Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[prOAPC]

you don't know what are you talking about
yes, roy can wavedash, he can z/l-cancel, BUT he has melee hitstun! he can be combo'd! he can use airdodge only once, and after he use it, he is vulnerable, also, he recovery sux, he falls way too fast, and can't sweetspot the edge, sorry, but i don't know where this "0-death" thing came from

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

his hits put you in ssb64 hitstun and shieldstun.
game.

 

[ToxiCrow]

pink- roy is from melee?????
and lucas' grab release/regrab owns roy.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

i know.
just making him overpowered.
anyway, on-topic guys. don't want to get spam infractions. olimar is... not that hard for me.
-sigh- call for the olimars...

 

[Irsic]

I think he's pretty tough, but he's not impossible.


Just take him to Frigate Orph.

 

[c3gill]

Olimar is pretty tough. A good olimar can space well with pikmin, negate PK fire (red), and grab you a lot. He will Whisle, because it comes with SA and orders Pikmin- His WAC helps him against multi-hit attacks (Dair, Nair). Olimar can also get up from ledges without lag.

I think its a fairly decent matchup, but Olimar has a GREAT grab range, infinate projectiles(with health!) at his disposal, and generally a good all around game. I would guess its something like 60-40 in Olimars favor. but hey, then again, I could just be crazy.


oh, and he has a huge..... Pikmin?

 

[Levitas]

You must not chase olimar around when he wants you to.
You must chase olimar around whe he does not want you to.

You must always edeguard olimar efficiently.
You must always recover efficiently against olimar.

This matchup is all about being able to read the state of the game and optimize your play.

 

[vato_break]

lucas has strong smashes and stuff

 

[hippiedude92]

I see this fight... as a pivot grab war... Though olimar might win the pivot grab war...

 

[Chris is me]

I think Mario is a pretty solid matchup in Lucas's favor, though Mario has really annoying tricks in the cape and FLUDD (though honestly the FLUDD is so hard to aim). Those mess up PK Thunder recoveries, but you can counteract them by just shooting at the ledge and using your Thunder low under the stage.

Mario is ****ing easy to gimp, his vertical recovery is nothing short of awful in my experience at least compared to a lot of other characters. Your fair outranges everything but his bair so you can use it liberally with little consequence. Mario's range in general is pretty average, and all he has to make up for it is fireball rush (which is completely nulified by PSI magnet, you just hold it to absorb and release as they try and hit you).

His awesome uair can mess up dair approaches a little though.

You can't really use projectiles well against him, though. It's a small price to pay when you outplay him with your direct attacks though.

Basically, don't **** up against Mario and it's an easy match, I'd say 60-40 Lucas, if not 65-35.

 

[ToxiCrow]

^^^
we're talking about olimar. the thread title hasnt been updated

 

[Chuee]

Olimar has too good of grabs. He has good combos with them. His sideB can be extremely annoying. Knock them off with dtilt instead of jab or ftilt since you use them more often.

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

I hate Olimar very much...one time he gimped my PK Thunder with a Purple Pikmin...and he keeps cancelling out my PK Fires with Pikmin. His grabs are super annoying. I usually use Dair to help with approaching though. And he's pretty easy to gimp. I would say the matchup is near even, maybe 55-45 Oli's favor.

 

[Chuee]

Oh and pay attention to his pikman order. If you dont you'll end up getting fsmashed by a purple pikman which happened to my marth once.

 

[HelpR]

Olimar... is an interesting beast.

well, let's look at several aspects of him and lucas fighting eh?

Olimar's abilities to fight change depending on the pikmin he has in stock. that's the most basic rule of the little guy. If an olimar has a red or yellow pikmin next in line, expect him to try and spike, if the olimar has a purple, except any smash, aerial, or attack for that matter, if a white one is next, except a grab or a throw. if it's blue, a grab or a throw.

Of course, that's assuming the olimar is perfect, which they rarely are. Another thing to watch out for is the pikmin that's last in line, as that becomes the pikmin that is at the end of the up special, a significant attack on the ground, as a purple pikmin can end it quickly.

