~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Browny]

Sorry, against a good pika it wont work. We can QA to the stage and still cancel it...........now who says its overrated =p

how exactly. i mean like, draw me an MS paint picture or something of how pikachu could possibly QAC when he is below the stage and more than one QA movement away. its much the same as lucarios. theres a small area from which he can curve ES over a ledgehogger such that we will land with practically no lag. If pika is anywhere greater than the first QA movement away and below the ledge, he cant cancel it on landing, and each QA movement doesnt exactly go very far.

obviously this wont happen often since thats what skull bash is for, but pikas recovery is still not completely safe

 

[Timbers]

QAC is safe. If Pikachu is recovering from way below the stage, he's doing something wrong.

If you're ever in a position to bair his skullbash though, do it. It's beautiful.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Lucario being a steel/fighting type takes neutral damage from electic attacks. Brick Break is pikachu's best option, and lucario is initially slower. So i highly advise the use of swords dance (up taunt) and extremespeed to take down the little rodent.

--thunder gives you enough time to either AD or DT so that's not that bad.
--thunder jolt spam sucks ****, it's annoying, luckily if you are on a stage like battlefield, it isn't so bad.

keep pika in the air and make sure you get your attack off first (obviously easier said than done). Can somebody outline how QAC works, I've only heard about it and know hardly nothing about it.

and i thought that pika's dair had terrible landing lag...

 

[Pentaoku]

Lucario being a steel/fighting type takes neutral damage from electic attacks. Brick Break is pikachu's best option, and lucario is initially slower. So i highly advise the use of swords dance (up taunt) and extremespeed to take down the little rodent.

Lucario and Pikachu have the exact same base speed. Pretty much any attack Lucario does will OHKO Pikachu (unless that Pikachu has a focus sash, in which case the Pikachu is weak anyway), thus there is no need for swords dance + extreme speed. /othergames

But yes, while Pikachu's dair has landing lag, it has a landing hitbox too if you're not careful.

 

[Fizzle]

Speaking of Double Team, a good Lucario player will know how to use this very easily and will be able to dodge any attack your throw at him other than grabs.

Wow, if anyone knows a Lucario player that can predict every attack and DT it - as well as having the guts to DT that many times a match - then I'd sure as **** like to meet them. lol

How to beat a Pika? Keep him in your fsmash range at all times. That way he's too far away to hit you and too close to spam without being punished. If he QACs away, then either follow him or try to fire a full AS in his face. Get him in the air where, for the most part, you'll overwhelm him with your superior aerial play. Pika is one of the best spammers in the game, so you'll always want to space well and keep up the pressure.

Probably another 60-40 matchup.

Anybody know if Luc's uair outranges/beats Pika's dair?

 

[M@v]

0-40% CG. Lucky. This stupid mouse cgs fox to 80%.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I say Luc has an advantage over Pika in terms of range, not to mention he can just Down B the Thunder spammers.

 

[Trapt497]

That was good information with the fox matchup jeepy. Good work.

 

[tedward2000]

Pikachu, the oversized mouse with a 9V battery stuck up its butt.
He's a quick little bugger that gets on everybody's nerves without a song.

Pikachu has been in every Smash bro's games to date. With minor tweaks here and there, but hasn't changed too much from his original version. With lightning fast attacks and lightning, any character fighting him will feel the thunder.

Pikachu has dinky little arms, so majority of his attacks are from this electricity or some part of his body. Meaning, Pika's got some kind of disjointed range. He's small, so the extended range is highly needed and used.

Out of the box, Pika's got some new tricks up his sleeve. One such sleeve is his newly tweaked Quick Attack (Up-b). Pika can change direction of where his going, and this does damage if made contact. So on the ground, he can run lines around you, leaving you helpless.

What also makes pika good is he can punish those who like to hang onto ledges. Pika's thundershock (B) dances along surfaces. So a Mr.Cliffhanger will get a face full of electricity and fall. By then, Pika can follow up with his ever so famous ThunderBolt (Down-B). A thunderbolt will hurtle downward perfectly parallel to where pika was when he used the move. Those hit, go flying.

