Lucario Stage Discussion: Reviewing information

[Ambient_Horizon]

I would agree also that Aura Sphere camping. Even if your just launching a volley of baby ones that they work well here against Snake.

Why not Japes? For starters if you knocked in the water you're screwed basically. But its mainly that Snake can camp fairly well here. Since most of the platforms are small he has a lot of good places where he can set landmines and C4 which in that dark orange light its REALLY hard to spot them when put in the right places. But mainly you'll find that its easier for him to camp you with Grenades than it is for you to camp with Aura Sphere. We can just bait you guys and force the approach with Grenades which eventually leaves to traps that if your facing a good Snake...its more than likely its a trap. It'll also be hard to kill Snake here because of the high vertical boundary of the stage. Snake is already pretty **** fat. You'll just have to rely on horizontal kills. And as we know Snake's grab > Lucario's. Having to play Snake on a stage where he can outcamp you and out melee you is just rough.

I will say this: If you can live long enough for the Aura Mod to make a difference. Japes is plenty doable. But until then Snake has a clear advantage on this stage.

Thats why you dont need to take Snake to Japes.

 

[phi1ny3]

I actually disagree with not taking to Japes. I'm sure that it is icky for grenade pressure, but since snake is more of a vertical killer (utilt is usually fresh, all explosives kill you vertically, and ftilt stales kind of quickly), lucario lives longer, plus lucario's recovery is actually pretty good even in watery areas. On top of that, lucario isn't a very good vertical killer, and going against a heavy character usually means you won't be going for a vertical killer anytime soon. plus on small platforms like this lucario has a pretty nice area of effect with his attacks, and with all these things considered, I would consider japes almost borderline CP vs. snake.

 

[Ambient_Horizon]

Well I guess me personally for that stage as a Snake player I always like to keep F-Tilt fresh for this for this occasion. I guess in a sense youre right though. Japes isn't good in terms of Vertical kills. If you can live long enough than go for it. Good Snakes though will be working around this but you have better horizontal kill moves than he does. Snake's Bair can be nasty on a stage like this though its already powerful. I dont like Japes against Snake but I think Japes sucks either way you slice it.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Pokemon Stadium 2 is a good CP against Snake, the electrical field really messes with Snake the most since it pushes him off the stage and forces Snake to recover, which we all know that is Snake's weakness. The air field makes it easier to land fully charged AS, and Snake doesn't have a way to go down quick, Lucario can just extreme speed towards the ground. The ice stage and ground stage and default stage are mostly neutral to both Lucario and Snake.

 

[PhatyCHONG]

Diddy Kong vs. Lucario - Stage Discussion

Quote Note: This was taken from "The Official Diddy Kong Tournament Stage Matchup Discussion" and was told to post from JOG "The Author of the Lucario Stage CP/Ban Discussion" for Diddy Kong vs. Lucario

"The Official Diddy Kong Tournament Stage Matchup Discussion"
Diddy Kong vs. Lucario​

Lucario:

Counterpicks: Final Destination, Smashville, Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise, Brinstar, Battlefield
Reason for Counter:

Final Destination
- Overall always a good diddy stage
- Bad: No platforms to avoid Lucario Blast
- Defensive play

Smashville
- Overall alway a good diddy stage
- A platform to help you against some of lucario blast while 50% of the time have no interuption of the platform getting in way of banana game.
- [IMO] Better than FD on this matchup
- Offensive play

Rainbow Cruise
- Fair gets nerfed
- Easily gimped recovery
- Bad: D air get buffed
- Transformation 1 - Diddy's Favor: Always own on the ship, pressure towards that lip.
- Transformation 2 - Slight Lucario Favor: Has higher priority but can be easily gimped
- Transformation 3 - Diddy's Favor: can help get kills against Lucario because of the low ceiling and Lucario being hard to kill

Lylat Cruise
- Lucario struggles to recovery in many different situations
- Tilt hurts Lucario blast

Lylat Cruise​

Lucario should struggle to recover in a lot of different situations. The most notable is when Lucario is under Lylat because he will be forced to semi-circle around. If Lucario is recovering from a diagonal than he will most likely be home-free BUT the stage may tilt and he may hit the "bottom" and die. He will most likely live if he is going horizontally.
No matter what I think Diddy should do one of two things: 1. Grab the ledge which is probably preferable or 2. Throw a banana at him (works best if he is coming horizontally so it brings him under the stage more).