This matchup depends on many things, but most of all, in my opinion, how good the olimar keeps track of his pikmin, and how well you do so too. There are many things that can curve this match in favor of the lucas though. the bulk of lucas' attack uses electricity, meaning, that after a good amount of fighting, it's not unlikely the bulk of the remaining pikmin will be yellow. If you use PK fire, you can change this. Yellow has spiking properties , and is good for the lucas for onstage combat, as you cant scar downward through the stage.... can you? Red has generally good knockback overall. out of the two, I'd prefer to have yellow pikmin to fight.

quick, strong attacks are the name of the game aganst olimar. dont decay your forward smash, and the olimar can die as early as 60-80 from the center of the stage, even if the smash isnt charged.

his small size makes him an annoyance to fight in the air against. SH DA seems very effective, and SH NA seems far too difficult to use on olimar to bother with. shield pressure tactics work nicely against olicar, and using forward tilt makes for a decent attack, though staying off the ground alot is recommended, as both the downsmash and forward smash of olimar cover him quite well.

Sorry for the ungodly long post, but these are my views on the little hocotate alien. This is one of the matchups that seems tu curve in favor of the olimar as the skill of the players increases, when the olimar and lucas are both scrubs, then it appears to be about even, however, as the two get better, the olimar should have the advantage, as all of olimar's skills can be fully taken advantage of.

As I said earlier, the name of the game is keeping an eye on the pikmin olimar has.

 

[c3gill]

dont decay your forward smash, and the olimar can die as early as 60-80 from the center of the stage, even if the smash isnt charged.

WHAT? other than that^^^^ well said. But no way i believe someone is dying at 60% from an uncharged Fsmash.

EDIT- especially from the center of a stage! on a computer on level 9, at 80%, from the center of FD,an uncharged, "undecayed" Fsmash will hit him for ~15%, and doesnt require Pikmin to recover.

I then managed to hit with with Lucas' Fsmash, switch controllers to Olimar @ now 95%, and recover with no Pikmin. So it doesnt even require much DI to pull this off.

 

[Levitas]

c3gill, yeah olimar doesn't die just like that.

@HelpR Welcome to smashboards ^_^

While keeping an eye on the pikmin olimar has out is important, a good olimar will not be so predictable as to always use the same attack pattern depending on what pikmin color is next, especially if you're considering it to be "perfect play"


Don't SH DA. Use a full hop, or you'll end up in large amounts of lag and only get the first 2 or so hits out.

 

[HelpR]

WHAT? other than that^^^^ well said. But no way i believe someone is dying at 60% from an uncharged Fsmash.

EDIT- especially from the center of a stage! on a computer on level 9, at 80%, from the center of FD,an uncharged, "undecayed" Fsmash will hit him for ~15%, and doesnt require Pikmin to recover.

I then managed to hit with with Lucas' Fsmash, switch controllers to Olimar @ now 95%, and recover with no Pikmin. So it doesnt even require much DI to pull this off.

Must of deleted my comment on bad DI when I was editing it. like horrible DI. in an optimal situation however, it is possible to kill olimar extremely early (end of the hitbox for forward smash, bad DI, 60-80% damage, can kill, easily in fact, at least from my experience)

It was written as a testament to olimar's lightness, but thank you for pointing out my error.

c3gill, yeah olimar doesn't die just like that.

@HelpR Welcome to smashboards ^_^

While keeping an eye on the pikmin olimar has out is important, a good olimar will not be so predictable as to always use the same attack pattern depending on what pikmin color is next, especially if you're considering it to be "perfect play"


Don't SH DA. Use a full hop, or you'll end up in large amounts of lag and only get the first 2 or so hits out.

Well, it's not perfect play because it's extremely predictable, what I meant was that it does affect the decisions by alot, and there are some optimal moves, and what should be expected at a certain situation. thanks for pointing that out though

as for your SH DA comment, yeah, ending DA too early is bad, needs more of a midhop to avoid lag really, a full hop will just go over olimar's head though.

 

[Levitas]

There is no such thing as a midhop. Variable jump height, while common in platformers, has never been in smash. Since 64, there's only been a SH and FH.

FH doesn't have to miss olimar, just do the Dair sooner and it'll hit (even with all 4).

And you're absolutely right that color can influence decisions. my bad if the misinterpretation was on my end.

 

[c3gill]

Must of deleted my comment on bad DI when I was editing it. like horrible DI. in an optimal situation however, it is possible to kill olimar extremely early (end of the hitbox for forward smash, bad DI, 60-80% damage, can kill, easily in fact, at least from my experience)

It was written as a testament to olimar's lightness, but thank you for pointing out my error.

It seems foolish, at least to me, to assume errors on our opponents (improper spacing, horrible or lack of DI, and no recovery)- shouldnt we assume they are playing their character perfectly? If they play perfectly, then we can analyze characters flaws, rather than an individuals playstyle flaws. By analyzing character flaws, we can determine how to play against all Olimars- which is what this is about.

