Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion

[BRLNK88]

Yeah, Marth isn't a good teams character.
Pew Pew U is the only one whom I've seen make it work, and maybe Tai.
M2K always goes Fox or Sheik.

As for Link, I could see him being a good team mate if he's teamed with a faster character like Fox, Falcon or Sheik, but not really in general. His projectiles can get in the way, and he's still slow.
On a side note, I feel the same way about Ganon in teams. Controls space so well and gets easy kills, but still so slow and big, and needs a fast character to help control the tempo.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Marth can have trouble killing, yes, but its worse for Link.
Link has some strong kill moves, but they're slow and predictable.

Bomb->dair, dtilt->dair, tech chase on platform to dair, utilt->dair, uair, uair->dair, bair->dair, grab -> upB, grab -> dair(to land the grab you need a tech chase or some landlag somewhere), force them to the ledge and sheild->UpB or Fsmash as they get up to cover all options. Give me an hour and a can create a essay-long post just about links options for killing, these arent bad and he also got some early kills like nair to nair, or if you play NTSC landing weak hit UpB.

Peach is just one character, and the MU is still slightly in Marth's favor. If Marth can close on Peach he wrecks her. Kind of like when he faces Link, if he gives away space he can get eaten alive by projectiles, except Link is slow and has bad frame data, so its easier to close on him. Peach's nair > all of Link's OOS options.

Peach's nair has some undesireble feats, lack of range as well as lack of duration comes to mind mostly. Every move in melee has some weakness and most have some advantage, making almost everything worth using on most characters. If it werent like this, this game would feel and play more like brawl, lol. I dont think marth wins against peach.

Marth can competently deal with spacies on a consistent basis, Link can't. Marth is fast enough to deal with Falco's pew pew, pew pew shuts down Link's camping game and forces him to always be on a different level, big problem on stages like FD.

As for recovery, yes, Link has more options, but he falls much faster and has smaller jumps.
Once he's sent into tumble, he's basically screwed. No bomb jumps, no hookshot. Even when he does connect his grapple a lot of characters can just drop down and hit him out unless you're super quick.
Marth can at least get boosts from side-B if he's sent into tumble, even if his up-B is predictable.

Learn to wiggle, use your airdodge, bombjump early so you can recover high, the hell, link has so many options its not fair. There is no fool proof way to edgeguard him. In some cases you can turn it around and get the gimp yourself instead. I dunno how you can be negative about links recovery. Its good.

 

[Bigglestheman]

Some people just like to *****.

 

[BRLNK88]

Give me an hour and a can create a essay-long post just about links options for killing, these arent bad and he also got some early kills like nair to nair, or if you play NTSC landing weak hit UpB.

lol, I'm not denying Link has plenty of options, its a question of how good those options really are. Nothing Link has is as good or reliable as Fox' usmash, Falco's fsmash or Falcon's knee. He doesn't have a fast, reliable kill move, everything MUST be set-up. If you have good spacing, Marth's tipper fsmash is more rewarding even.

Learn to wiggle, use your airdodge, bombjump early so you can recover high, the hell, link has so many options its not fair. There is no fool proof way to edgeguard him. In some cases you can turn it around and get the gimp yourself instead. I dunno how you can be negative about links recovery. Its good.

Yeah, its good, but its also slow. To get the most out of it at times you have to be off-stage for a long time, which gives your opponent plenty of time to prepare an edgeguard. Even with all his options, its not hard for spacies, Sheik and Marth to edgeguard Link. No, I'm not just *****ing, I'm making observations.

 

[Goast]

Some people just like to *****.

Yeah this is getting borderline spammy.

lol, I'm not denying Link has plenty of options, its a question of how good those options really are.

They're as good as the players ability to use them case closed. Some of these comments really belong in the marth boards. They're kinda a disservice to top link players and nonconstructive to developing players actually trying to learn the character (like myself).

I've had some glimmer of success against super good players in really garbage matchups so I know it can be done with some actual efforts. Gotta take those lumps but it makes you better for it.

To those other noobs out there don't give up on link. He's a good character with lots of uncovered potential. Don't listen to this guy! He's a marth player lol

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

I got my plane tickets for Apex!

Important shiz yo.

 

[Bigglestheman]

This is now a FLaco thread.

 

[Bing]

Seriously? Is this debate happening?
Yes Link has options, just like every character does, unfortunately, about half the cash has better options. This is why he's low-mid tier. Yeah, Marth recovery is kind of bad, but I'd say its actually better then Links. Sure Link has more options, but the fact is that he is still highly vulnerable in most of his option, at least Marth moves fast with his Dolphin, Link takes a few seconds, why is Vital.

