and MK)Even with them we are finding ways to win the match up.
No one else has a huge advantage over Lucas
...Bowser is not one of those 4

 

[sasook]

lol...true
but Izaw's Link is amazing though
he ***** this MK in this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0mL80jK8Pk&feature=channel_page
Best Link in the world

Either that MK was not that good, or that Link is just too good!

1) That's Rebaz, the best Captain Falcon in the world....he doesn't even play MK. He has no clue how to use him.

2) Izaw is the most popular Link in the world, but he's not the best. He's certainly up there, but at the moment the best is Deva. And you're forgetting Legan, who's beaten Overswarm in a MM before 2-0 and ArkiveZero, who managed to not get totally destroyed by Domo's MK.

I think these vids will help figure out the Link and Lucas match up
Its Izaw vs Serpit
Great matches
The best Link vs one of the best Lucas'

match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj9Dbzb3_JY&feature=related
match 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmTWTsVKk64&feature=related
match 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzZ7mAmlhGQ&feature=related
match 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9FD07i0Wm4&feature=related
match 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6NhdYmbJfI&feature=related

I'll get the Link mains

Again, like I stated above. Plus, these matches are really old.

just one match vs the only Link main i've played
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTTAGBD6xwM

Off topic, but no offense, he wasn't really that good lol.

link is really good on stage, his jabs are good

Agreed.

and his zair works, with 2 hits!

Not on Lucas as much as other characters it won't. You're too short lol

he has a good set up for a jab lock, with his boomerang and arrows, tech everytime he hits you with the boomerang

Yeah, he's got more setups than this, but this is the main one. 100% correct

i think all his aerials autocancel, not sure

Lol, how much we would LOVE that. No, nair, bair, zair all autocancel always. Uair can be autocanceled, but if not done properly, it has landing lag. And dair.....that's self explanatory.

if he wants to, he can be really annoying with his projectiles

We usually will be =P

his priority is not really good, except for his uair, don't try to intercept his dair with and uair

I dunno how much priority Lucas has, but keep in mind that Link is disjointed.

ummm my opinions- Link is fun to play. he has a good projectile game, some decent approaches, and 2 effective swings on his F-Smash.

Link has no approach.

Link is heavy, his approaches are very punishable, and he is more susceptible to aerials than a lot of characters. However, I think he also has a decent punishing game, has the advantage with both characters in the air(over the stage), and has enough power to kill Lucas with fresh moves at somewhat low percentages.

I agree with all this, but I'm iffy about air control. Link's aerials aren't amazing, I'm pretty sure you guys would win in the air.

Id say more.

Lucas can zair edge guard. VERY useful against Link.

I don't know I think Ness Link is like 60:40 ness. Link does a little better on on the stage Lucas but not by much.


But In this matchup, Lucas ***** Link offstage more than ness.
Lucas can zair edge guard. VERY useful against Link.
Link is VERY bad. zair isn't that good as Lucas is short and can be shielded.
Links projectiles suck and he is easy to approach. Shad rangs and arrows and catch bombs.
Link can't even glide toss it is so sad.
He's not very strong Probably can't kill you till 130 on his best kill moves and Lucas is light.
Only thing Link has going for him is that his attacks do a lot of damage but it doesn't matter that much since he can't really combo.
The list goes on.
Link has 3 strenghts. the damage he can deal per attack, he has decent priority, and being disjointed.

On the other hand, Link has 20 weaknesses.
Slow, poor recovery, no glide toss for bombs, poor projectile game, no hard core combo's, poor moveset, bad air game, lag after grab, laggy moves in general, to falls to fast for weight class, a d-tilt spike that doesn't work, slow ground moves, extremely punishable kill moves, combo'd easily, no true tech chases or chain grabs, ect......

need I go on?

Someone's in a happy mood >_>

And Link can slide, SP. Just because he can't glide toss doesn't mean no sliding. Just because YOU can't incorporate it into your game doesn't mean it's useless.

