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~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

Fizzle

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Does anyone else find themself constantly spacing with fsmash in this matchup? I feel like I'll get punished for using it so often, but it's rare that any of the Marths I play find a good way to counter it. I guess they could stand outside the range and use Shield Breaker (which I'm pretty sure outranges fsmash), but that's easy to see coming. I mean, it's not like it's the only thing I use, but it just seems to be my move of choice against Marth.

Is this useful for anyone else, or are the Marths I play just bad?
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Just don't make a habit on rolling behind Marth. It only takes him 4 frames to hit you with dancing blades, even if you are behind him. <_<

You are right about Marth having to commit to his moves, though. Dtilt is the only thing he really has that is incredibly good to force an opponent's action.
Thing is, you can shield and punish dancing blade because this move also has lag, even if he stops mid-combo.

and as a bonus, you can roll between the hits.

Marth's Dtilt is awesome safe though, that's true.
 

Emblem Lord

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This one time...um like..I d-tilted alot vs Azen and like..umm he rolled behind me and like umm I did Dancing Blade and like...I loled.

True story.
 

betterthanbonds9

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Does anyone else find themself constantly spacing with fsmash in this matchup? I feel like I'll get punished for using it so often, but it's rare that any of the Marths I play find a good way to counter it. I guess they could stand outside the range and use Shield Breaker (which I'm pretty sure outranges fsmash), but that's easy to see coming. I mean, it's not like it's the only thing I use, but it just seems to be my move of choice against Marth.

Is this useful for anyone else, or are the Marths I play just bad?
no, it's the move with the most range that isn't aurasphere so it's also by far my most used move one the ground in this matchup. I am in need of testing lucarios fsmash vs marth's in terms of range and now i think I'll try sheildbreaker vs fsmash too.

behavior: only 1 person i know mains marth, so i can't really give anything about an overall behavior.

rec stage: anything flat. so #1 i say smashville. Here's why. Compared to FD, smashville has more room on the left and right which makes it harder to recover for marth with his not so good horizontal recovery. it does have a platform, but I've never seen anybody use it like they would a platform on battlefield. Plus, smashville is imo the best stage in brawl.

FD is still a good stage because of the obvious flatness of it, and in fact could be #1 because it's far easier to survive a cross stage fsmash from marth.

Out of the counterpicks luigi's mansion is probably the best because lucario can survive for quite awhile there, but FD or Smashville should be considered more imo for this matchup than smashville.

on a side note: What stage would marth want to use? Yoshi's Island? Battlefield? lylat? green greens? Norfair? This would be good to know for the "how to win" section. I doubt a marth would pick FD when up against us.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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This one time...um like..I d-tilted alot vs Azen and like..umm he rolled behind me and like umm I did Dancing Blade and like...I loled.

True story.
Still, have you seen Metaknight's dtilt? WTF I had to test the priority of that move against Samus's dtilt in slow motion and it must activate in like 2 frames!
 

Emblem Lord

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MK's d-tilt comes out on frame 4 and slightly outranges Marth's d-tilt.
 

Kitamerby

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Does anyone else find themself constantly spacing with fsmash in this matchup? I feel like I'll get punished for using it so often, but it's rare that any of the Marths I play find a good way to counter it. I guess they could stand outside the range and use Shield Breaker (which I'm pretty sure outranges fsmash), but that's easy to see coming. I mean, it's not like it's the only thing I use, but it just seems to be my move of choice against Marth.

Is this useful for anyone else, or are the Marths I play just bad?
Fsmash beats out pretty much everything Marth has. I'm also **** sure the disjointed hitbox is much longer than Shieldbreaker.

Fsmash is really one of our only saving graces in this matchup that keeps us from being completely outclassed.
 

Timbers

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Thing is, you can shield and punish dancing blade because this move also has lag, even if he stops mid-combo.

and as a bonus, you can roll between the hits.

Marth's Dtilt is awesome safe though, that's true.
I think you're vulnerable for 10 frames after rolling. If Marth is just chillin' or anticipating a roll, you get dancing blades to the face. Just saying. Marth is probably one of the best characters at covering his back, and it's kind of unwritten law to not make it a habit to roll into people =P

Marth's stage is Battlefield A.K.A. Marthland.
 