What I meant was that, let's say the stage tilts like this \. If Lucario is on the right side of the stage and shoots an aura sphere, the ball with hit the center of Lylat and will not travel to hit Diddy just like any other projectile.

Brinstar
- Easier to kill lucario
- Small Blast zone
- Easy to Camp lucario
- Stage hurts lucario's blast
- Bad: Hard to gimped
- Good: Hard to be gimped

Battlefield
- Any Neutral is good against Lucario
- Wouldn't CP or Ban

Bans: Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Norfair, Yoshi Island, Luigi Mansion
Reason for Ban:

Frigate Orpheon
- Considered Lucario's best stage
- Really hard to Gimp because he always have walls to cling to.
- Can Wall cling in every transformation
- Slope of the 2nd part of the transformation helps his Fair and Dair
- You can be gimped
- The Platforms that come out of the side of the stage only helps him more

Jungle Japes
- Lucario can CAMP
- High Ceiling help Lucario even more
- Hard to be gimped here
- Lucario can live longer on this stage than most

Norfair
- Considered one of Diddy's worst stage
- Lucario ground game and air game get buffed here
- More likely to be tech chased
- Hard to Gimp here
- Hard to be gimped here
- Aura sphere gets buffed

Yoshi Island
- Lucarios Best Neutral
- He can wall cling to avoid gimps
- Lucarios tend [no evidence but can be said] to CP there best neutral which would be Yoshi Island

Undecided/Neutral: Luigi Mansion
Reason for Undecided/Neutral
Luigi Mansion
Cons:
- Hard to kill lucario here when he is in the Mansion
- Pillars give Lucario an extended hit box
- Aura sphere gets nerfed because of the pillars
- Lucario can camp under the ceiling
Pros:
- Rocket Barrel Cancel is a beast
- Diddy can maneuver better than lucario
- Peanuts help against Lucario aerials
- Once mansion is knocked down, its like FD

 

[Trela]

I agree that Lucario does really good against Diddy on FD. I've even tested it; works great.

I need to test it some more, but ****, I thought Lucario gets ***** on that stage! I also agree that Luigis can be a good CP on him, but not that gewd

Anyways, for Snake, ummm, watch out for platforms

=Trela=

 

[Aurasmash14]

Though I hate the stage itself, i actually like to use Rainbow cruise against snake. if only because Aerial mobility is needed on this stage. But yeah the small blastlines means we just cant go punching him up.

 

[phi1ny3]

On the subject of Diddy, I love taking them to BF, just because I feel comfortable there, and bananas seem to be picked up very easily on the platforms with fair/nair/uair.

 

[jog]

and a bump for GW

 

[Aurasmash14]

Game and watch...... ummm His recovery is great and he himself isnt gimpable. maybe FD as a neutral stage? not very sure lol.

 

[HyperEnergy]

Considering how GaW likes to kill up, Japes and Orpheon would probably do well in this matchup.

 

[Cyan_]

Japes is very good for Lucario in this match up. I lost game 3 in a tourney set when a Lucario CP'd me here.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Considering how GaW likes to kill up, Japes and Orpheon would probably do well in this matchup.

Frigate Orpheon's ceiling is lower than FD's, actually.

 

[HyperEnergy]

Frigate Orpheon's ceiling is lower than FD's, actually.

Hey, you're right. Why am I thinking Frigate has a specifically large verticle killzone?

 

[phi1ny3]

because it is larger than some others?
Also, we all should know this, RC + G&W = nono for lucario.
I liek Japes and FD for this.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Japes DOES save us from upsmash, but what if we get keyed? (sorry for my noobness but i dont know G and W that well ( get to yoshi quick and i can help the most there)

 

[phi1ny3]

And dsmash. Also, key spike is very rare, what is more of a problem is fair killing imo on that stage, especially if sweetspotted. It won't kill early, but it sure will at higher percents.

