Lucario Stage Discussion: Reviewing information

[HyperEnergy]

wtf? why would i want to discourage participation. this thread already doesn't have enough as it is >_>
i only brought up yoshi now because he was requested.

Oh, if so I apologize.

 

[phi1ny3]

ugh, all three are pretty stage worthy to talk about.
I'll go with D3, it's well known, needed, and some of it is easy to discuss (like using Japes).

 

[hough123]

I'd go with D3 as well.

 

[Aurasmash14]

ill go with D3. *surprise surprise*

 

[Player-4]

D3 it is

lets get discussing

 

[MetalMusicMan]

As a DeDeDe main, I have a decent amount of experience with this matchup, so I suppose I will start things.

King DeDeDe can be really dangerous for Lucario on the ledge, especially after a full-stage chain throw. Back-airs can potentially gimp Lucarios that aren't careful, and at the very least will deal quite a bit of damage quickly.

King DeDeDe's worst Neutral Stages in this matchup would have to be Battlefield and Lylat, because of the way the platforms are aligned it can hurt his ability to stop approaches or stop Lucario from running away. Neither of those stages are really "bad" for D3 though, just less preferred against Lucario. If you can fight him on BF or Lylat, do it.

Yoshi's Island, I would also have to slight it just a bit towards Lucario. The platform can make it hard for DeDeDe to use his arials and the stage has walls that aid Lucario's recovery (though not by a lot). The walls do stop D3 from being able to do much sharking at all, though, so that is another disadvantage for the king.

Against Lucario, Smashville and FD are where D3 will want to take you, ideally so that we can chain grab you! A lot of Lucarios seem intimidated by the King's chain grab, but it's really not a big deal so long as you position yourself right.

The best way to avoid getting chain thrown by the King is to position yourself so that, in the event that you are grabbed, DeDeDe has minimal space to throw you. This means making sure that if D3 is facing you, you should have 1-2 chain grab-lengths behind you at the most. If you switch sides or roll behind him, do not try to fight him at close range with a full stage length behind you.

Instead, retreat to the opposite side of the stage and spam or charge aura spheres. When he gets in close, you can easily spot dodge his grab and punish with an up-tilt or a tap or grab of your own. This way, DeDeDe will be forced to approach you. Repeat this process for the majority of the match and you will pressure DeDeDe, rather than have him pressure you. This will work fine even on FD.

You can pressure DeDeDe a bit offstage with fairs, but you will need to be careful because it only takes one airdodge followed by a DeDeDe bair for the penguin to regain control and positioning off the ledge.

Lucario should focus on stage control and positioning, and punish DeDeDe's attempted grabs with A taps or grabs of his own. Forcing the penguin to approach by spamming aura spheres can also be effective, since it will force him into the air where you can easily predict his approach from the ground.

Lucario's down-air is very effective at shield pressure and poking, but spamming it could lead to eating a RAR'd bair from the DeDeDe.

Obviously Lucario's chain-grab with over-b is useful, but it's not a huge ordeal. Sometimes I see Lucarios spam over-b at me in attempts to set this up, but they could just as easily throw in a few up tilts or a grab into well-placed forward-airs and rack up comparable damage.

Smart spacing takes the pressure off of you and puts it on the King, since his speed and lack of a quick a-tap makes it difficult for him to deal with people who are smart enough not to feed him grabs by mindlessly approaching his shield.


Personally I feel that this matchup is with no question 50/50 if the Lucario knows how to play it properly and stage strikes properly.

 

[phi1ny3]

SideB dun chaingrab no more. If you mash, it can be broken out of.
I only really use it so that if they spotdodge, if I don't get the grab, the flame at least shoots them usually, and I can get some AS charge time.
I also think Japes is really good to take them to. Bad CG stuff (except for the middle somewhat), his only move that will be very useful will be bair, at which it will be too stale for a KO move until higher percents. Utilt doesn't kill as high due to the really high ceiling.
I'm pretty much going to go for Japes as a solid CP.

 

[Aurasmash14]

whoah lets not forget about this thread guys. sure the recent changes are interesting but dont forget about these threads.

 

[iRJi]

SideB dun chaingrab no more. If you mash, it can be broken out of.
I only really use it so that if they spotdodge, if I don't get the grab, the flame at least shoots them usually, and I can get some AS charge time.
I also think Japes is really good to take them to. Bad CG stuff (except for the middle somewhat), his only move that will be very useful will be bair, at which it will be too stale for a KO move until higher percents. Utilt doesn't kill as high due to the really high ceiling.
I'm pretty much going to go for Japes as a solid CP.

My suggestion for a stage would be Rainbow Cruise, and Frigate. Frigate makes it easier to abuse his recovery if you knock him off the first form of the stage on the right side., and its a small stage making the chaingrab shorter. As for rainbow cruise, D3 really can't do much there. His air mobility is awful so for 1/3 of the stage he is more worried about trying to stay alive then hit you. Also his aerials other then back air take some startup/ lagg ending. Hes going to run and try to set up in a safe spot.