Browny

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rolling into marth isnt threatening... rolling into G&W, snake, DK results in instant death. hell a lot of characters have far more threatening moves on an anticipated roll than anything marth does. ike also does a pretty good job with his fsmash hitting way behind him lol.

and why would you need to roll anyway. thats what Aura sphere and fsmash were designed for
 

Timbers

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Those examples you mentioned are only going to work based on guessing games. Marth actually has a surefire way to punish you, instead of just hoping they're going to roll into a random smash.
 

betterthanbonds9

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rolling into marth isnt threatening... rolling into G&W, snake, DK results in instant death. hell a lot of characters have far more threatening moves on an anticipated roll than anything marth does. ike also does a pretty good job with his fsmash hitting way behind him lol.

and why would you need to roll anyway. thats what Aura sphere and fsmash were designed for
dancing blades>>smashes from those characters

I'm way more worried about getting ***** constantly by his >B than i ever would be from taking a couple dsmashes. And Ike's fsmash doesn't hit THAT far behind him, you basically have to be grinding with ike for his fsmash to hit from behind him. Dancing blades is just that awesome/annoying/consistently available.
 

Browny

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please dont tell me you would rather take a dancing blade, instead of a G&w dsmash, which both do the same damage, and KO'ing about 110% earlier
 

Timbers

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GaW has to predict your roll to actually hit you with the dsmash. Marth can simply react to the roll and punish. GaW dsmash is fast but not that fast.
 

Emblem Lord

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This is what we call "option select traps" in fighting game terms.

Marth uses a poke to force a reaction and no matter what you do he is safe.

Worst case scenario for him is that you get out of the trap unharmed, but the odds are heavily in his favor that he will damage you.
 

betterthanbonds9

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please dont tell me you would rather take a dancing blade, instead of a G&w dsmash, which both do the same damage, and KO'ing about 110% earlier
wait, you agree with me? What? I'm saying that DB scares me more than the dsmash overall, and if your telling me that i should rather take the dsmash, I'm very confused.

But i think this is just a grammar mishap, and yes, the DB takes something like 4 frames to start. Of the smashes you listed, even G&W's dsmash, although potent, isn't THAT fast. You can get out of the roll and shield as long as you have ~11 frames to go, that's enough time for marth to finish an attack and start DB most of the time.
 

Timbers

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Quotes taken from Lucario vs Marth thread:

One major advantage Luc has on Marth is his Fsmash. Especially at higher %. He can pretty much change his game dramatically and has an advantage in the higher %, forcing Marth to play a very crucial defensive game.
Yay, lets have people who main both rush in and be annoying!

Well, I'll just say that I main both, and IMO, Lucario's recovery, while somewhat situational, is actually pretty good on half of tourney viable stages. I would say Marth>Lucario, just for a generic score (u can't always rely on walls, if there aren't any), but certainly not Marth>>Lucario. Second, I think I've said this in the Lucario boards, but Lucarios are a decent fight, but still have an overall slight disadvantage. While Lucario's do have a projectile, Marth's have many ways of dealing with it. I would also say that while it is safe to say Lucario's airgame = Marth's airgame, I think it sways ever so slightly in Marth's favor (just because of that range advantage, otherwise, it's a good tie, although I will say I like Lucario's airgame quite a bit). Ground game, both have their strengths, and Marth's have to watch out for fast tilts that rival their own in speed. In the specials, Marth has a strong contending tool, Side B, which punishes defenders, sets up a wall (don't say "roll behind" is the solution, because unless u follow up with it quick, Marth will come around with a punish behind), and restores decay. Lucario's Side B does punish defenders, and combos well, and acts as a somewhat decent kill, but shies just a bit from utility. Lucario's grab game definitely is better than Marth, and his smashes IMO definitely hurt Marth. Overall, Marth is just a little bit more of an advantage, but Lucario is a hard fight.
 

Timbers

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Lucario boards needs to figure out some option select type **** for Lucario.
It's called aurasphere. :bee:

I really can't even begin to explain how well it can screw with a player.

Well I could, but I'm far too lazy to actually do a write-up on it. <_<

Maybe in the future though. Like you said in the thread you made (which was well constructed, nicely done) players are using these fundamentals without even fully knowing it. I'm not sure if an article regarding it's (aurasphere) uses is necessary, but I might write something later out of boredom. Another member here, Milln, brushed up on it, but he never really elaborated on it's potential.

