Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[fromundaman]

Awesome, I should be there! Maybe you can teach me some Lucas tricks while were at it.

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, PK fire is Lucas' best spacing tool, isn't it? Also, if you PK waveland, do you have time to get a grab in if it's shielded/caped?

 

[PKNintendo]

As others have said, it is a close matchup, but Mario is now the king of the lower tiers.

Yeah, by .6 votes. And I disregard some points from Mario, because some wise guy (Infernape avatar) put Mario in high tier.

LOL, Mario's good, but high tier? And second best too.

Spoiler

and as usual, he put Ness in Lucas in low tier. I don't care about the Ness placement, but Im 99% he put Lucas there because he thought they were clones)

 

[fromundaman]

Bah, higher tier doesn't mean that every matchup will be better. People need to stop using 'this character is higher/lower tier' as justification for matchups...

 

[PKNintendo]

Bah, higher tier doesn't mean that every matchup will be better. People need to stop using 'this character is higher/lower tier' as justification for matchups...

What does this have to do with my post?

 

[Kanzaki]

Lol @ Ness.



Anywho, how to gimp Lucas:

Double Jump -> Lol at Fireball spike :] + Various Aerials.
Zap Jump -> Lol at Fireball spike :] + Various Aerials
Magnet Pull -> I hear PK Fire, must be setting up for a zap jump, let's use a bair to intercept it! If it's not a magnet pull, lol at following through.
Pk Thunder -> Super soaker! or cape... or aerials...
Tether -> Lol at edge hogging.

Usually when edge guardian a Lucas, if he's recovering high, I'm on the stage anticipating a magnet pull or anything that I can intercept, if he's stage level or below, I edge hog, and refresh my invincibility frames through cape stalling or planking. Only thing I have to look out for while off the stage with Lucas is his dair and bair, that both spikes..


And lol PKNintendo, don't even bring Ness into this discussion, Mario's dtilt can gimp him :[

 

[fromundaman]

I didn't aim it at yours in particular. I was just sayingthat since it seemed we were starting to bring that mentality into this matchup discussion...

 

[Levitas]

Lol @ Ness.



Anywho, how to gimp Lucas:

Double Jump -> Lol at Fireball spike :] + Various Aerials.
Zap Jump -> Lol at Fireball spike :] + Various Aerials
Magnet Pull -> I hear PK Fire, must be setting up for a zap jump, let's use a bair to intercept it! If it's not a magnet pull, lol at following through.
Pk Thunder -> Super soaker! or cape... or aerials...
Tether -> Lol at edge hogging.

Dark Pch used this strategy of argument as a peach on how to approach with lucas through his pk fire. The point isn't that you have that many options, it's that at max, one or two might be viable at a given time. Also, you've shown a blatant disregard for our recovery pattern. In particular, the following:

1. When we zap jump, we input a jump, then a pk fire. Meaning a zap jump is strictly faster than a DJ. Meaning that if we can manipulate a DJ's timing and spacing to avoid a fireball (which we most definately can) we can manipulate a zap jump's timing.

2. "I hear PK Fire, must be setting up for a zap jump, let's use a bair to intercept" you'd have to be a freaking mile above us to react to a cue that happens halfway INTO the zap jump's movement with a move to intercept. Once again, zap jump = jump THEN pk fire.

3. I've argued the point that the only time lucas is getting soaked is when he's using the pkt in a wrong position.

4. Cool @ tether -> edgehog. Because just like all the other characters that rely on tethering, lucas doesn't have 2 other primary forms of recovery that you now can't edgeguard because you decided to commit yourself to the edge. if we need PKT, you won't be able to intercept well, and will have to hit with something fast upon our landing on the stage. Heaven forbid we zap jump, because that would mean we're back for free.

Actually, your first one isn't a legit option by itself either. intercepting a DJ with a fireball would work much better if we didn't know where the L or R buttons were.

Usually when edge guardian a Lucas, if he's recovering high, I'm on the stage anticipating a magnet pull or anything that I can intercept, if he's stage level or below, I edge hog, and refresh my invincibility frames through cape stalling or planking. Only thing I have to look out for while off the stage with Lucas is his dair and bair, that both spikes..


And lol PKNintendo, don't even bring Ness into this discussion, Mario's dtilt can gimp him :[

Usually we're not gonna give you enough time to refresh your ledge invincibility more than once. You make it sound like we give you an hour to edgeguard us. That's only really the case with PKT, and it's clear that the magnet pulls you've been punishing have been a mistake on the lucas's part. PsiM is really punishable, and therefore should really be kept to a minimum except at screen boundries or off of a zapjump.