 

[Player-4]

I really hope you're kidding about taking D3 to RC since its one of D3's better stages and probably our worst. He'll kill you with up-tilt so fast since this stage has one of the lowest ceilings in the game, and his aerials will molest you on this stage. D3 can also infinite CG Lucario on a couple of the formations of RC. If a Lucario CP'd my D3 to RC I would pause the game for about 10 minutes so I could hand write him a thank you note.

 

[iRJi]

really now? I honestly don't have an issue with the map at all. maybe its a east coast thing xD

 

[hough123]

really now? I honestly don't have an issue with the map at all. maybe its a east coast thing xD

I've never had any trouble either, but it does make sense with the ceiling and all.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm gonna take a D3 dumb enough to keep Japes around there. High ceiling means utilt won't be killing, dthrow is nerfed as an overall damage racker and becomes more of a setup, bair is going to be his biggest move here, which means it will be pretty stale and therefore some nice assurance in this, and AS will prolly go up in usefulness on a stage like this.

 

[Player-4]

*releases balloon full of air*

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, RC is normally a meh stage for them, but don't let them take you there, when he gets a dthrow on the first part of the stage he gets the "I'm on a Boat"multiplier and has an infinite, it's the easiest to swallocide there (I know that it's normally situational, but on a stage with a lot of walkoffs and small space, it's easier than it should seem), ftilt covers lots of ground, and bair is amazing. Oh, and low ceiling. I'd say despite some "limited" CG, I'd ban this against more crazier DDDs.

 

[Aurasmash14]

guys come on let's just finish this already.

 

[phi1ny3]

I also like Yoshi's Island, even though you D3 doesn't slide as far for each CG, you live forever on this stage, and have alternate options for recovery. I bet I'm missing some weakpoints, but so far I tried it on Kevin's D3, and it seemed to work well, so I guess I might add that in as a possibility.

 

[Aurasmash14]

lol on how only phil seems to be contributing. (sorry not much experience on D3)

 

[phi1ny3]

I wonder if Fogo still does lucario...
he could help with D3.
I guess we should finish this though and move onto the next char. D3 is somewhat straight forward.

 

[Aurasmash14]

where is P-4? i havent seen him all week.

 

[Player-4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZmjKnuUE3U&feature=related

up the butt charizard!

i'll update this thread soon

 

[Player-4]

Yay it's updated.

Falco is the new topic.

P.S. new art for each character on the front page

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Falco's Best stage is JJ for his mobility and ability to control the stage quite well from the center, and the CG to spike on the left side of the stage. Final Destination is typically the next best stage for Falco where JJ is not useable. It's a great stage as Falco has free rain over people to space them and force approaches. Should situation get tight he can phantasm away to get decent spacing.

Generically, Falco does best on any stage that is relatively flat, and has few platforms for people to avoid his stage control on.

For Neutrals, Yoshi's Island would null Falco's typical playstyle the most.

Of Starters/CPs Lylat cruise would mess Falco up the most.

For Counters, Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, RC, prohibit a lot of his game play. RC probably being the best for messing up lasers and elimnating the phantasm antics.

I dont' know much about where Lucario does well as it seems he can do well just about anywhere in my opinion. I know that Falco outcamps Lucario so any stage that really eliminates Falco's ability to camp would be benefical to Lucario I would say.

Overall, Ban JJ whenever possible; if JJ is not available, ban FD.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Anywhere with a high ceiling.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Frigate rocks against Falco. while it also works for luc. in other words... bring him there! for neutrals, yoshi's island saves us once again.

 

[Player-4]

Lets get this **** going again. I mean "anywhere with a high ceiling"? Yeah no **** Sherlock! C'mon guys!

 

[D. Disciple]

Against Falco you gotta think about a few things. How wide the stage is, the layout of the stage (slopes, obstacles or what not) and of course the ceiling.

Yoshi's Island is an extremely good stage.

Pros - Sloped ground, good enough to avoid the laser camp by crawling and crouching in the middle of the stage and messes up his phantasm if they don't cancel it.

Extremely Wide and a high ceiling. With our horizontal resistance we call survive pretty long on this stage if they can't get an usmash in.

Clingable Walls - Wall Clinging is sweet, especially with the ghost popping up as well. If you see the ghost pop up on the side that you're wall clinging on for recovery if Falco is edgehogging you, you can jump towards it as it descends, You land, you get your up-b back and you can avoid a spike from Falco as well, since they'll assume you'll DI towards the stage from the wall jump.

Can't find a lot cons that would benefit Falco.

Falco's Best stage is JJ for his mobility and ability to control the stage quite well from the center, and the CG to spike on the left side of the stage. Final Destination is typically the next best stage for Falco where JJ is not useable. It's a great stage as Falco has free rain over people to space them and force approaches. Should situation get tight he can phantasm away to get decent spacing.

Generically, Falco does best on any stage that is relatively flat, and has few platforms for people to avoid his stage control on.

For Neutrals, Yoshi's Island would null Falco's typical playstyle the most.

