List of anti-ledge camping moves:

[Owndizzl3r_Ownag3]

an alternative to marth's counter is shielding then using u-b right out of sheild (with tap jump on you get invinciblity frames right out of the shield) when mk attacks. this way you can wait until a mk hits you and won't have the lag if you miss with counter.

 

[OverLade]

Doesn't Ike's eruption work?

 

[The Sauce Boss]

Doesn't Ike's eruption work?

You tell me.

 

[B!squick]

Doesn't Ike's eruption work?

Good luck getting that to hit.

You are overestimating the invulnerability advantage given to the planking metaknight.

A vote/discussion topic was made flirting with the idea of banning/limiting planking. Clearly if the SBR thinks it's enough of a problem to see what everyone else thinks, you are the one underestimating it.

 

[XienZo]

Your arguments are incredibly vague and unconvincing. You basically say "time invulnerability perfectly" for everything. To start, that is not realistic. In my opinion the real trouble with planking is having to go off stage to fight metaknight, where you are likely to get gimped and he is not. Many of these attacks allow you to stay on stage (projectiles) and attack metaknight while he can't do anything except dodge and time ledge grabs. Eventually SOMETHING will hit him. As for the attacks that require you to go off stage, admittedly most are bad ideas. But for characters with good recoveries the situation is almost no different than fighting a metaknight in the air, it is hard yet possible. You are overestimating the invulnerability advantage given to the planking metaknight. If you properly time your offstage attacks between ledge drops, the only advantage metaknight starts with is he has better attacks (and a slight recovery advantage depending on your character). This advantage starts as soon as the player picks metaknight, though. So it holds no real argument in this thread.

Remember that all MK has to do is hit up or down on the control stick with proper timing, not to mention that ledge invincibilty is fairly lenient, and MK can use specials to grab the ledge to deal with some attacks as well. MK stalling for 5-6 minutes doesn't seem that unrealistic. Likely hard, but easily do-able by top players.

Doesn't Ike's eruption work?

Only if you abuse the SA, the lag will get you punished otherwise.



Also, note that a properly stalling MK will only be vulnerable a jump's length below the ledge, and can stay invincible the entire time he's on the ledge by grabbing, dropping before invincibilty runs out, jumping up as is does, and becoming invincbile again as soon as MK even enters the ledge grab length and "locks on" to the ledge, so all those D-tilts and ground level hitboxes likely won't work.

 

[Veril]

Falling pound is the most effective anti-planking attack for Jigglypuff though not the only one. Pound has a very long lasting hitbox and has very high priority. N-air also has an insanely long-lasting sex-kick. F-air has a sex kick and can be a powerful stage spike. D-air has a fair amount of disjoint in front of Jigg's feet, making it a pretty safe choice to use out of a short hop.

Finally, though it will probably cost a stock, rest can always hit someone dropping off the ledge.

Summary: Jigglypuff cannot effectively be planked.

 

[B!squick]

Jigglypuff also has that amazing air mobility which is beat only by Yoshi.

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

I believe Ivysaur's bair can kinda hit past and slightly below the ledge...

 

[The Sauce Boss]

A vote/discussion topic was made flirting with the idea of banning/limiting planking. Clearly if the SBR thinks it's enough of a problem to see what everyone else thinks, you are the one underestimating it.

I personally believe it isn't really the few frames of invincibility that you get, but being able to stay off stage as metaknight that makes it broken. Don't get me wrong, the invincibility adds to it, but I don't think it is the deciding factor that "breaks" it. That was my argument. I wasn't arguing about planking as a whole.

Fight back with the absurd advantage of having invulnerability

MK who's at a strictly better position than himself thanks to being able to choose when to have invincibility.

This is what I thought was wrong. As soon as metaknight drops you can edge hug and take the "invulnerability advantage". So I stand by what I said.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

ZSS can downB kick for a stage spike

 

[Eddie G]

ZSS can downB kick for a stage spike

...what? O.o

 

[RP`]

Maybe I just suck at planking, but I tested Lucario's counter (down b), and if triggered Lucario should be able to hit the planker and the planker would be forced on the stage, but Lucario would fall beneath the stage but still able to get back up. Since Lucario would be in a bad position I don't think it is very viable.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

...what? O.o

ZSS is standing at a reasonable distance from the ledge, then presses downB, and activates the kick. This stage spikes the opponent and its fast too.

