~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[tedward2000]

Jeepy, you used the entire Review this time!
Im happy.

Ill have some useful info on kirby later today. Bit Busy at the moment.
-t2

 

[Jeepy Sol]

<3's t2's reviews.

The only reason I sometimes don't use it all is because, even though the info is good, it's not really intro-y. >.<

Really good info so far, guys. Keep it up!

 

[Timbers]

Kirby vs Lucario from Kirby boards:

-What specific troubles do you have with Lucario as a Kirby player?
Lucario's aerial range and priority, also i played a very campy Lucario and it was very very hard to approach, of course i took Lucario's power and camped back but Kirby isn't really a campy character so it wasnt as effective.

Does Lucario shut down any of your game?
Not really, approaching requires a little more skill but not enough for it to make things difficult
However, if the Lucario is campy and can space well Kirby will have a tough time playing the match since he's a passive-aggressive type of character

-What advantages do you feel Lucario has against you?
Like i said, his aerial range and his neutral A is a *****

-What disadvantages do you feel Lucario has against you?
Can be combo'd and gimped very very easily

-Is there any method or strategic goal you would use to win this match?
Get lucario off the edge and spam Bair or wait for an upB recovery from Lucario and stagespike him (inhale, spit under the stage, Bair into the stage or upB spike.

I would greatly appreciate it if players of the board would give their input on the matches, thanks!

lucario's dair shuts down kirby's uair and his extremely fast roll dodge can make an aerial approach difficult, but it is still probably kirby's best bet because a ground approach will get stifled by aura sphere and lucario's long range. his aura sphere can be annoying. at higher percents lucarios fsmash and dair can kill kirby at very low percents. but lucarios be warned: of all abilities to copy, lucario's is probably the #1 most useful for kirby (at least top 5). HOWEVER, kirby should never copy a lucario at high % because lucario can immediately use dair after kirby swallows him and connect with it (which is bull). also i would say lucario has the advantage on the ground for the most part.

lucario is not that heavy but still somewhat comboable...however lucario probably would have a hard time comboing kirby. umm lucario can never gimp kirby but kirby could somewhat easily gimp lucario, which is lucario's worst nightmare because he will never reach a high percent and therefore never reach a higher power level (probably over 9000). utilt and bair out of shield **** lucario. utilt is instant and sets up combos. also, i would say kirby has the advantage in the air for the most part, epecially if lucario is on the ground.

as kirby, i would approach from the air, probably with bair for the most part but some dair, fair, and even nair. i would go for throws at low percents and even somewhat at higher percents. and i would try to get a low percent gimp or maybe hammer kill. i would be conscious of dair at all times. i would use copy as it is extremely helpful but ONLY if the lucario does not know to use dair immediately after being swallowed.

also, know that kirby punishes spot dodgers with his dash attack. countering kirby's ground approach with an attack, and not a dodge, is your best bet.

overall i would say the matchup is pretty even...if i lost to a lucario i would feel like the player genuinely had more skill than me, and not that i lost due to a bad matchup.

Aurasphere in my opinion is the one move that i will take without hesitiation b/c it makes Kirby the ultimate camper. u can sit and camp the aurasphere all day and when ur approached Kirby's speed and high priority moves let him quickly build some space to start camping again. Its a great way to counter campy Lucario's

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmm...interesting. Yes...Bwahaha!

Sooo...does Kirby have any really good vertical KO moves, other than his up smash? I mean attacks that have a very high chance of hitting you. Not moves like the hammer where sometimes it'll hit you, but not very often. Anyways, what are some good stages against him?

 

[Trela]

I happen to play a Kirby mainer. He isnt that great, and he only likes to spam upB and Kirbyside a lot. He also likes his smash attacks =0

I seem to beat Kirbys on grounded stages.

 

[Timbers]

Hmmm...interesting. Yes...Bwahaha!

Sooo...does Kirby have any really good vertical KO moves, other than his up smash? I mean attacks that have a very high chance of hitting you. Not moves like the hammer where sometimes it'll hit you, but not very often. Anyways, what are some good stages against him?

You're going to be dying to the fsmash most of the time. Which is still bad. It packs a wallop and can be combo'd into with his dair.