Unfortunately, Luc's make-up prevents him from successfully capitalizing on his opponents' reactions via melee. Not nearly as well as Marth or MK, at least. Relatively slow moveset and subpar movement/aerial speed. His zoning is going to be primarly related to aurasphere.
 

Browny

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oh noes kirbys time

caution is advised before asking kirbys mainers what they think of matchups, they can get a little crazy.
 

Pentaoku

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Well apparently Kirby has a jab-lock combo, but it doesn't look like it's a real big deal, since:

1. It looks as if it only works at really low percents.
2. It looks very difficult to actually pull off.
3. It's very situational.
4. Apparently you can tech the nair.

Really all I can say about the jab lock thingy is don't get u-aired at like 0%?

IF KIRBY COPIES AURA SPHERE: It will have more power than ours at lower percents, but ours is more powerful at higher percents. I forgot the exact numbers but it was like 100%ish that ours is stronger. Their % does not effect the copied AS's knockback or damage.

While Kirby's air game is pretty good, I'd say Lucario's is better. Their back air is a fundamental move, but it's not as good as DeDeDe's. Though it has less landing lag if they hit the ground too early.

Lucario can camp Kirby with Aura Spheres (unless they copy it), and space with f-smash.

If you're paying attention, you're not going to get combo'd by up-tilt, so just DI and/or air dodge to avoid further up-tilts. Final Cutter isn't terribly slow, so don't let it catch you off guard if they happen to be using it. I forgot if the blade clashes with Aura Sphere, but at higher percents I'm pretty sure Aura Sphere will eat the blade and then continue on.

Kirby can attempt f-throw->f-air->f-throw->f-air->f-throw at low percents too, but it's not a real chain grab so if you're paying attention you can escape the regrab, but it's not likely you'll avoid getting at least 2/3 kicks of the f-air.

Kirby's got rather powerful smashes too, with awkward hitboxes... F-smash can send you vertically or horizontally depending on where it hits you, and so can down-smash. Like Fox and Falco, if you get hit by the back-side of up smash, the knockback (and damage?) is reduced... I think...

Kirby's down air can lead into things such as forward/down smash or f-tilt, so you should be wary of that. Catching Kirby with an up-tilt seems to work fine, but don't let them do a surprise Stone attack.

When Kirby plans to KO you, watch out for all his smashes (which you can outspace I believe), and his hammer. Mainly the aerial hammer, since it's quicker and spins twice. And of course, don't forget his aerials. Up-air doesn't have amazing kill power, but it still can kill you. Down air pseudo-meteors you, but the main kill move off stage will be Kirby's back-air.

Kirby has an easier time gimping you because he has great recovery, but so long as you're not recovery from below, you can probably just air dodge + fair your way back to the stage. As for gimping him, you'll probably only have the chance if you make him do Final Cutter in a situation where he must grab the edge, in which case, edge hogging will work. However the trouble is getting him into a situation where he actually has to do that.

That's my bit of info, feel free to bash whatever you disagree with, or point out any mistakes.
 

Samuelson

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Watch out for his Down B. Kirby mains are good at using this and ive fell for it plenty of times (go ahead laugh at me). They will use their Down B and then pop out of it before you hit them and use their hammer so never get right under them when you send them high in the air. Watch out for the Fthrow>Utilt or Usmash combo...it works pretty good. His dash attack will hit you 5 million and it's way better then it was in melee so don't get hit by that. Kirby has a pretty good combo game and don't underestimate him, he's stronger then he looks. His Usmash and Fsmash are both good killing moves as well as his Down B and Hammer.
 

Kasai

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Ohhh, finally a character I have some first hand experience with, on the account that he's my secondary (points to sig).

Basically, Kirby doesn't play anything like he did in melee and he's been buffed in basically every way shape and form.


General (How Kirby Plays and general tips to counter his style)

Air
He, like a few other characters, is perfectly fit into the new physics system because his main combat zone is the air. I'll say it again, Kirby mains, myself included, love getting people in the air and chaining aerials together. Like Lucario, his aerials chain very nicely (all of them, uair >uair> fair>fair>bair and all the different possibilities in between using those 3 aerials) and he won't be afraid to WoP/FoP you. His multiple jumps allow him to stay on you and also allow him to place himself nicely for chains. In addition, he can also stall through air dodges and off the edges, so be careful. Just because you dodge a bair doesn't mean another one isn't coming in the exact same location. Now, he may have a very good aerial game but he does lack range that can rival with lucario (although his feet are disjointed hitboxes for some moves). Even in the air, if spaced and timed right, Lucario can come out ahead but, again, you have to be careful. Try to avoid juggling and keep the off stage chasing to a minimum.

