Lucario Stage Discussion: Reviewing information

[Player-4]

This is all good discussion but lets stay on topic. I really wouldn't go after GW with an u-air very often or expect to get keyed. But even this is off topic >_<

Lets get back to the stages!

 

[Player-4]

GW has been added and front page is updated.

Lets move onto Olimar

 

[Aurasmash14]

cmon p-4 (can i call you this?) cant we wait before olimar in timber's thread is done? the discussion might drop dead again.

 

[Player-4]

Yes, I like P-4 and I don't see why it would drop dead? I can keep the Olimar discussion going myself since I actually play Olimar so it's not a big deal.

I think Timbers is wrapping up the Olimar discussion anyways.

 

[Ledge_g2]

Haunted Mansion: Olimars favour, because the height of the floors is perfect for camping with pikmin latches, also its hard to get around his defence with the room you have to move in.

Norfair: Olimars favour, one of oli's major weaknessess is getting gimped easy, and this rarely happens on norfair. + he loves platforms, probably more then lucario does.

Pirate Ship: Olimar hates water, after about 3 seconds in it all but his blue pikmin drown. although he does like the platform structure here.

Delfino: Lucarios favour, theres water on this level aswell, and olimar is all about stage control, so its harder to keep up when the stage is continually changing.

Jungle Japes: Lucarios favour, again with the water, only he is pretty much dead if he falls in the water half way cos it takes him away from the ledge and kills his pikmin so hes got nothing. also oli loves to kill upward and thats harder to do cos the sky boundry is so high.

Rainbow Cruise: Lucarios favour, this isnt exactly good for lucario but really bad for olimar, its his worst stage. his pikmin constantly get desynced while high up cos they sometimes freak out while over an edge. also again with the stage control, the stage is moving too much. in the boat part he does well but as soon as your off the boat olimar has a hard time.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Haunted Mansion: Olimars favour, because the height of the floors is perfect for camping with pikmin latches, also its hard to get around his defence with the room you have to move in.

Norfair: Olimars favour, one of oli's major weaknessess is getting gimped easy, and this rarely happens on norfair. + he loves platforms, probably more then lucario does.

Pirate Ship: Olimar hates water, after about 3 seconds in it all but his blue pikmin drown. although he does like the platform structure here.

Delfino: Lucarios favour, theres water on this level aswell, and olimar is all about stage control, so its harder to keep up when the stage is continually changing.

Jungle Japes: Lucarios favour, again with the water, only he is pretty much dead if he falls in the water half way cos it takes him away from the ledge and kills his pikmin so hes got nothing. also oli loves to kill upward and thats harder to do cos the sky boundry is so high.

Rainbow Cruise: Lucarios favour, this isnt exactly good for lucario but really bad for olimar, its his worst stage. his pikmin constantly get desynced while high up cos they sometimes freak out while over an edge. also again with the stage control, the stage is moving too much. in the boat part he does well but as soon as your off the boat olimar has a hard time.

Okay guys, this is for the most part wrong >.>

Luigi's Mansion: Normally a good olimar stage, however against lucario it isnt as much. It's still in olimar's favor, if only slight. A smart olimar that's played the matchup before will know to not take a lucario to mansion.

Norfair: Decent stage against olimar. I dont have matchup experience against lucario on this stage, so i wont touch onto it too much. I will say that the extra ledges arent too big of a deal for olimar's recovery. Most olimar mains will tell you the same thing.

Pirate Ship: Okay, this was entirely wrong, what he said. Imagine you fell off battlefield, and get edge hogged. You're dead. Imagine you fall off pirate ship and get edge hogged. Your pikmin die. Well... at least olimar is still alive. Olimar is still able to get back on stage, and pluck more pikmin before lucario can kill him. pirate ship is a slightly above average stage for olimar in my opinion because of this.

Delfino: Saying this is a bad olimar stage is completely stupid. Olimar is able to abuse uair in this stage, as well as taking advantage of the terrain changes for specific pikmin colors, as well as the changes of field for camping purposes. This is possibly one of my favorite olimar stage, and I've had quite a bit of success against lucario here, seeing as how olimar already outcamps lucario. This stage just makes it worse.

