Blubba_Pinecone
Smash Ace
Speaking of recordings, wanting to improve, and other oh so important things, would I be able to pester anyone else into offering some critique?
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Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion
- Thread starter dablackpacman
- Start date
Bing
Smash Master
You're actually making the MU sound worse then it actually is. I find that the best options against Fox's are to create "Columns" by using your Projectiles. You want to force the other person to move where you want. Most players have the mindset of "I don't want to get hit" so by you throwing specific Projectiles in certain areas, you can force the other player to move into your hand. Generally it starts with a Boomerang (angled mid-high) into a relatively weak arrow. This forces the Fox to move through the projectiles to get to you, hopefully provided you use these correctly, the Fox will land within grab range or into spacing for something else.
Spamming Nairs are not the best tactic at all. Link's nair doesnt have the greatest knockback, therefore if you combine the fact that Fox is one of the faster characters with huge power and the fact that again, link's nair is more of a gimping/aerial out of shield tool. Its not the most effective option. If you have the chance, I'd even use Bair over it.
I messed up and didnt copy and paste everything. Skler had a very good post, so take that and remember it.
And to the guy who wanted a critique(Sorry I forget your tag) but I'll watch your videos when I get home, I'm at work and can't watch youtube/videos in general.
BRLNK88
Smash Ace
I can't buy anything you guys say until I SEE it executed.
The closest examples are HDL's friendlies against Lovage, which don't really count.
Until then its just words, like people saying Falco vs Icies is good for Falco on paper, and watching Fly Amanita clock Westballz.
I have yet to see anything that suggests Link's projectiles are THAT effective against Fox. HMW himself says Link needs to be more aerial heavy against spacies from watching Germ.
There are literally countless matches to suggest that Fox/Marth is very even, where are the Fox/Link matches?
The closest examples are HDL's friendlies against Lovage, which don't really count.
Until then its just words, like people saying Falco vs Icies is good for Falco on paper, and watching Fly Amanita clock Westballz.
I have yet to see anything that suggests Link's projectiles are THAT effective against Fox. HMW himself says Link needs to be more aerial heavy against spacies from watching Germ.
There are literally countless matches to suggest that Fox/Marth is very even, where are the Fox/Link matches?
Goast
Smash Journeyman
Y don't you just man up. geez...
Also I never said it was easy. It's your job to get good. srsly it took me 10 years to get good at chess. I just stuck with it and realized skill comes with experience, effort and maturity.
If you think spamming a single move is really effective... then you clearly have limited understanding of fox link and the smash metagame.
Dr. pp vs wobbles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU4gWwFk73k
ggs
Don't get me wrong Germ is good but man you need to educate yourself a bit before speaking. He's not the only link worth watching. esp against foxes
srsly why do you think we have a video archive on this board
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMyXkJlSks8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCdPjdT_Bzo
That reminds me... aren't you a marth player putting your "argument" on the link boards.
The reason I don't do trash like that is because it's kinda noobish.
Bing
Smash Master
You know, until this, I actually thought you had an idea of what you're talking about.
For starters. Fly is > Westballz. Nothing against Westballz, he's one of if not my favourite Falco. With that being said, Fly ***** Spacies. Plus thats only
Next we have the HDL vs Lovage friendlies you mentioned. A few things
1.) HDL and Lovage are on different Skill levels, yes, he's not going to fair too well especially in a matchup thats already heavily in Fox's Favour.
2.) They're friendlies therefore invalid for the most part
Yes, Link does need to be a bit aerial heavy. You can use Standing Projectiles for starters. you gotta Jump and throw. Plus in terms of Micro gameplay, Links Standing game is bad.
Next we have the fact that you somehow introduced comparing The Marth V Fox MU and the Link vs Fox MU. Do you have any idea how many more Competitive/respectable players use marth over Link? Like we just had the discussion, what Link has finished near the top in a major tournament. Skler said one in like 2007. Now look at Marth. Theres a lot more... plus Ones top tier the other mid tier... you can't compare that...
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Skler move to Canada and we'll play Melee all day
That said, none of this really disagrees with Skler's pot because in that post on projectiles vs spacies, he stated that they're mainly the go-to strategy if the Fox is being really patient (and probably trying to out-wait you). In which case I'd agree, because Link's straight approach is real easy to dance around if he doesn't do anything to disrupt or cut off movement areas. Lasers knocking over bombs presents a problem to some degree, IMO. But it's still a better plan than jumping in and Link is too slow (and can't grab characters out of the air very effectively) to play a dash dance game or movement camp back at them.