 

[Browny]

lmao i picked japes vs one of the best G&W in aus last tourney

i spent 7 minutes under the main platform, only using full charge AS, fsmash and maybe a few bairs. Its probably more of a lucario good stage than it is G&W bad stage, however. then again, i dont think G&W even has any bad stages :/

 

[Nubsta5]

I personally think that FD is a horrid stage against G&W. And Japes kinda is, too.

With G&W's ability to bucket brake and, against Luc, live over 50% longer per stock, I actually think smaller blast zones would be more beneficial in this matchup. Yes, I sound like a flaming idiot, saying this, but when a G&W consistently is able to live past 160 on his/her stock and still kill you at 110, upwards, on Japes with, a down smash, you tend to reconsider.

Obviously, you don't want a super small stage, but I think stages like Smashville, Yoshi's, PS1, and Brinstar are effective enough to not be extremely small, but reduce the ability of G&W to bucket brake anything and everything.

 

[phi1ny3]

Vertical kills pretty much nullify bucket braking, iirc.

 

[Nubsta5]

No, they can still bucket brake. It just is much more effective if they DI correctly, but it will still save them about 10-15% per stock from vertical kills (assuming they just don't DI vertical hits, like me... >_>).

 

[Player-4]

Hey guys this is Jog, I'll be using this account from now on because I'm tired of my dumb name. So I'll still be updating with my old account but I'll be using this one from now on for regular posts and everything else.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hmmm...

Your best bet is likely Smashville.

One, it's not excessively huge like FD or Japes so he's not gonna survive as long here.

Two, the platform does very little to help G&W juggle and stuff, while I'd assume it helps Lucario more do his recovery and stuff.

So it's a pretty straightforward stage that doesn't really give G&W that many terrain advantages over Lucario.

That's just my guess honestly.

I really don't see Lucario having much dumb crap in his favor when it comes to stages....

 

[phi1ny3]

No, they can still bucket brake. It just is much more effective if they DI correctly, but it will still save them about 10-15% per stock from vertical kills (assuming they just don't DI vertical hits, like me... >_>).

Knowing how light he is though and how good his recovery is, I'd rather try for a vertical KO if possible.

 

[Aurasmash14]

the only viable vertical killer for G&W is upsmash. which is too punishable.

 

[Player-4]

the only viable vertical killer for G&W is upsmash. which is too punishable.

lolwut?

tipped (sweet spotted) dsmash is always a vertical kill and his upsmash is not as punishable as you think, it has almost no cool down time so he can easily upsmash to any other ground move before you know it. upsmash to fsmash or down tilt are usually the best options.

what do you guys think of Frigate for a CP against him?

 

[Player-1]

Hey guys this is Jog, I'll be using this account from now on because I'm tired of my dumb name. So I'll still be updating with my old account but I'll be using this one from now on for regular posts and everything else.

wtf -.-, in order to be a Player-# you have to love RC, that's the only requirement =o

 

[Player-4]

i don't play lucario only >_>

GW is one of my secondaries so RC is one of my favorite stages

 

[Player-1]

i don't play lucario only >_>

GW is one of my secondaries so RC is one of my favorite stages

happyface.

 

[Player-4]

does anyone know how GW does on frigate?

i'll be updating this thread pretty soon

 

[Splice]

Game and Watch is very good at killing at around 80-110%, which doesn't give Lucario much time to reach his peak 'Aura-level' or whatever. So i'd imagine you'd want a stage you can survive on. However, you'd want to still be able to get him to an area to kill him at low percents. For this readon i'd suggest Luigis Mansion ; If you kill at the top of the mansion, or very close to the edge, GaW has barely anytime to bucket brake, and if you hang around the center, you will be able to survive for a while (and combo).
All you'd want to watch out for is Game and Watch destroying the pillars. Maybe you could use that to your advantage by attacking him while he attempts it. The Lip on this stages edge is also not the best for GaW, so you might be able to screw him over, depends how good the GaW is.

P4, i think GaW does well on frigate. due to mad gimping skills, and mad not-getting-gimped skills, he can wreck you during the stage-changes and will have a better advantage on the edge (your wall clinging would still work, but i doubt you will be able to use it to heavily damage a good GaW players percentage, or stock amount). I wouldn't recommend it anyhow.