 

[Eddie G]

ZSS is standing at a reasonable distance from the ledge, then presses downB, and activates the kick. This stage spikes the opponent and its fast too.

Oh, my apologies lol. I had a momentary brain fart and thought I read Zelda before I replied.

 

[Kage Me]

Ivysaur can jump off the ledge and do a b-air. That move's fast enough for it to recover with just its second jump, and long enough to protect Ivy from counterattacks. D-tilt can also work, but it's tough to land.

 

[ph00tbag]

Also, note that a properly stalling MK will only be vulnerable a jump's length below the ledge, and can stay invincible the entire time he's on the ledge by grabbing, dropping before invincibilty runs out, jumping up as is does, and becoming invincbile again as soon as MK even enters the ledge grab length and "locks on" to the ledge, so all those D-tilts and ground level hitboxes likely won't work.

It doesn't work like in Melee. In Brawl, the moment you let go of the ledge, you forfeit all ledge invincibility. MK is vulnerable while he's falling and while he's jumping. Although it doesn't make much of a difference; if he does it right, he'll reach the peak of his jump high enough to grab the ledge, but low enough to avoid most moves that hit under the edge. Alternately, he can Dimensional Cape to the ledge, auto ledge snap, and only be vulnerable near the ledge for a few frames, but if you predict this, you can just edgehog him. Thus, the most dangerous time for MK (while he's rising) is the time when he has the most options, and can deal with attacks. This makes the most vulnerable times occur while he's falling, but he can generally cover himself with a uair.

ZSS can downB kick for a stage spike

This is so unsafe. If you miss or get hit, your only option to recover is boosted 2nd jump and tether. It's flashy and cool looking, but if you're already behind, you want to do stuff that's safe.


Also, can the "Zamus" in the OP get changed to ZSS? Zamus just looks dumb.

 

[Judge Judy]

For Mario, FLUDD works well for disrupting planking.

 

[Veggi]

FLUDD *****, lol.

If he attacks while FLUDD is going at him, you also get the FIHL advantage. Does anyone know if MK's unspaced aerials can be shield grabbed at the edge? Maybe pivot grabbed?

 

[1048576]

I stopped reading after you said fire stops planking.

You can grab theledge with invincibility from slightly below the ledge.

 

[MoonShoes]

Pits d-tilt can work as a spike...
Ness could use PK Cross as well, it works even better than Lucas' because when fully charged it goes slightly beneath where you launched it; granted this is slow, but it could lure them toward you.
Why does Samus' bombs have a question mark? They drop straight down and can send Samus upward when initially released, sending her out of harms way, they are stronger than people give them credit for, but may be slow.
Does Ivysaur's Nuetral b spike?

 

[Veggi]

But fire outlasts invincibilty and goes below the edge, dropping off would remove invincibilty right when released. Therefore they are vulnerable to the fire, right?

 

[XienZo]

It doesn't work like in Melee. In Brawl, the moment you let go of the ledge, you forfeit all ledge invincibility. MK is vulnerable while he's falling and while he's jumping. Although it doesn't make much of a difference; if he does it right, he'll reach the peak of his jump high enough to grab the ledge, but low enough to avoid most moves that hit under the edge. Alternately, he can Dimensional Cape to the ledge, auto ledge snap, and only be vulnerable near the ledge for a few frames, but if you predict this, you can just edgehog him. Thus, the most dangerous time for MK (while he's rising) is the time when he has the most options, and can deal with attacks. This makes the most vulnerable times occur while he's falling, but he can generally cover himself with a uair.

Whoa, seriously? I thought that if Olimar tethers on and pulls up and then immediatly drops down and tethers again, he'd have invincibilty left over.

 

[Veggi]

I heard that if Peach auto floats from grabbing the edge, she gets some invincibility. Not sure about that though.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

I stopped reading after you said fire stops planking.

You can grab theledge with invincibility from slightly below the ledge.

If you time it right it covers the edge so they can't grab it.

 

[ph00tbag]

Whoa, seriously? I thought that if Olimar tethers on and pulls up and then immediatly drops down and tethers again, he'd have invincibilty left over.

Maybe for the duration that you would otherwise be forced to stay on the ledge, but that can't be any more than 10 frames.

 

[LoyalSoldier]

I would actually like to see which of these moves are actually tournament feasible or in other words I would like to know if you could pull these off consistently without getting punished.

Also sure it sounds nice and all that Bowser might have an answer, but honestly who is really going to be playing Bowser at a major tournament? Even if you get the other player to stop planking you still have to deal with the land battle that will occur.

