Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion

[SAUS]

@MR_Scribbles
I always banned battlefield when I used to play in tournaments (I was quite a bit younger), but now I'd ban FD against pretty much every character because I am bad with no platforms. Link can really punish people trapped on platforms. Maybe I should leave FD in for the slower and more floaty characters like marth and peach though. It's been a long time since I've played in a tournament.

 

[SYickX]

I feel like Link can get utterly absurd combos on FD off of one solid hit.
I've walked Falcon, Fox and Falco almost all the way across the stage and Marth/Peach just can't get to ground if you cover their options properly.

My only problem with FD is the harsh inward curve of the wall. Makes for harder hookshot recoveries.

Also, if you haven't tested it, that yellow line at the bottom is the end of the wall.

 

[MR_Scribble]

FD against Sheik, Falcon, Fox (if hes good) and Falco is just crap, tho I can see why so people might like space animals on FD if you get some good reads you can punish hard.
honestly I don't mind battlefield I just see a lot of other Links hating it.
But defiantly have to agree with Syickx fox/falco/falcon/sheik (marth?) can punish you harder off one good hit on FD
Also tips on the Puff and Peach match up? im guessing Nair Nair Nair Nair and more Nair and projectiles when at a distance and never grab unless clearly setup?

 

[SYickX]

All of those characters punish Link super hard everywhere. I've only every had a problem with Sheik on FD, but that is my worst matchup and, arguably, Link's worst matchup.

Overall, I prefer having platforms. I only really want to go to FD when my opponent can't deal with projectiles well, or if my opponent gives up their double-jump too easily.

 

[SAUS]

Peach and Puff matchup is projectile camp and you can actually get combos with some of Link's faster arials - like back-air - since they will float up a little more. Up-airs can really crush floaty characters because they can't get around you very quickly. You can juggle them and deal lots of damage. Up-air also kills them at a fairly low percantage which is nice. Against jiggs, I basically don't grab ever. If you miss, you are dead.

The main reason I like stages with platforms are for moving around. I have a lot more options for moving patterns. On top of that, camping under a platform with up-airs can be deadly - sometimes getting an 80% damage combo because they can't go anywhere. They also protect you from attacks from above, so they help you zone out the opponent (an attack from above the platform is a free hit for you).

 

[SYickX]

Nothing feels better than making a Peach hate your 'rangs.

Both of those characters like to zone their large hitboxes (fair for Peach and bair for Jiggs). Link's bombs can take care of this rather well most of the time. Faster opponents will force us to out-space their moves with our own fair. (This is much easier on Peach than Puff, and not particularly easy on Peach.)

Also, abuse the fact that Link is vertically faster than Jiggs and horizontally faster than a Peach weaving around projectiles. This leads to more bombs and more advantageous situations for better shots are uair and dair. Sweet delicious uair and dair.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

My two biggest advice vs puff is fight for centerstage and CC a lot, this way you avoid a lot of rests and bad recovery situations. The other stuff is pretty much obvious(i.e. throw stuff, don't make moves that lag which is already mentioned).

VS peach you want to be a lot more OoS reliant than usual imo, this is cause you can lure her into fairing and dsmashing your sheild, you light sheild it and get off a grab, throws a bomb OoS. You can also get her out of float after a while by creating a waiting game this way where she starts to make those longer floats to pressure you into a mistake, at these times you can just jump right out and attack with nairs, fairs and bombs. Peach don't like being at the ledge or above you, so force her there.

Also, platform camping, both of the jump slow enough for you to simply react and jump away when you are at the top platform.

 

[SAUS]

What do you guys do against fox? Here are some of my problems:
1) I find it hard to get the time to pull out a bomb. I often find myself pulling one out, and half-way through the animation I get punished badly even though he was quite far away.
2) If he gets too close to me, and I don't already have a bomb, I get "stuck". Are there good close-range options for fighting him?
3) I can't combo him until around 40%. I often find that I'll back-air into down-smash combo when he is at low damage, but then he is just on the ground and I am in my attack still, so I get punished bad. Should I just do nothing after the back-air? Maybe throw out some jabs?

 

[SYickX]

I almost always cover my bomb pulls with 'rangs. That slows Fox down, so you can safely get a bomb. Nair and fair are pretty good for building walls to discourage Fox from running in. Watch is movement carefully and experiment. You'll find the bomb spots soon. Play against Falcon is the best way to practice pulling bombs safely.

Once you're under shine pressure and the Fox is good, there no safe out of shield option. I almost always roll. I'll toss in a spin once in a while, just to keep Fox honest.
You never want to be close to a Fox you aren't hitting as any character that isn't Fox or Falco. Keep at least a fair's length from him all the time.
Again, nair will discourage his approach.

1 bomb, 1 'rang, double fsmash

That's over 40% almost always. Fsmash has a good bit of range and isn't all that slow. It just about combos at 0% on most characters, and is reliable just over 0% on most Fox players. Cross-up a good fsmash early, and the combo's are in your favor.

Never bair grounded opponents at low percent. They will duck-cancel and they will punish you.
One way to get around that is to jump before you land after the bair. The timing is a little tight, but it doesn't take long to learn.

 

[SAUS]

I almost always cover my bomb pulls with 'rangs. That slows Fox down, so you can safely get a bomb. Nair and fair are pretty good for building walls to discourage Fox from running in. Watch is movement carefully and experiment. You'll find the bomb spots soon. Play against Falcon is the best way to practice pulling bombs safely.

Once you're under shine pressure and the Fox is good, there no safe out of shield option. I almost always roll. I'll toss in a spin once in a while, just to keep Fox honest.
You never want to be close to a Fox you aren't hitting as any character that isn't Fox or Falco. Keep at least a fair's length from him all the time.
Again, nair will discourage his approach.

1 bomb, 1 'rang, double fsmash

That's over 40% almost always. Fsmash has a good bit of range and isn't all that slow. It just about combos at 0% on most characters, and is reliable just over 0% on most Fox players. Cross-up a good fsmash early, and the combo's are in your favor.

Never bair grounded opponents at low percent. They will duck-cancel and they will punish you.
One way to get around that is to jump before you land after the bair. The timing is a little tight, but it doesn't take long to learn.

Thanks for the tips. I know how to jump out of short-hop back-air I guess rather than looking at the options out of back-air I should look at other options as opposed to the back-air in the first place.

I do like the bomb/boomerang into forward-smash, but I feel like it's a little unreliable. I still get it quite often, but sometimes I need to do other stuff.

I find if I throw my boomerang in a neutral state, fox can just charge at me with neutral-air or down-air to block the boomerang and then he's in my face while I'm pulling a bomb or still in the boomerang animation.

I feel like rolling out of pressure will probably get me punished badly. It just feels like it's the only option.

I know a long time ago I used to use The Germ's back-air into grab stuff, but then my friend would just side step dodge it and I'd get punished for it. Does this work at certain damages against fox/falco? I only seem to be able to get it against captain falcon and marth consistently. Sometimes Peach if I back-air at like 0 damage. Other than that, I do back-air down-smash most of the time which doesn't work on spacies below %40ish.

I'll probably just mess around with more neutral-airs and forward-airs. I think I shy away from forward-airs because there are so many captain falcons that I play against and it seems to kind of suck against him (trading with knees means I lose badly).

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Some more ideas and input on the fox matchup.

You can catch a lot of fox aproaches with well timed uptilts and upsmashes or cc dsmashes. Try to do nairs and land behind him then do some OoS option quickly as most foxes do(they tend to have bad patience) and you will be able to land a hit. FJ nairs are great IMO vs fox, they can give you kills out of nothing, when spaced correctly they can't really hit you and you get a lot of mind games from them, double nair, DJ fair, DJ nair, upair, and crossovers, and a fox will not like to jump into it as it will screw up their pacing and give you a window of momentum and a chance to go for a combo.

Fairs are great, don't trade them, its a spacing tool, and thus you should use that range (just about the same range as marths fair, just not as quick and covering as much, still a good move) to outrange your opponent with them. A traded fair is generally a failed fair against any character but marth and ganon. Fairs leads to combos and kills, you should use them IMO.

Also use jabs, they have the same benefit as nairs to mess with a fox's pacing, catch him as he jumps and his other inputs is a screw up which you can punish. Catch him as he lands and he might go into shield from a failed L-cancel.

And the most important, your punish game must be extreme, link has the potential to convert a hit to a kill vs fox, you must use that potential. You cannot pressure the fox, but he will screw up, even the best fox does do mistakes, and when he does, it must hurt.

Bomb to forward smash can be don OoS and is to me highly relieable as it is a safe try, bomb connects you get 45% bomb doesn't and you can respace get a new position and breath for a little while. Bomb OoS will be your best defensive option the whole match.

Basically this is a tough matchup to learn, but also one of the most satisfying matchups to win when you know it, it kinda makes link look top tier, though he isn't, when you do.

 

[SYickX]

Bair to grab isn't very reliable. Link can't gain frame advantage on bair.
You almost always want to throw the 'rang in the air and try to use it on the way back if it doesn't connect.

With Falcon, you want to stay right on top of him once you get in. He doesn't good options out of shield and Link can ruthlessly combo him with a little foresight. Fair should be done while retreating against Falcon. Link likes to get the hurtbox on his hand a little too far out in many of his attacks.