Aura spam will be faltered by the thundershocks, and Pika can fire his faster. A medium+ AS (depending on %) however will eat through many shocks and possibly hitting pika. Dont rely on DT to save you to often, one mistake and your going to be hit by a little yellow rodent.

Then there's the Whorenado. Pika's Down smash, and its devastating. It has a AOE effect on Pikachu, anyone near him will get "grabbed" by electric sparks and sucked into the center of Pika, taking high amounts of damage in the process. Pika's love this move. Everyone else, not so much.

In the ways of %/%. I will say that this match is in Pika's favor, only by sheer speed and the canceling of some of our key moves.
-t2

 

[IceDX]

since this it the matchup thread i guess i should ask this here.....

Ive Noticed that some CPU relese themselfs after u FP them how do they do that??

 

[Timbers]

Mash enough buttons to get out of it. I believe it's possible to get out if you're under 25%..or somewhere around there.

You have better options to rack up damage than the forcepalm chain though, unless you're going against a character that can be chained till like 40-50. I think that leaves like, 4 characters?

 

[neji32]

how exactly. i mean like, draw me an MS paint picture or something of how pikachu could possibly QAC when he is below the stage and more than one QA movement away. its much the same as lucarios. theres a small area from which he can curve ES over a ledgehogger such that we will land with practically no lag. If pika is anywhere greater than the first QA movement away and below the ledge, he cant cancel it on landing, and each QA movement doesnt exactly go very far.

obviously this wont happen often since thats what skull bash is for, but pikas recovery is still not completely safe

Im not sure if this is what you wanted but, i did terrible on the drawings xD

Lucario being a steel/fighting type takes neutral damage from electic attacks. Brick Break is pikachu's best option, and lucario is initially slower. So i highly advise the use of swords dance (up taunt) and extremespeed to take down the little rodent.

--thunder gives you enough time to either AD or DT so that's not that bad.
--thunder jolt spam sucks ****, it's annoying, luckily if you are on a stage like battlefield, it isn't so bad.

keep pika in the air and make sure you get your attack off first (obviously easier said than done). Can somebody outline how QAC works, I've only heard about it and know hardly nothing about it.

and i thought that pika's dair had terrible landing lag...

QAC works in 2 ways. 1 you can QA to the stage and be up in the air for a airborne attack, or you can QA to the ground and stay on it for multiple QAs or a quick Dair.


Oh an if a pikas doing Dair, theres something wrong. Thats a move that shouldnt be used to often by pika

 

[Browny]

thats what i mean. Same as lucario, if pika is in the green zone, he can land with no landing lag, if hes in the red zone, he has no choice but to land over the stage. If pika doesnt skull bash immediately after being knocked off, he could easily be fair'ed into the red zone. but as i said, pikachu should never be put in this situation. similar to wolf, if pika doesnt use his recovery (or one of them in this case) ASAP, hes put in a position where he only has one option, to recover over the stage.

this is something people need to realise when playing against lucario too. Edgehogging him is next to impossible since hes slo floaty he has no trouble staying out of the red zone, from which although he can still recover, he will have landing lag.

 

[Pentaoku]

Pikachu, the oversized mouse with a 9V battery stuck up its butt.
He's a quick little bugger that gets on everybody's nerves without a song.

Pikachu has been in every Smash bro's games to date. With minor tweaks here and there, but hasn't changed too much from his original version. With lightning fast attacks and lightning, any character fighting him will feel the thunder.

Pikachu has dinky little arms, so majority of his attacks are from this electricity or some part of his body. Meaning, Pika's got some kind of disjointed range. He's small, so the extended range is highly needed and used.

Out of the box, Pika's got some new tricks up his sleeve. One such sleeve is his newly tweaked Quick Attack (Up-b). Pika can change direction of where his going, and this does damage if made contact. So on the ground, he can run lines around you, leaving you helpless.