Of Starters/CPs Lylat cruise would mess Falco up the most.

For Counters, Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, RC, prohibit a lot of his game play. RC probably being the best for messing up lasers and elimnating the phantasm antics.

I would really take Falco to Brinstar, sure the acid could rack up damage, it's pretty small to keep laser phantasm camping at bay for a bit. But Falco can still do some other stuff on us, and if he's hitting any of the obstacles on those stages, that just delays his hit and we can mistime when to dodge a fsmash or usmash. Also if he's smart, he'll stay at one side of the stage, and spam his lasers from different heights to make it a bit harder for us to approach him. Can we gimp on this stage? Yes we can. But this still goes in his favor since he can still kill us faster than we can kill him. He just has better stage control on Brinstar.

Frigate - We can own him hardcore on this stage.

I dont' know much about where Lucario does well as it seems he can do well just about anywhere in my opinion. I know that Falco outcamps Lucario so any stage that really eliminates Falco's ability to camp would be benefical to Lucario I would say.

Not always about camping, like I said we can approach him by crawling towards him. If he phantasm, position yourself a bit to determine where the distance is. If he's on the other side of FD for example close to the edge, and he doesn't cancel his phantasm, it will go halfway across the stage with landing lag. So position yourself, where he's getting ready to phantasm, you can utilt him or just shield and turn around grab him or if you're really good at anticipating when they are gonna phantasm, you can roll backwards, then grab him and bthrow closer to the edge, shoot a bas and start to approach him again.

Overall, Ban JJ whenever possible; if JJ is not available, ban FD.

Yeah **** this stage

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh, another thing, on Yoshi's Island the Shy guys can inhibit camping (especially SH camping) which aids a little bit when you want to approach.
JJ is insane for falco, don't go there unless you like a lot of pew pews.
I really like Frigate, not just because of the first more gimpable phase of the stage on the right, but the layout is kind of close, and on the second part (the one that has a dip and a platform in the middle), that gives you some cover against lasers (once again, not a lot, but enough to help).

 

[Aurasmash14]

Once again its the same stages, YI and Frigate. lol.

 

[Aurasmash14]

(ill double post... please forgive. ) it seems like this thread is dead. P-4 if your reading this i think it s time to close it..

 

[iRJi]

Its not time to close this yet. Its a good thread. Let it rock for a while, and we will get back to it.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I know that but P-4 doesnt come here much anymore. me thinks he got hooked on pokemon. (P-4 if your busy with other stuff can i run it pweeezzzeeee???)

 

[Player-4]

lolololol I think this thread is helpful too but no one ever participates. We get maybe 1 or 2 good inputs per character topic then I have to wing the rest on the summary . If more people get involved I'll take better care of this thread.

@aura if you want to help me run this, go heckle people and get their *** in this thread

Also I am hooked on teh pokemanz. If anyone ever wants to play my just PM me.

Edit:

If you guys could get Timbers to sticky this it might draw more attention and feedback.

 

[Browny]

Timbers isnt the mod anymore

apparently whoevers doing it now doesnt want anyone to know, which is ********. perfect example above. What are we supposed to do, just wait until the mod decides to check that post?

ugh

 

[iRJi]

Timbers isnt the mod anymore

apparently whoevers doing it now doesnt want anyone to know, which is ********. perfect example above. What are we supposed to do, just wait until the mod decides to check that post?

ugh

They should make me Mod for the Lucario boards.=D. At least I am on the boards everyday lol

 

[hough123]

They should make me Mod for the Lucario boards.=D. At least I am on the boards everyday lol

I am too, and I have more posts than you =3
Yet I'm too nice to close threads =(

 

[iRJi]

I am too, and I have more posts than you =3
Yet I'm too nice to close threads =(

True, But I might have more experience. I also have been here since the beginning of brawl, and just didn't post all that much until recent Christmas. I also have been a mod for several other forums. xP

I was one of those people who were like "The boards suck, and they are not helpful" but since I know they are not helpful, i decided to make them helpful =D. Can't you tell by how hard i'm working on it XD

 

[hough123]

True, But I might have more experience. I also have been here since the beginning of brawl, and just didn't post all that much until recent Christmas. I also have been a mod for several other forums. xP

It was a joke D'=

"=3"=Joke post.

 

[phi1ny3]

Trust me guys, post count doesn't always mean authority necessarily (I've seen pros with only like Smash Child status, and people who are smash lords in post count but can sound like absolute scrubs).
I think I've said what we can do vs. falco, but I wants to hear other people's input, one obvious thing to get out of the way is that this time, don't pick JJ, he's a beast camper.

 

[hough123]

Trust me guys, post count doesn't always mean authority necessarily (I've seen pros with only like Smash Child status, and people who are smash lords in post count but can sound like absolute scrubs).
I think I've said what we can do vs. falco, but I wants to hear other people's input, one obvious thing to get out of the way is that this time, don't pick JJ, he's a beast camper.

It was a ing joke T.T

Also I agree, no JJ for Failco.