Rainbow Cruise: Actually not that bad against lucario. And thinking this is olimar's "Worst Stage" in all situations... no, not at all. Here's what I posted in our stage discussion thread about lucario and rainbow cruise.

hmm i'd have to disagree with rainbow cruise being a worse stage against lucario than japes and frigate. I havent played a Lucarios at Frigate much at all, but have a lot of experience against them on RC and Japes.

Rainbow cruise you're basically playing keep-away, using the stage's layout, until you get in a position to approach from below lucario with uair, or for him to mess up, and until the stage reaches an position you're less likely to get gimped. It's hard for Lucario to Aura Sphere effectively on Rainbow cruise do to the horrible layout of the stage for him. And gimping you on the stage is difficult after the pendulum phase, whenit basically turns into a walkoff. Speaking of that section, starting on the pendulum phase and going on until right before it returns to the boat, you can kill Lucario at ridiculously low percents. He's more susceptible to vertical kills than horizontal, due to his floatiness, so going for an usmash/uthrow here can get you an early stock. But yeah, lucario's ability to camp/projectile spam on RC is for the most part destroyed. His aerial game is still a problem, but isnt as bad as, say, meta knight or wario. Or marth >.>

Jungle Japes. It'll be really difficult for us to kill you vertically on this stage, and I've heard a lot about how japes is a good lucario stage. However a smart olimar against lucario on japes will camp the right side and the middle platform. Falling in the water in japes on the right side forces us to come out from the left with little time to pluck pikmin before we have to sheild your attacks. So the main thing about japes is that we'll... just be camping extra hard like we always do lol.

Frigate Orpheon: Most likely your best counterpick against us. Keep in mind i dont have much matchup experience against lucario on this stage, so this is theorycraft. lucario has a good time gimping olimar, and that's made a lot easier off the right side, of course. Frigate DOES spawn us extra purple pikmin, which are amazing in the matchup, and extra yellow (although yellows arent as good against lucario as they are in other matchups), i dont think the purples are enough to make the stage anything more than bad in this matchup.

Halberd: Correct me if i'm wrong, but lucario dies off the top easier than most characters because of his floatiness, right? Halberd's low ceiling allows olimar to kill lucario with an usmash from 80% to 100% (depending on color) and a little more for uthrow (blue or purple) probably our best stage for this matchup, to be honest.

( had to keep myself from flaming Ledge_g2 >.< )

 

[Aurasmash14]

I can keep the Olimar discussion going myself since I actually play Olimar so it's not a big deal.

.

*looks at the size of posts* i dont think you'll need to P-4.

 

[Player-4]

*looks at the size of posts* i dont think you'll need to P-4.

Hilt is a good man, and really knows what he's talking about.

I could probably wrap up this discussion pretty soon.

 

[Ledge_g2]

@-Hilt-: i think your a respected smash bros player, but i am just saying what i think about those stages, both lucario and olimar are my mains. the stages i suggested were just points for the stages. I never said that oli was bad on pirate ship, i just gave two points about the stage. such as lucario wont get any disadvantage by falling in the water while oli will. also i didnt say RC was oli worst level in all situations, i said that it was his general worst stage (which from what ive read on the olimar boards it is). and as an oli player i love playing on norfair, as a lucario player its good. im pretty much weighing up my liking of each stage. also on haunted mansion just remember oli's pikmin latches go through the walls, that was a point i forgot about.
Im sorry if i sounded blunt about these stages being absolute counter picks but thats not what i was trying to do, Im just trying to sugest some points about them.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

@-Hilt-: i think your a respected smash bros player, but i am just saying what i think about those stages, both lucario and olimar are my mains. the stages i suggested were just points for the stages. I never said that oli was bad on pirate ship, i just gave two points about the stage. such as lucario wont get any disadvantage by falling in the water while oli will. also i didnt say RC was oli worst level in all situations, i said that it was his general worst stage (which from what ive read on the olimar boards it is). and as an oli player i love playing on norfair, as a lucario player its good. im pretty much weighing up my liking of each stage. also on haunted mansion just remember oli's pikmin latches go through the walls, that was a point i forgot about.
Im sorry if i sounded blunt about these stages being absolute counter picks but thats not what i was trying to do, Im just trying to sugest some points about them.