You made a good point about Fox switching off camping easily and then ramboing Link if he notices Link is trying to get his own projectiles online, but IMO that's what facilitates the effectiveness of Germ's boots & sword thing. Once you've convinced Fox to stop running around and rush you down instead, boots & sword priority becomes way better vs him and Link's low stage presence outside of his projectiles becomes less of a liability because combat becomes more centralized on a specific spot. A lot of beating Fox in general is just jerking him around. That said, I agree that Fox still wins even if he fights this way lol.
tl;dr Fox ***** Link and projectiles have a place vs him.
Bing's dumb but I just wanted to say that bear in mind HMW lives in WC and so does Germ. WC is notorious for having aggressive space animals. In which case, I would agree that you have to place a lot of emphasis on hitting them with your boots and/or sword because you just don't have the time to set up any sort of effective projectile zoning. Whether jab is the answer or not is debatable - I'll leave that to you Link players to decide.
That said, none of this really disagrees with Skler's pot because in that post on projectiles vs spacies, he stated that they're mainly the go-to strategy if the Fox is being really patient (and probably trying to out-wait you). In which case I'd agree, because Link's straight approach is real easy to dance around if he doesn't do anything to disrupt or cut off movement areas. Lasers knocking over bombs presents a problem to some degree, IMO. But it's still a better plan than jumping in and Link is too slow (and can't grab characters out of the air very effectively) to play a dash dance game or movement camp back at them.
You made a good point about Fox switching off camping easily and then ramboing Link if he notices Link is trying to get his own projectiles online, but IMO that's what facilitates the effectiveness of Germ's boots & sword thing. Once you've convinced Fox to stop running around and rush you down instead, boots & sword priority becomes way better vs him and Link's low stage presence outside of his projectiles becomes less of a liability because combat becomes more centralized on a specific spot. A lot of beating Fox in general is just jerking him around. That said, I agree that Fox still wins even if he fights this way lol.
tl;dr Fox ***** Link and projectiles have a place vs him.
Bing
Smash Master
:/
10 Charsssss
10 Charsssss
Blubba_Pinecone
Smash Ace
I've been trying to subtley hint at how ******** this discussion has gotten for a while now. Does it really need to continue? Agree to disagree or something already.
Also, thank you for the input Jackie. I'll have a thought out response to discuss once there's more input from anyone. Also, Bing, thank you on planning to take the time to help me. :3
Also, thank you for the input Jackie. I'll have a thought out response to discuss once there's more input from anyone. Also, Bing, thank you on planning to take the time to help me. :3
BRLNK88
Smash Ace
It's not my "job" to do anything, it's a ****ing GAME, I'll do whatever the **** I want.
I switched to Marth for tournaments not only because I can play him, but because he's a GOOD tournament character.
I have no intention of ever being a "low tier hero". My character needs to be good enough for most people to take him seriously.
One of the reason I did still with vBrawl for a while was because I mained Toon Link, look at where he is on the tier list...
Obviously you don't only spam nair... you're taking what I said too literally.
I meant nair is your most important tool in the MU.
PP is sort of a lot better than Wobbles... ggs
I use Germ in all my examples BECAUSE he is the best. Obviously there are other good Links out there.
Stop trying to put me down just to buff up your argument, read in between the lines.
Btw, Deva is a Brawl player now, and all the J666 set did is reinforce how bad Link has it against Fox. He played awesome, and SFAT still had his way with him.
Um no, I'm a Link player that uses Marth competitively.
Now you're just being a ****, especially after I complemented your smash knowledge.
>_>
For one thing, I ALREADY SAID the HDL/Lovage friendlies don't really count, why did you bring that up?
Secondly, Fly isn't that much better than Westballz. He's better, yes, but comparing them is still a contribution to the MU debate.
Finally, what does so many more Marth players existing tell you about Link's potential competitively?
The reason I brought that up is that all the video proof we have reinforces the accuracy of the Fox/Marth MU ratio. The only video proof we have of Fox/Link is that Fox ***** Link.
Goast
Smash Journeyman
hey there...
You seem to have some good fundamentals spacing, technical execution.
take my advice with a grain of salt but your shield / spotdodge game wasn't bad. I'd say maybe practicing out of shield techniques, but I actually spot dodge a lot successfully as long as I make good counter reads.
also even though it's fox I would say more projectiles are good because they can restrict approaches. a lot of times after you get the kill it's nice to throw a few bombs in the air and throw out your boomerang when you can.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Pinecone
Your throw game sucks
Your throw game sucks
Bing
Smash Master
I'm only going to say two things.
Firstly, the reason I mentioned the whole number of Marth players in comparison to the number of Link players is because there are so many more highly competitve Marth players so the video proof you're seeking is going to be more common. Like we've already discussed, there are quite a few talented Marth players and very few Links. The Proof you're looking for is going to be very hard to find
Secondly, I apologize for being a ****, I was in a ****ty mood and this whole conversation since I started talking on the Link boards again has been just ridiculous and annoying... and I'm not helping that.
Skler
Smash Master
Recent Link vs Fox tournament video: http://www.twitch.tv/dazwa/b/333873291 at 5 hours and 50 minutes. He starts the set off as Luigi (long story) and then I play against him. There are several grabs.
About Fox: Fox is in the top two of Link's worst matchups in game; why judge Link on this terrible matchup? I can still beat your run of the mill Fox, hell I can beat good players who play Fox and I am almost definitely not as good as I was before I went to college and stopped being able to play Melee with good people often.
Nobody thinks Link is some incredibly strong character, but he's not the reason anybody is losing tournament matches.
If somebody flys me to Apex I'll go MM a bunch of the best Fox players and get them all recorded. Then we can count how often they get grabbed.
KK, I accept your offer.
About Fox: Fox is in the top two of Link's worst matchups in game; why judge Link on this terrible matchup? I can still beat your run of the mill Fox, hell I can beat good players who play Fox and I am almost definitely not as good as I was before I went to college and stopped being able to play Melee with good people often.
Nobody thinks Link is some incredibly strong character, but he's not the reason anybody is losing tournament matches.
If somebody flys me to Apex I'll go MM a bunch of the best Fox players and get them all recorded. Then we can count how often they get grabbed.
KK, I accept your offer.
Blubba_Pinecone
Smash Ace
[COLLAPSE="Jackie"]I only watched the first one. You caught your worst habits already, so I won't repeat those. I would incorporate crouch canceling into your game a lot more. Aside from missing the grabs, you're not making much from your grabs. Most spacies like to tech in place at a low percent, so dthrow then fsmash both hits to punish their tech/missed tech. It's a pretty hard punish, so they'll tend to tech away after. You can be more creative from there based on their position on stage.
This part is hard to explain, so ignore this paragraph if it doesn't make sense. Your movement is a little weird, like left-right and a lot of up-down but not much diagonal. I would try to incorporate more subtle aerial movement for spacing.[/COLLAPSE]
Hmm, yeah I tend to forget about crouch canceling sometimes. There are a few other matches where I remember it and profit greatly from it, I'll be on the lookout to make sure I keep it in mind more often to try and learn more opportunities to use it.
I believe you are correct about my failure to capitalize on my grabs. That double Fsmash seems like a good idea to try out. About the tech, I think my weak grab game is partly stemming from weak oki game (not sure if Smash has its own term for oki). I'll be working on that as well. It seems that oki in this game is dependant on covering as many viable options at once, plus some well sprinkled yomi (in contrast to oki in say... BlazBlue, which is similar but more dependant on mechanical things).
Also, xD. Yeah, watching that video again I can see how that conslusion about my movement in general could be made. I'm not quite sure why I moved in that fashion so much that match, though in other matches I see myself moving less... tetris-y. I think I was finding it easier to be very precise about defensively spacing my air attacks by keeping horizontal movement to a minimum. Probably a result of Fox's abilities scaring me.
[collapse="Goast"]hey there...