EDIT : As a Game and Watch i hate Brinstar. It screws up my Dair and i rarely have time to bucket brake, although i'm only an adept at this, i have not mastered it. you may want to consider this, if say someone bans Luigis Mansion.

 

[Aurasmash14]

*applauds* congratulations you just gave more info than the last 10 posts.


@ jog (oops i mean player-4) i agree with this guy im not taking Game and watch to frigate. it's not terrible but there are better options. oh and LOL i never knew dsmash could kill vertically i rarely use it. but i still think upsmash is a bit risky.

 

[Player-4]

I agree with you aurasmash when it comes to GW up-smash I don't use it very often but its still not a bad move and very rewarding if it hits, and when it comes to using his smashes I probably abuse d-smash the most.

Thank you so much Splice, it's so hard to get anyone from other character boards to contribute something good and deep in here. I think Luigi's Mansion would be a pretty good CP against GW as well.

 

[phi1ny3]

dsmash is a very nice vertical killer if it isn't stale.
Luigi's would be good, but the problem is it's kind of soft banned (including in my state). What would I use beyond that? I guess maybe japes would be my next best thing, I dunno.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I agree with you aurasmash when it comes to GW up-smash I don't use it very often but its still not a bad move and very rewarding if it hits, and when it comes to using his smashes I probably abuse d-smash the most.

Thank you so much Splice, it's so hard to get anyone from other character boards to contribute something good and deep in here. I think Luigi's Mansion would be a pretty good CP against GW as well.

I only upsmash if G and W keys. however Dsmash I never use ( I have trouble landing it, but i think ill start using it now)

umm stages against G & W? I dunno either, japes is ok i guess... I like green greens but its soft banned.

 

[Player-4]

I only upsmash if G and W keys. however Dsmash I never use ( I have trouble landing it, but i think ill start using it now)

umm stages against G & W? I dunno either, japes is ok i guess... I like green greens but its soft banned.

oh i thought you were talking about u-smash and d-smash using GW :embarrass
as far as lucario's d-smash and u-smash i would not use them haha and do not go to GGs against a GW. its their home.

 

[phi1ny3]

^this, I thought he was talking about that as well. In that case:

the only viable vertical killer for G&W is upsmash. which is too punishable.

uair is also very good, kills AD pretty well, and is pretty reliable in vertical killing. utilt is also an ok vertical killer at higher percents, but it has to be pretty high to use it. These are lucario's I'm talking about, btw.

 

[Player-4]

usually lucario's utilt is too stale to kill and if your opponent gets high enough that you can use utilt as a kill move he's living too long. now as for GWs utilt, it can kill around 130% so watch for that move as well.

 

[phi1ny3]

usually lucario's utilt is too stale to kill and if your opponent gets high enough that you can use utilt as a kill move he's living too long. now as for GWs utilt, it can kill around 130% so watch for that move as well.

utilt is also an ok vertical killer at higher percents, but it has to be pretty high to use it.

It's an option, but in some matches I don't see it stale often, but it has to be pretty high for it to kill (usually my ftilt/dtilt are more stale at higher percents, since my strategy with utilt is more punish than string-esque utility, but that's me). I use utilt at low percents, then it starts to drop use at mid-high, and that's when jab/grab/other tilts see more use for me, until they get just a little messy around my shield then utilt starts coming into play. Other instances where I know it's more of a matchup breaker move, yes, it will get stale.
I still consider it a better vertical kill option than usmash, unless you get the chance to buffer it quickly oo nair or to punish a really stupid mistake like D3 recovery.
tl version: lucario's vertical options are limited, so I think utilt if used intelligently can become an option against someone as light as G&W, except I like uair much better for that purpose. uair>utilt>usmash, although recent discoveries have made me reconsider usmash (hopefully).

 

[tedward2000]

Lucarios best Vertical kill move: Uair.
If your going for a vertical kill, do it in the air. Upsmash and Uptilt are options, but Uair is best by many regards. Get them in the air, then go for it. Try this by : dash, upthrow, uptilt.
-t2