 

[B!squick]

but honestly who is really going to be playing Bowser at a major tournament?

Sliq, MrEh, and whoever else that plays Bowser in tournys would like a word with you.

And Bowser is a good CP for MK as they go even.

10facepalms!

 

[deepseadiva]

I heard that if Peach auto floats from grabbing the edge, she gets some invincibility. Not sure about that though.

Yep, Ledge Float Cancelling gives you some frames to do whatever you want. But you have to be able to conserve the float before grabbing the ledge, and the timing is pretty strict.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

This is so unsafe. If you miss or get hit, your only option to recover is boosted 2nd jump and tether. It's flashy and cool looking, but if you're already behind, you want to do stuff that's safe.


Also, can the "Zamus" in the OP get changed to ZSS? Zamus just looks dumb.

It's fast enough to prevent the opponents from reacting fast and it has invincibility frames in the start (1-12) and the knockback is immense. So if he jumps before you do it you get invincibility and otherwise the misformed hitbox will hit the opponent (good priority).

And yes, ZSS ftw

 

[Veggi]

So nair'ing off a ledge cancelled float might be a useable option. I know that floating under the ledge and using dair or nair works pretty well, so being invincible while doing it might be a good option. I might have to try it out though, it's sort of hard to decide if it's a good idea or not.

Also Shuttle Loop has real bad priority when it's not invincible, so does anyone know if there's a timing to putting a hit box out while he's recovering? If it works correctly, fire fox might work because I know it beats his shuttle loop at some point.

 

[Crow!]

Your arguments are incredibly vague and unconvincing. You basically say "time invulnerability perfectly" for everything. To start, that is not realistic. In my opinion the real trouble with planking is having to go off stage to fight metaknight, where you are likely to get gimped and he is not. Many of these attacks allow you to stay on stage (projectiles) and attack metaknight while he can't do anything except dodge and time ledge grabs. Eventually SOMETHING will hit him. As for the attacks that require you to go off stage, admittedly most are bad ideas. But for characters with good recoveries the situation is almost no different than fighting a metaknight in the air, it is hard yet possible. You are overestimating the invulnerability advantage given to the planking metaknight. If you properly time your offstage attacks between ledge drops, the only advantage metaknight starts with is he has better attacks (and a slight recovery advantage depending on your character). This advantage starts as soon as the player picks metaknight, though. So it holds no real argument in this thread.


I can't say I have experience seeing a link vs a planking metaknight, but to me bombs seem good enough to put him in the green. However, if you or someone else provides better arguments I am perfectly fine with changing it. All character colors were guessed with bias by me, so I am waiting for people to argue them for better accuracy.

I am reading the posts right now and will probably make some other changes people have pointed out.

First: don't put words in my mouth. I did NOT say time invulnerability "perfectly." Perfect timing is completely unnecessary; the window of safety is huge in comparison to the time during which MK can be hit, and sufficiently good timing could be achieved with only vague familiarity with the game.

MK has a huge number of jumps, and until he actually regrabs he is below the stage and untouchable (we'll deal with diving after him later). He can remain in that state for up to 6 seconds. With up-B, regrabbing the stage requires only about 1/10 of a second, and its hitbox protects him from most projectiles. To hit him while you are on the stage, you need an attack that gives the MK player less than 1/10 of a second of warning between when you start attacking/shooting and when the hitbox reaches the stage, AND it is strong enough to get through his attacks covering his return, AND you need to have the capability to repeat these attacks to maintain continuous stream of these powerful hitboxes at the ledge with smaller than a 1/10 second respite between consecutive hits for the full 6 seconds or so that he can safely hang out underneath the stage with his jumps alone. If not all these conditions are met, he can simply delay under the stage until the blind spot in the attacks arrives and then grab the ledge. The flame attacks, the closest things to this condition that exist, are so easy to see coming (the firebreathers have a second or so of lead in time), that punishing them is also trivial; upon seeing the setup, just up-B and stage roll, and you're behind Bowser/Charizard before the flame is even at the spot where you previously were.

Just in case my point isn't immediately obvious from the above analysis: the claim that spamming stuff at a MK using a ledgestall will eventually score a hit just isn't true. All MK needs to do is watch for the window of safety between your attacks and regrab; it is so easy that for an experienced player the probability of making a mistake is nearly 0. And that is the worst case scenario for MK. If the attack requires you to be near the edge, MK can usually also punish you for even trying, if he feels like it.