What also makes pika good is he can punish those who like to hang onto ledges. Pika's thundershock (B) dances along surfaces. So a Mr.Cliffhanger will get a face full of electricity and fall. By then, Pika can follow up with his ever so famous ThunderBolt (Down-B). A thunderbolt will hurtle downward perfectly parallel to where pika was when he used the move. Those hit, go flying.

Aura spam will be faltered by the thundershocks, and Pika can fire his faster. A medium+ AS (depending on %) however will eat through many shocks and possibly hitting pika. Dont rely on DT to save you to often, one mistake and your going to be hit by a little yellow rodent.

Then there's the Whorenado. Pika's Down smash, and its devastating. It has a AOE effect on Pikachu, anyone near him will get "grabbed" by electric sparks and sucked into the center of Pika, taking high amounts of damage in the process. Pika's love this move. Everyone else, not so much.

In the ways of %/%. I will say that this match is in Pika's favor, only by sheer speed and the canceling of some of our key moves.
-t2

Uh... what key moves do we have canceled out again? Aura Sphere? Considering that AS can eat Thunderjolts, I wouldn't say that. Baby Aura Spheres would be too slow to hit Pika even if he couldn't cancel them.

Also hasn't Pikachu always had the ability to change the direction of Quick Attack? I think the only thing new about it is it's ability to cancel. Down-B is thunder not thunderbolt, but that's just me being nitpicky.

You don't really mention DIing out of downsmash either... I don't see how Pikachu can shut down any of Lucario's game by your post. o_O

 

[manhunter098]

I was under the impression that d-air for Pikachu is actually a pretty decent move with incredible priority too if I remember correctly. The only thing you want to avoid is hitting the ground with it, otherwise its a decent move, its got a quick start up, good knockback, good damage. Heck you could even use it to edge guard depending on your opponent.

 

[tedward2000]

Uh... what key moves do we have canceled out again? Aura Sphere? Considering that AS can eat Thunderjolts, I wouldn't say that. Baby Aura Spheres would be too slow to hit Pika even if he couldn't cancel them.

Also hasn't Pikachu always had the ability to change the direction of Quick Attack? I think the only thing new about it is it's ability to cancel. Down-B is thunder not thunderbolt, but that's just me being nitpicky.

You don't really mention DIing out of downsmash either... I don't see how Pikachu can shut down any of Lucario's game by your post. o_O

Its just a review of Pika, and a little minor tidbit of the match-up.

Pika is much faster then Lucario, thats a given. How Pika shuts down Lucario's game however is by using thundershocks every 3 seconds. Thundershock will travel on the ground in the direction fired, meaning Pika can be in the air and rip on off, making you do one of many things; spot dodge, shield or jump. If you jump, Pika's already in the air, more then likely already attacking. If you stay grounded, pika can preform some sort of aerial of some kind. Lucario will have a better option to attack.

If both are gounded, lets say near each other, Pika's Fsmash and Dsmash is much faster the our Fsmash or Dsmash. Thus Shutting those moves down on a plain fight. If the Lucario is going to try something tricky (which is the better way to go) Pika can stop you from doing that, via Thundershock. But thats Smash to Smash. Jab's and tlits, Lucario was the upperhand, but they will be stopped by a Thundershock and pika's now hitting you.

Sure we have range, but it will do squat if your in Pika's range. Get in Pika's AOE, and he will shut your game down. That is what Im saying, our AS is shut down if not charged. And our smashes are shut down if in his range.

And im very sure AS and our Smashes are Key moves.

-t2

 

[Timbers]

Pika's approach is ****ing amazing. Don't stand there like an idiot, you'll get murdered. If you're not pummelling the little rodent, stay in the air and keep him guessing. Just standing around isn't going to do you anything.