Usually, my goal against the character is to keep them on the ground at a distance that's safe for me and bad for them.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

If bair connects you might be able to use their landing lag, maybe? This works for fair and nair vs fox so maybe with bair too? (rarely use the move for pressure, maybe should start using it as a mixup, dunno, )

 

[SAUS]

Thanks for the tips guys. My main problem is that I haven't had a good fox in my area that I frequently play against for many years. There is a guy I haven't met yet that plays fox and I want to make sure my Link is ready. I'll probably play him sometime this week.

If bair connects you might be able to use their landing lag, maybe? This works for fair and nair vs fox so maybe with bair too? (rarely use the move for pressure, maybe should start using it as a mixup, dunno, )

I find the back-air into grab works on captain falcon at a bit of damage and marth at very low damage. However, I've never managed to make it consistent against fox or falco. My guess is that it just doesn't work on them.

I like the back air because the 2 hits make it hard for them to punish out of shield. You can easily land behind them with it and if you don't fast fall, you can even jump out of it while short-hopping. At low damage, if you throw out a short-hop neutral-air, you can get punished easily. That's not the case with the back-air. Main thing is that it has very low priority in comparison to neutral-air.

I find back-air to also be awesome an edge-guard tool. You use it at the same times you would use a neutral-air: jump off the edge and hit them with it - make sure it's the second hit with the back-air. It has more knock-back than a soft-nair so it can kill a little better.

 

[Corona]

Who is this person!?!?

No recent Link video I've watched has ever given me the greatest sense of hope as well as the crushing sense of defeat for our hero. Unbelievable.

 

[Bigglestheman]

It's Zoro.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Ah, so sad, it was like he realized all of a sudden it was PeePee he played against.

 

[SAUS]

That poor link. It looks like he got really nervous or something. I feel like he dropped some combos though, even when he was winning.

 

[SAUS]

Is it feasible to up-smash out of shield against a spacie that is shuffle shining your shield? I think if they use their aerial right away, they will hit you, but if they do that, then they are vulnerable to short-hop neutral-air. Maybe fox's down-air is safe because of the multi-hits, but what about falco/fox's other aerials?

 

[cjugs]

yes you can but it's only useful if hes behind you, or if his spacing sucks which he's probably figuring he doesn't need to space because you're playing link. Really other than shine oos if you pressure perfect they can't get out at all in theory almost no one accomplishes this during a real match you're smartest idea would be to shield DI up so they miss thier l cancel then upsmash or upb keep in mind the hitbox for upb behind you takes longer so try to upb oos only if they are in front of you.,

 

[cjugs]

@MR_Scribbles
I always banned battlefield when I used to play in tournaments (I was quite a bit younger), but now I'd ban FD against pretty much every character because I am bad with no platforms. Link can really punish people trapped on platforms. Maybe I should leave FD in for the slower and more floaty characters like marth and peach though. It's been a long time since I've played in a tournament.

depends on what character you're up against usually you want to go to a small stage forcing them to fight you fod ys i would pick those stages against maybe falcon fox doc jigs other than that DL kongo jungle places with a high ceiling where being good at DIing will help you live longer i would pick that against falco bf is a very good FF stage you'd be wise to stay away from that one.

 

[SAUS]

yes you can but it's only useful if hes behind you, or if his spacing sucks which he's probably figuring he doesn't need to space because you're playing link. Really other than shine oos if you pressure perfect they can't get out at all in theory almost no one accomplishes this during a real match you're smartest idea would be to shield DI up so they miss thier l cancel then upsmash or upb keep in mind the hitbox for upb behind you takes longer so try to upb oos only if they are in front of you.,

Ya I'll have to test it out. Playing some people tonight so I will report my results (assuming there are fox and/or falco players). I might just test it out with my friend before other people show up.

depends on what character you're up against usually you want to go to a small stage forcing them to fight you fod ys i would pick those stages against maybe falcon fox doc jigs other than that DL kongo jungle places with a high ceiling where being good at DIing will help you live longer i would pick that against falco bf is a very good FF stage you'd be wise to stay away from that one.

Ya small stages seem to be better for fighting most of the fast characters. Having less room leaves them within range of my attacks so their speed can't be abused as much. When I fight slower/floaty/spacing characters (peach, puff, marth), I think the bigger stages are better since their approaches are weaker against projectiles.

 

[SAUS]

Played last night and it does not appear that link can up-smash out of shield against spacies pressuring. It comes out too slow and if you spam it and cross your fingers, you get combod. I think it can work against full jumps if they do that, but then you can just up-air. Maybe it lower % it can be useful.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Ya small stages seem to be better for fighting most of the fast characters. Having less room leaves them within range of my attacks so their speed can't be abused as much. When I fight slower/floaty/spacing characters (peach, puff, marth), I think the bigger stages are better since their approaches are weaker against projectiles.

I agree with this to 100%, I usually pick YS and BF vs fox, falco, CF. And pick DL and PS vs marth, jiggs, peach, doc, sheik.

 

[SAUS]

Does anyone find battlefield to be a bad link stage? I used to always hate it because the stage shape gimps tether recoveries, but I've started to find that it is a good Link stage and has not been a problem. It also gimps space animal recoveries so there's that. What are other people's thoughts?

What do you guys do out of shield against spacies? I don't shield often, but when I have to, what should I do to escape? Is it realistic to wavedash out of shield or is Link just too fat for that?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I find BF great, I rarely counterpick it though since it is the second best in most situations where it is good(My main picks are either DL or YS depending on strategy, campy contra aggressive). What makes it shine is that it support both a campy playstyle that works on DL and PS and the more aggressive that works on YS and FoD. As for the recovery its not an issue for me anymore, I can tether BF ledges just as any other ledge. I also find the shape of BF to screw a whole lot with other characters and gives you a lot of gimping opportunities. Just get them under the stage and then edgehog. I actually think that all stages help Link in some certain matchup, given you can play according to a certain game plan.

When I play luigi, doc and mario, I find BF to be my best choice.

 

[SYickX]

I also consider BF a good Link stage. He doesn't lose recovery options, they just change and become less intuitive.

For Link's OoS game, I'm starting to experiment with shield-drop uair on platforms. Uair is one of Link's fastest moves, and we all know how valuable landing one can be. While on the ground, there is technically nothing you can do against a perfect spacie. I almost always roll. The real solution is, never be under pressure while in shield.

Keep them away with your wood, powder and steel.

 

[Heero Yuy]

How do you guys drop from a platform without fastfalling? I want to do this with a Fair, but Link's Fair is way too laggy to do it so easily.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Be more gentle, it's kinda like the difference between doing a smash and a tilt.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I'll note that I'm trying to do this in P:M where the buttons seem more sensitive. That's kinda what I've been trying to do all along but I only nail it about 1/5 times. Will work on it more tomorrow when I get home.

 

[bagsntrane]

tap the stick backwards

 

[cjugs]

Played last night and it does not appear that link can up-smash out of shield against spacies pressuring. It comes out too slow and if you spam it and cross your fingers, you get combod. I think it can work against full jumps if they do that, but then you can just up-air. Maybe it lower % it can be useful.

Does anyone find battlefield to be a bad link stage? I used to always hate it because the stage shape gimps tether recoveries, but I've started to find that it is a good Link stage and has not been a problem. It also gimps space animal recoveries so there's that. What are other people's thoughts?

What do you guys do out of shield against spacies? I don't shield often, but when I have to, what should I do to escape? Is it realistic to wavedash out of shield or is Link just too fat for that?

I don't think it's possible against fox, but i know that it works against falco falcon and characters taller than fox. He is to short to avoid it. Battlefield is a bad link stage in my opinion it's a pretty big stage so his platform game isn't as good, also he is pretty slow to move about the bigger the stage usually the worse it is for link. However there is a trade off in this stage i think because fox falco have more predictable recoveries here, but you lose your ability to recovery to the top of your abilities. So if you are playing a fox or sheik that is edge guarding you hard then battlefield might just be for you but you are going to have to blow you opponents mind offstage to win here because like i said it's a big stage so it's a matter of if you are comfortable. i would still recommend Fod YS or FD like i said unless i am playing someone who has a strong edguard game vs link.

 

[Yodan]

For Link's OoS game, I'm starting to experiment with shield-drop uair on platforms. Uair is one of Link's fastest moves, and we all know how valuable landing one can be. While on the ground, there is technically nothing you can do against a perfect spacie. I almost always roll. The real solution is, never be under pressure while in shield.

If you uair with link on the right frame during the beginning of the drop animation while hitting anything (person or shield) the animation cancels and leaves you still standing on the platform. I'm very new to playing around with link but it's a good tool to try and use for pressure.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

If anyone pulls of a shield drop plattform cancel uair or nair I'll give them my very own "Tech skill of the year"-award, it's a fine prize with lots of prestige.

(Fineprint to long to fit in message and thus not included, but will be sent on request by direct mail within a years notice. Receiver pays postage)

 

[OGPlumber]

Does link have a spike?

 

[Bigglestheman]

Closest you have is the spin attack which is a semi-spike.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Dtilt is a meteor.

 

[SYickX]

If anyone pulls of a shield drop plattform cancel uair or nair I'll give them my very own "Tech skill of the year"-award, it's a fine prize with lots of prestige.

(Fineprint to long to fit in message and thus not included, but will be sent on request by direct mail within a years notice. Receiver pays postage)

Save that for when I SD>bomb set>Uair.


....in 2017 or so when my fingers can do that.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Only if the uair is platform canceled.

 

[cptjiggles69]

i was thinking of using link as a secondary. I main ganon , but i also like link and would like to use him against campy players