EDIT: Someone had posted on the Link thread regarding the matchup.

just thought I would mention the jab cancel...most links never jab cancel into a F-smash or F-tilt.

Links almost always jab cancel into a U-tilt for juggling.

Links can also jab cancel into a grab but it isn't seen as much.

Lylat cruise is just as bad of a stage for link as it is lucario because the tilting stage makes using projectiles hard and with Links terrible recovery a tilting stage could be our doom.

Most links are liking Yoshi's island at the moment so don't go there.

Moving stages are bad for link EXCEPT FOR RAINBOW CRUISE. Honestly look at the link boards and you will see Link is really good on this stage, one of his best, because of good stage control with bombs. he can throw them far and with the arc of his arrow's and mobility of his boomerang your just asking for it if you think Link will **** himself over with a bad recovery.

Link can also gimp (gale gaurd) *cough* but it really isn't that useful against a character like lucario.

Link also has a shield and while it isn't that useful, if you start to spam sphere's he will use it just to piss you off.

zair has excellent range and can out prioritize sphere's Links can even perform zair with a bomb in hand so they can combo. Lucario isn't that short. (He's not pikachu or olimar or iceclimbers or metaknight or kirby) so must link will easily be able to hit you with a zair. Maybe not as easy as a DDD but still pretty easily.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

OK, I have enough info for Behavior and How to Win. I would now like to discuss Recommended Stages and Fundamental Moves.

GO, GO!

 

[Timbers]

Bair and dair.

<_<

and apparently Kirby's love to steal Luc's aurasphere sooo...I'd imagine that too.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I can see how b-air and AS would be fundamental, but I don't see how d-air would. I don't know much about Kirby, so I'm going to need a little explanation, please.

 

[Pentaoku]

I can see how b-air and AS would be fundamental, but I don't see how d-air would. I don't know much about Kirby, so I'm going to need a little explanation, please.

Kirby's down air on the ground sends you into the perfect range for an f-tilt or f-smash follow up.

 

[Trela]

The stage I mostly beat Kirbys on is Bridge of Eldin. Aerial stages work good for Kirbys.

Fsmash is used a lot by Kirbys =D

Dunno if this helps anything =}

 

[Mega_Salamence]

nice thred....good advice

 

[Jeepy Sol]

If we finish Kirby today, we can start on fox tomorrow! =O

All I need is some more info on Recommended Stages.

 

[Pentaoku]

If we finish Kirby today, we can start on fox tomorrow! =O

All I need is some more info on Recommended Stages.

I dunno, for some reason I feel that we haven't talked much about Kirby. Maybe we should come back to Kirby later when more players seem to have an idea of how Kirby plays...

But I would guess that a low-ceiling stage could help you kill Kirby sooner, but that's a weakness for Lucario too so eh.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I don't think you'd ever want a low ceiling stage as Lucci, no matter who you're fighting. His vertical knockback resistance isn't so great, and he's not the best vertical killer either. Besides, you always want a stage where it's harder to kill on. Your opponent will be living longer, too, but he won't be getting a power boost from it.

 

[Timbers]

I haven't played much Kirby. Outside of his on-paper combos, I don't know much about him. Sorry =\

 

[Jeepy Sol]

It's cool. You've done too much for this thread to have to worry about it. ^.^

OK! I think I've got everything I need for Kirby. Like Pentaoku said, I may decide to come back to him in a bit.

As of now, I will label the match-up 55:45, neutral. Objections?

Also, if there's anything that you think should be added, please say so!

Fox tomorrow!

 

[Timbers]

I'd really like Azen's input on the match before we move on. He had mentioned that Kirby can pose difficult for Lucario, and I'm sure he has enough experience regarding the matchup to flesh out his belief on it.

Hopefully he'll show up in the Lucario IRC tonight.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I'm going to go ahead and post the export tonight, and if he has anything he'd like to add he can post it there or here, or you can relay his information to me if you guys talk in the IRC.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Ah, Fox. Keep in mind that unlike his fellow space furries, he has no problems with using his reflector off the stage, so don't bother trying to force him into a bad position with an aura sphere. A wall of fairs, however, will mess with his recovery quite nicely.
And do watch out for the sliding usmash, it's nasty.