Keep full auraspheres at all times. Throw one at him when he attempts to thundershock you. Thundershock has a pretty crappy afterlag on it, so if you're a decent space away from him, it'll tear through the thundershock and destroy him.

Also Pika's recovery is infinitely times safer than Lucarios. Like, no startup lag, and actually hitting a Pikachu out of his QA deserves cool points.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Lucario and Pikachu have the exact same base speed. Pretty much any attack Lucario does will OHKO Pikachu (unless that Pikachu has a focus sash, in which case the Pikachu is weak anyway), thus there is no need for swords dance + extreme speed. /othergames

But yes, while Pikachu's dair has landing lag, it has a landing hitbox too if you're not careful.

who runs a jolly lucario? nobody. If i used a pikachu i'd run it with +spd, no doubt and the light ball. Extremespeed does a OHKO most of the time (read: a lot) but with 148 EVs in HP pikachu will always survive it. Meanwhile it'll be OHKO'd with volt tackle, but that IS pika's final smash so i gotta give this advantage to lucario.

 

[Browny]

so i just thought of something... as pikachu is recovering, jump off the edge and dair beyond the ledge-snap range. surely that will knock him out of QA (i cant test this for a while) and dairs hitbox its stupidly large so you can completely cover the edge

Also Pika's recovery is infinitely times safer than Lucarios. Like, no startup lag, and actually hitting a Pikachu out of his QA deserves cool points.

I still disagree. i play pikachu probably more than i do lucario (only because its hilarious how many wifi nubs like to use TL/G&W and dair me from the sky) and i get gimped way more often with pika than i do lucario. He just cant afford to airdodge an edgeguarding attempt at get back entirely safely. sure he can thundershock as he falls, but missing an opportunity to skullbash at height is risky. dont worry im not saying lucarios recovery is better or anything, but pikas is far from godlike. just like marth, all it takes is some proper techniques + prediction (in his case, rolldodge-edgehog) and his recovery is majorly screwed by anyone who knows how to do that. against anyone else, his recovery seems godly too

 

[Daimonster]

In regards to pika shutting down lucario's game; I believe thundershocks can be positionally negated by rolling towards your opponent to close space.
Also, lucario has a stronger aerial priority vs pikachu. I don't see pikachu competing much with lucario's f.air to d.air/n.air approach. Despite having QAC, how would pikachu get through lucario's WOP? Even with proper spacing, pikachu doesn't have a long range poke that out prioritizes lucario's SHR b.airs. Furthermore...
To my knowledge, pika's main ko moves are f.smash and u.smash. Both in which have a hard time connecting when lucario is controlling the air above pikachu. The longer lucario stays at around ~70%+, the harder the match becomes for any character facing him.

my 2cents.

 

[Timbers]

I still disagree. i play pikachu probably more than i do lucario (only because its hilarious how many wifi nubs like to use TL/G&W and dair me from the sky) and i get gimped way more often with pika than i do lucario. He just cant afford to airdodge an edgeguarding attempt at get back entirely safely. sure he can thundershock as he falls, but missing an opportunity to skullbash at height is risky. dont worry im not saying lucarios recovery is better or anything, but pikas is far from godlike. just like marth, all it takes is some proper techniques + prediction (in his case, rolldodge-edgehog) and his recovery is majorly screwed by anyone who knows how to do that. against anyone else, his recovery seems godly too

Pikachu doesn't have to airdodge because he can sweetspot the ledge from anywhere if he's horizontal with the stage.

Not many characters can go that far out to punish him.

Skullbash is honestly a stupid way to recover unless you're positive the opponent isn't in a position to hit you. It's low as hell priority, and moves slow. It begs the opponent to knock you out of it.

Pika has one of the safest recoveries in the entire game. Excluding MK, I honestly can't think of a character that has an easier time recovering than Pikachu.

Go ahead and correct me if you want.