 

[_clinton]

Actually, your first one isn't a legit option by itself either. intercepting a DJ with a fireball would work much better if we didn't know where the L or R buttons were.

Levitas pretty much did what I wanted to do ^_^

 

[PKNintendo]

Lol @ Ness.



Anywho, how to gimp Lucas:

Double Jump -> Lol at Fireball spike :] + Various Aerials.
Zap Jump -> Lol at Fireball spike :] + Various Aerials
Magnet Pull -> I hear PK Fire, must be setting up for a zap jump, let's use a bair to intercept it! If it's not a magnet pull, lol at following through.
Pk Thunder -> Super soaker! or cape... or aerials...
Tether -> Lol at edge hogging.

Usually when edge guardian a Lucas, if he's recovering high, I'm on the stage anticipating a magnet pull or anything that I can intercept, if he's stage level or below, I edge hog, and refresh my invincibility frames through cape stalling or planking. Only thing I have to look out for while off the stage with Lucas is his dair and bair, that both spikes..


And lol PKNintendo, don't even bring Ness into this discussion, Mario's dtilt can gimp him :[

Get out.
(Ness gets out shotgun)

Ness: get out get out get out get out!

No but seriously, gimping Lucas with Mario isn't that easy.

 

[_clinton]

Get out.
(Ness gets out shotgun)

Ness: get out get out get out get out!

No but seriously, gimping Lucas with Mario isn't that easy.

Silly PKNintendo...Ness doesn't use a shotgun ^_^

PK powers>any gun

 

[ZMan]

Levitas have my babies.

 

[ToxiCrow]

zman
you dirty girl!

 

[Kanzaki]

1. When we zap jump, we input a jump, then a pk fire. Meaning a zap jump is strictly faster than a DJ. Meaning that if we can manipulate a DJ's timing and spacing to avoid a fireball (which we most definately can) we can manipulate a zap jump's timing.

There's not just a fireball, we can follow up with any aerial while Lucas is in his zap jumping animation. Even though it's faster than double jumping, it's still not like 1 frame status.

2. "I hear PK Fire, must be setting up for a zap jump, let's use a bair to intercept" you'd have to be a freaking mile above us to react to a cue that happens halfway INTO the zap jump's movement with a move to intercept. Once again, zap jump = jump THEN pk fire.

I mistyped that, I mean "If I hear PK Fire, must be setting up for magnet pull". Magnet's pull trajectory is horizontal, can't really move it diagonal or anything.. Therefore you're running INTO Mario's bair, unless you PK Fire and don't use Psi Magnet for mind games... Mario's aerials are fast enough that I can just chase you down.

3. I've argued the point that the only time lucas is getting soaked is when he's using the pkt in a wrong position.

At one point or another, eventually you'll have to PK Thunder, because there will be no other option.

4. Cool @ tether -> edgehog. Because just like all the other characters that rely on tethering, lucas doesn't have 2 other primary forms of recovery that you now can't edgeguard because you decided to commit yourself to the edge. if we need PKT, you won't be able to intercept well, and will have to hit with something fast upon our landing on the stage. Heaven forbid we zap jump, because that would mean we're back for free.

If I'm edge hogging and you're using PKT, I'll just ledge drop and bair or something. Hey look! I just intercepted your bair. A few times as well I could cancel out PKT with a fireball, also how would you be able to zap jump if you already used your double jump?

Actually, your first one isn't a legit option by itself either. intercepting a DJ with a fireball would work much better if we didn't know where the L or R buttons were.

Not just Lucas, but I've been able to fireball spike other characters as well, and professional players as well, such as players on SoCal's power rankings. You'll most likely be too busy recovering to notice a fireball coming in.

Usually we're not gonna give you enough time to refresh your ledge invincibility more than once. You make it sound like we give you an hour to edgeguard us. That's only really the case with PKT, and it's clear that the magnet pulls you've been punishing have been a mistake on the lucas's part. PsiM is really punishable, and therefore should really be kept to a minimum except at screen boundries or off of a zapjump.

Planking with Mario is dropping down, and then up+b-ing back to an auto sweet spot. Mario's up+b has invincibilitiy frames AND he can almost immediately auto sweet spot the ledge after dropping a bit... So pretty much, Mario's planking abilities are as good as Metaknight's. ALSO, do you know what cape stalling is? It doesn't fully have invincibility frames, but enough that it'll be hard to knock Mario out of stalling.

