~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Jeepy Sol]

OK, I think we're almost done here. I think we've got enough of "Behavior", and I have enough to start writing "Fundamental Moves". I think we still need to discuss "How to Win" a bit more, and so far all I have for "Reccomended Stages" is Lylat Cruise. Theoretically, we could finish up with Zamus today and get started on Marth tomorrow.

 

[Timbers]

Zamus doesn't have any bad stages to be honest. She's a well rounded character. As far as Lylat, I wouldn't even consider it to be a good stage. It might be bad for ZSS, but it's not too great for us either. The tilting ship makes Aurasphere harder to use against her, and the platforms set up some uair juggle potential on her part. Just keep her off of BF, all I'm gonna say =P

How to win is going to consist relying on a lot of BAS/AS. Her stungun is her primary approach option. If she can't use it she's virtually helpless as far as approach is concerned. Keep her in ftilt range and she's helpless.

I know there's something more I want to add to that but at the moment I'm braindead.

 

[Timbers]

*double poast*

so I'm looking at the front page right now, and it feels really unorganized. Some type of index or better layout I think might help, but does anyone have any ideas? Or just leave it how it is.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I agree. I'll try and make it more organized, but suggestions would be awesome.

 

[Timbers]

For starters, I think the intro to the matchup thread should have it's own post. What is bad about that is, I don't think we can fit every single character onto your reserved spot.

We might be able to try and get away with making independent threads for the existing 5 characters we've discussed, and then link those threads to this one and use this thread as some sort of index.

Like, we hold all the discussion in this thread, and then export the gathered information/summary of the character in a new thread, and then link it to the front page.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

That's a good idea, and would work, except I don't think the Mods would like me posting 5 threads. Running out of space is a big concern of mine, though.

Anyway, I've updated the ZSS section, and I think we're done. As always, if you think I missed something, or if you think anything is incorrect, PLEASE say something.

I put the match-up at 70:30 in Lucario's favor. Objections?

 

[Timbers]

IT'S STICKIED.

YES.

YES.

70:30 might be pushing it. 65:35?

Also if you don't want to risk it, I wouldn't mind posting them. In small bursts though P: Like, I'll post Mario tonight, and then DK tomorrow night, and so forth. <.<

EDIT: Two bits of info in the ZSS matchup that concerned me.

Zero Suit Samus can build Lucario up to 150% lickity split because she outranges him, and dair doesn't really phase her, so Lucario doesn't have too much of an approach.

is not true. Fsmash and sideB telegraph themselves a lot. Just because she has greater reach in some spacing moves, doesn't necessarily mean she's going to be tacking on damage left and right against Lucario. Lucario shouldn't ever have to approach in this match, and even if he does, she's going to have a hard time with it. Lucarios don't land on opponents with dair, because Lucarios know that everyone knows about it <.<

Also regarding Lylat, I don't think her dsmash gets eaten by the platform. It's her stungun and sideB that do.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Thank you, Coen! <3 (I'm assuming it was you who stickied it. If it wasn't, a big thanks to whoever did @__@)

The only thing about putting it at 65:35 is that Samus is 65:35, and the Zamus' specifically said that Lucario was one of, if not THE, hardest match-up for them. Do you think that Samus and Zamus are equally easy match-ups?

And about the thread postings, be my guest. Maybe we each do half: You do the first tonight, I'll do the next tomorrow, etc.

 

[Timbers]

We may be Zamus' hardest matchup, but I'm sure we're still difficult for Samus as well. Samus has a lot of bad matchups, lol. We just might not be the hardest. I think Falco and Pit are like 20:80 or something broken like that for Samus.

Hmm, I'll post the mario thread in a bit.

 

[Pentaoku]

Zero Suit Samus can build Lucario up to 150% lickity split because she outranges him, and dair doesn't really phase her, so Lucario doesn't have too much of an approach.

I second that there is a mistake here...

It seems to me that doing a shorthop fair (lol like Marth) is a common way to approach with Lucario, and due to Zamus' shield-grabbing abilities... that's just another thing Lucario doesn't have to worry about.

Also, was it noted that ZSS' forward smash also hits behind her a bit? I forgot... sorry.

 

[Timbers]

Her fsmash isn't that important really. <.< Just don't try rolling behind her if she uses it.


Lucario vs. Mario

Lucario vs. Donkey Kong

 

[Tomkraven]

I can help with the reposting if u want. i havent been very useful to this thread so i think i can give some editing/reorganizing/reposting help :D

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Thanks for offering, but now that I think about it, it is probably best that I post the remainder of the threads, so that I can edit/add stuff to them whenever I want. I appreciate it, though.

As for right now, it's Marth time! This should be interesting.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Actually that was probably me who got it stickied. You're welcome.

Anyways, I haven't taken a look at the Zamus section, but I will soon. It should be pretty good, eh? Now, onto Marth?

Hmmm...I'll post again sometime later on Marth. Not now. I gots a big tournament to go to. There is one or two good Marth's there too, so hopefully I can get some more experience on them, though I do know a lot about his game already.

 

[Browny]

ive got quite a bit of experience with this one, 2 people i play regularly on wifi main marth (i mean ONLY use him) but theyre all the same, constant wifi johns, and how marth is bottom tier online etc.

granted the people i play against arent exactly pro, but im not pro by any means either, i never have trouble with marth. its kind of the same situation as DK for me, just stay the hell away from the obvious killzones (tipper fsmash) and expect to live past 110% easy. lucky for us, marth has no safe smashes on block, but lucarios fsmash has such huge range even if marth counters it, it wont even hit lucario. AS to deter SH approaches and fsmash spam to stop any ground approaches (he cant roll dodge behind it, the lingering hitbox hits him as soon as he comes out of the dodge)

idk its probably even, marth doesnt have his all-powerful range, on ground and air advantage against lucario which he does against the rest of the cast. the people i play comment on how difficult it is to approach safely when in camping with AS and fsmash, and doesnt give marth too many options to get around it, with his extremely punishable dash attack

 

[dguy6789]

Marth's fair beats your aerials. He can fair pretty rapidly and most good Marths do just that. This makes things a little tricky, but not at all terrible. Marth is still a much easier match up than someone like Toon Link or G&W.

Marth has no projectiles to worry about. They love to do up b out of shield. Take note of shield breaker, as it is much better in this game than it was in Melee. Marth can edgeguard exceptionally well, so be very careful of that. Probably all of Marth's smashes are reasonable kill moves. His tippered fsmash is by far his most dangerous kill move, be extremely cautious of it.

Overall, fighting Marth is not much unlike fighting any other character that outranges you. Just play it smart and try to realize what move the enemy is going to use and you can easily avoid it and attack them. Blindly running in against Marth either in the air or on the ground isn't the greatest idea. Projectiles mean you don't have to be the one to approach if you don't want to. The match is even.

 

[tedward2000]

What?!?! its marth already?!?!
just noticed, its a sticky now. I wondered where it went.
sarcastic review on Marth soon, =)
-t2

 

[Fizzle]

lucarios fsmash has such huge range even if marth counters it, it wont even hit lucario.

Are you sure of this. I know Marth's counter has deceptive range, and I'm almost certain he's been able to hit me after a tippered fsmash before.

But, really, as long as you camp with AS and fsmash there's not much Marth can do. Make sure you charge your aura spheres or use them at high %. Marth can cancel BAS out with most of his moves. Bottom line: don't let Marth get on the inside. His dsmash and usmash have both received good buffs, and they can kill fairly early now. His utilt can kill as well, and his dtilt might outrange a few of our moves. Dancing blade ***** now, seriously. It's quick and easy damage for Marth, and it may send you offstage for an edgeguard. It also renews all of his moves. Marth has a lot of release grab setups, but luckily I don't think any of them will work on Lucario.

I wouldn't even try the FP chaingrab. Marth is floaty enough as is, and his upb can break through anything. Comes out on frame 1 and has invincibility for 4 frames. You could try to predict the upb and shield (in that case you'd be able to punish), but I still wouldn't mess with it.

What will Marth be using? Mainly dancing blade, fair, and fsmash to kill. Fair is still really good. Many say that Lucario's air game beats Marth's (which I'll agree to some extent), but I still don't think it's a good idea to go against his fair.

Stages. PLEASE don't go battlefield. Battlefield has been Marth's playground since Melee, and it's for good reason. Marth has all of his options open there - tippered smashes, SH aerials, etc. - so it's difficult to avoid him and camp. Take him to FD (where you can maximize AS spam), or to Yoshi's Island (which is always a good Lucario stage). Never take him to Norfair. Marth dominates everyone there.

To sum it up, Marth is faster and stronger than Lucario. His edge game is excellent, and his killing options are far superior to Lucario's. But, without a projectile, Marth is vulnerable to aura sphere. Controling Marth and keeping him out of range are key to this matchup. Once Marth is in close Lucario has few viable options.

I'd put it at 50-50 or 45-55 Marth.

 

[Timbers]

Thanks for offering, but now that I think about it, it is probably best that I post the remainder of the threads, so that I can edit/add stuff to them whenever I want. I appreciate it, though.

As for right now, it's Marth time! This should be interesting.

Alright good thing you said something, I was going to go ahead and post the rest of them when I woke up xD

I'll go ahead and post the matchup in Marth boards/update chart.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4930007#post4930007

Lucario chart:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/mootmootmoot/LucarioMatchupChart-1copy-5.png

 

[tedward2000]

Marth
Bio: The Legendary Swordsmen from Fire Emblem and Melee.
Sex: not sure

The blue, dancing Blade swordsmen. Marth is legendary among the Melee/Brawl crowd for being a top notch character. Fast, good range, amazing spike and a killer hair cut to boot.

His manly weapon, is a sword. What makes the sword so special, is that is critical point is its tip. So he can "poke" you, and still get bonus points. And it has range and priority, lots of it.
And Marth has a pocket of tricks, that make him notorious.
One such trick, is his Down-B, the counter. I never knew you could counter almost anything thing with the flick of his sword. Apparently, Marth can.
Why Dodge bullets, when you can counter then with your sword?

What makes Marth a hard match-up for lucario is most every of his attacks (minus a few) outrange lucario's, and with his sweetspot the tip of his sword. A expert placement Marth, will wipe the floor with you. Back and forth spinning and slashing in a womanly-manly way.

What lucario has going for him, is projectiles, and being able to recover from Marth's spike.
A close match indeed but more in the favor of Marth.
-t2

 

[dj_pwn1423]

You know what I think about marth >_>

His attacks out prioritize Lucario's most of the time. You best option is probably AS but he can cancel it easily with things like Fair and approach at the same time. AS doesn't really slow him down much.

Well, at least Lucario doesn't need to approach :/

I would say 40-60 in Marth's favor.

 

[Timbers]

An excerpt from Emblem Lord's matchup thread in Marth boards.

60:40 Marth

Lucario - He has good range and great comboability. His hitboxes linger a bit with his attacks since he uses aura and he gets stronger the more damage he has. He can perform some good combos on Marth for alot of damage, but most of his combos can only be done on Marth when they are BOTH at low percents. He has Aura Sphere as a projectile. He will use these to play defensive and lure you in while also using them as containment tools to control your movement and spacing. Remember to jab them or perfectshield them so you can advance on your own terms while maintaining your spacing. You can also SH airdodge and then use the analog to go in either direction since Marth's aerial movement is so good. Charged Aura Sphere's can't be jabbed and fully charged ones will be used to kill. He will be relying on edgeguarding alot since his smashes aren't too great for killing, because they come out a tad slow. In terms of raw attack speed you are faster while he has more moves that are safe on block then you do. His roll is fast and he also has those lingering hitboxes, so zoning is difficult but not impossible. Remember that you do outrange his fair with yours and your tilts as well. So with good spacing you will be safe. You will usually want to DI back when zoning with fairs so that if Lucario rolls towards you he will end up in front of you. Then you can punish with Dancing Blade. Lucario's recovery isn't too hot. Extreme Speed has no hitbox so if you are on the ledge he is basically screwed. He can try to wall cling then wall jump and up b back to the stage. If you know he has to wall cling then you can ledgedrop fair or ledge drop up b and then he should be done. If he goes for the stage then he will lag and he is easy prey. Just kill him or hit him back out. When he is trying to edgeguard you, try to just airdodge or counter to get past him and then recover. When he is at 100% you need to being going for the kill since that is the percent where he starts to become significantly more powerful.

Marked in red is the part I disagree with. If you ES at the wall, you cannot ES again until you land on stage. You can wallcling very close to the edge on stages like YI, where the wall is in conjunction with the ledge. In doing so, if he gets off the ledge anytime before you actually hit that wall, then you'll auto sweetspot to the ledge. If he doesn't let go of the ledge, then you will still stick the wall. I don't have frame data, but I'd argue that you can walljump and airdodge at the same speed that he can ledgedrop and fair. If someone can confirm that for me, I'd appreciate it.

Just save your second jump. He's as vulnerable as you are when you don't have your midairs to recover. And if you're forced to wallcling, try saving either the ES or midair jump at all costs. Having one or the other will still get you back to the stage if you're hit. You can wallcling multiple times (at least twice) before you touch the stage again.

You can land near-lagless on the stage. Depending how far into the stage you can recover, you'll go unpunished. If you recover near the edge, then expect to be fair/nair'd. If you do get the crappy landing lag, you'll probably be set up to be smashed.

Everything else said in this quote I agree with.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Since the Marth "knows" you will wall cling, he doesn't really need to wait for you to do so. He can ledge spike you once you are close enough. If you counter pick with YI its not a big problem, but there is still a change you'll end up on a stage like FD or Battlefield for the first match.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seems like you guys were stuck on your last character forever.

 

[Timbers]

Since the Marth "knows" you will wall cling, he doesn't really need to wait for you to do so. He can ledge spike you once you are close enough. If you counter pick with YI its not a big problem, but there is still a change you'll end up on a stage like FD or Battlefield for the first match.

If he knows where you're going to wall cling, he's going to spike you. Every character can ledgespike Lucario's wall cling, I don't know why people are considering this a marth exclusive.

Seems like you guys were stuck on your last character forever.

I know, those 3 pages were intense.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I have to say I'm a bit surprised that quite a few of you say this is in Marth's favor however slight it may be. Only about a month and a half ago NESSBOUNDER would debate both me and Sonic Wave about how the match was even.

I was willing to call it even until Sonic Wave debated NESSBOUNDER for about 5 pages or so in the Brawl match-up thread. He has a pretty convincing argument, so I gave it to Marth.

 

[dguy6789]

It depends on how well Marth deals with projectiles. In general combat, the advantage goes to Marth. It depends on how important you consider having a projectile vs not to decide if that is enough to make the match even.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

I know, I was just referring to this segment.

I don't have frame data, but I'd argue that you can walljump and airdodge at the same speed that he can ledgedrop and fair. If someone can confirm that for me, I'd appreciate it.

I meant that he can spike you before you are able to do anything.

 

[Fizzle]

It depends on how well Marth deals with projectiles. In general combat, the advantage goes to Marth. It depends on how important you consider having a projectile vs not to decide if that is enough to make the match even.

QFT. Especially since Lucario has one of the best projectiles in the game - mainly in terms of KO potential. It's not easy as easy as it sounds to get past a Lucario edgeguarding with a fully charged AS.

 

[Timbers]

I have to say I'm a bit surprised that quite a few of you say this is in Marth's favor however slight it may be. Only about a month and a half ago NESSBOUNDER would debate both me and Sonic Wave about how the match was even.

I was willing to call it even until Sonic Wave debated NESSBOUNDER for about 5 pages or so in the Brawl match-up thread. He has a pretty convincing argument, so I gave it to Marth.

There was a disgustingly optimistic opinion on Lucario's capabilities several months back. Disregard it <.< It might be 50/50, but 40/60 just sounds more realistic. There's nothing that Marth really struggles with when going against Lucario, compared to Lucario who struggles with a lot. Marth's superior air and inside game limits Lucario too much for it to really be considered a neutral matchup, I think.

I know, I was just referring to this segment.



I meant that he can spike you before you are able to do anything.

If he ledgespikes you before you're able to do anything, then it's while you're still in ES frames. Lucario can ledgespike Marth out of dolphin slash with dair and bair. About every character has potential to ledgespike a character's recovery. We can argue that because Lucario's ES does no damage, it'd be easier. But this is Marth. He has a great disjointed airgame. Hitbox or not doesn't really phase him, unless the recovery is obscenely fast (shuttle loop, dolphin slash, illusions) Are we suppose to make note of this <.<?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh?

You seem to be confused. There is no ,"Well it depends how much much you consider having a projectile vs not having a projectile."

That doesn't matter.

What matters is how good the projectile is and what options the other character has to deal with them.

BAS's as previously stated, do not hinder Marth at all. So Lucario loses out here. Using fully charged AS as an edgeguarding tool is still good though. You just have to get Marth in a position where he is more or less forced to either eat the hit or airdodge to his doom. You would have to get him to waste his jump or knock him out pretty far to do this though. It's definitely not going to be a common occurrence in a high level match between the two that's for sure. So AS as an edgeguarding tool would have less bearing on the match-up since its far more situational.

BAS's however are an integral part of Lucario's game. The fact that Marth is uninhibited by them means alot. It means a part of Lucario's basic gameplay takes a hit.

 

[Timbers]

You can't camp with them (BAS), but you can surely integrate them into the match as effective as any other character. Just know when to use it. Marth's ftilt and fair outprioritize full auraspheres at 200%. It sucks for Lucario, but just figure when it's safe to use it and when it's not. The auraspheres are not hindering Marth, they're helping you.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well, I must say that the Lucario boards seem to have matured quite a bit. Only months agos I would read threads about the awesomeness of disjointed hitboxes and why Lucario is top tier and such.

But with you and a few of the more recent members I see posting here, I think the Lucario forums will be just fine.

 

[dguy6789]

Disjointed hitboxes are awesome and Lucario is top tier and such.

I wouldn't be opposed to calling the match 60:40 in Marth's favor. I don't feel that aura spheres are anywhere near as useless vs Marth as Emblem Lord believes however. Aura Spheres are not an integral part of Lucario's general game, he can deal with the majority of the cast without them completely if need be.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Its not as good as you think, quite a bit of the board is full of spam XD

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucario not abusing BAS is like Ryu not abusing hadoukens in ST.

I would not call them useless, but I wouldn't call them effective either. It's better then nothing of course. And If Lucario is not using BAS then you aren't abusing one of his tools that make him good. What's the point in only bringing out 90% of a characters potential? That's essentially what you are doing.

 

[dguy6789]

I'm not saying to not use them, that would be silly. I am just saying that the enemy being able to deal with them effectively in no way ruins Lucario's game plan.

 

[Emblem Lord]

But it still limits his game right? It still affects him in the match-up. It's one of the things that make him good and it's not really effective vs Marth.

Lucario isn't ruined in the match-up obviously. If he was the ratio would be 8/2 or worse not 6/4. But to say his gameplay is unaffected would be foolishly optimistic.

 

[Timbers]

Marth doesn't completely shut down aurasphere. He's typically good at getting around projectiles, that's just Marth being Marth. Characters with buckets, magnets, reflectors, and more buckets are going to be the ones taking a toll on Luc's projectile game. Marth will still eat a few auraspheres and allow us to set up openings, and that's the only reason Marth doesn't completely dominate this match.

Because I mean really, Marth poops all over everything else.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I was actually going to debate you that Marth doesn't poop on Lucario's other options/attributes, but then I realized that Marth is overall stronger, faster, with more range except on F-smash and U-smash and a better punisher.

>_>

Sooooo...yeah AS does help him out.

lol.