 

[Browny]

no i mean the idea is to skullbash from as high up as possible. imagine pikachu vs ROB attempting a fair WOP. nothing pikachu has will go through that, and if rob predicts a QA his nair will make short work of that. pikas best option is to get as high up as possible, using the second jump if needed, skullbash and then FF airdodge to the ground. its the only way he can recover safely without eating lasers.

and im pretty sure sonic + rob have an easier time recovering. Sonic has really high priority on his sideb that will go through any attack when timed right, and spring has a lot of invincibility frames. ROB just flies so high no one can touch him. both can recover from anywhere on the screen safely over the edge

 

[Timbers]

If every character was knocked "as high up as possible," recovery would be a breeze.

You just compared Pikachu's recovery to one of the best gimp characters in the game, by the way. >_> Give me a character who doesn't get gimped by ROB (NO METAGAYS >_>!)

I'll give you Sonic, but ROB's recovery is unsafe. Being unable to airdodge out of it makes it difficult. He moves slow, and he's a big target. Recovering onto the stage with ROB is generally a bad idea, because he has a huge blindspot beneath him. Going for the ledge is the best idea for ROB.

But yeah okay, Metaknight and Sonic. Pikachu being third really makes his recovery seem safe still. Protecting himself with thundershocks, and QA to stage as opponent is dealing with thundershocks. He's small, too. I can't think of anyone who has an easier time than that getting back.

 

[neji32]

I was under the impression that d-air for Pikachu is actually a pretty decent move with incredible priority too if I remember correctly. The only thing you want to avoid is hitting the ground with it, otherwise its a decent move, its got a quick start up, good knockback, good damage. Heck you could even use it to edge guard depending on your opponent.

Yes and no. Its really good off edge for knockback, has too much lag for on stage use. It doesnt have alot of priority and it leads into nothing. On stage, pika has too many other options.

thats what i mean. Same as lucario, if pika is in the green zone, he can land with no landing lag, if hes in the red zone, he has no choice but to land over the stage. If pika doesnt skull bash immediately after being knocked off, he could easily be fair'ed into the red zone. but as i said, pikachu should never be put in this situation. similar to wolf, if pika doesnt use his recovery (or one of them in this case) ASAP, hes put in a position where he only has one option, to recover over the stage.

this is something people need to realise when playing against lucario too. Edgehogging him is next to impossible since hes slo floaty he has no trouble staying out of the red zone, from which although he can still recover, he will have landing lag.

Why cant pika just Up B to the ledge? Even if you hog it, it can still knock you off, then force you to land on stage. But maybe you mean something else

 

[neji32]

no i mean the idea is to skullbash from as high up as possible. imagine pikachu vs ROB attempting a fair WOP. nothing pikachu has will go through that, and if rob predicts a QA his nair will make short work of that. pikas best option is to get as high up as possible, using the second jump if needed, skullbash and then FF airdodge to the ground. its the only way he can recover safely without eating lasers.

and im pretty sure sonic + rob have an easier time recovering. Sonic has really high priority on his sideb that will go through any attack when timed right, and spring has a lot of invincibility frames. ROB just flies so high no one can touch him. both can recover from anywhere on the screen safely over the edge

Pika can double jump thunder jolt thunder jolt. Then QA the ledge >_<

Seriously, alot of you are underestimating pika just because lucario outranges. Please, fight me or anther and you will see what I mean.

 

[Timbers]

Seriously, alot of you are underestimating pika just because lucario outranges. Please, fight me or anther and you will see what I mean.

"A lot of you" ?

Who.

 

[Trela]

Im not liking where this Pika match-up is goin =/ I just wanna get Pika done with and move along to the green guy.

I dont underestimate Pikachu. He's a good character, though it can get annoying when they only spam Thunder the whole match -_-

 

[Shiri]

LOL

Poop

You have no idea of what you're talking about.

 

[Timbers]

LOL



You have no idea of what you're talking about.

amazing. perfectly executed argument. brilliant. 5 stars.


no but really if you really have nothing to contribute get out.

 

[dguy6789]

Snip

Spam from scrubs isn't needed.

