Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[Yoshi-Kirby]

YK- we've been saying that the whole time!

Sorry, I'm just so slow! =[

 

[B!squick]

^there is no point in bringing up other characters, this discussion is Lucas vs Bowser atm. I think that pretty much everything lil cj said is correct. Bowser has some distance and power on his tilts, and his grabs are scary, but thats no reason to give him an advantage.

Hey, someone else brought in a Ness on Bowser vid, no fair! :O

Say what you will. Bowser has 2 different grabs, range, power, likes to hide in his shield and bait attacks, and overall sucky aerials. Lucas has _fill_in_the_blank_. Feel free to draw your own conclusions. 60/40 either way doesn't make much of difference. Virtually all of Bowser match ups are 60/40. No biggie.

 

[ToxiCrow]

ok we've come to an agreement! yes!
now lets do the enxt character. how about vs lucas? i hav no idea how to fight him (with lucas that is)

 

[lil cj]

Finally we come to an agreement

Edit: Lucas vs Lucas 100-0
Whoever is the better Lucas
and knows the best time to stay on the ground and when to go in the air.
Pretty much its like fighting Ness....a weaker/faster version with weaker aerials/grab game

 

[B!squick]

I never claimed Bowser to have an advantage, I just wanted you to be aware of what he can do. The Ike board has the right idea. They don't care about match up numbers, they just want to know what to look out for and how they can beat it.

 

[lil cj]

I never claimed Bowser to have an advantage, I just wanted you to be aware of what he can do. The Ike board has the right idea. They don't care about match up numbers, they just want to know what to look out for and how they can beat it.

No hard feelings
Its just that with Lucas...with most of his match ups he has a disadvantage
it just gets discouraging sometimes to see so many bad match ups and not knowing why

 

[Levitas]

I think the biggest problem that bowser has on lucas is that lucas can force bowser to approach efficiently.

Dair is the aerial of choice due to moves like fortress. Don't rely on tilts or fsmash for normal frame/spacing traps, as that will get you killed.

lucas needs to really earn this win because bowser's moves kill you faster if they land.

And now the thread is mine! muahahahaha!

 

[MrEh]

thats why its Lucas > Bowser 6-4.

Wrong.

Should be 55-45 or even. ^^

Bowser isnt touching Lucas
If we can shut down DDD we can do the same to Bowser

Bowser is not the same as Dedede. Not at all.

 

[Chuee]

ok next peoples. Who havent we discussed yet?

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

How about either Link or Falco cuz I don't see how those matchups are even...

 

[Levitas]

we're done with bowser?

 

[Chuee]

Falco
10thataintfalcos

 

[MrEh]

we're done with bowser?

I don't think so. 60-40 isn't right.

 

[Levitas]

Ok, in what direction is it not right?

 

[MrEh]

Too large of an advantage. The entire discussion has pretty much been "PK Fire forces Bowser to approach." Therefore, 60-40. Fox's laser does the same thing, but Bowser actually puts up a decent fight against Fox.


Bowser outranges Lucas and hits like a truck. No way Lucas has a 60-40 advantage. Also, Bowser has chaingrabs that can easily deal 40% or more. Lucas is the easiest character in the game for Bowser to chaingrab.

 

[lil cj]

Wrong.

Should be 55-45 or even. ^^

Too large of an advantage. The entire discussion has pretty much been "PK Fire forces Bowser to approach." Therefore, 60-40. Fox's laser does the same thing, but Bowser actually puts up a decent fight against Fox.


Bowser outranges Lucas and hits like a truck. No way Lucas has a 60-40 advantage. Also, Bowser has chaingrabs that can easily deal 40% or more. Lucas is the easiest character in the game for Bowser to chaingrab.

I thought we was done with Bowser...
Bowser is not even with Lucas at all
And Lucas is not the easiest for Bowser to CG
I would think a heavy weight or fast faller would be
60-40 is right...why r u worried about it??...its still winnable
You just gotta work harder to beat us
And its not just the PK fire spacing that makes this match up 60-40
Its better aerials, approaches, faster moves, and gimping capablities
All Bowser has on Lucas is range...but that wont be a problem if we use PK fire effectively
And the difference between Lucas' Pk fire and Fox's laser...PK fire is its actually effective and has knockback...Fox's Laser does not. U shouldnt put Lucas and Fox in the same category...All b/c Bowser does good against Fox doesnt mean he does good against Lucas...two completely different characters with different play styles.
Im not sure if the others agree with me or not(back me up Lucas mains)
But when I face a Bowser....I know I will win the match...no problems at all...unless u face us on Luigi's Mansion lol...other than that...we dont fear Bowser...now Marth is a different story
Not to be disrespectful Bowser mains
I like Bowser and all...he's a great character
But lets get real here
60-40
Lucas' favor

 

[B!squick]

Too large of an advantage. The entire discussion has pretty much been "PK Fire forces Bowser to approach." Therefore, 60-40. Fox's laser does the same thing, but Bowser actually puts up a decent fight against Fox.


Bowser outranges Lucas and hits like a truck. No way Lucas has a 60-40 advantage. Also, Bowser has chaingrabs that can easily deal 40% or more. Lucas is the easiest character in the game for Bowser to chaingrab.

And they can trip into a FSmash. XD Can't forget about that... geez, what was Nintendo smoking when they added that. x_x I have to back up MrEh on this. Forcing Bowser to approach isn't anything new and I find PK Fire to be one of the easiest projectiles to shield or AD.

Also, did I mention the lagless jumping before? It's fun to do if anything.

 

[B!squick]

And Lucas is not the easiest for Bowser to CG
I would think a heavy weight or fast faller would be

We have a thread for this, check it out: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193617

EDIT: And from experience and what everyone else tells me, Lucas is the easiest to regrab. But let's continue down the list.

Its better aerials, approaches, faster moves, and gimping capablities

Aerials, yeah; approaches... if you want to approach, go ahead, lol, I wont stop ya; faster moves, yep; gimping, maybe. Here's where I ask, and? A big shield, a butt load of things to do OoS and big meaty turtle hands take care of the ground.

All Bowser has on Lucas is range...but that wont be a problem if we use PK fire effectively

Spam PK Fire? I guess that could work. >.>

But when I face a Bowser....I know I will win the match...no problems at all...unless u face us on Luigi's Mansion lol...other than that...we dont fear Bowser...

Wait for it...

Funny...baseless claim...

And the tables have been turned!

But mostly though, your option of the Lucas chain grab is quite flawed... no disrepect.

 

[Levitas]

I have a feeling it's 55:45.

Bowser doesn't have any options when approaching, so he's best off walking at lucas and shielding.

Lucas is most vulnerable when he's forced to cross up bowser, and bowser's movement speed is greater (though he shouldn't dash)

Nair isn't particularly good. Lucas should only use it to punish missed grabs and fsmashes and AC into something. Dair is better, but still not great.

If you bstick sometimes, this is a matchup to use it in.

Lucas needs more hits, but bowser has a harder time getting hits in.

 

[c3gill]

Too large of an advantage. The entire discussion has pretty much been "PK Fire forces Bowser to approach." Therefore, 60-40. Fox's laser does the same thing, but Bowser actually puts up a decent fight against Fox.


Bowser outranges Lucas and hits like a truck. No way Lucas has a 60-40 advantage. Also, Bowser has chaingrabs that can easily deal 40% or more. Lucas is the easiest character in the game for Bowser to chaingrab.

Your using incorrect logic, again. Just because one character suffers from a crappy laser doesnt mean you can relate that character to another character with camping abilities. Fox Laser doesnt have knockback. It doesnt explode on contact either. Quit trying to make comparisons to characters that you might do better against- faulty logic doesnt make it true. I could use your amazing logic skillz and say that DDD can chaingrab us too, but because we have an advantage over him, we must have an advantage over Bowser. That doesnt make it right.

Bowser might outrange Lucas, and hit like a truck- but that doesnt mean the advantage isnt 60-40, nor does your ability to chaingrab us. Lucas forces you to approach, and can easily punish any mistake in that approach. We also have a great Dair that you will learn to fear, no to mention our other aerials. More than anything is our ability to gimp you offstage and our ability to punish imperfect approaches. I wont say its definatly 60-40, but I will say Lucas has an advantage over Bowser.

 

[lil cj]

We have a thread for this, check it out: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193617

Interesting
I didnt know Bowser had a grab release on all those characters

Your using incorrect logic, again. Just because one character suffers from a crappy laser doesnt mean you can relate that character to another character with camping abilities. Fox Laser doesnt have knockback. It doesnt explode on contact either. Quit trying to make comparisons to characters that you might do better against- faulty logic doesnt make it true. I could use your amazing logic skillz and say that DDD can chaingrab us too, but because we have an advantage over him, we must have an advantage over Bowser. That doesnt make it right.

Bowser might outrange Lucas, and hit like a truck- but that doesnt mean the advantage isnt 60-40, nor does your ability to chaingrab us. Lucas forces you to approach, and can easily punish any mistake in that approach. We also have a great Dair that you will learn to fear, no to mention our other aerials. More than anything is our ability to gimp you offstage and our ability to punish imperfect approaches. I wont say its definatly 60-40, but I will say Lucas has an advantage over Bowser.

He speaks the truth

 

[ToxiCrow]

ok how about we do link next? theres no way it's even

 

[lil cj]

Yea lets do Link next
He's an interesting character
if it wasnt for his terrible recovery
he would be a great character
possibly top tier

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

Link and Top Tier can never exist on this planet.....

 

[Levitas]

link it is.

 

[ToxiCrow]

cj......no. not ever.
great character? no.
good character? maybe.
top tier? never

 

[lil cj]

Link and Top Tier can never exist on this planet.....

cj......no. not ever.
great character? no.
good character? maybe.
top tier? never

lol...true
but Izaw's Link is amazing though
he ***** this MK in this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0mL80jK8Pk&feature=channel_page
Best Link in the world

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

lol...true
but Izaw's Link is amazing though
he ***** this MK in this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0mL80jK8Pk&feature=channel_page
Best Link in the world

Either that MK was not that good, or that Link is just too good!

 

[lil cj]

I think these vids will help figure out the Link and Lucas match up
Its Izaw vs Serpit
Great matches
The best Link vs one of the best Lucas'

match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj9Dbzb3_JY&feature=related
match 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmTWTsVKk64&feature=related
match 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzZ7mAmlhGQ&feature=related
match 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9FD07i0Wm4&feature=related
match 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6NhdYmbJfI&feature=related

I'll get the Link mains

 

[prOAPC]

just one match vs the only Link main i've played
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTTAGBD6xwM
there are some more
link is really good on stage, his jabs are good and his zair works, with 2 hits!
he has a good set up for a jab lock, with his boomerang and arrows, tech everytime he hits you with the boomerang
i think all his aerials autocancel, not sure
if he wants to, he can be really annoying with his projectiles
his priority is not really good, except for his uair, don't try to intercept his dair with and uair
55-45 lucas wins
EDIT: yeah, Izaw is really good, those matches vs Serpit say a lot of this match up, but they are kind of old, also Serpit quit brawl

 

[Tyr_03]

Not that impressed with Izaw. Not that impressed with Serpit. Not impressed at all by competition outside of USA and Canada (sorry ProAPC.)

 

[prOAPC]

i'll have nightmares tonight T_T

 

[ToxiCrow]

dont worry about tyr
we still love you apc

 

[prOAPC]

i love you too <3

 

[Levitas]

yeah, I love you guys to, but I haven't seen anything related to Link in the did I just hear you say that, scotu?

More on track, link needs to get offstage before he starts losing. So hit him offstage or something.

 

[ToxiCrow]

uhh now i feel uncomfortable. i dont like when people say it back lol jp
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
projectiles- they arent much better than ours. his boomerang doesnt do any damage when it goes back to link. and i think our fair may cancel it out.
his bombs are ok but i'm not too worried about them. they're easy to avoid.
his zair is good because of the little lag it has and it's length. does PKF outrange it?

we,including the link mains, can all agree that his recovery is trash. like the red moon above me said, get him offstage and he'll start losing.
heavy+bad recovery=terrible offstage game.
PKT. you could even jump off and go after him

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Ok, lets try this, everyone who has actually played the lucas vs bowser matchup between competent opponents can talk.

so everyone i'm about to quote, play a bowser before talking

You can't just ignore frame data. 0 frame advantage is 0 frame advantage. The facts show Lucas can shield Up B out of shield after nair.

all characters have 3-6 frames of landing lag no matter what, even if they don't land with an attack, this is why you don't air dodge before landing, also, upb works more like a dragon punch, in that we do it straight out of shield during your attack because it outprioritizes what you do (invincibility wins, no way around it)

Not to be mean but Bowser is no threat to us Lucas mains
I dont see how Bowser > Lucas on the ground when Lucas is clearly faster his jab and ftilt is faster than anything Bowser has
Bowser's fsmash is easily avoided btw
Lucas>Bowser in the air is true...nair has no landing lag, we can do a retreating fair to avoid a shield grab, and dair is hard to punish
And one more thing Bowser is a huge target...so expect bair spikes and PK Freeze/PKT gimps
Nothin against Bowser mains but he has nothing on Lucas and doesnt have a better ground game
60-40
In Lucas' favor

going off your logic anyone with a 1 frame jab would have the best ground game out there, which isn't true because range and priority come into play, bowser outranges you completely, your ground moves are faster than no more than 3 frames, 1/20th of a second, bowser can start attacking you much earlier because it takes much more than 3 frames to get into range for your jab. the only time that 2 frame jab would be significant is if for some reason you were both in a neutral state right next to each other, and for some ******** reason bowser decides not to just upb and go through whatever you do. your nair is still unsafe because if it overlaps our shield it will be upb'd before the attack finishes.

also, bowsers upb is invincible at the start, so expect all those gimp attempts to backfire. but that is a moot point, any bowser worth playing bowser should just di properly and downb the ledge to avoid gimps, and don't come back with the stereotypical "dur we'll just grab the ledge" because bowser players are usually functioning human beings that can tell when to just float down safely while you're at the ledge

speaking of gimps, for all your fancy recovery tricks, you're still pretty helpless returning, i've gimped lucas more times than i've been gimped

I didnt say it was the best
just faster than anything Bowser has
Lucas has one of the best jabs in the game next to Ike and Peach
and it has priority


Edit:I know...its the same for Ike's forward smash
What Im saying is it can be seen a mile away and will rarely hit anybody

bowsers jab is much better than lucas and peach, it's up there with ike just due to how retardedly good it is, it outranges your ftilt, sets up gimps and combos straight into sideb after the first hit for a 24% combo.

also, ground normal priority is based off damage, lucas's jab does 3%, bowsers does 5 and has over twice your range

^there is no point in bringing up other characters, this discussion is Lucas vs Bowser atm. I think that pretty much everything lil cj said is correct. Bowser has some distance and power on his tilts, and his grabs are scary, but thats no reason to give him an advantage.



It was right when it was written, and its still right.

bowser beating you on the ground and having a cg to ko moves that can be done at any % doesn't do it? how about about outprioritizing you in the air? still no? maybe if we add in the large difference in stocks due to weight and ko power differences and the fact that we can guarantee ko moves against you? that do it? the only thing you have an advantage in is the fact that you force us to approach, which isn't much of an advantage because lucas is not good at camping.

Believe me YK
Bowser isnt touching Lucas
If we can shut down DDD we can do the same to Bowser
The DK match up is debatable and may not be 25-75
and Snake is only 40-60
Thats not too bad....the match ups to look out for is MK, Marth, and G&W
Lucas can handle his own with anyone else...if played right

bowser is not ddd, snake or dk

also, where is this magically move that suddenly makes your character a good camper? because lucas is one of the easiest people to approach atm, his projectile (the only thing forcing us to approach) has almost no range and is quite laggy, and he doesn't have a crazy AA/ground game like snake, so what is this magical thing that somehow prevents us from getting in?

also, the dk infinite has been proven, if the matchup were to change it would only be for the worse (for you guys, great for us, 90-10 yeah-yuz).

just because a character is big does not mean he has a disadvantage against lucas

True Bowser has more range
but Lucas doesnt even have to touch Bowser to hit him
We can just space with PK Fire and when we see an opening we'll attack(Nair works wonders)
People always underestimate Lucas' spacing game and PK Fire

know, we just know that his pk fire is easy to powershield and he has very little camp game afterwards, go ahead and nair, we'll upb you oos every time.

theres no reason lucas should be that close to u unless you're gonna get ko'd. even then, downsmash reaches a pretty good distance
proper spacing puts lucas out of boozers reach
its 60-40 lucas.

lucas doesn't have any long range moves, he'd have to be close just to pk fire, and your dsmash is outranged by everything bowser has except dsmash (technically stuff like utilt, usmash and upb, but they won't use that for spacing, those are punishers). if you want to be ******** in saying that a slow poke can camp an entire character then i'd like to point out that bowsers firebreath has more range than you pk fire.

I thought we was done with Bowser...
Bowser is not even with Lucas at all
And Lucas is not the easiest for Bowser to CG
I would think a heavy weight or fast faller would be
60-40 is right...why r u worried about it??...its still winnable
You just gotta work harder to beat us

just because you finish typing incorrect points does not mean th discussion is over.
lucas is not the easiest to cg, he's the 3rd easiest
most heavyweights are good characters, dk, snake, rob, ddd, wario, so is bowser, just saying "he's a heavyweight we have an edge lolz" proves nothing, heavyweight is actually a good thing in brawl, it means we live longer than you and ko much earlier
why are you denying that we have the edge?

And its not just the PK fire spacing that makes this match up 60-40
Its better aerials, approaches, faster moves, and gimping capablities
All Bowser has on Lucas is range...but that wont be a problem if we use PK fire effectively
And the difference between Lucas' Pk fire and Fox's laser...PK fire is its actually effective and has knockback...Fox's Laser does not. U shouldnt put Lucas and Fox in the same category...All b/c Bowser does good against Fox doesnt mean he does good against Lucas...two completely different characters with different play styles.

its not the pk fire spacing that does it because it does not have that much of an effect on the matchup
we have better aerials, approaches (sideb has less landing lag then a landing with no attack). also, when did you suddenly get the edge in gimping? one bowser bair off the edge and you die, you have to spray and pray bairs to gimp, ours is quicker and does not need to be sweetspotted. now, you have your recovery tricks, and we have dowbing the ledge, so gimps are kinda moot anyway.

also, it's pretty funny that you gave the whole "we aren't that other character" speech, because you've compared us to ddd repeatedly, bowser is not ddd, bowser is much better at approaching than ddd, and bowser can ko you out of cg, which ddd can't, the heavyweights that you have a stigma against are different.

Im not sure if the others agree with me or not(back me up Lucas mains)
But when I face a Bowser....I know I will win the match...no problems at all...unless u face us on Luigi's Mansion lol...other than that...we dont fear Bowser...now Marth is a different story
Not to be disrespectful Bowser mains
I like Bowser and all...he's a great character
But lets get real here
60-40
Lucas' favor

name one decent bowser main you've beaten in a tournament, or even a mm, sliq? vex k? bladewise?

because you seem full of yourself, here's what i'll do, to any of you lucas's who doubt me in the southern california area, I will money match you. my bowser against your lucas, neutrals and semi-neutrals only (sv, bf, fd, yoshis, lylat, pokemon stadium 1, maybe 1-2 others i'm forgetting) I'll even give you 4/1 odds, so i'll put in 20 bucks, you only need to put in 5. anyone socal lucas except oats (cause oats is awesome and not arguing me). any takers?

Your using incorrect logic, again. Just because one character suffers from a crappy laser doesnt mean you can relate that character to another character with camping abilities. Fox Laser doesnt have knockback. It doesnt explode on contact either. Quit trying to make comparisons to characters that you might do better against- faulty logic doesnt make it true. I could use your amazing logic skillz and say that DDD can chaingrab us too, but because we have an advantage over him, we must have an advantage over Bowser. That doesnt make it right.

Bowser might outrange Lucas, and hit like a truck- but that doesnt mean the advantage isnt 60-40, nor does your ability to chaingrab us. Lucas forces you to approach, and can easily punish any mistake in that approach. We also have a great Dair that you will learn to fear, no to mention our other aerials. More than anything is our ability to gimp you offstage and our ability to punish imperfect approaches. I wont say its definatly 60-40, but I will say Lucas has an advantage over Bowser.

again, lol "we're different characters" "we camp ddd, bowser is no different" foxes laser is more troublesome, it has more range and is harder to shield and harder to punish.

bowser out prioritizes you in the air, to the point where all you have is that dair, and we can punish anything that is unsafe, and even some otherwise safe things, bowser is one of the best punishers in the game. we have a weight, power, priority and range advantage, not to mention a cg into ko moves

bowser has a distinct advantage.

anyone interested in the mm send me a message and i'll see what tournament we'll both be going to

EDIT: and if i seem pissed it's because i'm really tired of character boards assuming they have an edge on heavyweights like dk and bowser for no reason other than "lols i suck with heavies". lucas is at a disadvantage, speed is not as important as range and priority in this game, even mk has to rely on his range and hax priority. get over the **** noob heavyweight stigma, they're good in this game, just because you can beat bad people online and maybe the comp version or your little brother in the matchup does not give you the edge.

 

[B!squick]

Bowser has priority in the air in this? ****. I've never actually played a Lucas worth mentioning to know if this is true myself... I assume you're talking from personal experience itthebigfoot? Lol, I forgot that Firebreath beats out PK Fire, I have noticed that.

 

[c3gill]

ummm my opinions- Link is fun to play. he has a good projectile game, some decent approaches, and 2 effective swings on his F-Smash.

up close Link has range on Lucas, and generally outpowers him- but Lucas can space into comfort with PKF. his zair is annoying when it pokes you.

honestly this is a match-up I dont know very well- but I would assume that Lucas has a decent advantage over Link. Link is heavy, his approaches are very punishable, and he is more susceptible to aerials than a lot of characters. However, I think he also has a decent punishing game, has the advantage with both characters in the air(over the stage), and has enough power to kill Lucas with fresh moves at somewhat low percentages.

Like I said I am used to playing as Link as he used to be my main 2nd, but the Lucas match-up is one I dont know very well, so feel free to correct me.

 

[Swordplay]

If mods haven't ****ed us over, If we actually had a mod to represent our community, Link mains might actually participate in SWF discussion threads and they might actually check the Link boards and see your post (but they don't. Only to post gay **** to vandalize SWF for disenfranchising them).

We moved to AIB due to tyranny and we'll discuss lucas soon. (probably REALLY soon. Probably next. We just finished DK so if not ROB its Lucas)

O and Zelda is better than Link. She can take care of herself. She has a better chance escaping than relying on Link. (cream of the crap characters)