As for his weight, you could have just said that Olimar is .919 Mario's weight, which places him at the 9th lightest character (tied with Falco). However, unlike pure weight, he is one of the characters that is most susceptible to moves with high knock back. The list of weight, although M2K also made a much more complex list.

 

[Levitas]

Everyone has two "weight" constants. One is acceleration due to gravity. The other is mass.

Without saying that you're using one constant, the other, or the two multiplied together, the numbers mean nothing.

As far as assuming mistakes, there's no reason to assume "perfect play", because in most cases, we don't really know what that means. "competitive level play" works well, and if we don't discuss common mistakes made by an opponent, we won't all know how to punish it the first time (and possibly won't even see it as a mistake in a worst case scenario)

 

[c3gill]

As far as assuming mistakes, there's no reason to assume "perfect play", because in most cases, we don't really know what that means. "competitive level play" works well, and if we don't discuss common mistakes made by an opponent, we won't all know how to punish it the first time (and possibly won't even see it as a mistake in a worst case scenario)

On a competitive level of play, how often is your opponent going to NOT use DI or DI in the wrong direction?

 

[Levitas]

I DI incorrectly often in a game. I DI correctly nearly every time when it comes to survival at high %, though.

I'm addressing your statement as a blanket statement, not as a response to HelpR's post about low % fsmash KOs

 

[c3gill]

i still think it works- if we assume perfect play on our opponent, we must discover flaws inherit to that character- and therefore something that is going to be much harder for our opponent to cover up than a flaw in their playstyle, if they can mask it at all.

I guess its the difference in playing proactively and reactively- if we know how to exploit our opponent before seeing them actually use their character, doesnt it give us a massive advantage? We can immediatly work our opponent to our advantage, rather than waiting for a mistake to exploit them. I guess it could work against us every now and then, but I think generally speaking knowing every characters advantages and disadvantages will allow us to put ourselves in an advantageous position from the start of a match.

 

[Levitas]

I never said we shouldn't discuss those flaws, too.

I'm saying that we should discuss a wider range of exploits.

 

[c3gill]

lol mmmk then- so what are Olimars biggest flaws as a character? he has decent range with Pikmin Throws, great grab range, decent aerials, and he has a red Pikmin to screw up PK Fire....... he is rather floaty and someone lightweight, so early KOs. What else can we use in this fight to our advantage?

 

[ToxiCrow]

should we summon the Olimar mains?

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

Well, can't Lucas's Dair overcome Oli's Usmash? You can use Dair to approach him.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

Well, can't Lucas's Dair overcome Oli's Usmash? You can use Dair to approach him.

I was at a tourney yesterday and my pool leader played a very nice olimar. From fighting him I can tell you that lucas' down air does not beat out upsmash

 

[c3gill]

I was at a tourney yesterday and my pool leader played a very nice olimar. From fighting him I can tell you that lucas' down air does not beat out upsmash

Doesnt his upsmash's power and priority depend on the next Pikmin? If it does, I bet a Dair goes through a white Pikmin (maybe more?). I dunno, but I do know some Olimar mains probabally could help us out on this discussion......

 

[ToxiCrow]

yeah i just posted a thread there asking them to come over here
how about his U-air? does it depend on pikmin too?

i'm not too worried about getting gimped. we hav so many options against him
he only has one option tho. i've tried this against ivysaur and it works, not too sure on olimar tho.

grab the edge and when they do their UP-b, DI towards the stage and tech and they wont be able to grab the ledge from you again.
it works vs ivysaur, but maybe it can work agaisnt olimar too
and i was watching a video of Oats vs an Olimar, and nair kills their pikmin toss

 

[Levitas]

They'll always DI up so you're not gonna get gimps like that often unless you it them while they're offstage with something.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

yeah i just posted a thread there asking them to come over here
how about his U-air? does it depend on pikmin too?

i'm not too worried about getting gimped. we hav so many options against him
he only has one option tho. i've tried this against ivysaur and it works, not too sure on olimar tho.

grab the edge and when they do their UP-b, DI towards the stage and tech and they wont be able to grab the ledge from you again.
it works vs ivysaur, but maybe it can work agaisnt olimar too
and i was watching a video of Oats vs an Olimar, and nair kills their pikmin toss

Nair is definately an extremely big part of a lucas' game vs olimar. The only problem you will have is that since nair does not hurt the yellow pikmin you will often find that the olimar will have a high amount of yellow pikmin following him around which means that nair's usefullness begins to fall behind as the game lasts longer.

From my experience against olimar it seems that lucas has an extremely hard time approaching olimar especially with olimar's insane pivot grab, and his up smash seems to beat out lucas down air (although I don't think I have tried it against every color pikmin). This pretty much shuts down any sort of approach that lucas can throw at him.

 

[Levitas]

Lucas shuts down olimar's approaches too.

 

[Brinzy]

Fortunately for Olimar, he doesn't have to approach most of the time.

That said, Lucas seems to do pretty decent against him.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Nair is definately an extremely big part of a lucas' game vs olimar. The only problem you will have is that since nair does not hurt the yellow pikmin you will often find that the olimar will have a high amount of yellow pikmin following him around which means that nair's usefullness begins to fall behind as the game lasts longer.

From my experience against olimar it seems that lucas has an extremely hard time approaching olimar especially with olimar's insane pivot grab, and his up smash seems to beat out lucas down air (although I don't think I have tried it against every color pikmin). This pretty much shuts down any sort of approach that lucas can throw at him.

yeah but Chaos, how often is he going to hav all yellow pikmin? you can still approach with nair but u hav to be careful about it
and i know the red pikmin can survive PKF, but how about the yellow ones?
and if he does throw a yellow pikmin, our nair cant take care of it but can our jab?

 

[HelpR]

snake rope has always been a reliable friend against olimar. the guy is probably the least reliable tether in the game in my opinion, and the fact that he doesn't do damage with his zair annoys me, however, it's possible to gimp any olimar that has fallen below the ledge by simply waiting and coming into the ledge when they attempt to up B. A good olimar player is difficult to gimp (in fact, a smart one would simply foot stool you if they get above you,) however, this should slant the match somewhat in favor of lucas.

fair, dair, dsmash, bair, and usmash all have electrical properties, though one should keep in mind that if you hit with the sour spots of fair and dair, it can still kill yellow pikmin.

forward special cant hurt red pikmin, but it can stop other pikmin that are being tossed your way, so you shouldnt worry all that much about being punished for using pk fire provided it lands. It kills blue, white, and yellow pikmin, and makes purple pikmin stop what they're doing. red pikmin fly straight through. just kill the fire if they land on you, and using pk fire should be a low risk tactic, just dont use it closer then the max range of the attack.

remember that pikmin are vulnerable after smashes, most specials, and aerials (though for some less then others), but not olimar's grab. try to avoid being on the ground near him if you dont want the buggers to grab you, as that's his most potent attack in my opinion, especially if you have a pikmin on you already.

whistle cancel is a boon in favor of the olimar, though it's nothing more then something to keep an eye on.

thanks for not eating me out too badly when I made mistakes, hope to get to know yall better

 

[Brinzy]

snake rope has always been a reliable friend against olimar. the guy is probably the least reliable tether in the game in my opinion, and the fact that he doesn't do damage with his zair annoys me, however, it's possible to gimp any olimar that has fallen below the ledge by simply waiting and coming into the ledge when they attempt to up B. A good olimar player is difficult to gimp (in fact, a smart one would simply foot stool you if they get above you,) however, this should slant the match somewhat in favor of lucas.

Eh... not really. All this does is make Lucas a bit harder to stagespike from Oli's Up B. If you read Oli carefully, this is, of course, better than just grabbing the edge, but barely. You also run the risk of being in range of an uair or something where pulling yourself up prior would've pulled you out of range. Still, having the option > not having it.

 

[ToxiCrow]

^^^^^
wow you post like you've been here for awhile=]
you dont sound like a noob at all HelpR
but we dont hav to worry about getting footstooled while trying to edgeguard. we can edgeguard safely on the stage by PKT, PKfreeze and PKfire(PKF is great for edgeguarding btw. i'm trying to use it more often)
if u wanna get tricky tho, then u can bair, dair, fair, nair etc.

RopeSnake isnt a bad idea...its risky tho...i like it!

 

[Levitas]

HelpR, we're all friendly here, I promise.

I like lucas's tether better than T. Link's, link's, and Ivysaur's.

Fsmash reflects side b when they decide to get lazy with it.

I like just edgehogging, even if it isn't invincibly. Lucas can always tech, and his recovery with a second jump is nuts. All you have to do is not die to make it worthwhile.