I see it's been mentioned that Unlike Marth, Link has recover high, Yeah thats great, unfortunately Link being about the other guy is BAD thing. Especially when like 60%+ of players use Spacies. Geez, above a fox player? Forget about that stock unless you can SDI like a champ.

I'm sorry but Lootic, you're wrong. I may not be a Link main, but I do use him quite a bit, and I do play against quite a few Link players, and I'm sorry but your arguments are invalid.

Anyways I feel like Im coming off as a ****...

WHATS YOUR FAVOURITE LINK OUTFIT? MINES BLUE

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

flaco is just a myth.

while we're at it, let's get some Norse in here. now a Yggdrasil thread.

also, green dabess. white (not lavender) after that.

 

[Bigglestheman]

Yeah this is getting borderline spammy.

In Hawaii spam is quite popular.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

lol, I'm not denying Link has plenty of options, its a question of how good those options really are. Nothing Link has is as good or reliable as Fox' usmash, Falco's fsmash or Falcon's knee. He doesn't have a fast, reliable kill move, everything MUST be set-up. If you have good spacing, Marth's tipper fsmash is more rewarding even.

Granting how easy and safe it is to land the moves you want to combo from, I cant really comprehend the problem, its like landing ftilt->fair with sheik. Whats the hard or unreliable part about bomb->dair for example?

Yeah, its good, but its also slow. To get the most out of it at times you have to be off-stage for a long time, which gives your opponent plenty of time to prepare an edgeguard. Even with all his options, its not hard for spacies, Sheik and Marth to edgeguard Link. No, I'm not just *****ing, I'm making observations.

Its in no way slow if you compare to other characters, sheik is a pain yes, but even sheiks edgeguard is avoidable. Those others though are not really that hard to get around, especially marth as marth only can land one hit off-stage, which you either airdodge through or upB the excrement out of. You just need to anticipate what their options are and use the option you got that will punish it.

Im starting to think you might be trolling me actually, lol.

 

[BRLNK88]

Granting how easy and safe it is to land the moves you want to combo from, I cant really comprehend the problem, its like landing ftilt->fair with sheik. Whats the hard or unreliable part about bomb->dair for example?


Its in no way slow if you compare to other characters, sheik is a pain yes, but even sheiks edgeguard is avoidable. Those others though are not really that hard to get around, especially marth as marth only can land one hit off-stage, which you either airdodge through or upB the excrement out of. You just need to anticipate what their options are and use the option you got that will punish it.

Im starting to think you might be trolling me actually, lol.

haha, are you really comparing bomb -> dair to Fox's usmash? It's not even close.
No, I'm not trolling you, there's a reason why Link is low tier, Bing's summary put it pretty well.
This game has been out for over a decade. If Link had any sort of untapped potential, it would have been tapped by now.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

haha, are you really comparing bomb -> dair to Fox's usmash? It's not even close.
No, I'm not trolling you, there's a reason why Link is low tier, Bing's summary put it pretty well.
This game has been out for over a decade. If Link had any sort of untapped potential, it would have been tapped by now.

If Taj can beat top fox mains with mewtwo, a good link main should be able to get. Im not comparing links way of killing with fox's, but if taj and axe can do that well with low tiers what the hell is stopping a link main from getting there? Its not the move in it self that does fox to a great killer(compare his usmash with pikachus), its the combination with speed that does it. Links killer moves are different, they are good cause of the safety you have when you are trying to land them, if you want to play it really safe you go for killing with fair, nair or uair at 140%+, lol.

Links problems arent in killing, combo-potential or recovery, thats not what makes him low tier. His problems are that he cant get cheap kills, he have no equivalent of shine gimps, he is easy to combo and slow. I dont like the attitude that "since he's low tier, everything is bad with him", thats just plain wrong. Link has his strong points too, exactly as all characters in this game, including pichu.

This blind negativity is killing any kind of metagame development, I know my characters not the best in the game, Im beyond that, now lets try to actually understand what he CAN do instead of trying to make it seem like he can't do anything.

Your post is consisting of fallacy arguments btw.

EDIT: some grammar errors

 

[Goast]

I dunno I look at a lot of the classic link players and they actually played the character. Germ Deva Skler ... etc. They used basic fundamentals solid technical skill and played aggressively. Now their style was different from other characters obviously because they took advantage of the projectile game.

But be honest... aside from like J666 and IE how many links you see Lcanceling and dashdancing etc... I blew some peoples mind when they saw me doing that and holding my own against a few LEGIT sheiks. Everyone thought I was one of the best links though I'm still garb.

It's natural to play link with a limited strategy but that doesn't mean he's completely limited. We need to spend more time practing tech chasing, spacing, wave landing going into training mode. Mindgames etc... It can be done you just need the drive and right mindset.

I'm not gonna say link is better or worse than anyone.


BTW I love rocking the cursed white link

 

[BRLNK88]

If Taj can beat top fox mains with mewtwo, a good link main should be able to get. Im not comparing links way of killing with fox's, but if taj and axe can do that well with low tiers what the hell is stopping a link main from getting there? Its not the move in it self that does fox to a great killer(compare his usmash with pikachus), its the combination with speed that does it. Links killer moves are different, they are good cause of the safety you have when you are trying to land them, if you want to play it really safe you go for killing with fair, nair or uair at 140%+, lol.

Links problems arent in killing, combo-potential or recovery, thats not what makes him low tier. His problems are that he cant get cheap kills, he have no equivalent of shine gimps, he is easy to combo and slow. I dont like the attitude that "since he's low tier, everything is bad with him", thats just plain wrong. Link has his strong points too, exactly as all characters in this game, including pichu.

This blind negativity is killing any kind of metagame development, I know my characters not the best in the game, Im beyond that, now lets try to actually understand what he CAN do instead of trying to make it seem like he can't do anything.

Your post is consisting of fallacy arguments btw.

EDIT: some grammar errors

Are you really comparing Taj to any of the top Link mains?
Taj is just plain SKILLED. Yes, he has a nasty mewtwo, but even in his best placing at a major, he got there with MARTH. He beat Mango with Marth, and ultimately couldn't do a thing to Armada with Mewtwo.
Have you seen M2K's Mewtwo or Roy? It has nothing to do with how good Mewtwo or Roy are, M2K is just very skilled.
I've watched Sethlon play on several occasions, his Roy is fantastic. But he plays Sonic in Project M, a completely different style of character. He's good because he's skilled and experienced, and Roy just so happens to be his best character in Melee. Roy is still a bad character.
It's the same as with Armada's YL. YL didn't beat Hbox, Armada did. None of the top YL mains could do what he does to Hbox.
And when did I say "everything is bad with him"? Of course not. I'll reiterate what Bing said earlier (can't help but notice you haven't gone after him). He has options, but half the cast has BETTER options.
And since the ability to get cheap kills is the standard for good killing potential in Melee, yes, he has problems killing that most of the high and top tiers don't have.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

What is hindering a link main from becoming equally skilled? And why did you dodge axe(pun unintended)? Your argument also makes a very inconsistent logic, you say that it was the player that won the match, not the character, yet your thesis AFAIK is that it is the character which is the hindrance and skill doesn't affect it enough.

Armada couldn't win against Hbox without YLink, he have said it himself. As the Swedish smash community is pretty close, I also dare to say I know the whole Armada YLink vs Hbox Puff situation a lot better than you, Its actually Armada who taught me to bomb->dair. Not that this is a valid argument, but I just want you to drop the whole lecturing part and you haven't really come with that much(any?) valid arguments either.

 

[DuckPimp]

Marth vs Link:
Yes, Marth in general is better than Link, but only in singles. In doubles, Link is a freaking Soraka wrapped up in heaps of Taric with a side of Singed. You going to kill my Fox? Taunt and cancel it with your returning boomerang as it whacks the back of their head. He never dies, never lets his teammate die, and spins right around, baby, right around, dead or alive.
Marth is just kinda awkward.

yo bro that was hella ramble

 

[J.Shadows]

Wanna play friendlys with Link Mains at apex so you guys can teach me cool stuff. Also it's all about red link outfit

-J666

 

[Skler]

I'm a little confused about people saying it's just skill and that a Link main will do better if they don't play Link. I can confirm that is not how it works.

There are a select few matchups (and they are largely playstyle dependent) where I will do better with not-Link than I would with Link. This isn't because of a lack of practice with not-Link, it is because I am pretty generally bad with not-Link when compared to Link. Link's moveset let me develop a play style that works for me. Link isn't just "worse Fox", he is a completely different character with completely different things he can do.

The entire thing about options and better options is false. Link has options that other characters straight up do not have. Nobody else in the game has the boomerang, or even a boomerang equivalent. Link puts out a hitbox that lingers and he can control where it goes. Boomerang slingshotting is fucking awesome and something nobody else can do. The bomb is also very unique, but Peach has turnips that are similar (though they don't explode for extra hitboxes, making them easier to swat). Link has 3 projectiles, each one doing something different (the boomerang returns, the bomb explodes, the arrow makes you lose), and he is probably the best character for battlefield preparation. Link with a boomerang in the air and a bomb in hand is in a very strong position.

Some characters do have moves that are straight up better than Link's equivalent, like Marth's fair compared to Link's fair, or Marth's ftilt to Link's ftilt, or most of Marth's generic attacks compared to most of Link's generic attacks, but Link still has totally unique options.

Link's main problem is he does not have a safe answer to certain solutions like all the top tier characters have. Fox and Falco have a "this beats everything you can do in a shield" option in their shines, so they can be super aggressive and bank on their moveset to prevent it from being punished. Peach has huge priority for her defensive game and float canceling when she needs to approach. Sheik has her entire moveset being really, really strong. Marth has great range and fast moves to make use of it. Jigglypuff has the bair.

Link doesn't have an obvious strength anywhere, giving him no go-to strategy that he can apply to beat things. He has good range on some moves, but those are all slow. He has high priority on some moves, but not THAT high. He has projectiles, but they're slow and can't be canceled.

Link also lacks reliable combos on some characters, which is part of the problem. Even if he does use the right option, he doesn't get rewarded as much as others.



Link has a janky move called the spin attack that allows him to get the occasional stupid low percent kill. You can sort of combo into the jank at times, but not anywhere near consistently.

If you say Marth has a better recovery than Link you're crazy. Marth can't survive half the edgeguards Link can, and has the only recovery in the game that can be defeated by light shielding. Jigglypuff has a hard time edgeguarding Link, that's how crazy cool he is.

Edit: You need to go Zora Tunic all the time, just in case you get sent to Termina.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I like to think that link is supposed to rack damage, not by true comboing but just keeping them in the air above him until they are in range for a kill. Link got uair and dash attack once they are above and a good amount of launchers to get them there mainly utilt, bombs and dsmash.

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

I'd love to play at Apex, J666, and anyone else who's going. Want to learn/improve as much as I can. :3

 

[BRLNK88]

What is hindering a link main from becoming equally skilled? And why did you dodge axe(pun unintended)? Your argument also makes a very inconsistent logic, you say that it was the player that won the match, not the character, yet your thesis AFAIK is that it is the character which is the hindrance and skill doesn't affect it enough.

Armada couldn't win against Hbox without YLink, he have said it himself. As the Swedish smash community is pretty close, I also dare to say I know the whole Armada YLink vs Hbox Puff situation a lot better than you, Its actually Armada who taught me to bomb->dair. Not that this is a valid argument, but I just want you to drop the whole lecturing part and you haven't really come with that much(any?) valid arguments either.

Pikachu is not a bad character, and Axe, like Taj, is just one player. No other Pika has had NEARLY the kind of success that he has.
And it doesn't matter if Armada won with YL, YL is still a bad (albeit very fun) character.
I honestly have no idea why you keep saying my arguments aren't valid, you're not even pointing them out.
If you're so confident Link can be played well at a high level, show me one Link player that got a good placing at a major tournament (at least top 5).
My advice to aspiring Link players would be if you don't care about winning, go ahead and main Link. If you do care, figure out a better character that you're good with, or play a different game.

 

[J.Shadows]

I'd love to play at Apex, J666, and anyone else who's going. Want to learn/improve as much as I can. :3

Ok cool I think we're gonna have name tags I'll have my eyes peeled

 

[Bigglestheman]

I heard being positive is a great mindset for a Link main.

 

[Goast]

No other Pika has had NEARLY the kind of success that he has.

Anther

And it doesn't matter if Armada won with YL, YL is still a bad (albeit very fun) character.
I honestly have no idea why you keep saying my arguments aren't valid, you're not even pointing them out.

Pointed out. YL is a bad. YL wins world championship due to good match knowlege and smart play.

I thinks this is where the validity comes in.

If you're so confident Link can be played well at a high level, show me one Link player that got a good placing at a major tournament (at least top 5).

Mango?
Well that doesn't count for obvious reasons he didn't place top 5 and he didn't go 100% link... although there is something to be learned in his match with kage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5ZE-HxVBE
I could also mention Pats house he did loose to axe's pikachu but he won the tourney and went quite a few games a link
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=255468

My advice to aspiring Link players would be if you don't care about winning, go ahead and main Link. If you do care, figure out a better character that you're good with, or play a different game.

My advice is if all you care about is winning it'll never happen. Play to win but more importantly play to have fun and let the tier*****'s John about character flaws.

 

[BRLNK88]

Anther
Pointed out. YL is a bad. YL wins world championship due to good match knowlege and smart play.
I thinks this is where the invalidness comes in.
Mango?
Well that doesn't count for obvious reasons he didn't place top 5 and he didn't go 100% link... although there is something to be learned in his match with kage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5ZE-HxVBE
I could also mention Pats house he did loose to axe's pikachu but he won the tourney and went quite a few games a link
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=255468
My advice is if all you care about is winning it'll never happen. Play to win but more importantly play to have fun and let the tier*****'s John about character flaws.

Anther is no where near as good as Axe, nor does he do well at majors.
YL win championships because the opponent is Hungrybox, and the person playing YL is Armada. I can't see D20, Sora or Chudat winning an hour's worth of set time. That stuff with YL only works against a top Puff if you have the patience of a saint, and godly spacing and reaction time the way Armada does.
Yes, Mango does have a good Link, but as you said, it doesn't count. And his win over Kage was a bit of a fluke, Kage wasn't ready for his Link. I don't think he could win a set over Kage with Link honestly, nor are we likely to ever see it.
It is important to have fun seeing as its a game, but if you put it as a priority over winning, you greatly decrease your odds. You think Mango is really interested in winning when he goes Falcon against PP rather than a spacie? No, he wants to have fun, but he loses for it.
Who the hell even came up with the term "Johns" anyways? To me, "John" will always be slang for "toilet" or a male prostitute, not "excuses".

 

[J.Shadows]

Dude Link ***** I'm gonna tap mofos with him at Apex

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Pikachu is not a bad character, and Axe, like Taj, is just one player. No other Pika has had NEARLY the kind of success that he has.
And it doesn't matter if Armada won with YL, YL is still a bad (albeit very fun) character.
I honestly have no idea why you keep saying my arguments aren't valid, you're not even pointing them out.

I say it becuase you do it. You choose what facts are important depending on your view instead of choosing view depending on the facts. Why doesnt it matter that Armada won with YL? He didnt do it once. Why is tournament result not important when it doesnt support your point and really important when it does? Why can some events be ignored, while others must be considered? Pikachu were below link on the tier list before axe showed what you could do with the character. There certainly were untapped potential there, why can't the same happen with link?

If you're so confident Link can be played well at a high level, show me one Link player that got a good placing at a major tournament (at least top 5).
My advice to aspiring Link players would be if you don't care about winning, go ahead and main Link. If you do care, figure out a better character that you're good with, or play a different game.

Lack of example is not the same as not doable. Here is a link to the awesome xkcd that demonstrates the fault in this logic: http://www.xkcd.com/1122/

EDIT:

Who the hell even came up with the term "Johns" anyways? To me, "John" will always be slang for "toilet" or a male prostitute, not "excuses".

Ah, that actually makes sense.

 

[Skler]

Pikachu is not a bad character, and Axe, like Taj, is just one player. No other Pika has had NEARLY the kind of success that he has.
And it doesn't matter if Armada won with YL, YL is still a bad (albeit very fun) character.
I honestly have no idea why you keep saying my arguments aren't valid, you're not even pointing them out.
If you're so confident Link can be played well at a high level, show me one Link player that got a good placing at a major tournament (at least top 5).
My advice to aspiring Link players would be if you don't care about winning, go ahead and main Link. If you do care, figure out a better character that you're good with, or play a different game.

If top 5 is what a good placing is you have very high standards. That being said, Azen in the early days used Link semi-frequently and routinely got top 5. Then again, Azen played everybody.

Your arguments hinge on the idea that certain characters can't be played at a certain level. When Armada wins against one of the best players in the world as Young Link you just say "Armada is really good and the opponent was Hbox, so it doesn't count." Nobody plays just one character anymore, all the top players (except Hbox?) pick based on the situation.

Just because Link isn't a great choice against Fox or Sheik doesn't mean he isn't viable, it means you should avoid picking him against Fox and Sheik (which still aren't unwinnable).

Nobody is saying somebody will win a national by going straight Link, but that Link is viable enough to stand a chance in certain matchups (protip: Try using him against Marth, Peach or Jiggypuff) at a very high level of play. The thing about this game is that player skill matters a hell of a lot more than character select. Link may not be a good pick in certain matchups (and is probably never the optimal pick), but he isn't going to make you lose.

Also wtf? I'm pretty sure Mango would stand a chance against Kage as Link. Dorf vs Link isn't even bad, it's pretty even. Kage is just really good.

Edit: I think Johns came from a person named John who would always complain about factors that weren't himself causing him to lose.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Say whaaaat, you can play more than one character?!?!!! WOOT!!!111onee11!!1

I love Link vs Puff, its my favorite matchup.

EDIT: added a '1'

 

[Bing]

Legit Speaking, Anther is good. But he is no where near Axe. The closest Link main to Axe... probably J666 or IE. Outside of them, there aren't any good Link's. Also, you can pretty much forget about Mango's Link, he doesn't use him anymore for starters(well, rarely). Also, Mango used Link against Kage at a tournament awhile ago(Like ROM 3?) he won the first game as Link and won the second game as Marth(Or Vice Versa).

To the comment comparing the potential of characters like Pikachu to Link. This is just plain dumb. Honestly. Yes, we will continue to discover new things about characters, but the one thing most people fail to reailze with this is that unfortunately, no matter you discover, Link will still have some blarring flaws. Like how incredibly slow he is, the terrible start up time/lag on his attacks. There are so many flaws that simple gimmicks just can't fix. This argument is pointless.

 

[BRLNK88]

I say it becuase you do it. You choose what facts are important depending on your view instead of choosing view depending on the facts. Why doesnt it matter that Armada won with YL? He didnt do it once. Why is tournament result not important when it doesnt support your point and really important when it does? Why can some events be ignored, while others must be considered? Pikachu were below link on the tier list before axe showed what you could do with the character. There certainly were untapped potential there, why can't the same happen with link?
Ah, that actually makes sense.

Once again, Bing put it exactly the way I would (and you still haven't replied to him).
And to go off an earlier point, Pikachu has a way to get cheap kills that Link doesn't, TAIL SPIKE.
Next to usmash/usmash-thunder, tail spike is Axe's top method of getting kills. On top of that, Pika has speed to rival Fox, unlike Link who's slow and sluggish.
The closest thing Link has to that is the last part of spin attack while next to an edge, which only really affects characters with predictable recoveries in the first place.
Fox and Falco can completely avoid it by sweetspotting recoveries, but they're subject to a tail spike every time they're sent off stage. Even nair gimp doesn't compare to tail spike.
Germ is honestly the only Link that made a significant impact in overall tourney results, and even then, he's no where near Axe.

Honestly dude, we can't seem to come to a consensus, why don't we just agree to disagree? In fact, if a Link player makes Bracket at the next Apex or Genesis, I might concede my point of view.

 

[Goast]

Legit Speaking, Anther is good. But he is no where near Axe.

I've never played either one so I won't argue who's better, but this really reminds me of Dashiz vs Dr Peepee... My point is simply anther still did exceptionally well with pikachu as well. Seing how this is a link board it doesn't benefit to dispute the 2 players.

Also, you can pretty much forget about Mango's Link, he doesn't use him anymore for starters(well, rarely). Also, Mango used Link against Kage at a tournament awhile ago(Like ROM 3?) he won the first game as Link and won the second game as Marth(Or Vice Versa).

That's not a good reason at all to dismiss link. The proof is in the pudding. Kage played this match better than many good players. He just got beat. I'm not debating whether mango is a legit link (which is why I made the disclaimer) but I'm saying if a good player picks a character learns the character and takes time he can do wonders. This shouldn't be the exception. This should be a standard to strive to be the best. Not strive to be okay considering my tools.

To the comment comparing the potential of characters like Pikachu to Link. This is just plain dumb. Honestly. Yes, we will continue to discover new things about characters, but the one thing most people fail to reailze with this is that unfortunately, no matter you discover, Link will still have some blarring flaws. Like how incredibly slow he is, the terrible start up time/lag on his attacks. There are so many flaws that simple gimmicks just can't fix. This argument is pointless.

I agree very much. But it's important to remember no character is perfect. fox vs Marth on FD for example. Sheik vs puff is not fantastic either. Even metaknight on brawl is week against diddy. but that's okay... the idea is to exploit your opponents weakeness. If a character has a flaw he can be beatened, if a character has a strength he can prevail. If a character has more or less of the too he'll have a harder/easier time and therefore bears more/less responsibility of applying more pressure to create opportunities. Doesn't matter if you're a noob or pro.

Anther is no where near as good as Axe, nor does he do well at majors.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Smasher:Anther
I would read up on a bit of history before making claims like that.

That stuff with YL only works against a top Puff if you have the patience of a saint, and godly spacing and reaction time the way Armada does.

So is armada your god or something lol? Dude when someone raises the bar don't make it a ceiling... make it a challenge otherwise you'll be mediocre at everything (or second best if that's all you care about if I may recall your statement about picking a better character to win). He is a human being... he worked hard figured it out. That's what champions do. Don't know what else to tell ya bud.

Yes, Mango does have a good Link, but as you said, it doesn't count. And his win over Kage was a bit of a fluke, Kage wasn't ready for his Link.

So everytime a player beats me because I wasn't ready for him to play as good as he did with a character it was a fluke and therefore shouldn't count?
AWESOME I'm technically undefeated lol

I don't think he could win a set over Kage with Link honestly, nor are we likely to ever see it.

Well he won that match so I see less doubt

It is important to have fun seeing as its a game, but if you put it as a priority over winning, you greatly decrease your odds. You think Mango is really interested in winning when he goes Falcon against PP rather than a spacie? No, he wants to have fun, but he loses for it.

Well he beat S2J's falcon with falcon and he came very close to winning against dr peepee until he made major technical errors. Maybe it's possible to have fun winning. And as a semi-professional chessplayer, who has personally spoken about this topic with M2k and Vanz I can safely say if you don't like playing the character you won't win. Why do you think Taj has a pocket mewtwo or sol has a pocket bowser or even leffen has a pocket yoshi.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Once again, Bing put it exactly the way I would (and you still haven't replied to him).
And to go off an earlier point, Pikachu has a way to get cheap kills that Link doesn't, TAIL SPIKE.
Next to usmash/usmash-thunder, tail spike is Axe's top method of getting kills. On top of that, Pika has speed to rival Fox, unlike Link who's slow and sluggish.
The closest thing Link has to that is the last part of spin attack while next to an edge, which only really affects characters with predictable recoveries in the first place.
Fox and Falco can completely avoid it by sweetspotting recoveries, but they're subject to a tail spike every time they're sent off stage. Even nair gimp doesn't compare to tail spike.
Germ is honestly the only Link that made a significant impact in overall tourney results, and even then, he's no where near Axe.

Honestly dude, we can't seem to come to a consensus, why don't we just agree to disagree? In fact, if a Link player makes Bracket at the next Apex or Genesis, I might concede my point of view.

I dont like the negativity you spread around the character, if there is any potential in link you make the chances of someone getting something done with him smaller by saying its impossible.

And sorry to say it, I really dont care what YOU or any one else actually thinks(no real offense meant, just want to make it clear). If you think link sucks balls and there is no way around it, do so, but please keep it to yourself, its very unconstructive to just say its impossible and what I want to accomplish is a constructive discussion. If this means I need to learn the whole link forum logical fallacies then so be it. If it might help me improve I will do it.

But since you brought it up, links edgeguard is actually kinda good, not great but gets the job done more often than not. I like ledge stalling and then timing a nair, exploiting that invincibility. I also love the ftilt in matchups where it has applications (e.g. doc, mario, ganon, CF). I do also think that slip-off hookshot might actually be useful against fox and falcos side-b as well as DKs and bowsers recoveries.

 

[Goast]

Okay guys for me... New chapter let's get back to project S-tier Link

How often do players use links walk of stage up-b in competitive play
I real haven't tried it as an edgegaurd in actually matchup because sometimes he walks off too fast and tornadoes downward to his death.

Also I'm curious how players use links moonwalk in competitive play. I really want to incorporate it

Lastly double jump pivot arrows. I must be missing something cause this seems awesome for screwing with aggressive foxes in the air.


Also I'm interested in J666's opinion. I'll have to get videos of my own play, but I've been watching a lot of Deva's Link vids lately and find my self playing my link very similar fox. Shff->nairs/fairs lots of dashdancing and staying close to the ground. This has been very comfortable for me and my link has improved esp. against sheik. Is this even an acceptable way of playing him though. I use lot's of boomerangs in my DD's & wavedashes when they are spaced

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I could do the run-off UpB really consistent before, the only situation where I see more reward than risk using it is vs falco when he uses sideB. Its mainly because you cover yourself to avoid the meteor hit which would otherwise change momentum of the match in the best case scenario. Other than that it actually feels like its a saving move for team battles than anything else. I have found myself edgehogged too many times using it. I rarely do it for edgeguarding nowadays, but when I do it I instantly follow it up with a ledgehop nair.

 

[BRLNK88]

So is armada your god or something lol? Dude when someone raises the bar don't make it a ceiling... make it a challenge otherwise you'll be mediocre at everything (or second best if that's all you care about if I may recall your statement about picking a better character to win). He is a human being... he worked hard figured it out. That's what champions do. Don't know what else to tell ya bud.

*sigh* blind optimism

So everytime a player beats me because I wasn't ready for him to play as good as he did with a character it was a fluke and therefore shouldn't count?
AWESOME I'm technically undefeated lol

dude... wut? You're putting words in my mouth. When did I say "everytime"?

I dont like the negativity you spread around the character, if there is any potential in link you make the chances of someone getting something done with him smaller by saying its impossible.

And sorry to say it, I really dont care what YOU or any one else actually thinks(no real offense meant, just want to make it clear). If you think link sucks balls and there is no way around it, do so, but please keep it to yourself, its very unconstructive to just say its impossible and what I want to accomplish is a constructive discussion. If this means I need to learn the whole link forum logical fallacies then so be it. If it might help me improve I will do it.

Sorry, but I'm free to say whatever I want about the character, its my OPINION.
Just as its your opinion that Link has untapped potential.
And nothing is impossible, but the mathematical likelihood of something can be so small that it may as well be impossible.
You can keep trying to be the best with Link, no one's stopping you, I'm just expressing my view that you may be wasting your time, particularly when you can count the number of Link players that have actually done something significant on two hands.
PM Link has already done more in a major tourney than Melee Link has (yes, PM has had some fairly large tourneys).
Hell, if PM didn't exist, I *might* still be trying to make it work, but now that I have a better alternative, there's no reason to.

I don't know if you've tried PM Link, seeing as there's currently no PAL release, but if you did you might change your mind.
He's only going to get better once they get his grapple fixed to be like Melee, and every element of the physics engine to be like Melee.

 

[Goast]

I could do the run-off UpB really consistent before, the only situation where I see more reward than risk using it is vs falco when he uses sideB. Its mainly because you cover yourself to avoid the meteor hit which would otherwise change momentum of the match in the best case scenario. Other than that it actually feels like its a saving move for team battles than anything else. I have found myself edgehogged too many times using it. I rarely do it for edgeguarding nowadays, but when I do it I instantly follow it up with a ledgehop nair.

Was there every any framedata on this move? I's like to know about the hitbox. I guess I just want an excuse to start using it just because it's flashy

 

[J.Shadows]

Okay guys for me... New chapter let's get back to project S-tier Link

How often do players use links walk of stage up-b in competitive play
I real haven't tried it as an edgegaurd in actually matchup because sometimes he walks off too fast and tornadoes downward to his death.

Also I'm curious how players use links moonwalk in competitive play. I really want to incorporate it

Lastly double jump pivot arrows. I must be missing something cause this seems awesome for screwing with aggressive foxes in the air.


Also I'm interested in J666's opinion. I'll have to get videos of my own play, but I've been watching a lot of Deva's Link vids lately and find my self playing my link very similar fox. Shff->nairs/fairs lots of dashdancing and staying close to the ground. This has been very comfortable for me and my link has improved esp. against sheik. Is this even an acceptable way of playing him though. I use lot's of boomerangs in my DD's & wavedashes when they are spaced

Idk how much my opinion matters but I can give it to you. Just let me know exactly what you need my opinion about.

 

[Problem2]

Okay guys for me... New chapter let's get back to project S-tier Link

How often do players use links walk of stage up-b in competitive play
I real haven't tried it as an edgegaurd in actually matchup because sometimes he walks off too fast and tornadoes downward to his death.

I apologize. It's been a bit since I've played Melee, let alone experimented with Link stuff, but let me give it a shot. From what I remember about the properties of doing the spin attack ledge hog, I would think it is only useful vs C.Falcon and Ganon. This is untested, since I rarely use these moves anyways, but it sounds like a good idea if you know that they are trying to grab the ledge. In almost any other situation where I want to guard the ledge, I fall off the stage and n-air because that has good priority.

Also I'm curious how players use links moonwalk in competitive play. I really want to incorporate it

They really don't. Link's moonwalk is not a very fast movement option and does not provide any sort of unique opportunities. Keep trying to innovate though!

Lastly double jump pivot arrows. I must be missing something cause this seems awesome for screwing with aggressive foxes in the air.

I think I've seen a Link or two do this before. I don't remember what the reward is for getting to hit Fox/Falco with it, but I do recognize that is an easily punishable option if read. I'll have to check it out. It sounds interesting anyways.

Also I'm interested in J666's opinion. I'll have to get videos of my own play, but I've been watching a lot of Deva's Link vids lately and find my self playing my link very similar fox. Shff->nairs/fairs lots of dashdancing and staying close to the ground. This has been very comfortable for me and my link has improved esp. against sheik. Is this even an acceptable way of playing him though. I use lot's of boomerangs in my DD's & wavedashes when they are spaced

I think it really depends on the match-up. Link maybe slow at getting into the air and has slow movement in general, but he packs quite a lot of priority in his aerials. You need be aware of which characters pack more priority than you or can outspace you in the air game (Marth and Ganon comes to my mind for this). Vs. Fox, from what you say you're doing, it sounds like you're on the right track to me.