 

[Levitas]

There's not just a fireball, we can follow up with any aerial while Lucas is in his zap jumping animation. Even though it's faster than double jumping, it's still not like 1 frame status.

Frame 1 it's a DJ. I'm not entirely sure what the frame data is for a zap jump, but just like a DJ, it is frame 1.

The fact that you need to set up with a fireball in order for the aerial to be effective means that you need some time for this to be effective. Don't expect this much time often.

I mistyped that, I mean "If I hear PK Fire, must be setting up for magnet pull". Magnet's pull trajectory is horizontal, can't really move it diagonal or anything.. Therefore you're running INTO Mario's bair, unless you PK Fire and don't use Psi Magnet for mind games... Mario's aerials are fast enough that I can just chase you down.

That's reasonable. Usually if I magnet pull, it's not the whole reverse PK fire to magnet for the horizontal stuff for exactly the reason you listed.

At one point or another, eventually you'll have to PK Thunder, because there will be no other option.

I can PKT recover from beyond your fludd's range and make it back to the stage, and there's a blind spot on the fludd for low angles where you'd need to do something else. It is tricky to recover with PKT2 against both your fludd and cape, though.

If I'm edge hogging and you're using PKT, I'll just ledge drop and bair or something. Hey look! I just intercepted your bair. A few times as well I could cancel out PKT with a fireball, also how would you be able to zap jump if you already used your double jump?

I'm assuming you mistyped again for obvious reasons. PKT2 has pretty nuts priority, starting with a blast zone at the beginning and multiple hitboxes that cover him quite well throughout the animation. If you're not hitting him out of the charge time, you'd better cape. Either way, I don't see it happening often because a lucas looking for a tether will either jump back to the stage (with cover from an attack or dodge, of course) or retreat for a long range recovery.

Not just Lucas, but I've been able to fireball spike other characters as well, and professional players as well, such as players on SoCal's power rankings. You'll most likely be too busy recovering to notice a fireball coming in.

Arguments based on authority are dumb. Would my arguments be more credible if I said I recover most of the time even against anther? No.

Also, if I'm too busy "recovering" (I'm thinking this is the part where I hit x or maybe up b?) and I can't be bothered to notice the move that you're edgeguarding me with, I'm not much of a player, am I?

Peach players go on about how good turnips are at edgeguarding, and it's the same thing. It was the same in melee too. Usually you can force us into a more restricted recovery pattern, but it would be foolish to claim anything past what you have in that post.

Planking with Mario is dropping down, and then up+b-ing back to an auto sweet spot. Mario's up+b has invincibilitiy frames AND he can almost immediately auto sweet spot the ledge after dropping a bit... So pretty much, Mario's planking abilities are as good as Metaknight's. ALSO, do you know what cape stalling is? It doesn't fully have invincibility frames, but enough that it'll be hard to knock Mario out of stalling.

I don't care about how safe it is for you. I care about the fact that you're stuck on the edge for some absurd amount of time before you can ledgedrop and actually go back to edgeguarding. Lucas would have been good at recovering in melee, despite the fact that people could take an action from the edge almost immediately. He's better at it here because you're stuck on the edge for a while.

While we're on this subject: Mario is not as good at planking as MK. It's not nearly as safe for him because he can't sit for an absurd amount of time under the edge and maintain options for recovering to either edge like MK. Invincibility for a limited period of time only does you so much good.

 

[Judge Judy]

While we're on this subject: Mario is not as good at planking as MK. It's not nearly as safe for him because he can't sit for an absurd amount of time under the edge and maintain options for recovering to either edge like MK. Invincibility for a limited period of time only does you so much good.

Mario is not as good at planking as MK but he's still one of the better characters at it.

 

[Levitas]

Mario is not as good at planking as MK but he's still one of the better characters at it.

I will not argue against that, nor have I.

 

[PKNintendo]

Mario is not as good at planking as MK but he's still one of the better characters at it.

Really? I didn't know that. Video?

 

[_clinton]

Are we still talking about this?

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

Mario vs. Lucas seems nearly even. Lucas can outrange Mario, but Mario has lol fireballs and his cape can completely shut down PK Fiyah, PK Fweeze, and PK Thundah. As long as you're not predictable and can space and can approach well, you shouldn't have any trouble ONSTAGE. Offstage is when Lucas can get *****. 2 things - FLUDD and Cape lol. FLUDD screws your PK Thunder control, but if you can Zap Jump or Magnet Pull and use Tether, you shouldn't need to use PK Thundah. Cape can also mess with your PK Thundah control, but you can avoid using that as said before. Overall, I would say that it's 50-50.

 

[Irsic]

I know it's annoying to not state anything, since I don't feel like typing, but I really feel as though this is an even match-up. 50-50.

 

[_clinton]

I feel Ness is 50:50...as for Lucas...I don't see an even match at all...I really feel Lucas has the + for this match...

 

[ToxiCrow]

should we discuss roy next??

 

[ZMan]

Roy wins 10-0

we need to do olimar now

 

[Chuee]

Olimar's too small.

 

[_clinton]

Olimar is annoying to fight

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

I played an Olimar today, and he cp'd Luigi's Mansion against me...and he even threw a Purple Pikmin at me and cancelled out my PK Thundah =/

 

[ToxiCrow]

ok, we can discuss roy another day

Olimar it is. and i know for one, it's way easier for Lucas to gimp him that it is for Olimar to gimp Lucas

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

don't do olimar. it's a trap.
no need to discuss. Roy vs Lucas is 200:-100 Roy's favor
he induces hitstun from ssb64. wavedashes, z-cancels, makes gravity like melee and 0-death every char on SSBB except for mewtwo.

 

[ToxiCrow]

while he does l cancel and wavedashes, his lack of range (since the sweetspot is closer to the handle) and his subpar KO moves (over reliance on forward smash) make this match up a little harder for roy.

marth can grab-release lucas into a butt load of moves, but roy cannot. more info on this later.
----------------------------------

now olimar has so many ko moves it's insane. not to mention they all hav great range (so do his grabs)
pikmin toss stops our PKF and he's safe at a distance....so what are we gonna do??

discuss fellow Omeletrons

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

He doesn't l-cancel, he z-cancels [see:smash 64]. Roy's range is still greater than lucas'
He can also grab release infinite him be grab -> pummel -> ground release -> wavedash grab -> repeat till close to edge -> wavedash pivot grab -> start over. His grab release is stupid. it's just like bowser's. he has 20 frames to f*** you up.

i'm not talking about lolimar. remember last time...

 

[ToxiCrow]

maybe you're not using lucas right because lucas is immune to wavedash grabs.
try it out

i wasnt here when last time happened...what happened last time??

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

guess we debunked the infinite. i gotta do proper testing, though.
maybe YOU aren't doing it right.

go back to page 37. start from there...

 

[prOAPC]

they said Lucas is easy too gimp

Roy can't sweetspot the edge, Lucas' dsmash owns Roy

vs lolimar, fsmash, nair, dsmash, ftilt, pk thunder and pk fire are your best weapons
nair and dsmash last forever if a yellow pikmin is attacking you, some random fsmashes help to kill pikmins and reflect them, ftilt and pk fire for spacing, but i don't really use them in this matchup, and obviosly pkt for the gimp, use it to make them waste their second jump, works really good after they grab the ledge with their upB
i would say 50-50 because Olimar is really good on stage, with his smashes, grabs and priority
learn how to play olimar, and the difference with each pikmin, it helps a lot

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

he still 0-death lucas. one uthrow and the utilts + uairs commence into some fairs -> fsmash. Roy's our boy.

 

[Levitas]

he still 0-death lucas. one uthrow and the utilts + uairs commence into some fairs -> fsmash. Roy's our boy.

Roy can 0-death Lucas?!?!?!

 

[ToxiCrow]

Roy can 0-death Lucas?!?!?!

no. pink's lucas sucks.
he forgets to jump because he's in awe by roy's fir3.
roy doesnt play much like marth- lucas has an infinite grab release on him.
grab->pummel->grab->pummel->down throw at 140 to ko

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

wtf roy's grab release animation is 20 frames. what roy mains have you been playing?


levi missed part of the argument, detailing that roy 0-deaths everyone in the game, except for mewtwo.

 

[Levitas]

That's lame. I mean, how dumb is it that lucas can just grab roy and mash A. That takes like no skill, and makes Roy have a pretty much guaranteed gameloss on game 2 if the opponent has half a brain.


Mewtwo's shield hits MK through his mach tornado. broken.

 

[ToxiCrow]

wtf roy's grab release animation is 20 frames. what roy mains have you been playing?

not in brawl its not. its 100 frames in brawl.

sethlon??

 

[ZMan]

roy beats every character in brawl 9000 to -1000000000000 cept for mewtwo, which is 50-50. he has guarantee 0-deaths on everybody, all moves are safe even on block or when wiffed, and he fully charged nuetral b is a ONE HIT KO.

roy's our boy