no, no you're fine. you stated your opinion and that's okay. There's just a few things I disagreed with, such as olimar not being able to adapt to stages. Sorry if what I posted seemed... elitist lol. Or seeming like one of those members that look down on the people with fewer post counts >.>

As for mansion, staying on the far right or left side, behind the pillars and camping is a bad idea. In fact, staying right at the edge on ANY stage, ESPECIALLY against lucario, is a bad idea. Olimar's proneness to getting gimped is made much worse due to this, and once Lucario gets olimar off stage, it's very difficult for oli to live afterwards. This just makes things easier. Olimar's best hope in mansion is to use the structure to live longer, however lucario can take advantage of the cramped spaces a bit easier. Lucario isnt going to try to out camp you on ANY stage, including mansion, so the fact that pikmin go through the pillars, isnt as amazing as it originally seems. Not to mention, most of your kills against lucario are going to want to come vertically, which is made very difficult in mansion, due to both its high stage ceiling as well as the building's ceilings.

As for Rainbow Cruise being olimar's worst stage in general.... it kinda isnt. >.> The oli boards are kind of biased towards different stages being worse for him lol. Rainbow Cruise, Frigate, and Japes are all considered olimar's three worse stages, each for entirely different reasons and against different characters.

Oh, and I'm hearing from our stage discussion thread that our second worst stage to fight lucario on is battlefield O_o I dont have experience of fighting him here, but I would imagine the layout of the stage would be a problem, considering it's small (limiting our ability to run-the-hell-away) and the platforms make for decent setups for your aerials. I'd much rather fight lucario at FD, which I consider to be the best neutral to face him at (which means you guys should probably ban it against us :x )

 

[Player-4]

@Hilt
Well Olimar may not necessarily have a stage that completely bones him over, but which stage do you think is his worst? Because obviously RC isn't like Corneria or Luigi's Mansion, he has good stages and bad stages, so which do you think his is "worst one" and "best one"? You make it sound like RC, Japes, and Frigate aren't even that big of a deal, but they do have some obvious aspects that hinder him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it sound like you're saying.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

It's all positioning and stage control. If olimar can keep up with rainbow cruise to a point to where he cant get gimped, the stage works well for him. Not that it's a GOOD olimar stage, but it's not destructive. If olimar gets knocked off of a platform on RC, two things can happen. Either he lands on another platform, or he falls to his death. This is all dependent to where he is before he got his, so predicting this and staying only where you're safe is extremely important. Also, remember that after the pendulum phase, he no longer has the dangerous problem of getting gimped like in most areas. Granted, playing characters like Meta Knight or DDD here is a bad idea, but against a lot of other characters, the stage isnt a problem. But olimar's camping ability is amazing on the stage, as he is still able to camp just as well, while it's made more difficult for most others.

Frigate Orpheon is bad for him due to the right side on the first phase. However, there's several good points to the stage as well. Say you're fighting a peach, in which all of the good stage qualities for olimar come out against her. Frigate spawns an increase in purple and yellows, which are good against most characters, notably peach. Peach gets screwed by the right side, just like olimar does. In the second phase, peach's inability to gimp olimar off stage well, after knocking him off is a problem for her, as the platforms on the sides will come out to save you. Also, the dip in the second phase works great against facing her. There ARE things that olimar can take advantage on in this stage, and several characters that Frigate works well against (DK, Marth, etc)

Japes is a problem for several reasons. The main reasons are that the high ceiling makes killing vertically next to impossible, and the left side is extremely dangerous as getting knocked off there usually means death, as regards to the right where olimar is able to pop up on the left side after getting dragged by the current. However, I do not consider the water a legitimate reason to call japes a bad stage for oliamr, whether or not the current is going to kill you. If you fall of the stage in almost ANY stage and get edge hogged, you're going to die. Japes' left side is no different, neither is it worse. I've found myself camping the right side several, several times while my opponent's on the middle platform, and when they try to approach, I drop below it, uair through the platform and regrab the ledge without having to use tether.

