• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Deva

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,704
Location
Spokane, Wa
No not any top pro sonics, but there's quite a few people in the state that know how to use the character, and ive played a few good ones when ive gone out of state also. Plus you can just look at the mechanics of the move. Look at the hit box of link's nair compared to the hit boxes on many of sonic's high speed apporaches. It out ranges or outprioritizes many of them, so depending on how you use it with short hops and full hops and they way you use it, its a very effective defensive move. Link's jabs also have a lot more range than many of sonics approaches so its a good move to use upon landing with nair when you become vulnerable.

aib's still down. . .im being forced to post on swf, and im actually glad to see some of the changes that have been going on here.
 

Lawz.

The Original Deadpool Fan
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
1,056
Location
Pennsylvania
NNID
Lawz_Fearless
Something that I thought of since I know red ryu as a luc player, and this is something that works really well on him.

Should sonic happen to grab link at the edge. How effective is an air release at the ledge against link?
Air release is just another option that Sonic can use to gimp Link because it sets him in a bad position. In other words, use it if you want to gimp him and you want to mix it up when you grab him at the edge.
 

Praxis

Smash Hero
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,165
Location
Spokane, WA
No not any top pro sonics, but there's quite a few people in the state that know how to use the character,
Wait, who?

No one in EWA...does Chip secretly play Sonic, or someone in Western WA?


@ KID, Deva's been out of state many times.
 

Purple

Hi guys!
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
10,383
Location
Duluth, Georgia
I'm going to write some basic information I've seen on this match-up

Pros to Link

-Has a gimp on Sonic (grabbing after Sonic Up-B), while it requires timing, it's practically guaranteed once pulled off, and with Link's grab being so long, this is great for Link.

-Link still has a good spacing game, Sonic cannot out camp Link.

-Link has more kill moves than Sonic late-game (assuming that Link only uses smash attacks sparingly, and instead relies on bombs, arrows, and tether). A link player should come into any match-up with extremely good DI (that's all we have), and eventually, Sonic's methods of killing will be deteriorated, well before Link's second stock. if Link stays away from getting gimped, Link can easily make comebacks in this match-up

-Link can use n-air to trade or flat out beat many of Sonic's attacks.

-Link seems to have the advantage in both forms of fighting, his tilts outrange sonic's, while his camping game is clearly superior.

Cons to Link

-Sonic's game is all about gimping; with link's recovery being as bad as it is. This mix of traits is a horrible mix-up for Link.

-Sonic's grab game is also very deadly to link.

- Link doesn't have many options to stop a character from fighting under him, Sonic can use this to their advantage and juggle.

I want to get a Sonic player's opinion on this, but I would say this match-up can go Link's way if they can stay away from getting gimped.

I'm not sure how great the advantage is, but it's more likely Sonic's advantage. Gimping aside, Sonic's ground game generally wrecks Link. A generalization of Sonic's game is to bait moves and punish them. Considering a decent number of Link's move have enough lag on them, that's not an impossible task for Sonic. As far as dealing with projectiles, arrows aren't much of a threat, so you have to worry about Boomerangs, Bombs, and Zair. Sonic's traction makes perfect shielding boomerangs a snap most of the time. Bombs are a littler trickier, but still workable. Last I recalled, getting in on Zair was easy when Spinshot was involved. Same as with Marth, once you get inside all of his range and stay on him, it's tough for him to breath. You eventually push him to the edge or he's been trying to camp hard enough that he's already on the edge.

From there, Sonic's solid gimping game takes advantage. Now from the other side, if Sonic spends all his time Spin Dashing (which he shouldn't) then a combination of bombs and zair can shut him down. It's common to see Link stay high so he can get bombs out, so if he hits Spin Dash with one, he can slow Sonic down for a bit and retaliate.

A good way to view it is, Sonic is going to try and get inside by dashing in an p shielding to get in a grab or ftilt. Or maybe if he thinks he can get you off guard at mid-range. Spin Dash -> Fair/Uair (aka he's trying to get in quickly and push you back). So if he gets hit with a bomb from above, he's already inside your attack range, but he can't mobilize :he has to reset. That's when you put pressure on.

I can't call myself an expert on the MU, but from what experience I have and the way I size things up, this is how I look at it. It's actually tougher to play than I make it seem, but I've never played like a typical Sonic, so that's probably a contributor.
Here are some kind words from a (old, mains marth now) Sonic main. I will implement his words into my pros and cons above.
 