 

[iRjOn]

I dont even main Bowser but I use to use Lucas alot. I just picked up Bowser.
I have read every post.
And from knowing both sides.
I know its not 60:40 Lucas.
It is more like 55:45 Lucas.
Everything seems to be settled I dont want to start'em back up.
So just posting from both sides experience.
I'll post pros and cons
:D

Lucas pros:
-Faster
-can combo Bowser
-Somewhat early kills on Bowser (ehh why not use usmash?)
-spiking Bowser isn't that difficult
Cons
-lightwieght=dieing early
-can be CG REALLY easily and it cant be escaped. Unless a mistake is made by Bowser.
-Few safe moves other than PK and such against Bowser.
-out prioritized where it really counts.
-Camping isn't as effective in a matchup of equal skill as implied.

 

[FireKirby7]

Lucas is not light..... He is middleweight. I can often live to 150% with him.

In fact, the creator of this topic, in huge red letters, should put:
"LUCAS =/= LIGHTWEIGHT"
I'm getting tired of people saying that he's lightweight.

 

[lil cj]

1) That's Rebaz, the best Captain Falcon in the world....he doesn't even play MK. He has no clue how to use him.

2) Izaw is the most popular Link in the world, but he's not the best. He's certainly up there, but at the moment the best is Deva. And you're forgetting Legan, who's beaten Overswarm in a MM before 2-0 and ArkiveZero, who managed to not get totally destroyed by Domo's MK.

Oh yea...I forgot about Deva lol
My bad...thats the Link pro I was tryna find when I looking for Link vids
Ive seen some of his vids a while back...he makes Link look top tier for sure

Yea...Link is a great character
Just his recovery holds him back
I would imagine the Link would always have to play defensive,shield/spot dodge alot, and avoid getting hit off stage at all cost
Cause as long as Link is on stage he 's a beast
And from what Ive seen it takes alot of skill to play Link
Im not sure about the match up though between Lucas and Link
Ive played a few good ones and lost badly and Ive played sucky/average ones and won easily
Maybe its even?

 

[sasook]

I'm gonna have to go with 6:4 your way, to be honest. Your edgeguarding on us is too strong.

 

[iRjOn]

Lucas is not light..... He is middleweight. I can often live to 150% with him.

In fact, the creator of this topic, in huge red letters, should put:
"LUCAS =/= LIGHTWEIGHT"
I'm getting tired of people saying that he's lightweight.

If Toon Link is light weight Lucas is light weight too.

EDIT: it doesn't matter M2K lives till like 160% with MK your point is?

 

[lil cj]

If Toon Link is light weight Lucas is light weight too.

I know it may not seem like it but Lucas is heavier than you think he would be
I think its his head lol
But yea he is considered middleweight
and he is heavier than Toon Link
Lucas is probably a little heavier than Olimar
Lucas can survive at a very high percentage

 

[iRjOn]

lol at the head thing.
Ok just cause a character survives till 150% or so doesn't mean they are mid weight.
Show the weight list that says Lucas is heavier than Toon Link.

Rethink what you just stated Olimar is lighter than Toon Link hes seriously light weight.

 

[lil cj]

lol at the head thing.
Ok just cause a character survives till 150% or so doesn't mean they are mid weight.
Show the weight list that says Lucas is heavier than Toon Link.

Rethink what you just stated Olimar is lighter than Toon Link hes seriously light weight.

lol...my bad...I thought Oli was mid weight
Heres an accurate weight list
Lucas is a little bit heavier than TL and between those two is when the weight class changes from light to mid
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/wii/qna/928518.html?qid=26299

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

lol...my bad...I thought Oli was mid weight
Heres an accurate weight list
Lucas is a little bit heavier than TL and between those two is when the weight class changes from light to mid
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/wii/qna/928518.html?qid=26299

woooooow, Marth < Peach and Falco = Olimar.......so weird......

 

[B!squick]

It's a good thing I have this page bookmarked for weight and other discussions: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908

EDIT: Also, I wouldn't trust something from GFAQs from Wiki. Nothing against Smash Wiki, I just find the Smash World Forums to be a more credable source.

 

[iRjOn]

Ok I see what ya mean Cj.
But Sonic if you didn't know is the base of mid wieght Diddy has been changed to light. Then Pit is light.
But Pit, Ness, Lucas, Toon Link, and Diddy all die around the same % any way.
But I understand you now.
:D
EDIT:
Hmmm... maybe my point is valid
:O

 

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

.. One thing I want to highlight, CJ keeps saying Link's a beast/great character on stage.. <.< There is much more wrong with Link than his recovery, it's just his most glaring problem, lol.

Sasook is right in his entire analysis, as is SP.

But yeah, if we land a dair, Lucas can seem alot lighter, haha.

60:40 your favour, maybe 65:35... a good Lucas can be a nightmare to us off stage, and you don't have a hard time putting us there.

Every Link has built in BTDI though, so don't count on low% KO's with Fsmash. o:

[BrokenTierDI.] ..Srsly had a Falco come into Link chat for DI advice yesterday. I didn' know Falcoes knew we HAD a chat.

 

[ToxiCrow]

It's a good thing I have this page bookmarked for weight and other discussions: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908

EDIT: Also, I wouldn't trust something from GFAQs from Wiki. Nothing against Smash Wiki, I just find the Smash World Forums to be a more credable source.

i always thought SWF ran smash wiki?

 

[B!squick]

i always thought SWF ran smash wiki?

Well, something isn't adding up then because both lists are different. :O

 

[Chuee]

60-40 simply because if link gets hit offstage hes dead.

 

[Bowser King]

I dont even main Bowser but I use to use Lucas alot. I just picked up Bowser.
I have read every post.
And from knowing both sides.
I know its not 60:40 Lucas.
It is more like 55:45 Lucas.
Everything seems to be settled I dont want to start'em back up.
So just posting from both sides experience.
I'll post pros and cons
:D

Lucas pros:
-Faster
-can combo Bowser
-Somewhat early kills on Bowser (ehh why not use usmash?)
-spiking Bowser isn't that difficult
Cons
-lightwieght=dieing early
-can be CG REALLY easily and it cant be escaped. Unless a mistake is made by Bowser.
-Few safe moves other than PK and such against Bowser.
-out prioritized where it really counts.
-Camping isn't as effective in a matchup of equal skill as implied.

Bold isn't true and lucas's smashes (other then fsmash and that itself isn't very fast) so early kill are possible but you shouldn't be falling for it a lot.

..but we should let them discuss link now

Lucas is not light..... He is middleweight. I can often live to 150% with him.

In fact, the creator of this topic, in huge red letters, should put:
"LUCAS =/= LIGHTWEIGHT"
I'm getting tired of people saying that he's lightweight.

If I were you, I wouldn't go by that. I can often live to 200% with bowser but I don't count those because that's not what the real average is (160-180%)

That or refer to the link deth gave.


-Bowser King

 

[iRjOn]

Oh ok Boswer King
:D
But yea techniqually Lucas is light weight.

 

[Irsic]

If Lucas is lightweight then I have some sick *** DI.

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

Can't we all just agree on Mid-light so we can get back to Link?

 

[Irsic]

I liked it when I had sick *** DI, though.

 

[MrEh]

I have Bowser experience...seen Gimpyfish and some of your other good Bowser players on youtube so I know what Bowser can do

Gimpyfish doesn't even play Brawl. Don't judge Bowser's ability by watching Gimpyfish, when you could be watching Sliq or Vex.

Melee Bowser is another story though. Gimpy has that in spades.

Lucas is not light..... He is middleweight. I can often live to 150% with him.

Isn't Lucas heavier then Pit? XD

It is more like 55:45 Lucas.

This.

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

Isn't Lucas heavier then Pit? XD

Pit, Lucas, and Ness are all the same weight.

 

[B!squick]

They all die just the same to a Gimpyfish combo though!

... Wait, isn't this a match up thread? o_o 60 Lucas/40 Link.

 

[iRjOn]

If Lucas is lightweight then I have some sick *** DI.

Congratz
:D
I have sick DI too I be surviving till like 160-170 ish % but not against Boswer cause really wieght doesn't matter against him he still kills early.
:]
But on ward to Link!
ehh i'll say 60:40 Lucas.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

We did link before, right?
I remember tyr flaming everyone, then we moved on to ROB; i think.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So in other words, business as usual? <_<

I have nothing to contribute.

 

[_clinton]

So...who do you think we should redo?