 

[Browny]

Fox's usmash is gay. god knows why anyone considers him nerfed from melee, when his strongest attack is able to be done out of a dash now. but yeats lots of fairs... you can never have enough vs fox

 

[Timbers]

Fox's usmash is gay. god knows why anyone considers him nerfed from melee, when his strongest attack is able to be done out of a dash now. but yeats lots of fairs... you can never have enough vs fox

Because it's impossible for him to combo into the usmash killer. Resulting in him getting shieldgrabbed over and over again from shielded attempts.

I'm going to have oh so much fun talking about how much you can molest Fox, but it's gonna have to wait till tomorrow. =)

 

[Samuelson]

Because it's impossible for him to combo into the usmash killer. Resulting in him getting shieldgrabbed over and over again from shielded attempts.

I'm going to have oh so much fun talking about how much you can molest Fox, but it's gonna have to wait till tomorrow. =)

im exited to learn how to molest him

 

[tedward2000]

Woo!
And I get to make a new review!!
I'll be sure to make this one a good one. (thumbs up)
-t2

 

[Timbers]

Lucario vs. Fox:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4989400#post4989400

Chart:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/mootmootmoot/LucarioMatchupChart-1copy-7.png

 

[tedward2000]

Copied From:
The Big Book of Fox Matchups thread

Lucario
Lucario’s aerials are quick and have strange hitboxes, making him awkward to fight in the air. He can also combo well with them due to their low knockback. His d-air also lets him air stall and is quite powerful. Stick to the ground for this one. Fighting Lucario in the air is just too hard. His ground attacks are only of average speed and power, so that is where you want to be. You are much quicker than him here, so just fight him with your d-airs, n-airs, tilts, and smashes to come out victorious. One thing to note on the ground is that a good player will try a lot of jab cancels, which can lead into u-tilts for getting you into the air. He will also jab into forward B which is inescapable if you are hit by the initial jabs at lower %s. Be careful of his aura too. Lucario is relatively light so try to get a KO before 100% if you can. After that his aura gets strong enough to be a major threat to you. Use your superior ground speed to make this an easy fight. Go to the air if you want a challenge. 3.5/5

(not my own)
-t2

 

[Destati]

sounds like an advantage for Lucario. Fox doesn't have the greatest range and apparently fears flying Lucario users. Fox does not like being gimped. He's a fast-faller with weak recovery methods which is just bait for Lucario's over-the-ledge Fair-Fair-DJ-Fair-Fair combo. His Usmash has no where near the amount of reach as Lucario's Dair so I'm not afraid of that.

 

[Timbers]

Copied From:
The Big Book of Fox Matchups thread

Lucario
Lucario’s aerials are quick and have strange hitboxes, making him awkward to fight in the air. He can also combo well with them due to their low knockback. His d-air also lets him air stall and is quite powerful. Stick to the ground for this one. Fighting Lucario in the air is just too hard. His ground attacks are only of average speed and power, so that is where you want to be. You are much quicker than him here, so just fight him with your d-airs, n-airs, tilts, and smashes to come out victorious. One thing to note on the ground is that a good player will try a lot of jab cancels, which can lead into u-tilts for getting you into the air. He will also jab into forward B which is inescapable if you are hit by the initial jabs at lower %s. Be careful of his aura too. Lucario is relatively light so try to get a KO before 100% if you can. After that his aura gets strong enough to be a major threat to you. Use your superior ground speed to make this an easy fight. Go to the air if you want a challenge. 3.5/5

(not my own)
-t2

Sounds fairly inaccurate and/or outdated.

Fox is one of the few characters where your lack of grabrange means squat, because he seriously can't space at all. None of his moves are disjointed, which seriously sucks for him given how you have lingering hitboxes that'll tear through him.

His common approaches are shff nair, sh dair, and just dash attack. Fair is honestly probably one of his best moves. He can use this to approach as well, but for a different reason. Using it in a shorthop or fulljump/midair gives him vertical boost. He can use this to DI behind you and use his near instant utilt. Your utilt will actually catch him out of this if he tries it, so be aware at all times. He can also shff it into grabs and jab cancels. With all that said, NONE OF THESE MOVES HAVE ANY SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF RANGE. Your ftilt can seriously beast his entire approach, and you can literally shieldgrab every move he does excluding dsmash. You can grab him out of his jabkicks by the way. His kicks=his body. It makes your grabrange look phenomenal.