Dark 3nergy

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
6,389
Location
Baltimore, MD
NNID
Gambit.7
3DS FC
4313-0369-9934
Switch FC
SW-5498-4166-5599
Doesnt this apply to every single one of links matchups?
yea but in order to do that link needs to spam[arrows,bombs,possibly boomergang]/create traps[""]/outrange[zair, jabs, possbily some tilts,aerials] his opponent
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,911
Location
Colorado
I'm going to write some basic information I've seen on this match-up

Pros to Link

-Has a gimp on Sonic (grabbing after Sonic Up-B), while it requires timing, it's practically guaranteed once pulled off, and with Link's grab being so long, this is great for Link.

I want to get a Sonic player's opinion on this, but I would say this match-up can go Link's way if they can stay away from getting gimped.
Link can only grab opponents out of the air with the bubble on his hand:

ZSS might put this to good use but Zair tether type grabs have little anti-air range.

Once Link's sideways off stage he has little chance for survival.
 

Purple

Hi guys!
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
10,383
Location
Duluth, Georgia
Ouch, that's pretty unfortunate =/m, however that is something that can still be implimented if the sonic player messes up correct?
 

Purple

Hi guys!
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
10,383
Location
Duluth, Georgia
out of curiosity, most of us discussed in the link v ness match-up, why can't we use that as a basis to make our own summary?
 

SpaghettiWeegee

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
91
I propose we do either Ness, Fox, or Toon Link.

Reason for Ness: See above.

Reason for Fox: Trust me, we need a good MU for Fox.

Reason for Toon Link: I have a lot of experience against a pretty decent TL player, so we could knock this MU out pretty quickly.
 

Metro Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
705
Location
Mississippi
My brother plays Ness all of the time. I have some experience versus Fox, but not enough to have answers for that MU. :p


Ness has a few things to watch out for:

Sparkles (his f-air) when you are at low health, he can easily combo with them after a dthrow or just spam you with them. Just avoid them the best you can, I air-dodge after the throws and it helps a lot.

His B-air as a kill move and a damage move. He can use 2 of these in a row before he hits the ground, and that can be just as devastating as the sparkles combo when you are at low percentages.

His N-air is amazing, if he just runs off the stage when you are trying to recover, he can bank you into the stage and spike you. You just have to be smart in how you recovery, but that is a really strong option versus Link.

His U-air kills very soon, I guess if you are in the air at like 100%, you should be weary of this aerial. I am pretty sure your D-air will own his face, but that move is like DK's u-air, so be aware of its beastliness.

His D-air can gimp you, but I think after you get used to playing Ness, he is going to get a lot less of these, just be aware that he can combo with it, and possibly kill you like Ganon's d-air will. I think this is his least threatening aerial, and possibly the most threatening aerial.

His F-smash sucks, if he does this just block and F-smash him. He might reflect an arrow, but w/e.

His Dsmash and Upsmash are both situational. I think they are more useful than his F-smash, but they are only really good when he can not hit you with anything else. They have some combo strings, but I wouldn't be worried about these.

His fire can lead into a dthrow-> sparkles combo, or a b-throw kill so be worried about that.
DO NOT hang on the ledge to long and let the pikafire own you. If it does hit you, you have lost your second jump, Up-B until you get to the ledge again, otherwise you are dead.

His aerial pika fire, is also kind of meh. I sure it has some uses, but my brother never really uses it, unless he is trying for the same combo as the ground pika fire leads into.

His absorb move and pika flash are pretty useless, who cares.

His Pika Thunder is very gimpable. Any of our projectiles can kill the ball, we can jump into the ball, we can jump into him if we are low and watch him die, we can just hit him during that recovery, we can gale him away from the ball, etc. Ness' recovery might punish us, but it is his most vulnerable moment, so I would definitely say punish the **** out of him.

His Throws.

His F-throw is a set distance, so he will never kill you with it, he will just throw you off the stage with it and go for a gimp.

His B-throw will kill us at 120ish... You can DI it some, might want to practice that, but it will kill us. It also gets a weird meteor spike throw every now and then, and he get a horizontal throw off, if this happens you might just lose a stock. One of those tough **** moments.

His D-throw leads to some sparkle combos, be ready to airdodge, and also after he sparkles, be weary of a bair. I generally air-dodge until I hit the ground, then block.

The U-throw, I imagine it can be used for u-air strings, Pika Thunder mind games, or used as a Vert kill move. I do not see this move used very often, or at all by my brother or my other 2 friends that play as Ness.

The headbutts are annoying, and I am not sure about his grab-releases versus Link.

His Dash attack is pretty decent, it has a fatty hitbox on it, so be careful about that, it lauches you up, so be ready for more sparkles after those sparkles hit you.


I think this MU is slightly in Ness' favor at around 55:45. He has a good close and aerial game, which tends to give Link some problems. He is also small, so I have some issues approaching with the ZAIR.

He does have a bad recovery compared to other small characters and has some issues getting to us.

55:45 Ness' Favor
 

SpaghettiWeegee

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
91
I actually have a lot less Ness experience than I thought. Still, let's see what I've got...