You seem to have some good fundamentals spacing, technical execution.
take my advice with a grain of salt but your shield / spotdodge game wasn't bad. I'd say maybe practicing out of shield techniques, but I actually spot dodge a lot successfully as long as I make good counter reads.
also even though it's fox I would say more projectiles are good because they can restrict approaches. a lot of times after you get the kill it's nice to throw a few bombs in the air and throw out your boomerang when you can.[/collapse]
Thank you on the compliment. :3
Hmm, well, I guess I might be able to say my shielding and spotdodging of actual attacks isn't terrible, which is a good thing. What I was referring to however were the many instances where I may have say, whiffed an attack, and in fear of the consequences I will shield or spotdodge unneccesarily when I could be doing something else. Also, somewhat of a differernt subject, but I also want to remember to tilt my shield when needed more often, like on a platform above Marth. Oh, and shield-dropping through platforms. I can do it consistently when I remember it exists and I'm not spazzing about pressure or whatever.
Projectiles are such a weird tool against Fox, he really makes you question when they're appropiate. I'll try experimenting with them a bit more to see if I can learn anything.
[collapse="KirbyKaze"]Pinecone
Your throw game sucks[/collapse]
xD. Thank you; and yes, yes it does. I gathered that from Jackie's advice. Like I said, will definitely be working on that.
Alright, so my to-do list for improvement for now based off your guys' input is grab-game (plus Smash oki), maybe some projectile experimenting, remembering some useful options (like crouch canceling), and the shield/spotdodge stuff.
Thanks for the help guys, I really do appreciate it! :3 And as always, if anyone else still wants to pick apart my gameplay, feel free.
This part is hard to explain, so ignore this paragraph if it doesn't make sense. Your movement is a little weird, like left-right and a lot of up-down but not much diagonal. I would try to incorporate more subtle aerial movement for spacing.[/COLLAPSE]
Hmm, yeah I tend to forget about crouch canceling sometimes. There are a few other matches where I remember it and profit greatly from it, I'll be on the lookout to make sure I keep it in mind more often to try and learn more opportunities to use it.
I believe you are correct about my failure to capitalize on my grabs. That double Fsmash seems like a good idea to try out. About the tech, I think my weak grab game is partly stemming from weak oki game (not sure if Smash has its own term for oki). I'll be working on that as well. It seems that oki in this game is dependant on covering as many viable options at once, plus some well sprinkled yomi (in contrast to oki in say... BlazBlue, which is similar but more dependant on mechanical things).
Also, xD. Yeah, watching that video again I can see how that conslusion about my movement in general could be made. I'm not quite sure why I moved in that fashion so much that match, though in other matches I see myself moving less... tetris-y. I think I was finding it easier to be very precise about defensively spacing my air attacks by keeping horizontal movement to a minimum. Probably a result of Fox's abilities scaring me.
[collapse="Goast"]hey there...
You seem to have some good fundamentals spacing, technical execution.
take my advice with a grain of salt but your shield / spotdodge game wasn't bad. I'd say maybe practicing out of shield techniques, but I actually spot dodge a lot successfully as long as I make good counter reads.
also even though it's fox I would say more projectiles are good because they can restrict approaches. a lot of times after you get the kill it's nice to throw a few bombs in the air and throw out your boomerang when you can.[/collapse]
Thank you on the compliment. :3
Hmm, well, I guess I might be able to say my shielding and spotdodging of actual attacks isn't terrible, which is a good thing. What I was referring to however were the many instances where I may have say, whiffed an attack, and in fear of the consequences I will shield or spotdodge unneccesarily when I could be doing something else. Also, somewhat of a differernt subject, but I also want to remember to tilt my shield when needed more often, like on a platform above Marth. Oh, and shield-dropping through platforms. I can do it consistently when I remember it exists and I'm not spazzing about pressure or whatever.
Projectiles are such a weird tool against Fox, he really makes you question when they're appropiate. I'll try experimenting with them a bit more to see if I can learn anything.
[collapse="KirbyKaze"]Pinecone
Your throw game sucks[/collapse]
xD. Thank you; and yes, yes it does. I gathered that from Jackie's advice. Like I said, will definitely be working on that.
Alright, so my to-do list for improvement for now based off your guys' input is grab-game (plus Smash oki), maybe some projectile experimenting, remembering some useful options (like crouch canceling), and the shield/spotdodge stuff.
Thanks for the help guys, I really do appreciate it! :3 And as always, if anyone else still wants to pick apart my gameplay, feel free.
are you still in NH? What happened to senior pine?I wish people near me actually played Melee
Goast
Smash Journeyman
I can say for myself at least when I started off playing link I played super passive because his approach options seem scary on paper... (I Kinda stayed in one place, underutilized dd techniques and wavedashing hoping opportunities created themselves). but I began improving when I said I'm gonna play the game by executing my best moves, reads, and commitments. When you throw your best stuff out there in an unfavorable matchup... you'll be surprised what you can do. the worst thing that can happen to you is you lose... I still lose a lot... but not nearly as bad as I used to.
also we should start a donation to get Skler to apex... i'm serious about that.
also we should start a donation to get Skler to apex... i'm serious about that.
J.Shadows
Smash Champion
I remember Skler and I were supposed to team back when I sucked (pound 4) but I didn't go :o
Bing
Smash Master
Double Link... this must happen...
Actually one day I want to team with Internet Explorer. Bing + InternetExplorer. Sounds like a disaster.
Actually one day I want to team with Internet Explorer. Bing + InternetExplorer. Sounds like a disaster.
Goast
Smash Journeyman
Skler
Smash Master
Team name = Microsoft makes the best software
Bing
Smash Master
I would go Link just cause . My link is pretty bad but I wouldn't even care XD
Bigglestheman
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2011
- Messages
- 136
I think it would be better if we had a Link main named Google.I would go Link just cause . My link is pretty bad but I wouldn't even care XD
Looticforgothispassword
Smash Ace
Tried to overuse the dsmash against fox in some practice freindlies the other day, seemed really effective as fox ends up in a tech chase situation where you can continue dsmashing, you can CC his getup attack too which makes it easier to counter all his options, just crouch close to him and wait for him to do something. It was most effective on YS but worked surprisingly well on FD and DL64.
Bing
Smash Master
Well you see, Internet Explorer is a bad browser. Bing is considered to be one of the lesser Search Engines. Therefore, Internet Explorer teaming with Google doesn't fit.
Btw Pinecone, I watched your videos, I feel you need to space better and use more projectiles. Other then that, everythings pretty well been covered.
Skler
Smash Master
It's ok, I sucked at Pound 4 too.I remember Skler and I were supposed to team back when I sucked (pound 4) but I didn't go :o
We'd of made a good team.
Dan Salvato
IE
Skler
Smash Master
Let's make this happen, Link players.
J.Shadows
Smash Champion
I would help but I'm broke hardly have enough to pay for myself lol. But if you do make it we should double Link teams mm random people for like a dollar each.
Skler
Smash Master
We've missed you too.
I'd do some Link team shenanigans at Apex if I make it. No idea how the fund will go, good thing whipping up a Link costume (with my previous experience!) only takes a few hours, a green pillow case, copious amounts of duct tape and tin foil, and some sharpies. This time I'll also be sporting a classy tunic, but that's the easiest part of the whole thing.
Bigglestheman
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2011
- Messages
- 136
Better be a Zora Tunic encase of an emergency during your travel and you wind up in Water you'll be invincible!
Skler
Smash Master
But what if the bus catches fire? Maybe I should bring all the tunics.
Bigglestheman
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2011
- Messages
- 136
Good idea! Now get some golden/silver gauntlets so you can lift the boss if it does hit water and save all the people and by doing that become a hero and the bus company awards you some unlimited ride pass. The red tunic also makes this possible by running in the fire and saving everyone!
GL I will soon see you at one of these tournaments, I'm trying to get back at it. Seems like we lost a bunch of links in the past few years..
The GERM
Smash Ace
Aaaaaand I'm back, hi guys Had to take it slow the last few years for college/work/my house and all that other grown man sh**. Went to my first tournament yesterday in a while, mad fun, forgot how much I love this game and that little blonde man lol.
Had to take it slow the last few years for college/work/my house and all that other grown man sh**. Went to my first tournament yesterday in a while, mad fun, forgot how much I love this game and that little blonde man lol.
Looticforgothispassword
Smash Ace
Nice! More great Link mains back in action!
The GERM
Smash Ace
I was thinking about it, I guess we'll see how much my xmas bonus is this year.
Problem2
Smash Champion
I was coming to announce that I think I'm going to focus more on Link again instead of random various characters, when all the sudden the GERM posts in the Link boards!! Could this be a sign for me? :o
Skler
Smash Master
We should play some Smash Brothers together, possibly on a team if we both end up at Apex.Aaaaaand I'm back, hi guys
That'd be swell.