What they said that was right was Luc's airgame>>>>>Fox. The only thing you should really even concern yourself with is his dair, and even then it's not going to bother you that much at all. Just space yourself with your uair if you want to go up against it.

DO NOT USE LAGGY MOVES. Fsmash, dsmash, usmash, forcepalm, etc. Fox's usmash is very hard for him to land, unless you're practically giving him a free opportunity to hyphen usmash you. His usmash is strong, but it's not really a practical move for him to land outside of a good drill. You shouldn't be dying in this match until 130% or so, when his dsmash and fsmash become killers (unless you got gayed on the edge by one of them)

Fox lost a lot of his combo potential. He lost his edgeguard game, and for such an offensive character...Brawl is all defense. It's too easy to make quick work of a character that can't space and can't defend. I love Fox and all, but Sakurai just ***** his furry butt.

 

[Samuelson]

DO NOT USE LAGGY MOVES. Fsmash, dsmash, usmash, forcepalm, etc. Fox's usmash is very hard for him to land, unless you're practically giving him a free opportunity to hyphen usmash you. His usmash is strong, but it's not really a practical move for him to land outside of a good drill. You shouldn't be dying in this match until 130% or so, when his dsmash and fsmash become killers (unless you got gayed on the edge by one of them)

So our main killing moves on Fox should be AS, Bair, Dair and Uair?

 

[tedward2000]

Star Fox, the galaxy's own flying knight in a can.
Equipped with a scouter, blaster, energy shield, butt implants and really big toed shoes.

He was a legend in melee, that how ever is not the same for brawl.
Out of the Space animals, he's the caffeinated one. Super fast running, dashing and attacks which puts light speed to shame.

Majority of fox's signature moves are a series of many attacks, stuck to one button press. You don't need to worry about getting hit, its going to happen regardless.

Among the differences of the space animals, there are two highly noticeable differences. The Blaster and the Shiny. Foxes blaster fires a weak laser that can be spammed to ones heart desire. It is the weakest of the lasers, for it has no knockback, medium range, and dies after awhile. Fox's shiny is small, and encompasses him completely. It will cause damage on touch and reflect any energy. When used in the air, it will slow fox's fall, and when used to hit someone, those hit will fall at a low angle pointing downward.

As for aerials, its either a series of fast multi hitting hits, or one solid attack. Take you pick. On the ground, if he's not near you, expect lasers to rack up damage. Any closer, and his massive feet will fly. His hands never really make contact with you, unless he's grabbing. Its some serious "Boot to the face" action. His froward smash has movement and range, and its chain-able and highly used. His Upsmash is just a deadly, sending those hit by it, to the stars.

This match is slightly in the favor to fox, depending on the fighting style of the Fox player. A air battle will be hard for fox, due to our disjointed hit boxes, So then It would be in Lucario's favor significantly. But on the ground, Fox will be able to stop our AS's and do bits of damage here and there. Any fault or slip by Lucario, and Fox will take the advantage and smash you sky high.
Its rough and fur will fly in this bitter match.
-t2

 

[Timbers]

So our main killing moves on Fox should be AS, Bair, Dair and Uair?

Well it was exaggerated. I mean don't leave yourself open if at all costs. If you're using that fsmash, you better be certain it's going to kill him if it connects, or it's just not worth the risk. Ftilt is a fine spacing move in this match, you shouldn't need to fsmash. If he's in tipper range of fsmash, he's going to be able to run into a usmash while you're still in fsmash startup lag. That's dangerous. I'd really recommend using it if it's while he's landing onto the ground, or bait him to whiff a dair/nair, or something.

This match is slightly in the favor to fox, depending on the fighting style of the Fox player. A air battle will be hard for fox, due to our disjointed hit boxes. But on the ground, Fox will be able to stop our AS's and do bits of damage here and there. Any fault or slip by Lucario, and Fox will take the advantage and smash you sky high.
Its rough and fur will fly in this bitter match.
-t2

No way.

60:40 in Luc's favor.

 

[tedward2000]

60:40 how so?
I would like to be correct in my review, so If there's anything. please, answer.
-t2

 

[Timbers]

I already gave my thoughts on the last page

 

[Pentaoku]

So basically, a defensive Lucario is a sad Fox?

Huh. So which stages give Fox trouble and Lucario the advantage?

I would guess that Frigate would help Lucario survive that killer up smash due to the sky high ceiling, and that it can discourage blaster camping.

 

[Destati]

Perhaps Luigi's Mansion as well. People keep saying that its a Lucario stage (I still dont see how). There are ceilings that help protect against the Usmash and the pillars themselves act as shields for projectiles.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Perhaps Luigi's Mansion as well. People keep saying that its a Lucario stage (I still dont see how). There are ceilings that help protect against the Usmash and the pillars themselves act as shields for projectiles.

about 3/4th of the people will say big stage=more life=aura=lucario ownage

the other 1/4 say this

This matchup is in lucario's favor for sure, just dont use dsmash and dont whiff fsmash like an idiot. He can't rush into you before you can set up a shield because fsmash, although it takes time to start, has very little end lag. Ftilt should annihilate him because he has a low jump and iirc the fp chainthrow can get to 60% if you finish up the chain at like 40% and follow it up with a fair>fair>BAS/AS.

Besides his usmash, i honestly know nothing about fox's kill moves, so I'm gonna go play as him for a day or two and attempt to figure out some of his quirks and some exploits against him. Oh, and does anybody know at what % lucario has to be to be killed from the center of FD using a fully charge AS and have it reflected?

 

[Timbers]

Besides his usmash, i honestly know nothing about fox's kill moves, so I'm gonna go play as him for a day or two and attempt to figure out some of his quirks and some exploits against him. Oh, and does anybody know at what % lucario has to be to be killed from the center of FD using a fully charge AS and have it reflected?

Most of his killmoves require some type of sweetspot.

Fsmash, the arc of his shin-to-top-of-foot deals the most horizontal knockback. Without it, you'll be sitting pretty until 150-160% when hit from the center. Bair is a great killer when sweetspotted (his foot) the trajectory is like -10-20 degrees. Usmash is basically anywhere in front of him. The top and behind him do weak knockback. Uair, as long as you're close enough for the second hit to connect, then you're dead at 120% or so.

No idea what aurasphere deals at 100%, but Fox won't hesitate to use it. It's very fast, and very little cooldown lag. If you use it, please never use it when you're standing still. It just begs him to shine it.

EDIT: No Fox help so far in Fox forum P:

 

[DuskMarthWater]

You know...Luigi's Mansion should really be renamed either Lucario's Mansion or Metaknight's Palace. Seriously. Great stage for Lucario, depending on if your DI is good or if it sucks.

I don't have too much experience on this match-up either, so I'll leave it to you guys. The next few I can help out with though.

One thing I will recommend though, and that is this: his up-B has terrible starting lag, so if you get him off the stage and below, you'd better take advantage of it, 'cause usually that sets up for you to have an easy kill. If you successfully hit him, then he'll probably be too far away to reach the ledge, so just grab it WITH invincibility frames and edge-hog him. Unless of course he dies from the initial hit...anyways, ABUSE him off the stage, especially when he comes from below and when he uses the up-B.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

One thing I will recommend though, and that is this: his up-B has terrible starting lag, so if you get him off the stage and below, you'd better take advantage of it, 'cause usually that sets up for you to have an easy kill. If you successfully hit him, then he'll probably be too far away to reach the ledge, so just grab it WITH invincibility frames and edge-hog him. Unless of course he dies from the initial hit...anyways, ABUSE him off the stage, especially when he comes from below and when he uses the up-B.

yeah, if you can fair him twice off the stage, there's no way he can live. And unlike falco there's no risk in following up an off stage hit because fox illusion sends the person it hits up! So abuse the crap out of him with fair and he can't survive.

also: does dair poke through fire fox? if it does...then this matchup is above 60:40 lucario

 

[Timbers]

According to Milln, fair outprioritizes it too.