Ground
On the ground, Kirby isn't as much of a pushover as some people might think and a few of his moves pack a nasty punch. Fsmash and hammer can both kill pretty early and fsmash is has quite nice range. In addition to this, almost all of the popular ground moves are set ups for aerial chases and combos. To list a few: utilt, dtilt, ftilt, uthrow, fthrow, dthrow, dash attack, usmash (at low %s). Almost every single move he has can be followed by something. His throws lead into combos at low %s. (Watch out for fthrow > uair > fsmash (aka the Gonzo Combo)) As well as dthrow > utilt > utilt .......
Again, use your range and keep him back. He's light and dies early but don't underestimate his killing potential. If he reserves his kill moves for killing, he can knock lucario out before his aura becomes a huge factor.

Gimping
Kirby is, more or less, a quite capable gimper. With the multiple jumps, the semi spike dair, the Wop/Fop and Kirbycide/Starshoot, he can pretty effectively stop quite a few character's recovery. Lucario's main flaw here is the startup time on his upB. A decent Kirby can most likely, chain a few bairs and get Lucario to a point where he won't be able to recover if the Lucario isn't smart with upB usage. You have to be careful and try to keep a sense of where Kirby is because if you don't, you shouldn't expect to recover.
Don't really try to chase Kirby out, ESPECIALLY if he's at high %s. It's overly easy to inhale a foolish edgegarder-to-be and just give up a stock to knock one off the opponent.


Important Kirby Strats/Moves

Throw Combos
Luckily for us, Lucario is floaty and isn't very susceptible to throw combos but they still pose somewhat of a threat especially against Kirby. If nothing else, his throws leave you in a position to be easily chased and followed by an aerial pursuit. I'll list the major throw combos:

Fthrow > uair > Fsmash/utilt - This one isn't as bad as what he can do to heavier characters but it still sets up for an aerial chase if he choses to do the utilt. It's only a threat when at very low %s but it will get you to about 35% right off the bat.

Dthrow > utilt > utilt > utilt . . . -This one can be avoided by Lucario (IIRC) by simply jumping and not trying to land. If you don't jump, you'll get juggled by a few utilts and then followed into the air.

Uthrow > fair - not much to it, just a small aerial chase could happen.


Other combos
dtilt > fsmash - dtilt trips, be careful.

Fast falled nair > Jabs - watch out for this, his Nair auto cancels and leads right into his jabs and it's an easy way to get a lot of damage if you aren't smart about it. Avoidable but be careful.



Stage

I'm not going to go into specifics because, to be honest, Kirby doesn't really have many stages, if any, that really destroy his game. At the same time, he doesn't have many that buff his game. As a general rule of thumb, I would avoid stages with platforms simply because it allows him to get under you and lead with an aerial. I suppose a flat stage where you can camp would be ok...at the same time he could always steal aura sphere and camp back in addition to just flying over the spheres.


Overall Match up

I would say 50:50 even.

Aerials
Kirby = Lucario

Ground
Lucario > Kirby

Camping potential
Kirby > Lucario (he can fly over and spam back equally as well, in addition he has his own projectile)

Recovery/Gimping
Kirby > Lucario

Killing power/survivability
Lucario > Kirby


Edit: One last thing I forgot regarding Kirby's aerial hammer.

Fear the second swing!!!!
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Kirby is outranged and outprioritized by most of Lucario's attacks. However, he will murder you if he gets you off the stage, even if you're good with reverse DT. Juggling him is also not a good idea because his down B really hurts/kills your shield.
 

Browny

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i dont think anyone underestimates light characters killing potential anymore. hell the lightest characters also happen to have some of the strongest KO moves in the game (rest, thunder, G&W dsmash, shuttle loop, fox usmash) :/
 

tedward2000

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Woo kirby some one I have ample amounts of experience with.

(cough...alright review time)

Kirby, the loud mouth original back from the 64, and hasn't missed a beat.
When ever Dreamland is in trouble, you can expect Kirby to come in a save the day.