 

[Conclusively]

Against Pika mains with good DI, it's extremely hard to combo them in the air. (lolwut combos in brawl? you know what I mean) Thunderjolt (neutral b) is extremely annoying when spammed. It blocks baby aura spheres you try to shoot to space yourself out. He's also a small target and extremely fast, which makes him even harder to hit. He has a good down smash that racks up damage and QAC -> Thunder can kill you if you're not careful. Forward smash has a decent range, but Lucario's F Smash outranges it. Most of Lucarios moves outprioritize Pika's and you can edgeguard pika pretty nicely if you space out bairs and nairs. it's a pretty even matchup imo, mostly dependent on the player's skill.

 

[Timbers]

I agree that it's 50:50

If I could sum it up in a sentence, I'd say Pikachu controls the ground, and Lucario controls the air.

 

[Trela]

Well, I guess were done with Pika now?

I agree with Timbers. I think it is a 50-50. Oh, and congrats on Smash Lord :D

 

[Binx]

Now I hated counters in melee, but what about using D-B against thundershock? if you reversed it it would help you approach, I know pikas lag isn't that great, it isn't like thundershock is hard to see coming, at worst it would cut down the spam a little like using counter as marth vs falco in melee, ya?

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Yeah 50-50 sounds good, maybe even 55:45 in Lucario's favor, the reason being that aerials are the most important attribute in the game and Lucario's air game > Pikachu's. However, Pikachu is fast, really fast, like faster than Sonic fast, so he has the potential to get in your face very quickly. Plus, if by some off chance you're forced to use UpB to recover, be prepared to get hit by the ol' ledge grab --> Thunder spam if you're facing a good Pika. Pikachu's Thunder Jolt > Lucario's Aura Sphere until around 50%. This sounds like Pikachu has a lot on Lucario, but it can all be avoided with a simple jump/dodge and proper DI. Just remember to constantly challenge Pikachu in the air, his poor range/versatility in the air is no match for Lucario's priority and huge hitboxes.

For stages, I would recommend places where Pikachu can't abuse his projectiles and speed so well. Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield, Luigi's Mansion (although I'm sure this stage will eventually be banned from tourny play so it won't matter), and Frigate Orpheon will kill Pikachu easier than it kills you. Stages I'd avoid are Pictochat (huge stage for maneuverability + walls that favor Pika = not good), Norfair (Dsmash and projectile spam at its worst), and Yoshi's Island (seriously, this place favors campers very heavily -_-)

 

[Mangiks]

I'd have to say its 55-45 to pikachu, his ground game is just too good.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

I'd have to say its 55-45 to pikachu, his ground game is just too good.

Upon further thought, yeah, that sounds good to me too.

 

[Nodrak]

Pikachu... <.<
When played by a noob, you very quickly learn how to avoid thunderbolts and thunderjolts. When played by the average person you learn to keep your cool and take advantage of screwups. When played by a pro you learn the fine art of swearing... and how to butcher it.

Thunderjolts can be dodged, RDT'ed, jumped over, Pshielded ect... Pikachu IS able to rack up damage fast with his non spam-ed attacks and has plenty of ways to kill. Despite Pikachu being good at being a prick and can seemingly run circles around Lucario with QAC and such, he is a soccer ball. One good boot and Pika is flying off the stage. Tilts and smashes will outrange Pika for the most part and when Pika is at 50%+ ish, most of Lucario's kill moves take effect (at mid %'s for both players, utilt will kill Pika in a second if he's standing anywhere around you).

To be honest, I'm not sure how the 'average' pika rates compared to Lucario. If you're a quick Lucario who isn't a creature of habit, Pika isn't too bad to fight. I'd give Pika a 50/50. Although it seems like Pika is good, he dies just as fast as he gives damage.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

I would say 60-40 for Lucario's air game and Aura

 

[Pentaoku]

I don't get why people complain about Pikachu spamming. It's not nearly on the level of Wolf.