I would, in my opinion, say that japes is olimar's worst stage, followed by frigate, then rainbow cruise. The reason i'm so casual about talking about them and not acting like they're extreme problems, is because of how much i've played them, and how much i know the stages. I know which ones to ban against what characters, and, for the most part, how to play the stages right so that olimar doesnt get messed over by them. As for his best stage... probably mansion, maybe lylat, and i've been playing around with halberd quite a bit and it's pretty amazing for him.


Sorry, lucario boards, for using this thread for olimar discussion


Just to wrap things up Lucario Boards, my opinion:

Neutrals
Try to take us to Battlefield, if not, yoshi's island
Dont let us take you to FD

Olimar's Counterpick
You'll want to ban either Halberd or Norfair against us, depending on preference and the olimar's opinion on where he's comfortable going. This may be inacurate, and i'm not sure where most olimars take Lucarios. I often just take them to FD and Halberd, as I dont really like Norfair, but I could see how it would work against him.

Your Counterpick
Taking us to either frigate orpheon, japes, or battlefield would be your best idea. All are great for you for different reasons

 

[Player-4]

Sorry, lucario boards, for using this thread for olimar discussion

Don't be! This is exactly the kind of discussion I like to see. So many of the other character boards don't even give a **** about this discussion and I can't ever get anything from them and just have to make a summary from personal knowledge and experience (which isn't much). This whole summary is greatly appreciated.

 

[Aurasmash14]

so are we done with olimar yet?

 

[Player-4]

Yeah I've just been balls tired lately. I'll update this probably later today. You guys can start talking about Yoshi.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Thanks P-4. but ill give someone else the benefit of first info post.

 

[Player-4]

Thanks P-4. but ill give someone else the benefit of first info post.

why? just go.

 

[Metatitan]

not too sure about lucario but i do know he ***** on japes (and yoshi has a tough time killing there)

 

[Poltergust]

Yes, Jungle Japes is bad for Yoshi when fighting Lucario. REALLY bad. Yoshi would most likely ban it.

Uh, I seem to have an easier time fighting Lucario on Halberd. Since Lucario is not much of a vertical killer, it should make it easier for Yoshi.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Start with neutrals please. FD would be a good choice. the lip screws with yoshi's recovery and a bthrow at high damage will send him into an awkward position to recover.

@ p-4 it's because im short on time and reeeeaaaalllyy tired.

@poltergust actually yoshi can easily be footstooled off ledge when the two are fighting in front of the combo cannon.

Edit- oh yeah i forgot, to lucarios dont fight in battlefield and god forbid yoshi's island.

 

[bigman40]

Start with neutrals please. FD would be a good choice. the lip screws with yoshi's recovery and a bthrow at high damage will send him into an awkward position to recover.

@ p-4 it's because im short on time and reeeeaaaalllyy tired.

@poltergust actually yoshi can easily be footstooled off ledge when the two are fighting in front of the combo cannon.

Edit- oh yeah i forgot, to lucarios dont fight in battlefield and god forbid yoshi's island.

A good Yoshi won't get footstooled. Most will probably get it being lucky, and not only that, it's alot of risk tying to do it since you can take a hit from trying.

Also, why is it that you don't want to fight on BF or YI?

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, the whole yoshi bomb glitch thing on YI is kind of annoying where he bombs off the lip -> egg throw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqJcJO16r2g
@ 5:00

 

[Aurasmash14]

A good Yoshi won't get footstooled. Most will probably get it being lucky, and not only that, it's alot of risk tying to do it since you can take a hit from trying.

Also, why is it that you don't want to fight on BF or YI?

The yoshi's i always fight have complete mobility over yoshi's island(it's hard to catch them) plus the glitch and the platform levels the playing field for an otherwise horrible matchup. and on battlefield yoshi has an easy setup for an upair.


oh yeah actually so long as yoshi's timing or momentum is stopped, a footstool may be achieved.

 

[Player-4]

guys **** needs to get done

 

[bigman40]

I'll write up what I think about this MU later tonight. I've played Rayku and gotten alot of exp against my friend.

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi won't get foot-stooled. You are actually better off d-airing him if you are above him. D-air ***** Yoshi. Hard.

I'll wait for what Scatz has to say...

 

[bigman40]

Alright. I'll just go down the Neutrals that I've been on and prefer.