His most widely known talent...uses his mouth???
Kirby's special ability in all of his games was the ability to suck a enemy into his massive vortex of a mouth (larger then his body when fully opened) and turn that poor soul into a collectible hat, giving Kirby the power of his last meal.

The same eating power remains the same in brawl.
The Brawl Kirby is much faster, in the ways of movement, and attack number and speed. Majority of his moves are slightly weaker from his Melee version, but theres more hits per second and faster start up. Meaning, it won't be 1 hit ko, it'll be more like 27th hit KO. With fast hits, and strong smashes, this little ball can rack up damage fast and kill and a scary time. Kirby has no problem with killing potential, he might be little, but don't take him lightly.
His jumping hasn't changed, he still floats after his first jump. And his infamous Up-B and Down-B are still working more then ever.

Newest additions in the Kriby move department, are Aerial Side B, and Dash Attack. The new Aerial Side B, follows suite to the ground one, a simple swing, but because its a massive hammer Kirby will continue with a back swing. Massive damage and Knockback. His dash attack is now copied from his NES version when He would suck up a yo-yo bot thing. He runs, and spins on his head, while his legs are outreached. Very good dash attack, but a bit on the short side.

His sucking power remains the same. But take note that his Lucario Hat, doesn't get a aura boost, but it's power is equal to a 80% Lucario right off the bat.

This match is in lucario's favor by sheer range, weight and power. Kirby's not a push over, dont get me wrong, but Lucario has more knacks that tilt the scales to his side of the match.
-t2
 

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Jeepy Sol

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I can't test u-air to d-air, because I don't have a second person, but I just tested f-air/b-air to our f-air. Kirby's F-air outranges ours. The first two kicks miss, but the third one hits. B-air also outranges our f-air.

Just by looking at the two moves seperately, it looks like his u-air outranges our d-air, but it's hard to tell.

And thanks for the chart. :D
 

betterthanbonds9

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I can't test u-air to d-air, because I don't have a second person, but I just tested f-air/b-air to our f-air. Kirby's F-air outranges ours. The first two kicks miss, but the third one hits. B-air also outranges our f-air.

Just by looking at the two moves seperately, it looks like his u-air outranges our d-air, but it's hard to tell.

And thanks for the chart. :D
but as long as lucario gets his fair in before kirby's 3rd kick, kirby gets a faceful of aura right?
 

Jeepy Sol

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Kirby's first two kicks have about the same range as Lucario's f-air, so I think it comes down to priority. I remember reading somewhere that Kirby's shoes were disjointed hitboxes, but I don't know if that is true.
 

betterthanbonds9

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Kirby's first two kicks have about the same range as Lucario's f-air, so I think it comes down to priority. I remember reading somewhere that Kirby's shoes were disjointed hitboxes, but I don't know if that is true.
i know his fists are, iirc the rapid punches can stop BAS, brb, gonna check then ill edit with the result.

EDIT: ok, here's the info. kirby's rapid fists stop BAS most of the time. the only way they get through is if it takes a weird path along the curve. It works about 50% of the time when lucario is at 155%. In order to get it through, once you are at ~50% just hold the AS a bit longer and it'll go through every time.
 

MK26

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Kirby's first two kicks have about the same range as Lucario's f-air, so I think it comes down to priority. I remember reading somewhere that Kirby's shoes were disjointed hitboxes, but I don't know if that is true.
They aren't exactly disjointed, but they have insanely high priority, and will cancel or beat out just about anything that isn't disjointed. I've seen a well-timed u-tilt cancel out a Wolf f-smash...and the Kirby was facing toward Wolf.

To the actual matchup...It seems pretty even to me. Don't underestimate Kirby on the ground. Don't kid yourself into thinking you can beat Kirby in the air. Don't get gimped. Don't get eaten.

Lucario falls slowly, so he doesn't need to fear the u-tilt chain. However, that makes him bait for a u-smash kill (kills Falco off the top sub 100%). Again, don't underestimate Kirby's killing power.

Double team is actually a pretty feasable FoP counter, but make sure you don't go the wrong way. And n-air is useless, but you didn't hear it from me. Unless it's for Kirby's (unbreakable) footstool to jab lock combo, which you have a right to fear. And yes, brawl has combos.

That is all for now. No rating as of yet.
 
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