For the most part, as Metro Knight stated, Ness owns Link in the air, so your main objective should be keeping him out of the air and on the ground, where you can overpower him. Bombs are typically my primary way of doing this; jumping over Ness and bombing down on him will, in theory, make it too dangerous for him to get into the air. This tactic also opens up room for plenty of awesome, really effective combos. Don't spam it too much, however, as it does get rather predictable. You can also keep Ness on the ground with subtler methods; sometimes, if you simply refuse to get into the air, Ness will have no choice but to confront you on the ground.

A lot of this matchup is about staying away from Ness's kill moves. Other than his aerials, his grabs are pretty potent, and can KO early-ish, so stay far enough away to avoid them. I'm talking standard distancing stuff, like Zair, Gale Boomerang, Arrow Spam, the works. Do this, and he'll be unable to KO you.

Let's face it; if he can't KO you, Ness is going to try and gimp you in some way, however, being unfamiliar with Ness's gimp game, I can't really help out all that much...

And that's all I got. But seriously, if you prevent him from using his kill moves and avoid being gimped, this MU's a sinch.

50:50, arguably.
 

Scabe

Successful Businessman
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
3,510
Location
Canberra, Australia
The Ness I played liked to do this trick where you stand on the edge, and do PK thunder mind games and then make it hit himself. I fell for it twice in one game because, I'd try and avoid the thunder and then land on stage and then the PK Thunder 2 would hit. If you find yourself in that sort of situation go for the ledge instead.

Link get's a guaranteed Grab release into D-smash on Ness. It's not much at low percents, but if you save your Dsmash for kill percents and you get a grab, then do the grab release to Dsmash.

And yeah as Metro was saying, that sparkle stuff is real annoying. I somehow get hit by it when I'm shielding, I think I let go of it too soon.

I think FD is a really good place to take Ness.

Anyways, I was watching my matches back from 09 against Sonic and Ness, and man was I a cool player. I miss the way I use to play :cry:,

I'll see if I can upload those for you guys. Pretty outdated and we're not like Legan or FOW, but I think it'll be good to watch for matchup study.

 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,911
Location
Colorado
Ness out-reaches us in the air, except Zair and Uair (when Link's under). Zair's good because Ness likes air approaches. Ground grab release guarantees Link a dsmash. Link wants to be far and spam or grounded. Ness wants Link in the air.
Nair stops PK thunder's head if he chases you with it. Ness can't cancel it like Snake's missile so sometimes you can fast fall airdodge>land>Fsmash or Dsmash.
 

Scabe

Successful Businessman
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
3,510
Location
Canberra, Australia
I don't know if Red Ryu ever summons the other character boards when we're discussing a matchup. Also where is Ryu? :cry:

Anyways I'll try and convince some Ness to come maybe after I upload the vids.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
Oh my, I should have checked back here more recently lol sorry about that. Go ahead and discuss Ness if people wish to, seeing as people already want to.

I'll get the Ness boards over here.

Ness is a gogo.
 

SpaghettiWeegee

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
91
55:4 5 ness
Link can easly gimp Ness because of Ness's crappy recovery. That, plus all of the other things Link has going for him (better spam game, better distancing tools, etc) I'd say that 50:50's more accurate.
 

_clinton

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,189
Any Links want to have some games to get some experience in the match-up?
 

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
7,419
Location
Osaka, Japan
NNID
SSBYink
Hey Links, remember me? C: I got RR's message.

I'm just going to do some nice copy pasta, because really we had this discussion not too long ago with you fine Link players. This is probably the BEST summary I got from a Link player, and I hope it gives some insight:

KirinBlaze said:
Link can camp Ness pretty well. The lack of 'energy' projectiles like Falco's laser and such make his PSI magnet pretty useless in the sense that Link doesn't have to be afraid or really think about how he dishes out his projectiles. Link outranges Ness pretty well with Zair, Jabs, Fsmash and other things. Link has a GUARENTEED Dsmash from a Grab Release on Ness, Dsmash Kills. This mean Link has a reliable and realistic way to always KO Ness. Link is also heavy and has some amazing DI, so KOing him won't come until the Mid 100's or so with a Bthrow or something. Link isn't going to try and combo or follow up on Ness. He's going to camp you until he's ready for that Grab>Dsmash KO. All of Link's projectiles, with the exception of the Bomb since it hits Ness himself, can cancel out the PK Thunderbolt as well as hit Ness himself during the loop. The GaleRang is pretty dangerous since it has a push effect. Link can space it so the push effect keeps you offstage or even pushes out of the loop similar to Mario's FLUDD. Link can do a good job of keeping Ness away from him offstage if he's coming from above or mid level with projectiles.