FD: Most likely more favorable for you guys since you don;t have platforms to slow you down. However it's very big and we can use this space to keep a consistant spacing from you guys and fight properly. It's fairly even, but it can be pushed a tad into you guys favor since naturally, you beat our aerials (lack of disjointed-ness hurts us). (55:45 Lucario)

SV: Small stage. Not really good for us since we can't run around/away from your approaches as easily as BF. While it helps us in our killing efforts (by a little), we still would end up getting into more trouble than keeping it even.

The platform is a small saver though since we can pressure you from below (and the fact that our DJ can absorb the first hit decently well) for a kill. We don't want to be above you so this works out for you guys also. Not a hardcore CP, but it gives you guys a decent advantage against a Yoshi that can't get any momentum. (60:40 Lucario)

BF: This stage really depends on who controls the bottom platform. It's much easier to handle because of the fact that the size of this stage isn't that big (inbetween the sizes of SV and FD). You guys have Dair to stop some of our attacks, but if we expect it, we can shield > spotdodge to punish it, then continue to keep pressure on you guys.

At the same time, if we switched places, You guys ultimately decimate us from the fact that Yoshi is horrible from people being under. So we're gonna be looking to avoid this scenario, and find some way to reset the playing field. Slight Advantage to you gives (like 55:45 Yoshi)

YI: I don't play this map, so someone else can evaluate it

Lylat: I don't play this map, so someone else can evaluate it

The only thing that I know would affect us is the fact that sweetspotting the ledge would cause problems. High ceiling would allow us to live fairly long, and also, take away from our killing slightly.

I'll don't really choose the CP's simply cause I'm not confortable finding a valuable stage in which would help out Yoshi. If I get some free time against Rayku, we'll try out the CPs and see how they end up.

 

[Airborne]

Oh yeah, the whole yoshi bomb glitch thing on YI is kind of annoying where he bombs off the lip -> egg throw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqJcJO16r2g
@ 5:00

oh if you hate the bomb slide, wait 'til you see us on pictochat! everything is a slide there that doesn't hurt you! <3 whale! ^.^
and personally i find lylat more useful for the bomb slide than YI; it provides a more useful slide to ledge grab or egdeguarding games imo... then again, i'm not a big fan of yoshi's island since i have bad memories of it XD

 

[Aurasmash14]

Yoshi won't get foot-stooled. You are actually better off d-airing him if you are above him. D-air ***** Yoshi. Hard.

I'll wait for what Scatz has to say...

yeah your right... still footstooling is more satisfying.


on another note, YI is pretty neutral so long as you can handle chasing yoshi around the stage.

Lylat is a bit better, but watch for upair, and a helluva lot of eggs.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Oh come on! step up lucarios!

 

[Alus]

Oh come on! step up lucarios!

yeah srsly...we are not getting anywhere...

 

[Player-4]

Oh come on! step up lucarios!

this^

i personally don't know much about yoshi so i'm hoping everyone else will step up.

his summary is gonna be poop if no one steps up

 

[Aurasmash14]

it's gonna be worse than poop. where are the other lucarios?

 

[phi1ny3]

I have no real clue when it comes to yoshis, we have a new one here, but I haven't played him.

 

[HyperEnergy]

Honestly speaking, I thought this thread was meant to scare participation away when I saw Yoshi in the thread title. =/

 

[tedward2000]

Honestly speaking, I thought this thread was meant to scare participation away when I saw Yoshi in the thread title. =/

And people are asking for lucario's to step it up.
Srsly, other people have done more for this thread then the people supposed to run the place. Dont dish on the other people for doing a better job.
-t2

 

[Aurasmash14]

yeah your right ted. *sigh* fine. P-4 can you postpone the yoshi first? we'll deal with him later lets get to another character.

 

[Player-4]

Honestly speaking, I thought this thread was meant to scare participation away when I saw Yoshi in the thread title. =/

wtf? why would i want to discourage participation. this thread already doesn't have enough as it is >_>
i only brought up yoshi now because he was requested.

yeah your right ted. *sigh* fine. P-4 can you postpone the yoshi first? we'll deal with him later lets get to another character.

sounds good to me.

who do you guys want to talk about?

 

[Aurasmash14]

pick 3 candidates to vote on P-4.

 

[Player-4]

Marth, Dedede, or Falco