As for going off the stage yourself, as noted before, MK doesn't need any advance warning to regrab the ledge - to catch him in between ledge grabs, you would need to go from sufficiently far on the stage to be safe from MK to being off of the stage and starting to attack him within less than 1/10 of a second. No character is that fast. As a result, MK does get an invulnerability as he starts his fight with anyone who dived after him, if he thinks he even needs it.

You don't see videos of good MKs ledgestalling against Link because it's not necessary - even on the stage the Link boards decided the matchup was 20-80, IIRC. In casual play I have had the dubious honor of seeing a ledgestalling MK, and with the slow traveling speed of Link's projectiles, no amount of trying to fake out MK's timing would help - he just watched the projectiles and regrabbed in between. For reference, that player had just picked up MK a half week ago.

 

[Luigi player]

There are much more possibilities...

Some fsmashes hit characters on the ledge too (if they don't go down immediately, or maybe both get hit if the ledgecamper attacks too).

Falcos fsmash hits enemies on the ledge...
DKs fsmash can hit them and dsmash can stage spike.
Imo every character with a spike could just try to hit them. Ness' spike is really good for this.
Ness can also hit them with PK Fire. (with PK Flash too...)

If you can grab the ledge before your enemy grabs it again you can try to attack immediately (with a bair or whatever..) since you still have a few invincibility frames.

 

[B!squick]

Crow!, you forgot your [/end thread] tag.

 

[TLMSheikant]

There are much more possibilities...

Some fsmashes hit characters on the ledge too (if they don't go down immediately, or maybe both get hit if the ledgecamper attacks too).

Falcos fsmash hits enemies on the ledge...
DKs fsmash can hit them and dsmash can stage spike.
Imo every character with a spike could just try to hit them. Ness' spike is really good for this.
Ness can also hit them with PK Fire. (with PK Flash too...)

If you can grab the ledge before your enemy grabs it again you can try to attack immediately (with a bair or whatever..) since you still have a few invincibility frames.

U wont be hitting a good ledgecamper with a spike sorry but that just wont work. Neither will the angled fsmashes, because when ur ledgecamping, people wont stay there to watch how they eat a fsmash. They will leave the ledge before their invincibility runs out and regrab again. And I yet have to see a proyectile giving a planking mk, problems.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah the smash thing probably won't work often, but spiking them looks soo easy to me... what can they do? The can only get on the stage (roll, attack, normally). There, ledgecamping over. They risk their stock... and since you're above them you're in a better position.

 

[bobson]

Yeah the smash thing probably won't work often, but spiking them looks soo easy to me... what can they do? The can only get on the stage (roll, attack, normally). There, ledgecamping over. They risk their stock... and since you're above them you're in a better position.

Ledgedrop shuttle loop. Say goodbye to your stock.

 

[t3h n00b]

Cool thread. Not that this makes Falcon crazy good against ledgecampers, but runoff bair is his most effective way to counter ledgecampers (it stage spikes and is quick), besides dtaunt of course.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

* Ike
1.counter (down b)
2. dtilt

1. Counter won't work. First of all, the other guy could, you know, just not attack as Ike counters. Secondly, if he tries this off stage, he will most likely get edgehogged. Even if it does it, its very unlikely it will have enough knockback to keep him safe while aethering.

2. Dtilt = too slow if the planker has a clue about what he is doing, and can likely punish the lag after it.

Heck, Fsmash is safer then those two. It flys forwards 4 frames after you let go of the button as you charge it, it outranges all other attacks that can be done from the ledge besides projectiles, and hits slightly below the ledge.

 

[Ussi]

1. Counter won't work. First of all, the other guy could, you know, just not attack as Ike counters. Secondly, if he tries this off stage, he will most likely get edgehogged. Even if it does it, its very unlikely it will have enough knockback to keep him safe while aethering.

2. Dtilt = too slow if the planker has a clue about what he is doing, and can likely punish the lag after it.

Heck, Fsmash is safer then those two. It flys forwards 4 frames after you let go of the button as you charge it, it outranges all other attacks that can be done from the ledge besides projectiles, and hits slightly below the ledge.

Not DK's get up

 

[LoyalSoldier]

Sliq, MrEh, and whoever else that plays Bowser in tournys would like a word with you.

And Bowser is a good CP for MK as they go even.

10facepalms!

Is that why there is only 1 top8 finish on the last tournament report?