Ness can really hurt Link if he can get inside. Fair is a great spacing tool and will keep Link on his toes. Juggling Link isn't too difficult but you need to watch out for his Nair and ZDrop Bombs. Link's will ALWAYS have bombs in hand. These things can break or discourage immediate follow ups that may seem possible. Ness in the same way keeps Link from following up with anything because of his great Nair. Ness's Nair can also stop Link from jab canceling up close, though a good Link will usually shield after the second jab and shield grab your Nair which sets up for the Dsmash from release. Ness has the advantage offstage I'd say. If Link is forced to recover low then you have a free Dair that you should NEVER miss on him. I'd say Ness racks damage quicker in terms of close range fighthing but Link can give Ness a hell of a lot of trouble with his camp game and getting inside. Both characters have reliable KO set ups with their grabs but Link's comes a bit earlier, he's also lighter then Link which means Link should be getting the KO's first, with the exception of Ness's PKT2. PKFire is great on Link, granted it can be DI'd out of just like anything else, it can set up a few things for Ness like a Smash, another PKFire, a grab, etc.

If I had to say I honestly believe the MU would 55:45 Ness, argueable for 50:50. Both characters have reliable ways to KO each other. Link can keep Ness out rather well, and Ness can gimp Link easily offstage.
I'm pretty agreeable with the statements above. Nair is like, the one move you guys probably won't like very much (aside from throws, the b-throw or maybe dair and fair) because it gets rid of some of the projectiles and catches bombs. Fair walling is a little annoying as well, but I'd just say you should try to keep up constant spam.

Don't let Ness grab you. Ness' can set up a lot of stuff, and it's easy with Ness' throws to get you offstage. I'm willing to bet that's what most Ness' would try to do, too. And no, it's really NOT that easy to gimp good Ness players, so don't go for gale boomerang offstage. Instead, try to throw a bomb at the PKT1 or shoot an arrow.

My last thing I guess is that really...do NOT try to beat PKT2, it never ends well...hope I helped you guys.
 

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
7,419
Location
Osaka, Japan
NNID
SSBYink
Does anything in the game actually beat PK Thunder 2? Just out of curiosity what happens when two PK Thunder 2's collide?

I'd imagine something like this would happen :p http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TbJbfeFq9M
Hahahaha, okay I'm not sure but, there are moves that clank with PKT2. For Link, I'm not sure, it's kind of risky.

If you were Marth you could counter it (Ike too).
 

_clinton

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,189
Yeah I doubt my precious Dair could beat it :cry:, but I'll test some things out.
Well it wouldn't beat it at the start of the move, what with the invulnerably frames and such, but after those frames are up "jabs" can stop it (although risky because it can still kill even when weak, just not 40% kills and more like 110% kills).
 

Wafflez

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
439
Location
Bellevue, Washington
Grab release dat ****.

Ness (and Lucas) has a 10 frame disadvantage out of grounded grab release, against all characters.

Link has 2 options at this time.

Buffered jab (comes out in 4 frames)
Dsmash (comes out in 6 frames)

Guarenteed hit.

Link spams. Ness must approach because Link's spam game > Ness.
Also, Link needs to stay onstage for obvious reasons.

Figure out the match-up ratio on your own, just thought I'd say some stuff.



Also, just wanna say. Gale guarding a Ness who's trying to PKT2 recover is the funniest thing in the world.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,911
Location
Colorado
Dair beats PKT2 if the hitboxes are positioned above Ness and it's not at the very start. If Ness is PKT2ing into the ground, Link can grab with his full grab range. Then grab release Dsmash.
 

milesg2g

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
2,335
Location
EA, Georgia
I honestly think the MU should be 60:40 Ness


I like both characters. But Ness is my main and it's pretty clear to see where he strives in this MU.
Yes Links Nair could just easil stop pkt. But link is so slow stopping it would be predictable to begin w/. On top of that Links recovery isn't that good either. Any link that runs out in the air w/ a Ness while recovering is pretty much done for. Link would have to play extremely close to scare a Ness w/ his recovery. Which is not likely to happen because Link really likes being far and using his really good range he has over Ness. Also, Ness' Nair could be used against Link as far as him recovering easily. It has so much Knock back and Ness has so much priority in the air that Link would be too far off from the stage to get a decent recovery.

Ness' Nair stops most projectiles. Ness if played right can stop most of TL's Projectile set ups w/ just his Nair lol.
 

Metro Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
705
Location
Mississippi
Winnar's Ness versus Hyro's TL is a good example of how Ness can get nasty. I would just throw/shoot projectiles at Ness while he is recovering. If you luck out and hit the ball, you get a freebie, and if you projectile connects with his face during PKT2, then he is going to get half the distance. So, I definitely mess with Ness when he is off the stage, but yea do not force anything, unless you can be VERY VERY sure, you aren't going to die.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom